ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on December 22, 2020, 04:58:35 PM
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New microfiction on the site. (https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/microfiction-6-the-good-people)
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Just read it, got interrupted by a phone call.. Molly identifies with Harry more than Mab I think, and like him she won't take any crap off of Mab, and I think Mab likes that. Molly isn't ready to totally give up her humanity either.. I think Kringle likes that.. Need to reread, but those are my first impressions.
Oh, and she refers to Harry's pixie army as the "royal guard."
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Molly is helping to build Harry's power base through this move as well.
Merry Christmas from the Wizard of Chicago is on the tag of all of the gifts.
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Any thoughts on what Kringle meant by “Uriel’s boundary line”?
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Any thoughts on what Kringle meant by “Uriel’s boundary line”?
Connection to them having lunch together once a month? Or is a week? Can't remember, perhaps the boundary between mortal and immortal?
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Ok, just my opinion, but that was a pretty awesome story. Tells of Molly wanting her humanity back, knowing she isn't who she was, and making the best of what she has. All while telling Mab to go F herself, that she chose Molly and Molly was who she was going to get, not some obedient lab dog.
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Ok, just my opinion, but that was a pretty awesome story. Tells of Molly wanting her humanity back, knowing she isn't who she was, and making the best of what she has. All while telling Mab to go F herself, that she chose Molly and Molly was who she was going to get, not some obedient lab dog.
Yeah, she is taking her ques from Harry and Mab actually likes it, I think. I also think her run was her gift to Harry.
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Any thoughts on what Kringle meant by “Uriel’s boundary line”?
Uriel’s protection of the carpenters home.
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Yeah, she is taking her ques from Harry and Mab actually likes it, I think. I also think her run was her gift to Harry.
But in a sense it is also a gift to Kringle because it was done in the right spirit.
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I feel bad for Molly, she needs to call for Winter to survive while at the same time wanting to keep being human, that's holding on to two trains going the opposite way & pulled apart.
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I feel bad for Molly, she needs to call for Winter to survive while at the same time wanting to keep being human, that's holding on to two trains going the opposite way & pulled apart.
Well, she had a couple of great teachers in how to do that. Her dad and Harry. So if anyone can do it, it will be her.
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Well, she had a couple of great teachers in how to do that. Her dad and Harry. So if anyone can do it, it will be her.
not exactly, she can't escape Winter, and Mab wanted her to be prepared to take her role as Queen, that means she'll become total Fae. Michael & Harry don't have any experience to teach her that.
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not exactly, she can't escape Winter, and Mab wanted her to be prepared to take her role as Queen, that means she'll become total Fae. Michael & Harry don't have any experience to teach her that.
I don't think that is what Mab means, yes, eventually Molly may become a total Fae to become Queen. However that doesn't mean she has to be devoid of compassion, that is the "Summer" Mab said she was acting like. Mab has rid herself of all compassion, that is what she thinks is needed, but both Harry and Molly think she is wrong.
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A cold, smooth voice came from the darkness in a patch of shadows papa’s tasteful lighting scheme had missed. “The person you used to be is what holds you back.”
Queen Mab stepped out of the darkness and faced me. She was wearing thick white fur robes. Her hair was a silver cloud around her, sparkling with crystals of frost. Her eyes were a pale, icy blue that was nearly white.
“Very eighties,” I said. “Did you use hairspray?”
Mab’s tone turned a little colder. “I summoned wind and ice.”
“Oh,” I said. “Sweet. I’ll have to remember.”
Mab glowered at me and then at my family’s home. “This is what keeps you from being truly ready.”
“Ready for what?” I chirped.
She gave me an icy look and shook her head. “Let the mortal die. She will not be of use to you.”
that's exactly what she meant, it's pretty clear.
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not exactly, she can't escape Winter, and Mab wanted her to be prepared to take her role as Queen, that means she'll become total Fae. Michael & Harry don't have any experience to teach her that.
Well, she can escape Winter. We know it can be done and survive. She know she can escape it too, but not in any way that keeps her above ground.
And for her and her mortal life, it may be that Mab is telling her this to push her into being a better WL and keep her humanity. We saw how Maeve turned out when she just let her humanity go. But maybe it's because she knows how much Molly loves Harry and wants her to lose her humanity to keep them both in her service. Or maybe it's just that Mab needs Molly as ruthless and cut throat as herself because of what is coming down the road and thinks that her humanity will hold her back, when we all know it's what makes her and Harry stronger.
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Well, she can escape Winter. We know it can be done and survive. She know she can escape it too, but not in any way that keeps her above ground.
And for her and her mortal life, it may be that Mab is telling her this to push her into being a better WL and keep her humanity. We saw how Maeve turned out when she just let her humanity go. But maybe it's because she knows how much Molly loves Harry and wants her to lose her humanity to keep them both in her service. Or maybe it's just that Mab needs Molly as ruthless and cut throat as herself because of what is coming down the road and thinks that her humanity will hold her back, when we all know it's what makes her and Harry stronger.
can escape Winter & survive, then not in any way that keeps her above the ground? you completely lost me
Mab was pushing Molly so she'd be prepared to be a Queen, that's her (or maybe more accurately Mother's) idea of Fae Court power hierarchy, Lady has to be a competent successor to wield Winter with all of its power & duties whenever needed in order to maintain the balance; it's been major theme of several books now. She even explicitly told Harry to kill Molly if she fell in Battle of Bean because Molly wasn't fully prepared, that's Jim vehicle to deliver the current situation to readers: Molly isn't fully Fae yet despite not being fully human too or otherwise her magic wouldn't allow her to use electronics. She was telling Molly drop the humanity & embrace Winter fully, rip the bandaid quickly & accept the reality, because according to her clinging to humanity is futile & won't end well. Regardless if she's correct (she did have extensive experience there), Mab haven't been anything but straight forward about the job descriptions & its expectations, not like she can lie about them if she tried.
