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Messages - wyvern

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586
DFRPG / Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« on: June 07, 2010, 04:23:21 PM »
Addendum to what follows: I'm not sure I'd allow this in a game I was running; while this example isn't broken, one could easily use the same method to construct a ritual that *is* totally overpowered; it sets a bad precedent.  (No, I won't stat out why I think it's a bad precedent.  Suffice to say that free use of weapon:10+ for a scene is not something I want to have any part of, even if it's costing the caster some serious consequence slots.)
However, if your GM is willing to let you, this is how I'd go about making (and using) such a ritual.

Fist-Focused Chi:
2 shifts for a power 2 attack
4 shifts to upgrade duration from "a few moments" to "15 minutes" (See the time chart in the reference section at the back of the book).

This assumes that 15 minutes is about one scene; I must admit I find it a bit odd that the time chart is mostly in real time units, while everything else is exchange / scene based.

Now, how to cast this.  As per page 261, "about a minute" is the smallest amount of time you can get away with for preparing a ritual, even if the actual casting part only takes an exchange or three.  However, since this particular ritual is well over your lore skill, you're going to have to cut some corners if you need to actually toss it off that quickly.

Probably your best option for high-speed casting would be spending a fate point to invoke your high concept, and accepting a minor consequence.  (For example, a minor mental consequence of "Too focused" that could be compelled to make you miss details or speak in one word sentences.)

If you've got a bit more time ("a mini-scene", which I'd interpret as maybe five to ten minutes), you could replace one of those prices with a skill check to apply an appropriate aspect - probably fists, here, and an aspect relating to various warm-up exercises / katas.  You'd still need to pay either a fate point or a minor consequence, but could get away with just one of 'em.

If you've somehow got enough time beforehand for two mini-scenes, you could try to make a second skill check - perhaps discipline for a "focused mind" aspect - and then get your effect with neither fate point nor consequence.

If you want to cast this at the beginning of every day, I'd allow that as just something you do... but it would only be of any use if you get into a fight within 15 minutes of leaving your home; not exactly the most useful option.

And if you want a version that lasts all day, that's another five steps up the time chart... hm... Well, four steps up is "an afternoon", which is listed as more than "a few hours"... Let's assume that time span is good enough to run from a bit after dawn until dusk; that should be sufficient.  That'd be a complexity 10 ritual; you could spend a fate point, take a minor consequence, and apply both of the skill checks listed above, taking maybe a bit less than half an hour to get ready for a day you know will be full of combat.
Of course, spending a fate point a day isn't likely to be sustainable, so this is something you'd use only when you were sure you'd need it.

You might also want to look into getting a focus item for your rituals; see page 278.  Two item slots could give you an item that gives +2 lore for purposes of ritual preparation; that'd cut down the prices listed above by a substantial margin, effectively replacing a single skill check, fate point, or minor consequence.

(Edit) Looking over the duration rules, it seems that a ritual built like this should only give you *one* free weapon:2 attack, sometime within the next fifteen minutes.  I'm guessing Wordmaker's two shifts per level of weapon might be a bit more balanced for something that allows multiple attacks - in other words, instead of making a single attack, you're "conjuring" up an actual "weapon". That'd effectively add two to the complexity of the above listed rituals, which neatly cancels with the addition of a ritual focus item.  Oh, well.(/Edit)

587
DFRPG / Re: How Many Scions Can You Make?
« on: June 03, 2010, 08:42:32 PM »
Well, at one extreme, you could have a character who hasn't come into their power yet.  High Concept: Unwitting Heir to (insert name of dragon here).  Trouble: What you don't know *can* hurt you.  Powers?  Marked by Power at -1, and the option to, much like a changeling, buy appropriate powers further down the line.

The next question, though, is what *kind* of dragon.
Consider a scion of an oriental dragon, for example.  You'd be looking at Draconic Magic (-4 refresh - essentially a sponsored magic variant focusing on water and life magic), Human Guise, Wings (-1 refresh, and note that there are no actual wings here, you can just fly when in dragon form), probably all four physical powers at inhuman level (we'll assume you can find +3 worth of catch on your toughness / recovery powers, so that's another -5 refresh), and a +1 one-time bonus for item of power: a Pearl of Wisdom*, which powers your flight and spellcasting (and probably your inhuman recovery, too).  Total cost is 9 refresh, though there are certainly plausible variations, like dropping inhuman speed and making the pearl of wisdom just a focus item for your spellcasting instead of an out-and-out item of power.

