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Messages - Mira

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16
DF Spoilers / Re: Mab Roade with the conquerer
« on: April 02, 2024, 12:36:48 PM »
+1 for William the Conqueror.

Also note:  that's William, Duke of Normandy (i.e. France);
and a huge amount of the King Arthur legendarium comes from France.

If "Mab" rode with William, she may have originally been a French girl.

Although William is centuries post-Arthur... but Merlin could certainly have survived (indeed, with his known 5-ply time prison element of the Demonreach enchantment, he was certainly active well-after the time of William)

Not sure if any of this is precisely meaningful -- vis-a-vis the Dresden Files and our various guesses & prognostications as to how things will go -- but it's interesting grist for our mills!

It's possible on Merlin, but if you go by mythology, Merlin had long been asleep by that time. 

17
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 29, 2024, 10:19:46 PM »
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The naive (aka ignorant) POV is one of the key types of "unreliable narrator."

And Harry is always ignorant.

  That,isn't true because always[/i ] implies an absolute..  Harry may be or can be ignorant in some areas, but he isn't always ignorant in all areas.. However if you want to agree that you too are always ignorant, I will admit to that as well, since there are a lot of things you and I don't know, thus are always ignorant.
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He starts that way (q.v. Jim writing an actual, literal, "talking head" to "educate" Harry); but, despite how much he has learned, Harry stays that way:

    he's a magical heavyweight, and he's fighting his way into the deeper & murkier end of the supernatural power-pool
    he's also a PI, so he inquires & investigates as a central element of his professional life

Despite all he has learned, he keeps forging out beyond what he knows, into new areas... areas where he's still ignorant.
Or do you call that curiosity?  Without curiosity there is no progress.. However exploring new areas isn't simple, it is always complicated, and an intelligent person knows he or she doesn't know everything.. So Harry is a detective, he is investigating to find answers, but with the answers come more questions to find answers to..  Yup, Harry is ignorant, just like you and I.
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Finally, I reiterate:  Jim himself says that Harry is an unreliable narrator.  When professional writer (who has not only a bunch of successful novels, but a bunch of academic & workshop training in writing) says "I used this well-known method" ... I honestly don't understand why it's so important to you to deny it.

Just Googled it;
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What Is an Unreliable Narrator in Writing? An unreliable narrator is an untrustworthy storyteller, most often used in narratives with a first-person point of view. The unreliable narrator is either deliberately deceptive or unintentionally misguided, forcing the reader to question their credibility as a storyteller.Sep 29, 2021

Yes, the Dresden Files is written in the first person.
 
Is Harry an untrustworthy storyteller?  Sometimes due to his own errors and mistakes, but is he always untrustworthy? No, he isn't..

Is Harry deliberately deceptive in his story telling?  I'd say not..

Unintentionally misguided? Sometimes, but not always..

Forcing the reader to question their credibility as a storyteller?  For some of you apparently.. However when you have lived as long as I have, it is easier to see the whole picture of a person's life, the series covers a huge chunk of Harry's life.  Perhaps I am the only one here, but there is no way I could read and reread over a dozen books written in the first person if I felt the story teller had no credibility as a story teller.. What a waste of my time!  And yes, Jim is a good successful writer, he knows that as well!  He skillfully mixes the two, the reliable with the unreliable, so we are looking for the truth along with Harry, thenwhen the truth is found, and since it is written in first person, we the reader usually accept the truth, that Harry has found out and is reliably telling us!   
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OK, this is an entirely different point!  And it can be a crutch, yes; but equally, it can be simply point out that just because Harry says such-and-such is "true" (like his early reports of Mab being "the archetypal evil queen"), that too isn't really "evidence" that "such-and-such" is a "truth" of the Dresdenverse.

Thank you, that is my point! Too many use it as a crutch..

Yes, I am merely pointing out that what Harry said when he was young and inexperienced might not be true,but for him in that point in time, it was true.. So the picture he paints of Mab in Summer Knight was unreliable. However as he gotten older and understands more, the picture he paints of Mab now, is much more reliable.  Or if Jane Austin wrote "Pride and Prejudice" in the first person, that person being Elizabeth, or Darcy for that matter, both would be very unreliable narrators because their first impressions of each other were totally wrong.

18
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 29, 2024, 02:33:32 PM »
Yes they do.

"Unreliable narrator" is a specific literary term, a method/technique authors use; it has a specific meaning.  Jim Butcher says he's using it, and shows us this in the books.

Being "naive" (inexperienced, ignorant) is very-specifically one well-known form of this "unreliable narrator" method.