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can escape Winter & survive, then not in any way that keeps her above the ground? you completely lost me
Mab was pushing Molly so she'd be prepared to be a Queen, that's her (or maybe more accurately Mother's) idea of Fae Court power hierarchy, Lady has to be a competent successor to wield Winter with all of its power & duties whenever needed in order to maintain the balance; it's been major theme of several books now. She even explicitly told Harry to kill Molly if she fell in Battle of Bean because Molly wasn't fully prepared, that's Jim vehicle to deliver the current situation to readers: Molly isn't fully Fae yet despite not being fully human too or otherwise her magic wouldn't allow her to use electronics. She was telling Molly drop the humanity & embrace Winter fully, rip the bandaid quickly & accept the reality, because according to her clinging to humanity is futile & won't end well. Regardless if she's correct (she did have extensive experience there), Mab haven't been anything but straight forward about the job descriptions & its expectations, not like she can lie about them if she tried.
I said we know that there is a way for Molly to lose the mantle and survive. Molly know that she can lose the mantle, but as far as she knows, she will have to die to do it. That was the reference of keeping above ground.
And as for lies, just look at the end of GS. She technically lies to Harry because she thinks she can control him, deceive him. She could just as easily tell Molly to lose the humanity to be a better Queen because she knows that it will be a quick move to be more powerful. But she also knows her Knight and that her Lady is just like her Knight. So by telling her a partial truth, she may be pushing her to be a better Lady than her own daughter by being herself. Half truth with the fae are not lies, just not the whole truth. And yes, Molly becoming Queen so soon wouldn't be good for her. But Molly the Queen after getting a good hold of her abilities and keeping her humanity may be what Winter needs, and Mab may be jealous of that because she went through becoming Queen and not having time to master the balance as Lady.
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Well, she can escape Winter. We know it can be done and survive. She know she can escape it too, but not in any way that keeps her above ground.
And for her and her mortal life, it may be that Mab is telling her this to push her into being a better WL and keep her humanity. We saw how Maeve turned out when she just let her humanity go. But maybe it's because she knows how much Molly loves Harry and wants her to lose her humanity to keep them both in her service. Or maybe it's just that Mab needs Molly as ruthless and cut throat as herself because of what is coming down the road and thinks that her humanity will hold her back, when we all know it's what makes her and Harry stronger.
I do not think Maeve let her humanity go. All those mommy issues and so on they are not good but they are very human. Humanity is much more than just the good bits.
Mab has one vision about what a good winter queen should be but that is not the only vision possible. It might not even be the best one for this role. Kringle clearly approves of what Molly was doing and that is worth something. It shows that her path was not stupid.
And I do not think escape is the plan for Molly. This is important work. She wants to do it and to make the best of it. She might even have lunches with Uriel in future. Mab has her opinions but she is prepared to listen to others. She clearly thinks about what Molly tells her and let’s her find her way even if she expresses her strong opinions, she does not order her in this.
This is also about what mother summer said to Harry, about keeping the core of what you are. Maybe even about how the old mother summer could pension off.
Jim is shifting the rules here or telling us what usually happens can be much more complicated.
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I can't say I know what way Molly can leave her Winter mantle, can't tell which Lady quit her job & survived.
And as for lies, just look at the end of GS. She technically lies to Harry because she thinks she can control him, deceive him. She could just as easily tell Molly to lose the humanity to be a better Queen because she knows that it will be a quick move to be more powerful. But she also knows her Knight and that her Lady is just like her Knight.
If we're going with technicalities here, in the same Ghost Story's chapter Harry pointed out that technically Uriel manipulated him into a gambit with the risk of Harry losing his literal, actual, soul. So why do Mab gets labelled as Bad when she had been proven more forthcoming whenever she said something to Harry or Molly than Uriel, who won't even admit anything to Harry? When have she reneged on what she said she will do to/for Harry, even he remarked that Mab keeps her words.
So by telling her a partial truth, she may be pushing her to be a better Lady than her own daughter by being herself. Half truth with the fae are not lies, just not the whole truth. And yes, Molly becoming Queen so soon wouldn't be good for her. But Molly the Queen after getting a good hold of her abilities and keeping her humanity may be what Winter needs, and Mab may be jealous of that because she went through becoming Queen and not having time to master the balance as Lady.
nah I don't buy it, it sounds very much like conjecture to me, I mean unless there's more than twice of interactions/action and/or there are inconsistencies in the (behavioural) pattern, I don't make guesses on what a character might be up to; and for Mab this is very much her standard pattern, a consistent & repeated pattern, too. Is it possible? Yes of course anything is possible, after all Jim still considers her a villain, but there's nothing solid to back it up.
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that's exactly what she meant, it's pretty clear.
Yes, that is why she said Molly was acting summer like.. But both Molly and Harry disagree with her.
If we're going with technicalities here, in the same Ghost Story's chapter Harry pointed out that technically Uriel manipulated him into a gambit with the risk of Harry losing his literal, actual, soul. So why do Mab gets labelled as Bad when she had been proven more forthcoming whenever she said something to Harry or Molly than Uriel, who won't even admit anything to Harry? When have she reneged on what she said she will do to/for Harry, even he remarked that Mab keeps her words.
No, Uriel didn't manipulate Harry into the risk. He manipulated Mab into going along with the risk, because the only way to save Harry's soul, was to put it at risk. It was the only way to teach him the lesson he needed to learn.
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Yes, that is why she said Molly was acting summer like.. But both Molly and Harry disagree with her.
No, Uriel didn't manipulate Harry into the risk. He manipulated Mab into going along with the risk, because the only way to save Harry's soul, was to put it at risk. It was the only way to teach him the lesson he needed to learn.
It's tough luck for all the people who died without Harry in the gap between Changes and Skin Game because Uriel chose not to tell Harry when summoned after the whisper.
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Yes, that is why she said Molly was acting summer like.. But both Molly and Harry disagree with her.
No, Uriel didn't manipulate Harry into the risk. He manipulated Mab into going along with the risk, because the only way to save Harry's soul, was to put it at risk. It was the only way to teach him the lesson he needed to learn.
Uriel is too smart for that. He left the manipulation part to Murphy’s father.