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* A full oriental dragon can grow their own pearl of wisdom if theirs gets lost, destroyed, or even just given away as a gift.  A half dragon might be able to do the same, given sufficient time... but it'd be at least on par with recovering from an extreme consequence.

588
DFRPG / Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« on: June 02, 2010, 04:34:03 PM »
EldritchFire: Yes, I'm not arguing on the time spent actually *casting* the ritual.  Just pointing out that there *is* preparation time required, even if we're advised to not spend player time dealing with that for small rituals.  See the comments on time on page 261; I wouldn't allow thaumaturgy without at least a minute in preparation time, even if you manage to have all the right materials on your person already.  (As far as that goes, we're advised to not spend player time on casting, either, unless there's some dramatic pressure - like zombies climbing up the hill towards your ritual site.)

Multiple taggable aspects is pretty clever, though, and I don't see any reason that couldn't be done with evocation if you've got enough power - though that'd get expensive, since you'd need to pay for multiple aspects (three shifts each) and enough duration to have a hope of using them all.

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CMEast:
The reason you stop at 6 shifts for a ritual is that, if it's over your lore, the rules are quite clear that you need to spend one or more scenes on prep work, and it's absolutely not something you can just toss off.  (As opposed to something that you probably shouldn't be allowed to toss off, but that the rules aren't quite as clear on.)  Now, if you're preparing for a fight in a siege situation, and you know when that fight's going to be, and you've got weeks to prepare for it... there's nothing stopping you from having a fifteen shift ritual running.  Wizards are scary.

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How does a sponsor limit your potential to be a full wizard?  You're paying refresh to be able to do something a normal wizard couldn't do, but, if you've got the refresh to spend, there's nothing stopping you from picking up "real" wizardry later.  Even if you start with just sponsored magic and The Sight, well, that represents your non-standard approach to spellcasting, and when you've got two refresh to spend, you can pick up thaumaturgy or evocation.
(Yes, two refresh.  Remember the cost break for sponsored magic: Even if your GM is playing it entirely by the book, with sponsored magic costing you four refresh, that goes down by one for each of thaumaturgy and evocation you pick up - essentially saying "I'm a normal wizard, now, but with this extra kind of magic I can do".  Note that I wouldn't stack the normal cost break with the half price for limited scope I suggested above - two refresh to be able to use your magic in a way that nobody else can is probably about right.)

In fact, for a ten refresh game, you could fit in full wizard + sponsored magic right at the start.

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And on claws upgrading to channeling: We're probably going to have to agree to disagree here.  The two are inherently different - as we've discovered from various attempts in this thread to make claws as an evocation.
Evocation costs mental stress.  Takes an action to activate.  Can be blocked by being in a grapple.  Can be counterspelled, blocked by a circle, or otherwise magically shut down by someone who knows what they're doing.
Claws, by comparison, does not cost you anything.  No mental stress.  No action needed to activate - it's just there when you need it.  It can't be counterspelled; it can't be shut down unless you choose to do that (as, say, a severe mental consequence or the like).

If anything, I'd see claws as, in this case, an upgrade from channeling; your initial fumbling attempts cost you mental stress on every hit and left you with splitting headaches after a hard fight.  After some practice, you've got it down to a rote - something you can do, something that costs you, but you understand what the price is and know where your limits are.  And eventually, when you've absolutely mastered the technique, it's simply internalized - no more stress, no more hesitation or complex and disruptable calling of power.  Sure, that costs you an extra point of refresh, but it's still worth it - that's that much less mental damage you're going to take in an average fight; that's that much more you can use the power.  With basic evocation, you've got maybe four to six hits before you have to rest (or take consequences); with claws you can take a few minutes and punch through a wall, or fight several opponents back to back without getting a migraine out of it.

