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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Danien on January 05, 2010, 06:47:24 AM
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There been some speculations about how powerful some ofthe beings are in the dresdenverse.
So I think somebody should create a system, chart or something with characters and beings from the book ranked so we'll have a point of reference and comparison in our minds.
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Like this? In descending order of power:
The Almighty (AKA the Creator, Michael’s Boss).
The Faerie Mothers, The Archangels
The Fallen, Old Gods, Old Ones
The Faerie Queens, the Erlking, dragons, The Archive
Outsiders, regular Angels, the Faerie Ladies
Ancient demons, Sidhe Knights, Denarians, Knights of the Cross
It's from the RPG that's in development. :)
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Like this? In descending order of power:
The Almighty (AKA the Creator, Michael’s Boss).
The Faerie Mothers, The Archangels
The Fallen, Old Gods, Old Ones
The Faerie Queens, the Erlking, dragons, The Archive
Outsiders, regular Angels, the Faerie Ladies
Ancient demons, Sidhe Knights, Denarians, Knights of the Cross
I hope that you can all hear the cackling laughter coming from my house...
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Like this? In descending order of power:
The Almighty (AKA the Creator, Michael’s Boss).
The Faerie Mothers, The Archangels
The Fallen, Old Gods, Old Ones
The Faerie Queens, the Erlking, dragons, The Archive
Outsiders, regular Angels, the Faerie Ladies
Ancient demons, Sidhe Knights, Denarians, Knights of the Cross
It's from the RPG that's in development. :)
Well, if that becomes canonical, it would disambiguate a number of interesting ambiguities.
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Oh, it's just a rough attempt by a mortal to classify the unknowable... ;)
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Oh, it's just a rough attempt by a mortal to classify the unknowable... ;)
That's kind of a relief; while I appreciate that it would not be helpful to an RPG< some of those ambiguitioes are among the things I like most in the text.
(Remembering the story of John M. Ford expanding the novella "Fugue State":
"Are you going to resolve some of the ambiguities, then ?"
"No, but I can see where to put some new ones in.")
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Well, if that becomes canonical, it would disambiguate a number of interesting ambiguities.
Cannonically speaking, I'd guess a cannon with solid iron cannon balls would take out any of the Fey or other denizens of the Nevernever up to about the level of a Faerie Queen. :) Mab jumped back to avoid touching a common steel nail in Harry's office once.
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Oh, it's just a rough attempt by a mortal to classify the unknowable... ;)
Or, in the case of the game, a particularly precocious werewolf...
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Or, in the case of the game, a particularly precocious werewolf...
He counts as mortal!
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Like this? In descending order of power:
The Almighty (AKA the Creator, Michael’s Boss).
The Faerie Mothers, The Archangels
The Fallen, Old Gods, Old Ones
The Faerie Queens, the Erlking, dragons, The Archive
Outsiders, regular Angels, the Faerie Ladies
Ancient demons, Sidhe Knights, Denarians, Knights of the Cross
It's from the RPG that's in development. :)
I like this! I'm glad that this is being included in the rpg to give a general frame of reference.
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Like this? In descending order of power:
The Almighty (AKA the Creator, Michael’s Boss).
The Faerie Mothers, The Archangels
The Fallen, Old Gods, Old Ones
The Faerie Queens, the Erlking, dragons, The Archive
Outsiders, regular Angels, the Faerie Ladies
Ancient demons, Sidhe Knights, Denarians, Knights of the Cross
It's from the RPG that's in development. :)
I have a dispute. I do not agree that Old Gods, and Old Ones aer less powerful than Faerie Mothers and The Archangels. We have no real proof that is true, and some inkling that it maybe patently false.
Additionally Mab does not seem to fear the White God. She admits he's powerful but indicates that she feels pretty darn powerful herself. You have Faerie Queens listed as 2 orders of magnitude weaker than the White God, and that seems at odds with what we actually know from the books.
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You think Mab is as powerful as God? Interesting.
No worries, though: the list presented in the book is presented as a possible ranking, not an absolute. It's compiled by a werewolf after all, not the Archive.
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You think Mab is as powerful as God? Interesting.
No worries, though: the list presented in the book is presented as a possible ranking, not an absolute. It's compiled by a werewolf after all, not the Archive.