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Of course they don't agree with her, they're not Fae, Molly isn't fully one yet, and it isn't like she can choose to be Summer vassal.
No, Uriel didn't manipulate Harry into the risk. He manipulated Mab into going along with the risk, because the only way to save Harry's soul, was to put it at risk. It was the only way to teach him the lesson he needed to learn.
Uh no, that's not what happened, Uriel manipulated Harry into thinking he's truly dead & he won't lose his soul when he went back, what Mab went through was the result of Harry tried to cheat her out of their deal.
“Look, kid, you’re stuck here. You aren’t going anywhere until we get this discrepancy sorted out.”
“Why not?”
“Because what comes after isn’t for people who are rubbernecking over their shoulders or bitching about how unfair they had it,” Jack said, his expression frank. “So, we sort out how you got screwed over. Then you get to move on to what’s next.”
I thought of being trapped in the hollow shell of the city outside and shuddered. “Okay. How do we fix it?”
“You go back,” Jack said. “And you catch the scum who did you.”
“Back?” I said. “Back to . . .”
“Earth, yeah,” Jack said. “Chicago.” He closed the folder and dropped it into his out-box. “You gotta find out who killed you.”
I arched an eyebrow at him. “You’re kidding.”
He stared at me, his expression as jovial as a mountain crag.
I rolled my eyes. “You want me to solve my own murder?”
He shrugged. “You want a job here instead, I can set you up.”
“Augh,” I said, shuddering again. “No.”
“Okay,” he said. “Any questions?”
“Uh,” I said. “What do you mean when you say you’re sending me back? I mean . . . back to my body or . . . ?”
“Nah,” he said. “Isn’t available. Isn’t how it works. You go back as you are.”
I frowned at him and then down at myself. “As a spirit,” I said.
He spread his hands, as if I had just comprehended some vast and weighty truth. “Don’t hang around for sunrise. Watch out for thresholds. You know the drill.”
“Yeah,” I said, disturbed. “But without my body . . .”
“Won’t have much magic. Most people can’t see you, hear you. Won’t be able to touch things.”
I stared at him. “How am I supposed to find anything out like that?” I asked.
Jack lifted both hands. “Kid, I don’t make the law. I make sure it gets observed.” He squinted at me. “Besides. I thought you were a detective.”
I clenched my jaw and glared at him. My glare isn’t bad, but he wasn’t impressed. I exhaled slowly and then said, “Solve my own murder.”
He nodded.
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Of course they don't agree with her, they're not Fae, Molly isn't fully one yet, and it isn't like she can choose to be Summer vassal.
Uh no, that's not what happened, Uriel manipulated Harry into thinking he's truly dead & he won't lose his soul when he went back, what Mab went through was the result of Harry tried to cheat her out of their deal.
Except that we later discover that Jack is not Uriel but Murphy’s father. Of course he manipulated Harry into helping his daughter. Uriel could have known that would happen but Uriel always maintains deniability and can always points to a free willed choice made by someone else.
Technically true of course but for all practical purposes Uriel did manipulate things with a light but very effective touch.
Also I don’t think Uriel seems that concerned about Molly being the winter lady.
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Except that we later discover that Jack is not Uriel but Murphy’s father. Of course he manipulated Harry into helping his daughter. Uriel could have known that would happen but Uriel always maintains deniability and can always points to a free willed choice made by someone else.
Technically true of course but for all practical purposes Uriel did manipulate things with a light but very effective touch.
Also I don’t think Uriel seems that concerned about Molly being the winter lady.
Yeah but as Uriel's the boss and Jack weren't living human nor he free to choose Heaven, Hell or Between, it's really peculiar how Jack just told him to go back, told him nothing about the real why (Charmichael said they're big on why), makes you wonder who came up with the plan & who approved it? Not Jack of course.
Yeah, not sure about Uriel thoughts about Molly, probably can't do anything about her
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But would it be the right thing to do for Molly to get out?
I mean, she is protecting reality and is, as far as we can tell, very good at it. And she is to some degree protecting humanity from the winter fae, if nothing else she is keeping the mantle from someone who would be far worse.
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Yeah but as Uriel's the boss and Jack weren't living human nor he free to choose Heaven, Hell or Between, it's really peculiar how Jack just told him to go back, told him nothing about the real why (Charmichael said they're big on why), makes you wonder who came up with the plan & who approved it? Not Jack of course.
Yeah, not sure about Uriel thoughts about Molly, probably can't do anything about her
I think Jack was free to choose. That is the whole idea of in between, he can go on to what is next later and before that he can help Uriel with some stuff and improve his soul a bit. It is Jacks soul without a body but he is as free to choose as Harry was. Uriel told Jack to pick up Harry and give him some explanation because Jack was far more free to tell Harry things than Uriel and Uriel got plausible deniability out of it. :
Uriel, bless his angelic heart, closed his eyes for a moment and took a deep, calming breath. “Collin . . .” he said, in a reproving, parental tone.
“I might have mentioned something about it,” Jack said. “Sure. Guy’s got a lot of friends. Friends are running around fighting monsters. I figure at least three of them are going to get hurt if he isn’t there to back them up. Seemed reasonable.”
“Collin,” Uriel said, his voice touched with an ocean of disappointment and a teaspoon of anger. “You lied.”
“I speculated,” Captain Jack replied. “I got him to do the right thing, didn’t I?”
“Collin, our purpose is to defend freedom—not to decide how it should be used.”
“Everything I told him was technically true, more or less, and I got the job done,” Jack said stubbornly. “Look, sir, if I were perfect, I wouldn’t be working here in the first place. Now, would I?”
And then he hung up. On speakerphone. On a freaking archangel.
The plan was Uriel but Jack decided to push it in the desired direction in a way Uriel would and probably could never have done. He wanted to help his daughter and that was more important. We have a theme here.
But maybe Uriel had an idea that that could happen and that is why Collin got the assignment.
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But would it be the right thing to do for Molly to get out?
I mean, she is protecting reality and is, as far as we can tell, very good at it. And she is to some degree protecting humanity from the winter fae, if nothing else she is keeping the mantle from someone who would be far worse.
