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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on October 06, 2020, 01:34:39 PM

Title: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 06, 2020, 01:34:39 PM


   Didn't talk to Ivy?  Yes, I understand she is totally into her Archive role now, but she is still Ivy.  I
believe that Ivy still sees Harry as a friend.  What I thought was weird, he didn't even give her
a head nod in acknowledgement or vice versa..
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 06, 2020, 02:50:29 PM

   Didn't talk to Ivy?  Yes, I understand she is totally into her Archive role now, but she is still Ivy.  I
believe that Ivy still sees Harry as a friend.  What I thought was weird, he didn't even give her
a head nod in acknowledgement or vice versa..
And I wanted him to have a chat with Sarissa. Might be interesting
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Bacail on October 06, 2020, 03:07:52 PM
I was screaming at Harry to call for Cat Sidhe during the Malk scenes.  Would have loved to have that snark machine come back.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Bad Alias on October 06, 2020, 04:28:53 PM
I think it's funny that some of us are complaining about what was left out of the books while others (and sometimes the same ones) are complaining that there was too much going on.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 06, 2020, 05:04:16 PM
I think it's funny that some of us are complaining about what was left out of the books while others (and sometimes the same ones) are complaining that there was too much going on.

Some things were more logical than others, agreed about Sarrissa as well as the Archive, Harry had a fairly close friendship with both these ladies.  Some things just seem odd, Drakul and Mavra, oh making warden vamps for the future.. Ferrofax, he is important, but he isn't at that first meeting of the Accords after the battle.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Telynn on October 06, 2020, 05:07:34 PM
I thought him and Ivy not even making eye contact was odd.  Not like it needed to be more then a single line.  But he gave her a name for goodness sake.  Even if she is trying to put some distance for some reason, I think there would have been something. 
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: ClintACK on October 06, 2020, 05:10:18 PM
Lots of little things were left out.

Conversations with:

A clear final status for:

It might have been good for Harry to find out that/why Ivy's mad at him. A reminder about leaving interpersonal wounds to fester would be timely.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 06, 2020, 05:13:43 PM
I thought him and Ivy not even making eye contact was odd.  Not like it needed to be more then a single line.  But he gave her a name for goodness sake.  Even if she is trying to put some distance for some reason, I think there would have been something.
There is that matter of Harry using Kincaid to kill himself. In one day she was robbed of all her close contacts. She won’t take that lightly. No way to know what she thinks about Harry now.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: CrusherJen on October 06, 2020, 05:19:09 PM
I'm not sure about Christos, though I'd like to think we'd have heard about it if he'd died. But then, the White Council just kicked Harry out, so it's not surprising we don't get the answer on that one.

I'm pretty sure Andi and Marci were the wolves bodyguarding Butters after the Battle of the Bean, when Harry returns after the final confrontation with Ethniu, so they're okay. And in one of the recent video interviews, Jim confirms that Mister and Bonea were with the Carpenters during the big fight, so they're okay. (I can't remember which one that's from, but I think it was either the Barnes & Noble chat or the Muskogee Library vid.)
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Telynn on October 06, 2020, 05:22:45 PM
There is that matter of Harry using Kincaid to kill himself. In one day she was robbed of all her close contacts. She won’t take that lightly. No way to know what she thinks about Harry now.

That's true, but you think one line with Harry making eye contact, and Ivy glaring, then turning away.  Or something like that.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Bad Alias on October 06, 2020, 05:36:11 PM
Lots of little things were left out.


A clear final status for:
  • Andy and Marci
IIRC, Harry had two wolves guarding him and so did Butter. I think there was also a line about how Harry didn't go out with werewolves shadowing him. I don't remember the number for that one.

It just struck me that the end of BG is very similar to GP. Harry's upset that he's lost his love and it's dangerous for him to go outside. GP was the book where things started to escalate from detective stories to something on a larger scale.

(I can't remember which one that's from, but I think it was either the Barnes & Noble chat or the Muskogee Library vid.)
I remember it, so it's not Barnes & Noble.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 06, 2020, 05:47:41 PM
There is that matter of Harry using Kincaid to kill himself. In one day she was robbed of all her close contacts. She won’t take that lightly. No way to know what she thinks about Harry now.

  That happened some time ago, and I am sure she may have known from the beginning.  But is she mad at Harry, who was suffering?  Or at Kincaid, who happily went along with it for a big payday? Now he is an adult, not a stranger to killing, all he had to do was say, "no" to Harry, and Harry's plans would have been thwarted.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: forumghost on October 06, 2020, 06:27:05 PM
  That happened some time ago, and I am sure she may have known from the beginning.  But is she mad at Harry, who was suffering?  Or at Kincaid, who happily went along with it for a big payday? Now he is an adult, not a stranger to killing, all he had to do was say, "no" to Harry, and Harry's plans would have been thwarted.

She's a teenager who was hurt/betrayed/abandoned by the two people closest to her simultaneously. Do you really think she's not mad at both of them?
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 06, 2020, 10:24:20 PM


Apparently the story takes place right after Changes, when Kincaid get's back from shooting Harry.

Here is what goes down;
Quote
She knew.

“In the chest, Kincaid,” Ivy said.

If you’re shooting at someone, you’ve already decided to kill him. There’s no reason to shoot him anywhere other than the head, if you can. And I can.

She took a step toward me, maybe ninety pounds of furious, tearful eyes and newly-filled-out lips pulled away from a snarl. “In the chest. Or face me.”

I thought about asking her why. But in the end, it didn’t really matter. She had the power to stop me, for good. And she would use it if I didn’t comply. A chest shot might give the wizard time to throw a death curse at me, if he changed his mind.

It was a less risky proposition than going up against the Archive herself, here, now.

I gave her a small bow.

She returned it. Then she stepped aside, so that I could walk to the door.

“I’ll be back in two days,” I said.

“Kincaid,” Ivy said quietly.

I paused at the door.

“He’s my only other friend,” she said.