No I don't think Mab is as powerful as the White God.
But I don't think she's 2 orders of magnitude weaker than him. Also, we're completely unclear on how much power Mab has personally, and how much is vested due to her control over Winter.
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No I don't think Mab is as powerful as the White God.
But I don't think she's 2 orders of magnitude weaker than him. Also, we're completely unclear on how much power Mab has personally, and how much is vested due to her control over Winter.
Yeah, I hear you. But going strictly off the first ten books, it's hard to come up with any sort of list with any authority. I imagine by the end of the series -- another 12 books or so -- we'll have some better measurements. :)
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Just for giggles Iago, where would Lea fall in this hypothetical, precocious werewolf-compiled listing? :)
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Just for giggles Iago, where would Lea fall in this hypothetical, precocious werewolf-compiled listing? :)
I'm pretty sure she's considered second in power only to someone like Mab, so around there.
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[Elvis] Thank you, thank you very much! [/Elvis]
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No I don't think Mab is as powerful as the White God.
But I don't think she's 2 orders of magnitude weaker than him. Also, we're completely unclear on how much power Mab has personally, and how much is vested due to her control over Winter.
I agree. Two orders of magnitude wouldn't even do the difference justice.
I see it as the The Almighty.
....then the rest fight over the scraps of power he allows them to have. ;D
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:-\ what about Tiny and his brother Eldest Gruff?
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:-\ what about Tiny and his brother Eldest Gruff?
Tiny and Eldest are both discussed in the game (along with another 180+ individuals). Tiny is actually *stattable* as opposed to plot-device-level-powerful. Eldest, we have a few theories, and share them. :)
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I agree. Two orders of magnitude wouldn't even do the difference justice.
I see it as the The Almighty.
....then the rest fight over the scraps of power he allows them to have. ;D
WHere do you see that at all in the Books?
Michael refers to him as the All Mighty (but he's way way biased)
Mab as the White God
Dresden basically says "There's a White God and he works in weird and subtle ways and who knows how powerful he is.."
Harry doesn't view Ms Duck as any less dangerous and powerful as Michael. SO there's no concrete proof that Odin is any less powerful than Michael's White God. Except our real world biases.
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IMO, since Iago is and has been "elbow deep in the guts of the game" as it were, I think that his is an informed view of the actual, current game mechanics & structure, precocious werewolf or not. :)
SVB, I can well understand - and much applaud - that when *you* run things, in your version, you can and should re-rank and re-relative-ize (Is that a word?) to your hearts & your players hearts content.
As long as your session runs satisfactorily, and a good time is had, who cares?
For me, that's kind of a cool thing about a good quality gaming system - you can take the basic framework, and mutate it to serve your own ends, group gaming style and such.
And Mab, The WG, Odin? Really, it doesn't matter power-wise above a certain point - it's not like Mab dropping a 4000 ton weight on you kills you any less than the WG dropping a 4001 ton weight on you.
At that point any player is so far out of their league that the relative powers - from the gamers POV - count for very little. It's completely out of the realm of serious contest and into Looney Tunes, as Harry says.
But for myself, geek that I am - I am truly looking forward to getting my big sweaty mitts on a copy, learning the FATE game mechanics and the "work" parts of the system, and having a great time with it!
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IMO, since Iago is and has been "elbow deep in the guts of the game" as it were, I think that his is an informed view of the actual, current game mechanics & structure, precocious werewolf or not. :)
SVB, I can well understand - and much applaud - that when *you* run things, in your version, you can and should re-rank and re-relative-ize (Is that a word?) to your hearts & your players hearts content.
As long as your session runs satisfactorily, and a good time is had, who cares?
For me, that's kind of a cool thing about a good quality gaming system - you can take the basic framework, and mutate it to serve your own ends, group gaming style and such.
And Mab, The WG, Odin? Really, it doesn't matter power-wise above a certain point - it's not like Mab dropping a 4000 ton weight on you kills you any less than the WG dropping a 4001 ton weight on you.
At that point any player is so far out of their league that the relative powers - from the gamers POV - count for very little. It's completely out of the realm of serious contest and into Looney Tunes, as Harry says.