Probably not unless you are so fixated upon saving your own soul that you forget anyone else.
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I think Jack was free to choose. That is the whole idea of in between, he can go on to what is next later and before that he can help Uriel with some stuff and improve his soul a bit. It is Jacks soul without a body but he is as free to choose as Harry was.
That really depends on whether suicide is a cardinal sin or not in Dresdenverse, Jim made it sounds they chose what they think should happened wrt religion & afterlife, and Catholics don't think they deserve anything but hell
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That really depends on whether suicide is a cardinal sin or not in Dresdenverse, Jim made it sounds they chose what they think should happened wrt religion & afterlife, and Catholics don't think they deserve anything but hell
But did he commit suicide? Not according to some woj I remember vaguely.
Nicodemus has committed enough cardinal sins to get straight to hell but the knights still try to save him. Uriel and others tell us that as long as you are alive and you have free will you can make choices and you are not definitively lost. You can still work to improve your soul.
Apparently that extend to bodiless wandering souls as long as they don’t go to what is next. Harry and Collin. Between seems to be set up for this goal. Uriel gives them the chance to make choices and Collin made use of that.
This is Jim’s world and he does not follow all Christianity’s dogmas. The impression I get is that you shape your soul with the free willed choices you make and that shaping is not completed until you die and go on to what is next and that is not Between.
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But did he commit suicide? Not according to some woj I remember vaguely.
Nicodemus has committed enough cardinal sins to get straight to hell but the knights still try to save him. Uriel and others tell us that as long as you are alive and you have free will you can make choices and you are not definitively lost. You can still work to improve your soul.
Apparently that extend to bodiless wandering souls as long as they don’t go to what is next. Harry and Collin. Between seems to be set up for this goal. Uriel gives them the chance to make choices and Collin made use of that.
This is Jim’s world and he does not follow all Christianity’s dogmas. The impression I get is that you shape your soul with the free willed choices you make and that shaping is not completed until you die and go on to what is next and that is not Between.
Murphy said she found him after he blew his head off, don't know about any WoJ
Yeah but Nicodemus being alive & completely in the realm of the living means he has full redemption option still on the table, Harry's body being kept alive meant he was in coma more or less --which led to not really dead--, but Jack was undoubtedly dead compared to them. It's possible he was offered to work for Uriel in Between instead of going straight to Hell like he believed he deserved to, which still doesn't really mean the redemption option was still on the table for him when he arrived there, or any suicide victims from Catholic's POV. So that goes back to what suicide means for catholic souls in Dresdenverse' afterlife situation.
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Harry never died in Ghost Story so it isn't about going to Hell. The part of the book where he talks to Eternal Silence and Inez is instructive. They represent Demonreach and Mab. Jim actually cribs "It"s a Wonderful Life".
If you take Changes at face value then Harry is evil. You don't kill or maim another Man's child to save your own. Ghost Story is about correcting that.
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Murphy said she found him after he blew his head off, don't know about any WoJ
Yeah but Nicodemus being alive & completely in the realm of the living means he has full redemption option still on the table, Harry's body being kept alive meant he was in coma more or less --which led to not really dead--, but Jack was undoubtedly dead compared to them. It's possible he was offered to work for Uriel in Between instead of going straight to Hell like he believed he deserved to, which still doesn't really mean the redemption option was still on the table for him when he arrived there, or any suicide victims from Catholic's POV. So that goes back to what suicide means for catholic souls in Dresdenverse' afterlife situation.
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/2011-transcripts-from-audiovideo-woj-sources/
Audience member: About Murphy’s dad and how he killed himself in the books…was that despair forced on him?
Jim: About Murphy’s dad and how he killed himself in the books…was that despair forced on him? (smirking) Who says he killed himself? (lots of audience reaction) You know, they just found him there and it, you know, looked like a suicide.
Another audience member: And the forums explode. (more reaction)
Jim: Oh, come on, I said this in like Kansas City and they had the YouTube video up like five minutes after I was finished talking.
But it is clearly shown that Collin Murphy in Ghost story makes choices, choices Uriel not always agrees with. He has free will and uses it. That means he can change his soul and Uriel gives him the chance to do so. The unavailability of the body is not that important after all you are a soul, you have a body. Also from Uriel's offer to Harry at the end of ghost story it seems that the people in between are people like Harry, Soul without body but not souls who are in what comes next because that is not revealed.
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Harry never died in Ghost Story so it isn't about going to Hell.
Harry died. His soul left his body. He just was not gone, the distinction is clearly made in the books.
The part of the book where he talks to Eternal Silence and Inez is instructive. They represent Demonreach and Mab. Jim actually cribs "It"s a Wonderful Life".
That is about returning to life. It is what Bob told him, dead can be reversible. But also about what Lash said, you have to die to understand certain things and now he did.
If you take Changes at face value then Harry is evil. You don't kill or maim another Man's child to save your own. Ghost Story is about correcting that.
It is mainly about the let the world burn mentality and what he did to Molly. Harry breaks himself about killing Susan but that was not the point, Susan wanted it and for good reasons. I do not think the killing of Susan was considered evil at all. There was not that much attention to it given in ghost story as a thing Harry had to learn about.
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https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/2011-transcripts-from-audiovideo-woj-sources/
But it is clearly shown that Collin Murphy in Ghost story makes choices, choices Uriel not always agrees with. He has free will and uses it. That means he can change his soul and Uriel gives him the chance to do so. The unavailability of the body is not that important after all you are a soul, you have a body. Also from Uriel's offer to Harry at the end of ghost story it seems that the people in between are people like Harry, Soul without body but not souls who are in what comes next because that is not revealed.
Thanks for the link. if Collin Murphy didn't committing suicide then the question about his soul going to hell for cardinal sin isn't relevant anymore. I never looked into Collin's history by WoJ or how loose the rules of christianity got adapted (aside from magic/supernatural aspects) btw, so my view was based only from what's written in the books & my vague recollection on what religious people there expected to find in afterlife (Hades' words, Charmichaels).