She seems pissed that he shot Harry in the chest and not the head.  I guess because Harry wanted to die, and Kincaid agreed to do it, and he didn't go for the sure kill shot.  She apparently also knows that Harry still lives because she says "He's my only other friend," not that he was her only other friend. 
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Bad Alias on October 06, 2020, 10:34:19 PM
The story takes place during Changes. Ivy tells Kincaid to shoot Dresden in the chest or she'll come for him. She did that so that Harry had a chance. She's mad a Kincaid for taking the contract, and she's probably mad at Harry for offering it.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 06, 2020, 11:55:53 PM

   Didn't talk to Ivy?  Yes, I understand she is totally into her Archive role now, but she is still Ivy.  I
believe that Ivy still sees Harry as a friend.  What I thought was weird, he didn't even give her
a head nod in acknowledgement or vice versa..
it's ivy giving him the cold shoulder that makes me think she'll be back to try to woo him lol. Idk, something about it... Like a kid with a crush whose none too cooth about what to do about it and way too nervous to openly confront it.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 07, 2020, 12:21:41 AM

   Didn't talk to Ivy?  Yes, I understand she is totally into her Archive role now, but she is still Ivy.  I
believe that Ivy still sees Harry as a friend.  What I thought was weird, he didn't even give her
a head nod in acknowledgement or vice versa..

Definitely! (I said it in another post). Even if Ivy was angry at him, he did not know that, so he could have smiled at her, or something. It is very weird that no description of ANY interaction were given. In fact, I am wondering if we will have a microfiction set before PT where for some reason they talked.
Similarly, I am surprised Harry didn't wonder where Kinkaid was. I don't think he knows Ivy fired him because of him. And it's like he totally forgot about Kinkaid (not even thinking on him when meeting Drakul).

And yes, Andi and Marci are the ones with the KotC at the end, while Will and Georgia are with Harry.

I got the impression that Christos lived.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: forumghost on October 07, 2020, 12:39:52 AM

Apparently the story takes place right after Changes, when Kincaid get's back from shooting Harry.

Here is what goes down;
She seems pissed that he shot Harry in the chest and not the head.  I guess because Harry wanted to die, and Kincaid agreed to do it, and he didn't go for the sure kill shot.  She apparently also knows that Harry still lives because she says "He's my only other friend," not that he was her only other friend. 

You have it backwards. Ivy was telling Kincaid (who was on his way to Chicago to kill Harry) that if he Didn't shoot him in the chest she'd throw down with him.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 07, 2020, 05:39:38 AM
You have it backwards. Ivy was telling Kincaid (who was on his way to Chicago to kill Harry) that if he Didn't shoot him in the chest she'd throw down with him.
You're right, my bad..
Quote
.
Similarly, I am surprised Harry didn't wonder where Kinkaid was. I don't think he knows Ivy fired him because of him. And it's like he totally forgot about Kinkaid (not even thinking on him when meeting Drakul).

True, but Harry never liked Kinkaid very much, that might be why.  But he does like Ivy, and she likes him, sees him as a friend, but she totally ignores him.  Perhaps she knows if she greets him in any way, it will draw attention and that would not be good, especially for him.  He knows she has to appear totally neutral, and understands.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 07, 2020, 10:32:35 AM
As this is about the topic, I repeat a post I did in other place:
"Also, TCF posted the transcription of an interview with Jim and he answers the question about Ivy. I post it here under a spoiler tag, so people can choose if read it or not (not everyone wants to know WoJ)
(click to show/hide)
"
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 07, 2020, 12:01:30 PM
As this is about the topic, I repeat a post I did in other place:
"Also, TCF posted the transcription of an interview with Jim and he answers the question about Ivy. I post it here under a spoiler tag, so people can choose if read it or not (not everyone wants to know WoJ)
(click to show/hide)
"

Yes, that makes sense, I even said as much, but it is still a disappointment.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Bad Alias on October 07, 2020, 07:29:13 PM
it's ivy giving him the cold shoulder that makes me think she'll be back to try to woo him lol.
Please no.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: SerScot on October 08, 2020, 02:51:58 AM
I think it's funny that some of us are complaining about what was left out of the books while others (and sometimes the same ones) are complaining that there was too much going on.

Both complaints are accurate.  There was too much “battle, battle, battle” and not enough actual character development.

The books were weak.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 08, 2020, 03:42:57 AM
Both complaints are accurate.  There was too much “battle, battle, battle” and not enough actual character development.

The books were weak.

There was some possible set up for Mirror Mirror, or what could be.  I just hope we don't have to wait six years to read it. 

As I said before the books had a kitchen sink feel to them.  I agree battle, battle, battle, and no character development makes for a weak story.  Like the final season of Game of Thrones, there was a lot of BOOM, but very little light and heat resulting in a lot of disappointed fans.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: DanceGeek5678 on October 08, 2020, 09:26:10 AM
As long as we're listing things Peace Talks/Battleground seem missing, Where was the Leanansidhe? All the fey turn out, from the Gobblin King to both courts of the Sidhe, to all the local wild fey. Basically everyone, EXCEPT the one fey whomis said to be stronger than all save Mab. Why? What gives there? That extra punch might have saved lives. Where was she?
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: forumghost on October 08, 2020, 09:30:52 AM
As long as we're listing things Peace Talks/Battleground seem missing, Where was the Leanansidhe? All the fey turn out, from the Gobblin King to both courts of the Sidhe, to all the local wild fey. Basically everyone, EXCEPT the one fey whomis said to be stronger than all save Mab. Why? What gives there? That extra punch might have saved lives. Where was she?

At the Outer Gates, dealing with an attack. Molly mentions it when she gives Harry his change of clothes.

The general rule Jim has given us is that Lea is where Mab isn't.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 11, 2020, 12:47:13 AM
There is that matter of Harry using Kincaid to kill himself. In one day she was robbed of all her close contacts. She won’t take that lightly. No way to know what she thinks about Harry now.

JB obviously had an agenda for how the suicide when down, his world so his right to play it his way.