I understand, but if you go back and read the different definitions of what an unreliable narrator is, Harry really doesn't fit, at least not consistently.  Yes, he makes mistakes, can be inexperienced, and sometimes ignorant, but not consistently.  I would like to see in context of what Jim actually said about Harry.  Is Harry more reliable in the later books as he and we the readers learn more?  Or can anything be believed since 95% of the time it is Harry who is doing the story telling?  Harry who is lot more experienced and a lot less ignorant than he was in the early books, is he more reliable now?  What I am saying is both can be true at the same time.  Too many times the term "unreliable narrator" is the fall back crutch when there is no evidence to prove the poster's point one way or another. 

The series is told in first person, this does present problems in the narration of the story.  The teller can be wrong as Harry has been from time to time, especially in the early books when he was younger and trying to figure out what was going on.  If this was a consistent pattern of his through out the books, would you enjoy reading the story if you believed the story teller was full of BS 90% of the time?  Don't think so, and as the series has gone on, Harry alters his views about other characters and events as we do in life.. 

19
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 28, 2024, 04:43:57 PM »
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It's a 1st-person-POV story, so Harry only "knows" what the author writes him as knowing... and as noticing, in the moment (for example, there's the scene where Lash reveals there was a veiled figure at the Ordo Lebes meeting); though Harry is a keen observer, e.g. Harry noticed Abby's medic-alert bracelet.

It is, what it is, right? 
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But most of all, Jim himself attests that Harry is an unreliable narrator, and that Harry has a fairly simple & "straightforward" perspective, and mostly doesn't  grasp the subtler (and more-correct) nuances of many situations & individuals.
Or more to the point, the author is giving himself wiggle room for changing his mind later in a long series or CYAing for his own mistakes that his "Beta Readers" might miss.  So it all has to be taken with a grain of salt.  I just think too many times it is a convenient excuse for posters who fail to adequately back up their own posts.  If they can't prove their point the fall back line is Harry is an unreliable narrator..
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Early Mab was written as the stereotypical "mythical villain" figure, the archetype and prototype of all Evil Queens (and Kings, &c); later we see that she's cold&hard because she's Winter, but possibly the single mightiest champion who's fighting on behalf of Creation.
But Harry's early perceptions of Mab,or of Morgan for that matter, don't make Harry an unreliable narrator.  They were accurate as he saw them at the time as a young inexperienced wizard.  When we first meet Harry he is a young wizard in his mid-twenties, a lot has happened to him, the characters, and the world around him in the last 35 years, and with them his perceptions  Though he writes in first person, he writes not as a historian beginning the first page of the book," back in 1982 these are the events as I remember them.." No, his tale reads in first person, in that time period, as he perceived it in that time as a young man.  I bet if you were to try and narrate a story about your life at 25, even with a daily diary, you'd do some correcting about the people you've met and how you saw the world at that time, at 50 you see the people you have met and the world around you differently.  So for as he saw it at the time, right or wrongly, I think Harry is quite reliable.. That doesn't make him always correct, but for that moment as he saw it, he was.. Now often he will correct or admit he was wrong about events and characters as the series goes along.  Events, information have changed his impressions of characters like Mab and Morgan in addition to his own maturity.
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Harry's "unreliable" narration is from a place of ignorance, & an unrealistically-simplistic perspective.

No more than any human perspective, looking at the series as a whole, I think you can say Harry's perspective is a hell of a lot less simplistic in the last five books, from what it was in the first five..  Harry's narration is reliable for the time period he was writing in, it has shown mental and emotional growth over the series.  His world has become more complex, he has a character has become more complex and matured.
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"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." -Mark Twain.Mar 24, 2015

The same can be said of Harry.. ;)

20
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 28, 2024, 03:10:10 PM »
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Three(4?) magicians:  Harry Houdini, David Copperfield, & the Blackstones (Sr. & Jr),  if you'll forgive the nitpick.

You are right, been down with COVID, forgot about Blackstone..  However nothing really magical about the names except the men who had them.. However though all three were great illusionists and vanilla magicians, it was all stage craft and no wizard powers involved.  Natural that they would be Malcolm's idols and that he'd name his son after them and hope that someday young Harry would follow in his footsteps.   

21
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 27, 2024, 09:53:30 PM »
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Harry the unreliable narrator with a very confusing backstory even without the constant shifts?