I don't disagree with what you described for souls in Between (that works for Uriel), but I do still wonder about religious souls with cardinal sins, like perhaps what would happen to those who committed patricide but didn't seek redemption before they died, from brief grepping can't find any canon on that subject in WoJ.
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Harry died. His soul left his body. He just was not gone, the distinction is clearly made in the books.
Clearly if he was a ghost he was dead, since ghosts aren't souls. However if his soul was wandering around, he wasn't dead. To the best of my knowledge in Cristian mythology only one man has been raised from the dead.
According to Wikipedia there are seven cardinal sins and suicide isn't one of them. Suicide is a mortal sin and condemns you to hell. Colin appears to be in purgatory.
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That really depends on whether suicide is a cardinal sin or not in Dresdenverse, Jim made it sounds they chose what they think should happened wrt religion & afterlife, and Catholics don't think they deserve anything but hell
I was told that they have modified that doctrine a bit, depending on whether or not the person was mentally ill or not at the time. Captain Jack is in sort of a purgatory, neither Heaven or Hell, perhaps the only choice he has is whether or not he wants to earn a ticket to Heaven by working for Uriel.
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Clearly if he was a ghost he was dead, since ghosts aren't souls. However if his soul was wandering around, he wasn't dead.
that is according to the definition of dead used by everyone with understanding in and outside the books from Mab and Lea to Jim.
Ghost story is pretty clear about it.
To the best of my knowledge in Cristian mythology only one man has been raised from the dead.
There is Lazarus and if memory not deceives me several other nameless ones. Besides Jim is not bound to Christian mythology alone.
Lea especially was quite clear:
“With significant capability,” Lea replied, stressing the phrase. “When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”
He had passed the threshold between life and dead. With other words he was dead.
According to Wikipedia there are seven cardinal sins and suicide isn't one of them. Suicide is a mortal sin and condemns you to hell. Colin appears to be in purgatory.
According to articles on the web I read the catholic stance on suicide softened somewhat lately. It is still wrong but depression and so on can be mitigating factors.
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Clearly if he was a ghost he was dead, since ghosts aren't souls. However if his soul was wandering around, he wasn't dead. To the best of my knowledge in Cristian mythology only one man has been raised from the dead.
According to Wikipedia there are seven cardinal sins and suicide isn't one of them. Suicide is a mortal sin and condemns you to hell. Colin appears to be in purgatory.
good point on the difference between cardinal (sins that lead to other sins) & mortal sins.
Somehow I'm under the impression that ghost & spirit are interchangeable in Dresdenverse, remnants or echo of lost souls wandering in the world because they couldn't move on, while soul is, well what Uriel said
I was told that they have modified that doctrine a bit, depending on whether or not the person was mentally ill or not at the time. Captain Jack is in sort of a purgatory, neither Heaven or Hell, perhaps the only choice he has is whether or not he wants to earn a ticket to Heaven by working for Uriel.
yeah i took a quick peek on the precise definition from catholic cathecism, based on morriswalters correction
In Roman Catholic moral theology, a mortal sin requires that all of the following conditions are met:
- Its subject matter must be grave. (The term "grave sin" is used at times to indicate grave matter, and at times to indicate mortal sin. But it always remains true that the following two conditions are requisite for mortal sin.)
- It must be committed with full knowledge (and awareness) of the sinful action and the gravity of the offense.
- It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.
so the 2nd point determines whether the act of sin committed is grave enough to be mortal or venial sin
As for Collin, I think he took the job under Uriel either because like Harry he needed to know what happened to him that led to his death, then decided that working for Uriel aligns/serves his ideals/purpose of vocation such as justice & family, or Uriel offered him the job because he was already closer to supernatural world than other humans when he worked in Special Division. Meaning he was righteous enough as a person to earn Uriel's respect
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This isn't my first rodeo where this topic is concerned. Lea is mistaken.
“Dead is a grey word,” Mab hissed. “Mortals fear it, and so they wish it to be black—and they have but few words to contain its reality. It escapes from such constraints. Death is a spectrum, not a line. And you, my knight, had not yet vanished into the utter darkness.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 575). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Here's what Jim really thinks. You ain't dead until your brain is. Which Jim uses in a microfiction he has the Archive to tell Kincaid not to take the head shot. Corpsetaker was never alive in the true sense, but she is in hell, so what the hell, I forgive her.
If I'm gonna be wrong about something I aver, I do it right. Ten people are raised from the dead in the Bible. Oh well.
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This isn't my first rodeo where this topic is concerned. Lea is mistaken.Here's what Jim really thinks. You ain't dead until your brain is. Which Jim uses in a microfiction he has the Archive to tell Kincaid not to take the head shot. Corpsetaker was never alive in the true sense, but she is in hell, so what the hell, I forgive her.
If I'm gonna be wrong about something I aver, I do it right. Ten people are raised from the dead in the Bible. Oh well.
Yup, the Archive knew what she was asking/demanding of Kincaid. And actually when you think about it, Kincaid knew as well, so he took Harry's money, but didn't kill him because the heart shot gave Harry a slim chance at life.
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This isn't my first rodeo where this topic is concerned. Lea is mistaken.Here's what Jim really thinks. You ain't dead until your brain is. Which Jim uses in a microfiction he has the Archive to tell Kincaid not to take the head shot. Corpsetaker was never alive in the true sense, but she is in hell, so what the hell, I forgive her.
If I'm gonna be wrong about something I aver, I do it right. Ten people are raised from the dead in the Bible. Oh well.
That was just convenient. Someone else’s body would have worked just as well as corpstaker tried to prove and Kemmler did. There is something significant with the threshold between life and dead.
But it is border territory here so maybe there is no true right or wrong but I think a definition like you came back so you were never dead robs the Dresden verse of its supernatural elements, proves lash and so many others who know better wrong and ignores the difference between dead and gone Bob introduced and Mab’s grey word.
Harry was dead but not yet gone
And yes resurrection was rather common in those days :-) And that were only those mentioned in the New Testament. They probably forgot to mention a few.