Harry asked Molly to use Neuromancy KNOWING that it will harm her, KNOWING that it violated her probation, KNOWING that his death also means hers, KNOWING that she loves him and this will TEAR HER UP inside yet that's his first choice. He chooses Murphy's mantoy, Ivy's only other "family" member as the tool. I was kind of hoping Ivy would tell him where he could go and what he could do with himself when he got there. Molly deserves SO much better then Harry too.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: morriswalters on October 11, 2020, 01:23:40 AM
Did you mean Ivy, and if you did I upvote this by a 1000.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 01:57:12 AM
JB obviously had an agenda for how how the suicide when down, his world so his right to play it his way.

Harry asked Molly to use Neuromancy KNOWING that it will harm her, KNOWING that it violated her probation, KNOWING that his death also means hers, KNOWING that she loves him and this will TEAR HER UP inside yet that's his first choice. He chooses Murphy's mantoy, Lily's only other "family" member as the tool. I was kind of hoping Lily would tell him where he could go and what he could do with himself when he got there. Molly deserves SO much better then Harry too.

"his death also means hers". What? It is clear that is was not what happened. Also

1) I have been discussed for year that "you don't invade the mind of others" is not the same as "you cannot enter in another's mind if they are willing". So, I don't think that violated her probation.
2) Molly would be seriously hurt (specially being as sensitive as she is), sad and guilty, but Harry was in a place too dark to realize that. It is not uncommon for suicides in the real world to seriously understimate their importance in other people's lives. I don't think that make them bad people, only too damaged.
3) He did not know that Ivy would know that Kinkaid was involved. How many people do you think Harry could have used instead?
4) Harry is a very traumathized man who is trying who do his best. Molly is an actual warlock who is also trying to do her best. I don't think she is so much deserving that him.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 11, 2020, 04:18:58 AM
Did you mean Ivy, and if you did I upvote this by a 1000.

Yes I did, problems with typing while distractions in the house. Original corrected, thanks.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 11, 2020, 04:35:17 AM
Quote

Harry asked Molly to use Neuromancy KNOWING that it will harm her, KNOWING that it violated her probation, KNOWING that his death also means hers, KNOWING that she loves him and this will TEAR HER UP inside yet that's his first choice. He chooses Murphy's mantoy, Ivy's only other "family" member as the tool. I was kind of hoping Ivy would tell him where he could go and what he could do with himself when he got there. Molly deserves SO much better then Harry too.

The point is, he asked her, she agreed, her choice, she was an adult at the time.  When was Kincaid ever Murphy's mantoy? 
Quote
1) I have been discussed for year that "you don't invade the mind of others" is not the same as "you cannot enter in another's mind if they are willing". So, I don't think that violated her probation.
Yes, and they had been violating that law for some time with their mental sparing.. If they hadn't done that the Corpsetaker would have had Molly's body.
Quote
2) Molly would be seriously hurt (specially being as sensitive as she is), sad and guilty, but Harry was in a place too dark to realize that. It is not uncommon for suicides in the real world to seriously understimate their importance in other people's lives. I don't think that make them bad people, only too damaged.

Very wise, and very true, a suicide really isn't responsible for his or her actions, they cannot see beyond their own acute pain.
Quote
3) He did not know that Ivy would know that Kinkaid was involved. How many people do you think Harry could have used instead?
No, the reason he had Molly wipe his mind in the first place was so Mab wouldn't be tipped off and stop him.  Apparently he misjudged because Ivy got the message, insisted on a chest shot, possible chance for survival, instead of a head shot, no chance for survival, and possibly tipped off Mab because she was waiting in the water with open arms.
Quote
4) Harry is a very traumathized man who is trying who do his best. Molly is an actual warlock who is also trying to do her best. I don't think she is so much deserving that him.
Indeed.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 11, 2020, 04:43:04 AM
"his death also means hers". What? It is clear that is was not what happened. Also

He would have to possess clairvoyance at the time to know Carlos would slow walk the order to execute but the Council did order her execution because of Harry's death.

1) I have been discussed for year that "you don't invade the mind of others" is not the same as "you cannot enter in another's mind if they are willing". So, I don't think that violated her probation.

Given that Molly only looked around in a mind and that was enough for Morgan, even though in the end he didn't report it. Do you think that the Council would hesitate to kill them both for ANY reason?

2) Molly would be seriously hurt (specially being as sensitive as she is), sad and guilty, but Harry was in a place too dark to realize that. It is not uncommon for suicides in the real world to seriously understimate their importance in other people's lives. I don't think that make them bad people, only too damaged.

Finding out a loved on has committed suicide is not the same as having to help them commit suicide.

3) He did not know that Ivy would know that Kinkaid was involved. How many people do you think Harry could have used instead?

He knows that Ivy is the Archive, he knows that she knows. He even stated that he had a second option, his now bride-to-be Lara.

4) Harry is a very traumathized man who is trying who do his best. Molly is an actual warlock who is also trying to do her best. I don't think she is so much deserving that him.

I will politely agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 04:47:56 AM
The point is, he asked her, she agreed, her choice, she was an adult at the time.  When was Kincaid ever Murphy's mantoy?
Dead beat. Harry took care of the plants while Murphy and Kincaid went to Hawaï.
Quote
Yes, and they had been violating that law for some time with their mental sparing.. If they hadn't done that the Corpsetaker would have had Molly's body.
They were not. The sparring was not an invasion. The mutual consent is what makes the difference.
Quote
Very wise, and very true, a suicide really isn't responsible for his or her actions, they cannot see beyond their own acute pain.No, the reason he had Molly wipe his mind in the first place was so Mab wouldn't be tipped off and stop him.  Apparently he misjudged because Ivy got the message, insisted on a chest shot, possible chance for survival, instead of a head shot, no chance for survival, and possibly tipped off Mab because she was waiting in the water with open arms.Indeed.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 11, 2020, 04:55:05 AM
Quote
He would have to possess clairvoyance at the time to know Carlos would slow walk the order to execute but the Council did order her execution because of Harry's death.