Is he?  Everyone says that yet outside of a few short stories he is the only narrator we've got. So is he a liar? Just stupid? Maybe senile when he wrote his story?  Unless you got an alternative story out there..
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Let's jump back to Star wars for the metaphor of chosen Orphan. Did luke know... Anything that was true? Leia what about Rey?
What has that to do with anything?  Harry is a starborn, he would be so whether he was an orphan or not.  As far as his names go as Harry explains back in Fool Moon, it isn't the names themselves that would give Chauncy power over him, it is giving him, his names..  Harry was careful even to change the inflection of how to say the names he did give him to try and prevent Chauncy from having power over him..  Didn't matter if his name was John Jinglehimer Smith, or Harry David Copperfield Dresden, it was giving his name or part of his name that gave Chauncy power over him and what he bargained for.
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I find it far more likely they named him together, as they were indeed together before her death 👀
So what if they did? Harry's name in of itself has no power, at least up to this point it hasn't shown itself to have power of any kind or protection.
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I find it fair less likely Malcolm named him unilaterally and just by happenstance gave him the extra protection of names in a verse where such things actually matter.(Something Harry mentioned in storm front, FM, GP, ECT)
Whether Malcolm did or didn't give him those names unilaterally doesn't matter.  The name, Harry, in of itself has no power or protection, nor David, nor Copperfield, nor Dresden, what gives power is that they are his names.
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Again:  do we know this?  Was he on-board with the "starborn" scheme?  I don't really count the scene in the dream (around the campfire), because it's evident that Malcolm was VERY clued-in at that point.
Oh I think he was more clued in than you think, at least the importance of the conception, even if he didn't fully understand.  This is hinted at both by Margaret herself during Harry's soul gaze with Thomas in Blood Rites and when Lash begins to tell him about his power over Outsiders in White Night.  It takes two to make a baby, and that's even more important in the case of a star born.

22
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 27, 2024, 04:21:04 PM »
We know who Harry was named after, but it's actually entirely a logical leap that it was Malcolm who named him at all.. Padme didn't survive child birth and she named her kids.
And since classically the third name itself is a direct result of the 'hidden name's convention', I find it highly unlikely he just happened to get two. Wasn't for bargaining, it's for it's original purposes, protection.

So are you saying that Jim stole the idea from Star Wars?  Even if he did, Harry was born before the prequels to the original Star Wars trilby came out, the first one 1999.  So yeah, possible, but at the same time unlikely.  Just as likely that Malcolm a vanilla human stage magician would name his son after a well known and I imagine admired stage magicians, Harry Houdini and David Copperfield.  In fact I believe Harry said that back in Storm Front.. Now Malcolm could have lied to him about that, but what would be the point.

23
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 26, 2024, 02:28:45 PM »

  I realize we are going far afield again, but I guess it is all related and there are so few of us now posting.
Anyway....
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The DF Wiki says so, too:
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    The tradition of the White Court is to not tell a young potential succubus what they will become, or even anything about the supernatural world. In their childhood and early teens they are raised as a vanilla human. Their first feeding, which is always fatal, comes as a surprise to them, and introduces them into the world of the White Court.

(footnoting this factoid to White Night ch.27; I have not gone back to find the original passage(s) supporting this.)

I just did go back to Chapter 27 of White Night, other than stating that Thomas was hungry and that he tries not to kill, nothing about what the DF Wiki sights.. However in Blood Rites there is, it talks about if Inari is in love she might be able to avoid that first feeding. Even if she cannot avoid it, if she and the young man love one another the Hunger Demon could be killed.
Blood Rites 164-165
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page 164, Thomas leaned up against the wall beside my mother's portrait.  He pushed his hair back from his face with one hand.  "She hasn't been taken by her Hunger yet," he said.  "Once she starts feeding it there's no going back.  She'll be like us for the rest of us.  My father is pushing her toward that point.  I want to stop him."
"Why?"
"Because if. . .if she's in love, that first time, it could kill her Hunger.  She'd be free.  I think she is mature enough to be capable of that love now. There's a young man she's all twitterpated about."
That indicates there is a choice if the would be White Court vamp knows before hand.  The reason why the set up for Inari's first feed to be on Harry, she isn't in love with him.. She'd kill him, be hooked.  Also note that timing is important, Thomas states that he thinks Inari is mature enough to experience true love.. So Raith has to set up his daughters before they have a chance to be in love.
page 165
 
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Thomas pressed his lips together for a moment and then said.  "If the kid loves her in return, then she could have a life.  She could be free of the kinds of things that---"  His voice broke.  He had to cough before he continued."Things like what happened to Justine.  Like what my father has done to my other sisters."
"What do you mean, done to them?"
"He establishes that he is their superior,  He overpowers them.  Pits his Hunger against theirs."
My stomach twisted.  "You mean he feeds on his own. . ." I couldn't finish the sentence.