And Jim told us several times that Harry was dead and never denied it.
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You haven't heard an a definition of death sourced from me yet. These are all Jim's ideas. Death in the Dverse means absolutely nothing. It's the most aggravating thing in the books.
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That was just convenient. Someone else’s body would have worked just as well as corpstaker tried to prove and Kemmler did. There is something significant with the threshold between life and dead.
But it is border territory here so maybe there is no true right or wrong but I think a definition like you came back so you were never dead robs the Dresden verse of its supernatural elements, proves lash and so many others who know better wrong and ignores the difference between dead and gone Bob introduced and Mab’s grey word.
Harry was dead but not yet gone
And yes resurrection was rather common in those days :-) And that were only those mentioned in the New Testament. They probably forgot to mention a few.
And Jim told us several times that Harry was dead and never denied it.
For the Corpsetaker perhaps, but the previous owner of the body usually does die after she has taken it over.
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For the Corpsetaker perhaps, but the previous owner of the body usually does die after she has taken it over.
Not for Lucio who ended up in a different body but still lives.
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I like the way she wishes Mab merry Christmas :)
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Must be 2020, everyone on this thread is obsessed with death and suicide.
Instead rejoice! We know Mort Lindquist survived, and we have an idea how, he went all Bruce Lee on the Fomor’s ass.
Rejoice! We know Harry has activated the Castle’s hidden defences and his Gargoyles are standing guard (in a very Harry like fashion, unfortunately).
Rejoice! whilst the Mantle is changing Molly, she has unlocked previously unexplored potential in that Mantle due to the influence of her father.
Rejoice! Toot and his crowd appear to have got a promotion to “the Royal Guard” and now is probably taller than Murphy (and they realised beer and pizza go together much better than milk and pizza).
Rejoice! All Chicago’s orphans got presents from “The Wizard of Chicago” an orphan himself, all instigated by Harry in Battle Ground.
Rejoice! We got to see a MUCH better version of Rudolph (with neither red nor brown nose) redeeming that name somewhat.
Rejoice! We got a Microfiction.
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Not for Lucio who ended up in a different body but still lives.
Yeah, but the original owner of that body is no longer with us.
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Yeah, but the original owner of that body is no longer with us.
Sure but it shows that being alive and the state of your body of birth have nothing to do with each other. It is about possessing a body and being a soul.
Harry of course needed his own body because stealing someone else’s is not a good deed but he is a necromancer. He probably can do it.
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Steal Mirror Harry’s body, it is less shot up and stuff and only being held together with the Mantle.
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Steal Mirror Harry’s body, it is less shot up and stuff and only being held together with the Mantle.
Stealing Jim's plot?
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Steal Mirror Harry’s body, it is less shot up and stuff and only being held together with the Mantle.
Iirc According to woj Luccio had to deal with the side effects of Corpsetaker doing black magic in her new body, so that might not be a good idea.
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Must be 2020, everyone on this thread is obsessed with death and suicide.
Instead rejoice! We know Mort Lindquist survived, and we have an idea how, he went all Bruce Lee on the Fomor’s ass.
Rejoice! We know Harry has activated the Castle’s hidden defences and his Gargoyles are standing guard (in a very Harry like fashion, unfortunately).
Rejoice! whilst the Mantle is changing Molly, she has unlocked previously unexplored potential in that Mantle due to the influence of her father.
Rejoice! Toot and his crowd appear to have got a promotion to “the Royal Guard” and now is probably taller than Murphy (and they realised beer and pizza go together much better than milk and pizza).
Rejoice! All Chicago’s orphans got presents from “The Wizard of Chicago” an orphan himself, all instigated by Harry in Battle Ground.
Rejoice! We got to see a MUCH better version of Rudolph (with neither red nor brown nose) redeeming that name somewhat.
Rejoice! We got a Microfiction.
Exactly so! And as I personally have familiars who committed suicide (and I know I am not the only one here) I rather focus on the things to rejoice, that you mention, specially because suicide is in other books and not in this microfiction.
Now, a confession, I was VERY moved by the tag in the packages, I almost cry. I thought that was very, very sweet from Molly and something truly important for Harry. And yes, on the rational cold side, she is also growing Harry's influence, which is good for Winter, but we know she did it for love. And that is awesome!
And I repeat but it's important, Gargoyles! That is so perfect :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
Also, Marcone helped a lot of people. So even with the coin and with his own reasons, he is helping people. Harry will like that (and hate that), and I am sure that will be important in the eventual Marcone redemption (that I am sure will happen).
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up thread there is discussion about if Uri is manipulating Harry in GS. If you look at Ivy and her "not in the head"; Odin with planning as foresight and many others. It seems like beings of that power all have foresight of some sort. By arguing that Uri doesn't have that ability clearly runs counter to his described power level.
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Or if they don't they have someone who does have precog on call, I mean, if Death Masks era Harry can do it so can any of the actual heavyweights.
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Uriel is manipulating a lot. That is in his job description. In changes he even says that he and Vadderung are sort of colleagues.
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Yeah they're both putting human as their priorities, Vadderung even revealed they have lunch every year
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Kringle is St Nicholas (of course) so whilst he is Mab’s vassal he also does Uriel’s work, which is how on Christmas Eve he is able to get into the Carpenters without being bug zapped. Their lunch I suspect is a planning session taking place on St Nicholas Saints Day, 6th December.
We know on a related note from The Good Folk that Harry has taken back the Placard from McAnally, as the “Royal Guard” we’re able to break into his ale store.
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Mab could get into the carpenters home without any problems. Cat Sith explained in Cold Days how that worked with normal thresholds and apparently the angels agree with that principle.
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Mab could get into the carpenters home without any problems. Cat Sith explained in Cold Days how that worked with normal thresholds and apparently the angels agree with that principle.
It was Christmas Eve, and perhaps she cleared it with the angels that she meant no harm.
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It was Christmas Eve, and perhaps she cleared it with the angels that she meant no harm.
She can not do harm. She was a guest and I think the angels just know that. And the carpenters have the cobs living downstairs.