Suicides don't think things through, they cannot see beyond their own pain.  They may think they are thinking things though, but their judgement is clouded by their severe emotional pain.  Harry's thinking here cannot be seen as rational, because it wasn't because in that moment his mind was very sick and to make matters worse there was one of the Fallen cheering him on to guarantee he'd do the job.   
Quote
They were not. The sparring was not an invasion. The mutual consent is what makes the difference.
So it was when Harry suicided..
Quote
Dead beat. Harry took care of the plants while Murphy and Kincaid went to Hawaï.
Oh right, forgot about that, but all the same I wouldn't call Kincaid Murphy's mantoy.. Any more than she was his girltoy.. That is totally disrespectful to both, who were adults, and enjoyed each other's company for a time.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 11, 2020, 05:26:26 AM
Suicides don't think things through, they cannot see beyond their own pain.  They may think they are thinking things though, but their judgement is clouded by their severe emotional pain.  Harry's thinking here cannot be seen as rational, because it wasn't because in that moment his mind was very sick ...

Which is arguing my point actually
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: morriswalters on October 11, 2020, 05:37:13 AM
I'm unsure why Jim wasted his time on Ghost Story.
Quote from: Chapter 10 Changes
I growled as a column of pure rage rose up my spine and made my voice rough. “I will make Maggie safe. If the world burns because of that, then so be it. Me and the kid will roast some marshmallows.”
Which is well before he breaks his back and the fallen monkey with him. Pretty clearly Jim is signalling that Harry would do anything including throwing Molly under the bus. And Jim has Uriel spell it out in Ghost Story.
Quote from: Uriel in Ghost Story
“I believe that when you went after your daughter, you said something about letting the world burn. That you and your daughter would roast marshmallows.” I nodded bleakly. “It is one thing for you to say, ‘Let the world burn.’ It is another to say, ‘Let Molly burn.’ The difference is all in the name.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 555). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
An Ethicist might question Molly's ability to give informed consent given the power differential between them. Since he was her teacher and her crush. And the fact that his friends shielded her wouldn't have changed the fact that the threat would have always been there.  Mab sums it up in Cold Days
Quote from: Mab to Harry in Cold Days
“Consider,” Mab said, “that I have done something for her that you never could have.” “What’s that, exactly?”
“I have put her beyond the reach of the White Council and their Wardens,” Mab said, again as if explaining something to an idiot. “While they might howl and lecture as much as they wish about an apprentice wizard, they can do nothing at all to the Winter Lady.” I took a deep breath. That . . . was also true.

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 511). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
And I'm gone.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 07:14:33 AM
As I said, I don't reread Cold Days. But I do understand Harry impulse of suicide and I don't think he is a bad person for that.
And how would Harry know that Ivy would know? I still don't know how she knows. I don't believe Harry wrote his plan. Even then, Kinkaid was his best option.
Molly entered the mind of Harry, who was willing to do it. Harry did not invade her mind. And I don't think Harry thought the White Council will kill her for that.

And morris, I wish JB hadn't wasted his time in GS indeed. But I do remember Harry realized then (in GS, talking with Uriel as you said) that he had been wrong in thinking "let the world burn". That is when I realized he was not the monster I thought (I was so angry at him I almost stopped reading with that sentence). But He has been hurt and scared. Then he realized his mistake.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 11, 2020, 07:27:57 AM
Suicides don't think things through, they cannot see beyond their own pain.  They may think they are thinking things though, but their judgement is clouded by their severe emotional pain.  Harry's thinking here cannot be seen as rational, because it wasn't because in that moment his mind was very sick and to make matters worse there was one of the Fallen cheering him on to guarantee he'd do the job.

... and thereby incapable for giving consent. The whole point of GS was to show Harry that he was pushed by the Fallen's words, his free will was compromised. No free will, no consent. If this was all so above reproach then why did Molly have so much mental damage directly related to the invasion? Mab complements Harry on the fantastic job he did of binding Molly to his will, so how did Molly have reasonable free will enough to give consent? The Fallen's words pushed Harry to kill himself, they didn't push him to a) plan a deception so Harry can get more power b) use that power to rescue his child c) plan killing himself in a way that hurts two of his most loved people.

@morriswalters I upvote your reply 1,000
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: morriswalters on October 11, 2020, 07:51:09 AM
@Dina
Ghost Story isn't on my list of favorites either.  Cold Days pretty much ended the series for me. It tied up a lot of loose ends from the first half of the books. And I can't get too vested going forward since I don't think I can get to the end.  There's a really good book inside Peace Talks and Battle Ground but it's buried under a lot of dross.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 08:27:34 AM
Oh, my problem began with Changes and the brat. I simply cannot love the books as much as I loved them before she entered on Harry's life. CD and GS were not bad books per se, I just couldn't gather the will to reread them.

Straydog, you contradict yourself. Harry was push to kill himself, that is where his free will was taken. But, as you say, the way he chose to do that was his own choosing, free will. So he gave his consent to Molly. And she was so guilty because a) she is extremely sensitive b) she CHOSE to help Harry. If her own free will has been taken, she wouldn't have any reason to feel guilty. She knows she helps to Harry getting killed and of course that hurts her.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 08:31:34 AM
Suicides don't think things through, they cannot see beyond their own pain. 
Sure and red court half vampires don't think things through, they can not see beyond their bloodlust.

The dresden files are full of that kind of thing. They still count as free willed choices with sometimes big effects. Sometimes someone is there to help you like when Harry had to not kill Rudolph. As I read it killing Rudolph would have had bad consequences for Harry's soul. Emotionally it would be completely understandable.
Quote
They may think they are thinking things though, but their judgement is clouded by their severe emotional pain.  Harry's thinking here cannot be seen as rational, because it wasn't because in that moment his mind was very sick and to make matters worse there was one of the Fallen cheering him on to guarantee he'd do the job.   So it was when Harry suicided..
So it was but the white council's laws are not everything.

Morally the first consent was fine because it was made in a healthy state of mind and it resulted in both parties more sane and healthy and strong.

The second one was clouded by negative and suicidal emotions and unhealthy emotional pressures. Both are similarly allowed by a strict interpretation of the councils laws but their moral difference is clear and after reading ghost story the difference in effects on Molly is clear too.