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I expect you probably will end up struggling with this when trying to recreate other creature features or base physical powers; that's actually why I suggested sponsored magic, because it will handily cover all of those for you (as long as they're within the theme of your school of martial arts magic - for example, a combat style based on flowing movement and never letting the opponent get a solid hit in would probably not offer toughness powers as an option).  And, again, spending the refresh to actually buy the power in question will be a stronger option than replicating it through spellcasting - no action to activate, no cost in mental stress, no way for someone to catch you with your spells down, etc.  (The action to activate is a big one, actually - it may not seem like much when you're looking at just claws, but consider - say you take three exchanges to cast claws, and strength, and speed... by this point the fight might be over already, especially if you're facing guys with guns!)

The alternative here is to start using your enchanted item slots.  There's a pretty good discussion in this thread about using enchanted items for "always on" effects (and why "always on" in in-character terms can still have limited uses per game session).

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That all said, there is one analogy you can apply to possibly justify using an evocation to empower your fists with weapon 1 for a scene: Consider the guy who brings a concealed knife to a fight.  He spends an action to draw (or maybe does it as a supplemental action, depending on how that concealed sheath is set up) - and poof!  Weapon 1, for the scene, or until someone takes the dagger away (counters the spell).  Were I a GM, I'd be rather wary of that train of thought... but I'd probably allow it as a rote that was tied to a focus item, thus replicating the physical constraints of the guy with the concealed knife.  Also, this doesn't scale; you can't bring a concealed suit of full plate armor to a fight!

589
DFRPG / Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« on: June 02, 2010, 04:22:57 AM »
EldritchFire: I don't think rituals work like that.  Even if the actual casting only takes one or two exchanges, and you've got the materials readily available, you've still got to set it up; this isn't something you can do on the fly in combat.  If you're preparing for a fight you know you're walking into?  Sure.  But just on the fly?  That's the domain of evocation.  (Footnote: this is my interpretation of the rules.  The actual prep requirements for rituals at or below your lore are not clearly specified in the books - the only thing that is specified is that we should assume the character has the materials at least readily available, and that we shouldn't take up player time running prep scenes.  Your mileage may vary, and if your GM is cool with you running rituals on the fly like that, go for it.)

No, what we need here is the effect of thaumaturgy, but with the speed and methods of an evocation... Hello there, sponsored magic!

"But," you say, "I don't have a sponsor!"  Really?  Are you sure about that?  Who taught you martial arts, and why did they work so hard at teaching you mental focus and discipline?  What connections do they have to, say, [insert name of some ancient tibetan monastery here]?  These sound like interesting plot hooks to me...

Alternatively, we could go with sponsorless sponsored magic - there's even an example in the book like that: Kemmlerian Necromancy.  Find the right source of knowledge, and it's yours.  (Though whether or not you can rack up debt with it is definitely questionable...) 

Were I GMing for such a character, I'd allow a two point sponsored magic - it's at half cost since it only applies to evocations, and only to the trapping of granting ritual levels of effectiveness to spells that exemplify your school of martial arts (be sure to come up with a catchy name for it!)  That puts you starting at a base cost of six refresh - channeling, and ritual, and that two point "sponsored magic".
Your GM may vary, and, as this is by this point well outside the letter of the rules, there's no guarantee you'll be able to get such a thing approved.  You can always fall back on a default four point sponsored magic, and try to broaden your power base later on when you've got the refresh to spend on evocation or thaumaturgy.

That all said, I'd agree with others that the actual *best* way to do this is with the claws power - you pay the refresh price once, and then it's something your character can just *do* - no mental stress, no chance of backlash or fallout - essentially a rote that's become so ingrained in your mental "muscle memory" that you don't even have to think about it anymore.

590
DFRPG / Re: Sidhe Knights and Sponsored Magic
« on: June 02, 2010, 01:00:01 AM »
So, I had this whole long post written up on how the faerie knights still have free will - which means compels and fate points have some value, and how you could if need be treat debt as a purely out of character game mechanic if you needed to... and then I realized: the faerie courts work on favors earned and favors owed.  Fate points and debt just give you a good way to keep score.

In other words, I'd go with option c.  You can still invoke aspects via debt, as normal, and the GM can turn around and spend that debt to throw compels at your "Owned by the Faerie Queens" aspect without giving you a fate point for accepting.

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