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She can not do harm. She was a guest and I think the angels just know that. And the carpenters have the cobs living downstairs.
Oh she can always do harm, but perhaps not on Christmas Eve. Also there might be just enough humanity left in her that she can pass the threshold? They didn't apparently stop the Turtlenecks either, and while they are not totally human anymore, they still fit in that category and entered. It is indeed a weakness in the guardian angel defense.
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Oh she can always do harm, but perhaps not on Christmas Eve. Also there might be just enough humanity left in her that she can pass the threshold? They didn't apparently stop the Turtlenecks either, and while they are not totally human anymore, they still fit in that category and entered. It is indeed a weakness in the guardian angel defense.
Mab can not do harm in the carpenters house because she is a guest and a Side. It is hard coded in her nature, she simply can not. She can wait outside of course but that is different.
As explained Sidhe can pass a threshold and then they are bound by the rules of hospitality. That is how the brownies could clean Harry’s appartement. That is how Mab could fix little Chicago and enter the carpenters home. That is what was explained when Thomas insulted Cat Sith in cold days. Cat Sith popped up suddenly inside the threshold and because he was a guest he did not rip Thomas entrails out but started to educate him.
She is also not stupid enough to insult Uriel by doing such a thing but that is beside the point.
Sith directed his eyes to Thomas and said, “While I am here, I am bound by the same traditions as would apply were I your invited guest,” he said. “I will offer no harm to anyone you have accepted into your home, nor take any action which would be considered untoward for a guest. I will report nothing of what I see and hear in this place, and make every effort to aid and assist your household and other guests while I remain.”
There is even more information there giving details. Mab came in without evil intent and was bound by the rules of hospitality. Another reason for her to bring a gift.
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There is even more information there giving details. Mab came in without evil intent and was bound by the rules of hospitality. Another reason for her to bring a gift.
I doubt that her intent has anything to do with it, it is more about who she is. I say that because Mr Grey wouldn't enter the Carpenter yard for fear of the angel guard, even though at that point in time he had no evil intent. Or at least he didn't want to push it.
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I doubt that her intent has anything to do with it, it is more about who she is. I say that because Mr Grey wouldn't enter the Carpenter yard for fear of the angel guard, even though at that point in time he had no evil intent. Or at least he didn't want to push it.
The point is that because she is Sidhe the angels can be sure she is not doing any harm as a guest. Her nature is simply different from Grey.
Mab can not pass the threshold with evil intent. That is not who she is. And that is why the angels let her in.
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The point is that because she is Sidhe the angels can be sure she is not doing any harm as a guest. Her nature is simply different from Grey.
Mab can not pass the threshold with evil intent. That is not who she is. And that is why the angels let her in.
I think it is more complicated or perhaps more simple, why was Ethinu confident that the Turtlenecks would get past the angels?
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I think it is more complicated or perhaps more simple, why was Ethinu confident that the Turtlenecks would get past the angels?
Apparently because they were human enough for that purpose or the ones chosen for that mission were. The distinction between human and not human is vague in the dresdenverse.
But that has nothing to do with why Mab was allowed to enter because she is clearly not human enough and would have been stopped if she was a threat. She clearly was not and the hospitality rules for Sidhe explain why.
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Kringle is St Nicholas (of course) so whilst he is Mab’s vassal he also does Uriel’s work, which is how on Christmas Eve he is able to get into the Carpenters without being bug zapped. Their lunch I suspect is a planning session taking place on St Nicholas Saints Day, 6th December.
We know on a related note from The Good Folk that Harry has taken back the Placard from McAnally, as the “Royal Guard” we’re able to break into his ale store.
I would think some little fairies breaking in to raid the kegs would be a bit beneath what the placard is for. I doubt whatever it does would kick in for that sort of thing. Seems like the wording implied people being protected.
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I would think some little fairies breaking in to raid the kegs would be a bit beneath what the placard is for. I doubt whatever it does would kick in for that sort of thing. Seems like the wording implied people being protected.
The Placard may have already been returned to the island for safe keeping. And stealing a keg or two of ale doesn't actually hurt anyone. I wouldn't be shocked if that had done it before and that Mac actually takes that into account when he makes his ale, that a keg or two would be lost to greedy little Brownies and Pixies. They need beer to go with all that pizza, right? ::)
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No Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer?!?!?!
He has more childhood belief than there is in Eldest Gruff or the Erlking.
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No Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer?!?!?!
He has more childhood belief than there is in Eldest Gruff or the Erlking.
But he is also pretty recent and maybe Kringle just does not like him.
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It is mainly about the let the world burn mentality and what he did to Molly. Harry breaks himself about killing Susan but that was not the point, Susan wanted it and for good reasons. I do not think the killing of Susan was considered evil at all. There was not that much attention to it given in ghost story as a thing Harry had to learn about.
Personally, I've always thought Changes was about Harry's personal chickens coming home to roost—the consequences of all of his decisions between Storm Front (really, everything he'd done since Justin) and Turn Coat. The friends (and enemies) he'd made, the Big Things he'd done, the cataclysms he'd stopped... all of it came to a head, and he was left with a terrible situation. We know how he "resolved" that. But, in my opinion, the plot of Changes was still very much happening with Harry; it was his own, personal comeuppance. Naturally, Harry's comeuppance isn't focused on making him suffer. It's centered on making someone he cares about suffer, because that's what would suck more for him. The fact that the heartripper ritual would kill him too almost doesn't even matter to him.
Ghost Story was about the impact of Harry's decisions (including the genocide and subsequent suicide) on everyone else. It's about showing him the debris field of him bullrushing through a dozen or two major events and mistakenly believing that he was the one paying for all the damage he caused. He paid for a lot of it, but not all of it; others wound up trying to cover the remainder of the bill. And now he wasn't there to even help...provide... cover for the dine-and-dash? The metaphor is getting away from me.
Anyway, I see Changes and Ghost Story as mainly illustrating two sets of consequences of The Decisions of One Harry Dresden, Mad Wizard and Defender of Little Guys: the first for himself, the second for everyone else.