It is like giving consent when you are drunk or under a white court vampires influence. It is not the same.
Quote
Oh right, forgot about that, but all the same I wouldn't call Kincaid Murphy's mantoy.. Any more than she was his girltoy.. That is totally disrespectful to both, who were adults, and enjoyed each other's company for a time.
Yes it implies a verdict about the quality of their relation and we know nothing about that. Jim promised us a short story about those two in Hawai.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 08:36:51 AM
@Dina
Ghost Story isn't on my list of favorites either.  Cold Days pretty much ended the series for me. It tied up a lot of loose ends from the first half of the books. And I can't get too vested going forward since I don't think I can get to the end.  There's a really good book inside Peace Talks and Battle Ground but it's buried under a lot of dross.
I rate Ghost story far above battle ground. It has things like plot, world building, characterizations and wonderful dialog. It is not just one big battle.

Especially everything Lea, Just read the parts with her in it.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 08:49:45 AM
After SG, a lot of my love for the DF was back. And now, after BG, I am finally beginning to want to reread the whole series. It will take me a long time, though, because I decided to reread the duology first. I am on chapter 12 of PT, so about 1/6 of the total.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 08:56:50 AM
After SG, a lot of my love for the DF was back. And now, after BG, I am finally beginning to want to reread the whole series. It will take me a long time, though, because I decided to reread the duology first. I am on chapter 12 of PT, so about 1/6 of the total.
I seldom reread everything at once. I usually pick favorite scenes and Ghost story has a few of them. 
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 09:36:47 AM
I do that from time to time but randomly. For instance, one day I feel like rereading one particular scene of a book and I do it. When I do that I usually end reading 4 or 5 chapters  :)
But all my books (including Changes, but not GS or CD) had a cover to ending reread not long after the first read.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Uriel_spook on October 11, 2020, 05:36:06 PM
This one also bugged me quite a bit over the course of the two books.  Didn't understand it at all.


   Didn't talk to Ivy?  Yes, I understand she is totally into her Archive role now, but she is still Ivy.  I
believe that Ivy still sees Harry as a friend.  What I thought was weird, he didn't even give her
a head nod in acknowledgement or vice versa..
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: BrainFireBob on October 11, 2020, 05:51:51 PM
This one also bugged me quite a bit over the course of the two books.  Didn't understand it at all.

Why? Harry and Kincaid are existential threats to the Archive.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 06:31:22 PM
And as friends both Harry and Kincaid have betrayed Ivy.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 11, 2020, 06:52:35 PM
And as friends both Harry and Kincaid have betrayed Ivy.

In what way? Betrayal suggests that it was a deliberate attempt to hurt her.   What they did was between them, what they are guilty of is indifference.  She was the last person Harry would think of in his pain, suicides don't think of others, only their own pain.  Kincaid saw it only as a job that would make him some pocket money.  Kincaid is a killer, that is what he does, thinking that killing Harry would hurt Ivy, never entered his mind.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Avernite on October 11, 2020, 07:10:45 PM
In what way? Betrayal suggests that it was a deliberate attempt to hurt her.   What they did was between them, what they are guilty of is indifference.  She was the last person Harry would think of in his pain, suicides don't think of others, only their own pain.  Kincaid saw it only as a job that would make him some pocket money.  Kincaid is a killer, that is what he does, thinking that killing Harry would hurt Ivy, never entered his mind.
Pocket money? Nah, Kincaid was repaying a favor.

Mind: neither of them thought of Ivy, indeed, so I agree it was indiffernce. Wouldn't surprise me if that has allowed the Archive to mold her into a more standard/neutral vessel as well, but would also expect Harry to not know that.

I do partly wonder if it's deliberate; Harry hanging with Lara, Mab and Molly but being snappy and agressive to Carlos and ignoring Ivy... almost as if some of his generic humanity was indeed bleeding out.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 07:11:50 PM
In what way? Betrayal suggests that it was a deliberate attempt to hurt her.   What they did was between them, what they are guilty of is indifference.  She was the last person Harry would think of in his pain, suicides don't think of others, only their own pain.  Kincaid saw it only as a job that would make him some pocket money.  Kincaid is a killer, that is what he does, thinking that killing Harry would hurt Ivy, never entered his mind.
I think it did cross Kincaid’s mind, he is not stupid, but he could not refuse. Harry called in a debt. It did not cross Harry’s mind that he would hurt Ivy as suicides often do not get that they are betraying people by leaving them.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 07:16:21 PM
I was very surprised and angry at Harry not doing as much of a nod or a smile to Ivy. I still think he did not know that Ivy would find his suicide attempt.
In what way? Betrayal suggests that it was a deliberate attempt to hurt her.   What they did was between them, what they are guilty of is indifference.  She was the last person Harry would think of in his pain, suicides don't think of others, only their own pain.  Kincaid saw it only as a job that would make him some pocket money.  Kincaid is a killer, that is what he does, thinking that killing Harry would hurt Ivy, never entered his mind.

I disagree, Mira. Kinkaid did not want to do the killing ,he did it because he owned Harry and perhaps because he agreed with him. Being dead was better than become a monster, and none of them had faith in Harry keeping his humanity after becoming a WK. So I think Kinkaid actually wanted to help Harry, perhaps humanity and...Ivy herself, who would be disappointed if Harry changed and became a monster.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 12, 2020, 12:05:13 AM
Quote
I disagree, Mira. Kinkaid did not want to do the killing ,he did it because he owned Harry and perhaps because he agreed with him. Being dead was better than become a monster, and none of them had faith in Harry keeping his humanity after becoming a WK. So I think Kinkaid actually wanted to help Harry, perhaps humanity and...Ivy herself, who would be disappointed if Harry changed and became a monster.

You could be right, but that wasn't Eb's take on him in Blood Rites.  Now Eb could be wrong, hopefully he is wrong about the White Court, but he seemed to have the same hate for Kincaid.  The question then becomes, why?
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 12, 2020, 12:55:35 AM
You could be right, but that wasn't Eb's take on him in Blood Rites.  Now Eb could be wrong, hopefully he is wrong about the White Court, but he seemed to have the same hate for Kincaid.  The question then becomes, why?
Because Eb has a very strong opinion about the monsters. All of them.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 12, 2020, 03:02:30 AM
Indifference is a betrayal too. What did Mab say about hate and love? She thinks logic is the opposite but it actually is indifference / apathy.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 12, 2020, 04:43:48 AM
Indifference is a betrayal too. What did Mab say about hate and love? She thinks logic is the opposite but it actually is indifference / apathy.