So the above establishes a couple of things, 1] once the feeding begins, the would be vampire is toast, a vampire. 2] True love can kill it at this time.  3] Raith did set up his daughters so they had no choice upon whom that first feeding began, so it happened and results in death of the victim. 4] Most importantly Raith sets them up so then he can establish Hunger power over them though incest.  No, I don't think this is standard White Court practice.

24
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 26, 2024, 01:41:11 PM »
To be clear:  are you suggesting that the "magicians of the day" (Harry Houdini, David Copperfield, Harry Blackstone (Sr. & Jr.)) were all actual wizards (e.g. White Council or the like), instead of mundane "stage magicians" (like Malcolm was)?

I tend to think not.  "Stage magic" is a well-understood (if intentionally obscure) art, and we don't have to posit "real" magicians faking that they are faking their magic (tho it's an amusing idea).

Agreed, what Malcolm knew and performed were strictly stage vanilla human tricks and illusions.  Though I think it is fair to say that Malcolm knew Margaret was a wizard, I think less clear, how much he knew of her world.  He knew enough apparently to go along with her desire to give birth to a star child.  However the more subtle aspects like the power of names and why one should be very careful giving one's name to a demon for example as Harry explained back in Fool Moon when he called up Chauncy is another matter.  I doubt that Malcolm's knowledge was that extensive and it is what it is, he named Harry after a magician that he admired, not so Harry would have a lot of names to bargain with later on in his life.

25
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 25, 2024, 02:17:00 AM »
This is pretty much "family life" for all Whampires.

The parents all "set up" their kids, try to make sure that "first feeding" is just teen hormones & body-chemistry (or teenage angst/despair for the Skavis, etc).  A few train them young and ruthless, so they know ahead of time... but that's the exception.

I don't think so, the impression I got from both Lara and Thomas that at puberty it is about choices and there is a more natural process for it.  That's why both of them wanted their little sister away from their father.  Inari still most likely will fail at true love, Jim left that an open question as far as her future was concerned, but it would still be on her own terms.  I think the point of both Thomas and Lara were making was the way their father pushed and tricked them into that first kill was to gain control and power over them, and they didn't want that for their little sister.

26
DF Spoilers / Re: Lara and Harry
« on: March 24, 2024, 04:51:49 PM »
I'd have to re-read the passage for the precise wording:  it could have been just a bluff, a pressure-tactic against Harry.  But even so, I'd bet that Mab is entirely-willing to use a Whampire's hunger-demon as part of her manipulation-campaign against a Winter Knight.

Thomas would be especially-vulnerable:
  • isolate him from Justine "because training"
  • give him tons of hot&eager wintersidhe (from whom he can feed freely without risk of killing them.
Condition him to be unrestrained & incautious.  Then, when he has done some mission that made him spend deeply from the Whamp reserves, is desperately (even catastrophically) Hungry:
  • make all that Faerie Hotness "unfortunately-unavailable"
  • toss a vulnerable mortal Doe his way
Let the virtually-inevitable happen.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

All of that could be true, but I have reread the passage as well more than once and I think it is all part of the Fae Con.. Harry has been burnt enough by it, that when he listened to Lea's offer he realized she was telling him just enough of what he wanted to hear, so that he would then proceed to lie to himself about what she just told him.  No the Fae cannot lie, but they can make you lie to yourself.. That's why trying to bargain with them is so dangerous.  How often has Mab smugly said paraphrasing now, "that's what you thought I meant, but that's not what I really said." 

27
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 23, 2024, 08:57:34 PM »
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I think it's worth noting that there are two questions being addressed in the thread:
1st (as posed in this OP) - Is "Karma" a bitch?  Does "Fate" now have a violent end in store for Thomas?  Is Thomas (having murdered) now doomed to face a violent (albeit possibly heroic) end?  It's worth noting here that Thomas has been a murderer ever since we met him:  whampires only manifest fully after their 1st full
 feeding, which AFAIK is always to the death (n.b. Connie & Irwin are an odd case)... so Thomas must have killed his first lover.
Yes, he did murder his first victim, it has been years since I read Blood Rites, but if I remember correctly Lord Raith set him up. Young, with perhaps little understanding of what he was, let alone control, he fed upon his first victim until she died and became a full vampire himself.  Lord Raith did the same with Lara, and tried to set up their little sister, Inari with Harry as her first kill.  Interesting that though especially Lara was at peace with her status, Thomas also for the most part, neither wanted that for their little sister, they wanted her to have at least a choice, nor have a chance that true love would burn out the Hunger Demon before she killed anyone.  In short Lord Raith set Thomas up to commit murder, and in spite of some efforts not to, he has committed murder since in the course of feeding, especially during and after the Skin Walker had a hold of him.