On the microfiction: this kinda ties in really well with my thoughts on the Defenders of the Bean. Molly is expanding Harry's reputation tremendously here. Makes me wonder what kind of impact that's going to have later on, if any.
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I think that this will draw the Librarians directly to Harry and hopefully he'll become a n informal liaison between the the Magical and Mortal worlds. Maybe he'll even get Tilly(transferred) or someone like him as a regular contact and Bradley(also transferred) in charge of SI.
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I think that this will draw the Librarians directly to Harry and hopefully he'll become a n informal liaison between the the Magical and Mortal worlds. Maybe he'll even get Tilly(transferred) or someone like him as a regular contact and Bradley(also transferred) in charge of SI.
You realize this is a happily-ever-after scenario? And those don't happen in Dresden?
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We don't know, when we arrive to the ending, we will see :D
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Granted, but there's this weird fandom desire to want to see the Librarians as helping Harry.
I mean, they might- but that would be because of their agenda, not because they recognize Harry's inherent good-guy-ness, or something of the sort.
This isn't Snow Crash, he's not Hirohito Protagonist.
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You realize this is a happily-ever-after scenario? And those don't happen in Dresden?
I don't expect them to help much at all. They'll be taking the role Murphy had in the early novels as good guys that have to be worked around. The best Harry will get is some help with the after the fact consequences in exchange for information.
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Granted, but there's this weird fandom desire to want to see the Librarians as helping Harry.
Well, I clearly don't share it. I am convinced they will be foes for Harry (even when probably trying to help humanity).
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Well, I clearly don't share it. I am convinced they will be foes for Harry (even when probably trying to help humanity).
I don't think they will be foes exactly, but neither will they be allies. By that I mean they are on the same side when push comes to shove, but are so different that they will get in each other's way a lot. Yes, a lot like Murphy in the first couple of books, but they will suffer from a "group" narrow mindedness about wizards, magic, and what is really going on. In contrast, though she wasn't exactly trusting of Harry in the first couple of books, Murphy had already seen too much and had an open mind as to what lurked out there.
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I think they will fulfil Murphy’s original role. They will with the best intentions complicate everything.
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I think they will fulfil Murphy’s original role. They will with the best intentions complicate everything.
Yup, they will get in the way...
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The Librarians will help Harry but to further their own ends. They will want the artifacts in his possession to be in their possession, they will want to control Demonreach and its inhabitants. They therefore will need to interact with Harry, both positively and negatively, but they will interact.
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The Librarians will help Harry but to further their own ends. They will want the artifacts in his possession to be in their possession, they will want to control Demonreach and its inhabitants. They therefore will need to interact with Harry, both positively and negatively, but they will interact.
I don't think they will get too far with any of the above. Alfred will see to that.
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As Harry said, he doesn’t react well at attempts to control him, the Librarians may try, but they won’t succeed, but they will have to try.
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Yes, you are probably right
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Yes, you are probably right
That was a lesson Murphy had to learn didn't she? Once she did, it worked out.
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That was a lesson Murphy had to learn didn't she? Once she did, it worked out.
It's easier for an individual to learn that their preconceived notions and, or limited information they based their earlier decisions on were faulty or incomplete and then reevaluate the situation and people they are dealing with; and perhaps make better decisions and take more fair and appropriate actions in the future, than for someone working in a group or organization can do. This is true whether the group is formally organized like a business, religious order, government organization or is simply a mob.
Group mentality tends to reinforce it's beliefs on the individuals within it and is more difficult for an individual working within it to break with. I don't know how the Librarians will react to and interact with Harry, but they will probably be far more difficult to reason with than Murphy was. Harry has already interacted with some "men in black" characters in one of the comic books or short story, so they probably already have a dossier on Harry and already consider him to be dangerous and to have made questionable allegiances and alliances. So, similar to the White Council's opinion of Harry, but more exaggerated and less accurate at the same time.
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On the microfiction: this kinda ties in really well with my thoughts on the Defenders of the Bean. Molly is expanding Harry's reputation tremendously here. Makes me wonder what kind of impact that's going to have later on, if any.
I too made that connection.
We don't know, when we arrive to the ending, we will see :D
My first and immediate thought on reading this, even though I agree, was "oh, sweet summer child."
This isn't Snow Crash, he's not Hirohito Protagonist.
"Hiro Protagonist, a name you'll never forget." Haven't read it, but my brother often quotes it out of the blue.
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My first and immediate thought on reading this, even though I agree, was "oh, sweet summer child."
Well, I know what you mean with that but I feel in the obligation to tell you that I am, in fact, a sweet summer child :). I was born quite close to the solstice. Of course, it is Winter for you, Northener people, but that is not my problem. And I was a sweet child too :)
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Well, I know what you mean with that but I feel in the obligation to tell you that I am, in fact, a sweet summer child :). I was born quite close to the solstice. Of course, it is Winter for you, Northener people, but that is not my problem. And I was a sweet child too :)
Being caller a Northerner, as someone who has spent the entirety of my life living south of I-10, reminds me of yet another GoT reference. When the Wildlings kept referring to "the North" as South. :)
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I don't know what 1-10 means. But yes, I know "Northener" can be funny for some :D
You cannot go much South than here.
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It's an Interstate Highway running along the Gulf Coast.
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Ah, thank you.
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For further reference, Interstate 10 runs from the Pacific Ocean in Santa Monica, California (near Los Angeles) all the way to the Atlantic in Jacksonville, Florida. So, very much a route through the Southwest U.S. through much of the South. I used to drive a few miles of it every morning to get to my job in downtown Los Angeles and never thought how far that freeway went.
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Thanks for the data.
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On the microfiction: this kinda ties in really well with my thoughts on the Defenders of the Bean. Molly is expanding Harry's reputation tremendously here. Makes me wonder what kind of impact that's going to have later on, if any.
It's finally going to bring the Marcone-Harry antagonism to a head, along with the Denarian thing. Molly and Harry have openly declared they're fighting for Chicago, which already has a Baron. Marcone will fight back.