However, the Archive feels none of that, or shouldn't and retain her mental health. As Luccio says
in Small Favor.  "As a defense, the Archive began to distance themselves from other human beings,
emotionally.
She goes on to say; "Archive keeps its host emotionally remote for a reason---because otherwise the
passions and prejudices and hatreds and jealousies of thousands of lifetimes have potential to distil themselves into a single being."

So it seems that Ivy has grown up, she has become "The Archive."  Any pain she may have felt emotionally by Harry's suicide or Kincaid's assistance, she has removed herself except for on final request/order to Kincaid, make it a chest shot [possible survival] instead of a head shot, [most likely certain death.]  Ivy knows both were her only friends, but the Archive knows she cannot have any friends.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 12, 2020, 05:55:50 AM
I think you may be right, the Archive is isolating herself but a) that does not explain why Harry didn't react to her, with a smile or something. b) we know Harry will reach her at some point  :). He will bypass her "walls".
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 12, 2020, 05:58:14 AM
I'm still betting the archive itself has a mechanism to ensure its survival by procreation... And the only healthy male she has any connection to that didn't raise her is Harry..
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 12, 2020, 06:06:06 AM
I think you may be right, the Archive is isolating herself but a) that does not explain why Harry didn't react to her, with a smile or something. b) we know Harry will reach her at some point  :). He will bypass her "walls".
Because Harry feels guilty and not without reason. That makes it difficult to decide how to interact which leads to avoidance which is wrong but all too human.

Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 12, 2020, 06:09:00 AM
Arjan, yes. But is similar occasions Harry's inner monologue has informed us that he was actively avoiding her or something like that because he felt guilty. So I rephrase. I am not so surprised that Harry did not do anything but as him not "thinking" anything to explain that.

The_Sibelis. I hope not. Harry has not spoken with her (apparently, or as far as we know) in years. Perhaps she already has a boyfriend or something. If not, Harry should introduce her to the Carpenters boys  :)
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: forumghost on October 12, 2020, 06:10:49 AM
I'm still betting the archive itself has a mechanism to ensure its survival by procreation... And the only healthy male she has any connection to that didn't raise her is Harry..

Doubtful. If the Archive needs to find someone, she has all of Tinder in her head.

He mentions trying to catch her eye in PT, but she wouldn't look at him. I'd say she's just avoiding him because:

A) The Archive doesn't want to interact with him because The Archive has to remain neutral, and Harry has a tendency to pull people into his messes.

B) Ivy doesn't want to interact with him because she really freaking mad that he had Kincaid kill him.

Like, poor Ivy really has it rough. Harry needs to be better to his friends.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 12, 2020, 06:21:44 AM
Doubtful. If the Archive needs to find someone, she has all of Tinder in her head.

He mentions trying to catch her eye in PT, but she wouldn't look at him. I'd say she's just avoiding him because:

A) The Archive doesn't want to interact with him because The Archive has to remain neutral, and Harry has a tendency to pull people into his messes.

B) Ivy doesn't want to interact with him because she really freaking mad that he had Kincaid kill him.

Like, poor Ivy really has it rough. Harry needs to be better to his friends.
ivy doesn't want all of tender, she wants someone who cares about her.
Or C) she has a simple crush and now that she's past puberty she doesn't know how to interact with him. Occam's razor. Shes never minded Harry's mess before, and she wanted Harry to live. She was mad at kincaid. What reason would she be mad at Harry for his own choice to die? Mmm, same reason ppl are often mad in RL, because they cared.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 12, 2020, 06:28:52 AM
Like, poor Ivy really has it rough. Harry needs to be better to his friends.

Definitely!
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 12, 2020, 11:49:12 AM
Quote
ivy doesn't want all of tender, she wants someone who cares about her.
Or C) she has a simple crush and now that she's past puberty she doesn't know how to interact with him. Occam's razor. Shes never minded Harry's mess before, and she wanted Harry to live. She was mad at kincaid. What reason would she be mad at Harry for his own choice to die? Mmm, same reason ppl are often mad in RL, because they cared.

If it were just up to Ivy? Yes, but she is the Archive, and to care, is the road to insanity. I bet the Archive felt Ivy's pain and proceeded to remove her from the rest of the emotional world.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 12, 2020, 11:59:13 AM
If it were just up to Ivy? Yes, but she is the Archive, and to care, is the road to insanity. I bet the Archive felt Ivy's pain and proceeded to remove her from the rest of the emotional world.
that would mean it's decided by who has the final say, Ivy or the archive? If Ivy didn't have some pull, then she wouldn't be mortal still and offering her a coin was a particularly useless plan.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 12, 2020, 01:12:20 PM
that would mean it's decided by who has the final say, Ivy or the archive? If Ivy didn't have some pull, then she wouldn't be mortal still and offering her a coin was a particularly useless plan.

  I think it is a bit more complicated.  According to Luccio, it is unusual for the host to inherit the Archive so early in life, poor Ivy it has been a domino effect really.  First her grandmother dies in an auto accident, the Archive goes to the seventeen year old daughter, who is pregnant and in love. Because she wanted the freedom to live a "normal life," she hated her mother for dying and putting this on her and hated her unborn daughter for a future of having a "normal life," while she has a lifetime of being the Archive, so she killed herself. 

So yes, when the Denarians kidnapped her, Ivy was vulnerable, or seemed that way to accepting a coin in the hopes that it might insure she had a "normal life."  However except for some flashes of childlike behavior, the Archive has run the show more than Ivy has.  Ivy has no clue of what a normal life is, because she never had one.  So yeah, the bottom line, is the Archive was running the show and offering a coin was a pretty useless plan.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 12, 2020, 01:20:24 PM
I'd rather disagree with most of those statements.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 12, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
I'd rather disagree with most of those statements.