28
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 20, 2024, 01:15:32 PM »
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Harry is an "unreliable narrator," and has limited understanding of things.
I think you are inferring more from & about the Harry-POV than actually is stated.

You are saying that Harry was quoting Vadderung/Odin wrong.. Possible, but then again we will have to see.
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Odin knows the trick of taking off a mantle without dying, of holding onto it, of putting it back on again at need.  If Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle, he has to obey Mab; if Odin isn't willing to obey Mab, he just takes off the Kringlemantle (and loses the Christmas-y Kringlepowers... but he's still f'ing Odin the Allfather, who was ancient before mortal-Mab first joined the fae; and things probably just got really tense...) .

Which really makes Vadderung/Odin's point doesn't it.  Protocol, in other words while wearing the Kringlemantle, Kringle has to obey Mab, but only as long as Mab's agenda goes along with Odin.  If it doesn't, Odin simply drops the Kringlemantle, AND he doesn't have to obey Mab.  And yes, things would get tense really quick, so it is all handled very diplomatically, through protocol because Odin or Kringle/Odin doesn't need to duel Mab as Vadderung/Odin points out.
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Reading between the lines, I think Odin & Mab probably both put in a bit of effort to see to it that Odin's interests do not seriously conflict with Mab's interests, during the time that Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle:  neither one of them wants that conflict, but neither one of them could avoid it under the rightwrong circumstances.
Again, protocol, so on the surface Kringle has to obey Mab as a member of Winter, but since he is also Odin, he can drop the mantle ,and tell her to go fish at anytime which wouldn't be good.. So it is in the best interest of both to play nice, Mab is never going to command Kringle to do anything that Odin would really object to.. 

29
DF Spoilers / Re: Lara and Harry
« on: March 20, 2024, 12:55:20 PM »
Well, Lea can.  Doubt it's a general thing that very many of the Fae can do!  I bet Mab can, and maybe Titania.  I doubt the Winter Ladies could do it:  Maeve was too much of a slacker, Molly is both too new, and likely still flinches every time she thinks deeply about Rampires.  I'm less clear about the Summer Ladies, but kind of doubt it:  Winter (as led by Mab) seems to embrace the "knowledge is power" trope more; Summer seems to more intuitively feel that knowledge flows from power.

Also, Lea talked about it as a secret, as knowledge that she could trade for; not an inherently "faerie" power.

I think both Courts can do it, I don't buy that the Fae of Summer are less powerful than the Fae of Winter.  We have seen both Queens in action in Battle Ground, they seem pretty equal to me.  So while they can put the vamp part to sleep, it doesn't mean they can do it permanently.  Yeah, well, Lea was trying to make a sale or what she'd call a bargain.  The Fae are very good at the con game, while they cannot lie, they are not totally honest either.  What they do is push just enough truth, i.e. Lea said she'd trade for the knowledge, which she is vague about, but at the same time not lying about, in the hopes that Harry would be so desperate for a cure that he'd lie to himself about what it was exactly, that she was trading, and make a bargain for it.. 

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DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 19, 2024, 02:26:12 PM »
Odin isn't Fae.
The Kringlemantle is: -- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/... Search for "Kringle" on the page

Just like Harry himself isn't Fae, but the WK mantel is.

But then Jim goes on in the next line to say;

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His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.
2013 KC signing Q&A
If you’re (a powerful immortal being) in the real world, well, the problem is that you’re in the world, and you’re kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they’re fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn’t mind it, he thinks it’s awesome.

What I don't understand, is in the Q&A, Jim calls Kringle a "mantle" but in the book he calls Kringle a "person," in the body of Odin. Plus a lot of talk about protocol.  Which brings me to what Jim says next about Odin, how I read it is while in theory Kringle has to obey Mab, Odin/Kringle doesn't mind giving her the finger on occasion if her agenda doesn't match his.  In Skin Game their agendas matched, what would be interesting is if Mab gave Kringle an order which didn't match Odin's agenda.. Then we would see how readily Kringle would obey Mab.. That's where all the talk of protocol to prevent conflict comes in I think.

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