But for myself, geek that I am - I am truly looking forward to getting my big sweaty mitts on a copy, learning the FATE game mechanics and the "work" parts of the system, and having a great time with it!
I never said I wasn't looking forward to seeing the game mechanics, or that I thought a guide to show the relative powers of the various groups would not be cool.
I just questioned where in the Canon of the books there is corroborating evidence for the power structure the way Iago has it setup.
It's not even about running the game and re-ranking based on what I think.
I'm more trying to figure out where the OP's ranking is coming from, and what in the books supports it, because in my reading of the books I don't see a convincing argument to backup his breakdown.
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I'm more trying to figure out where the OP's ranking is coming from, and what in the books supports it, because in my reading of the books I don't see a convincing argument to backup his breakdown.
Since I wrote up the power-rankings of the plot-device level folks, here's my thinking in three different flavors.
1. Mab speaks of Uriel with respect (as more or less a peer, from my reading) in SMALL FAVOR.
2. Uriel works for the Almighty.
3. The Faerie Mothers are more powerful (but more constrained) than the Faerie Queens as noted in SUMMER KNIGHT.
These three facts lead to two power comparisons:
Almighty:Archangels::Mothers:Queens
Really, the more intresting debate here is "are the Mothers equal to or greater in power to the Almighty?" because the Mothers already outrank Mab in sheer power.
So, I made a first cut with a rough ranking:
A. Almighty
B. Mothers
C. Archangels/Queens
Taking another angle on things:
1. We know from Lash that Lasciel was around when the universe/multiverse/anything that's not outside the Outer Gates was created from the void.
2. Lasciel was just an angel, outranked by Archangels, outranked by the Almighty.
3. The Faerie Mothers are somehow involved in maintaining the natural order of the universe. Therefore, they are part of Creation.
4. I assume that the Creator is more powerful than the constituent parts of Creation.
(Though a good debate can be had here, too, on point 4 -- is an automotive engineer more powerful than a car?)
To take even another angle, the more powerful an entity is, the less mortals seem to directly interact with them, face-to-face. Harry's chatting with Mab all the dang time, not so much with Uriel, once with the Mothers, and no one we know of has had a face-to-face the Almighty.
Lastly, it's called THE ALMIGHTY. That's "all mighty." (It's what it says on the tin.) Would Mab ever refer to an entity that way in comparison to herself, even with a big sneer?
In all cases, Mab is apparently not on the same level as the as the Almighty.
So, barring a tvtropes-esque Word of God from Jim here, I'm gonna come out and say:
The Almighty > Mab
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Well thought out, very sound logic.
I have a question though.
When does Mab ever refer to him at the Almighty? when does anyone except Michael refer to him as the Almighty?
Mab repeatedly refers to him as the White God. (To differentiate him from other Gods).
I'm just now rereading Grave Peril so Michael has just been introduced, I will pay close attention to this particular detail.
I'm not saying you don't make an interesting case. Because you do, I'm just not sure the quotes from the book really support it. But, I can't quote page numbers and books yet. So I'll come back when I can, and either agree or bring up an well documented argument.
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Well thought out, very sound logic.
I have a question though.
When does Mab ever refer to him at the Almighty? when does anyone except Michael refer to him as the Almighty?
Mab repeatedly refers to him as the White God. (To differentiate him from other Gods).
Hm. I thought she had at some point during her convo with Harry re: Uriel. I could be wrong about that.
Lemme check my notes (at work, don't have the actual book on hand). . . Anyway, that convo happens somewhere around page 400+ in SMALL FAVOR.
(Let's drop hypothesis 4, then.)
I'm just now rereading Grave Peril so Michael has just been introduced, I will pay close attention to this particular detail.
I'm not saying you don't make an interesting case. Because you do, I'm just not sure the quotes from the book really support it. But, I can't quote page numbers and books yet. So I'll come back when I can, and either agree or bring up an well documented argument.
Please do!
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snip lots of good stuff
Very nice Chad!
I think the key is that Mab is part of the created order and her power is finite and her will can be thwarted. The Almighty is the creator and his will cannot be thwarted - even when his adversaries think they have done so.
Unless of course you view the things said about him as untrue and biased, which is perfectly fine, but then you have to question everything said about everyone.