First of all, Ivy is a mortal, all the Archive hosts are mortal women, they all die eventually.  Most live for many years before that happens and their daughters live normal vanilla lives until that day when they inherit the Archive. The hosts become Spocklike for lack of a better term to remain sane, because if they didn't, their emotional selves would be at constant war with their Archive self that deals strictly in the facts, not the emotions.  Ivy's mother had a small window to make her emotional decision, suicide rather than submit to an unemotional life as the Archive. 
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 12, 2020, 01:39:41 PM
And I still by and large disagree with most of your original statements.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 12, 2020, 01:42:16 PM
And I still by and large disagree with most of your original statements.
So what do you disagree with?  And what are your ideas.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 12, 2020, 01:54:01 PM
So what do you disagree with?  And what are your ideas.
sorry... My face is on fire from my tooth and I'm having trouble with coherent thoughts atm, I'll come back later. agony, pure unadulterated agony. Dumbledore drinking the green potion kinda agony...
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 12, 2020, 01:55:34 PM
And I still by and large disagree with most of your original statements.

Right with you, especially the head shot vs body shot, but it is entirely possible that Ivy has far more important matters at play than Harry.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 12, 2020, 02:01:14 PM
sorry... My face is on fire from my tooth and I'm having trouble with coherent thoughts atm, I'll come back later. agony, pure unadulterated agony. Dumbledore drinking the green potion kinda agony...

My sympathies, I hope you can get into a dentist in this age of COVID.. 
Quote
Right with you, especially the head shot vs body shot, but it is entirely possible that Ivy has far more important matters at play than Harry.

She does, and understands that the Archive is more important so has removed her emotional self from the problem. 
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 12, 2020, 09:33:35 PM
sorry... My face is on fire from my tooth and I'm having trouble with coherent thoughts atm, I'll come back later. agony, pure unadulterated agony. Dumbledore drinking the green potion kinda agony...
As Mira says, hope you can find a dentist soon. Meanwhile, I've found that having a couple of powdered aspirines appplied in the hurting tooth helps with the pain. Even better if you just use the tooth to chew a couple of aspirines, but sometimes it hurts too much to chew anything.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 13, 2020, 12:28:14 AM
Ugh yea. Idk what to do when it flairs up like that. I try gargling benzocaine and I can still feel it so.. anyway though
I don't think the archive itself has more control so much as Ivy had leaned into the archive for support not knowing how to behave otherwise. The Archive only runs the show because Ivy doesn't know how to cope most of the time. If her mother managed suicide (there are conflicting stories on this, in one version she's dead, in another she's in a coma.. idk why the change...) Then not only did she manage to override the natural will to live but any inhibitions placed upon her by the archive itself to survive. That would seem to imply it's the host who has final say overall. The hosts started distancing themselves on purpose, not as an original function of the mantle itself but as a learned behavior. So it's not an internal mechanism per se. But an act of choice to preserve sanity for the host. Harry also named Ivy, much like he did Lash.. idk the scope of how that will effect things but it gave Ivy a portion of autonomy she may not have possessed before, having had no insulation from the archive previously. Could even effect the Mantle itself perhaps. She follows the archives total lead by choice, not by design though.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 13, 2020, 01:35:22 AM
@The_Sibelis  Hope you get well soon

Does anyone remember if Ivy was at the post battle meeting? The Council wasn't but I don't remember anything about Ivy.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 13, 2020, 02:00:03 AM
So it seems that Ivy has grown up, she has become "The Archive."  Any pain she may have felt emotionally by Harry's suicide or Kincaid's assistance, she has removed herself except for on final request/order to Kincaid, make it a chest shot [possible survival] instead of a head shot, [most likely certain death.]  Ivy knows both were her only friends, but the Archive knows she cannot have any friends.

I think that having a front row seat to her mother's suicide including feeling what she felt would have a far more dramatic effect on Ivy the Harry/Kincaid. It's far more likely that it was only after Harry's death that she found out about it. Harry had his mind wiped by Molly and pretty sure Kincaid had long since learned how to keep his thoughts private. Trust me, the whole head shot vs chest shot from over a mile away is a non-starter. Even Kincaid would never make the mistake of trying that.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 13, 2020, 02:12:51 AM
@The_Sibelis  Hope you get well soon

Does anyone remember if Ivy was at the post battle meeting? The Council wasn't but I don't remember anything about Ivy.
She was there. She was giving an overview of the situation when Harry arrived.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 13, 2020, 02:21:58 AM
She was there. She was giving an overview of the situation when Harry arrived.

Oh yeah, Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 13, 2020, 05:24:25 AM
I think that having a front row seat to her mother's suicide including feeling what she felt would have a far more dramatic effect on Ivy the Harry/Kincaid. It's far more likely that it was only after Harry's death that she found out about it. Harry had his mind wiped by Molly and pretty sure Kincaid had long since learned how to keep his thoughts private. Trust me, the whole head shot vs chest shot from over a mile away is a non-starter. Even Kincaid would never make the mistake of trying that.

I don't understand what you are saying here. That Ivy did not know that her mom killed herself?
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 13, 2020, 06:55:36 AM
I don't understand what you are saying here. That Ivy did not know that her mom killed herself?
Of course she knows. She is the archive.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 13, 2020, 07:33:34 AM
Precisely, that is why I don't know what StrayDog is saying. Unless he is talking about Ivy knowing about Kinkaid and Harry, and if that is the case, well, he clearly has not read "Goodbye".
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 13, 2020, 01:38:30 PM
Precisely, that is why I don't know what StrayDog is saying. Unless he is talking about Ivy knowing about Kinkaid and Harry, and if that is the case, well, he clearly has not read "Goodbye".

The conversation up to now has been about Ivy knowing of Harry/Kincaid. My point is that her knowledge of her mother's suicide is far more impactful.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 13, 2020, 01:48:48 PM
The conversation up to now has been about Ivy knowing of Harry/Kincaid. My point is that her knowledge of her mother's suicide is far more impactful.

Why?  She never knew her mother, while both Harry and Kincaid were the only two people that  acknowledged that she even was a human child.  Until she met Harry at the age of seven or so she didn't have a name other than, "the Archive."  And no, it wasn't a hard shot for Kincaid, he isn't totally human lets not forget.  His fear about doing a chest shot is Harry would live long enough to throw his death curse at him.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 13, 2020, 02:36:31 PM
Why?  She never knew her mother, while both Harry and Kincaid were the only two people that  acknowledged that she even was a human child.  Until she met Harry at the age of seven or so she didn't have a name other than, "the Archive."  And no, it wasn't a hard shot for Kincaid, he isn't totally human lets not forget.  His fear about doing a chest shot is Harry would live long enough to throw his death curse at him.

Pretty much the only thing I agree with there is that Harry named Ivy. JB can write Kincaid so amazingly perfect of an assassin that he can prognosticate all wind currents, bird paths, etc in a mile long ballistic flight but anybody who's done shooting will scream BS. Even JB constantly talks about ballistic flight in combat, same applies.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 13, 2020, 03:59:26 PM
Pretty much the only thing I agree with there is that Harry named Ivy. JB can write Kincaid so amazingly perfect of an assassin that he can prognosticate all wind currents, bird paths, etc in a mile long ballistic flight but anybody who's done shooting will scream BS. Even JB constantly talks about ballistic flight in combat, same applies.

Perhaps, but we don't know how far away Kincaid was when he made the shot, or what kind of rifle and scope used.  Kincaid is also a scion, which also may be a factor, he doesn't have human limitations though he appears human.  Apparently though, a good sniper can be deadly from pretty far away.  Found this about the longest distance kill.

Quote
3,540 metres
A Canadian special forces sniper has broken the world record for the longest confirmed kill shot. The soldier shot an IS militant dead from 3,540 metres, which is just over two miles away, in Iraq last month.Jun 23, 2017
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 13, 2020, 04:10:22 PM
Hundreds of years practice I'd bet he can do it by feel. Most military snipers can and they don't have nearly the span of time to practice as he had. Heck, lee harvey oswald made three shots and had two on target(within a span of seconds) from a block away with one of the most inaccurate rifles available (the bullets were famous for tumbling I'm air) and the previous record before the above one was a little over a mile iirc.
*No scope either, he used the iron sights iirc
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Rigil Kent on October 13, 2020, 04:13:23 PM
Heck, lee harvey oswald made three shots and had two on target(within a span of seconds) from a block away with one of the most inaccurate rifles available (the bullets were famous for tumbling I'm air) and the previous record before the above one was a little over a mile iirc.
*No scope either, he used the iron sights iirc
What are you talking about? That was the Comedian! :P
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 13, 2020, 04:30:27 PM
Hundreds of years practice I'd bet he can do it by feel. Most military snipers can and they don't have nearly the span of time to practice as he had. Heck, lee harvey oswald made three shots and had two on target(within a span of seconds) from a block away with one of the most inaccurate rifles available (the bullets were famous for tumbling I'm air) and the previous record before the above one was a little over a mile iirc.
*No scope either, he used the iron sights iirc

Aiming center mass and plenty of people will argue with you about who shot who from where, they've been doing so for over 50 years now.

@Mira
Never said Kincaid couldn't hit him, Kincaid would never have attempted to place a head shot. Maybe place high center mass but never head. Glad you Googled longest sniper kill, his first shot hit the ground and none of the soldiers noticed so didn't react. Both shots were aimed center mass.

If Ivy knew ahead of time then why didn't she just require Kincaid to guard her somewhere else? Pretty sure he can't be in two places at once but that will be argued. She chooses to have Harry mortally wounded and in Mab's hands while barely hanging on to life?
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 13, 2020, 04:41:21 PM
Why?  She never knew her mother, while both Harry and Kincaid were the only two people that  acknowledged that she even was a human child.  Until she met Harry at the age of seven or so she didn't have a name other than, "the Archive."  And no, it wasn't a hard shot for Kincaid, he isn't totally human lets not forget.  His fear about doing a chest shot is Harry would live long enough to throw his death curse at him.

The Archive knew everything according to Luccio in small favor:
Quote
“Ivy doesn’t,” Luccio agreed. “Her grandmother was killed in a freak accident, an automobile crash, I believe. Her mother was a seventeen-year-old girl who was in love, and pregnant. She hated her mother for dying and cursing her to carry the Archive when she wanted to have her own life—and she hated the child for having a lifetime of freedom ahead of her. Ivy’s mother killed herself rather than carry the Archive.”

I started feeling a little sick. “And Ivy knows it.”

“She does. Knows it, feels it. She was born knowing exactly what her mother thought and felt about her.”

Just because someone is not totally human does not mean he has no feelings. It just does not always work the same way as for most humans though with humans there is also a wide variety.

But the ned to paback that favor was al important.


Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 13, 2020, 04:49:36 PM
@straydog, considering Kincaid was definitely aiming center mass I don't see your point? However, no. I don't think oswald was, he hit him twice in the head and neck, firing from behind them where his center mass would have been covered by the car.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 13, 2020, 05:07:57 PM
@straydog, considering Kincaid was definitely aiming center mass I don't see your point? However, no. I don't think oswald was, he hit him twice in the head and neck, firing from behind them where his center mass would have been covered by the car.

Oswald is a very poor comparison to be trying to use but please take a comparable weapon, measure a city block, put a target up and see what it looks like. Since when do bullets not pass through cars or seats or walls for that matter. Just because he scored a head shot means nothing about where he was aiming.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 13, 2020, 05:27:14 PM
Why is nobody arguing the obvious? Kincaid didn't want to kill Harry. He selected  the smallest caliber that would get the job done and used and AP round so it would cause minimum damage. If he wanted Harry dead it would have been a 50cal incendiary round. Instead of small hole in, small hole out and even small hole in wall behind, it would have been small hole in and back half of torso splattered against the wall behind.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 13, 2020, 05:36:54 PM
Oswald is a very poor comparison to be trying to use but please take a comparable weapon, measure a city block, put a target up and see what it looks like. Since when do bullets not pass through cars or seats or walls for that matter. Just because he scored a head shot means nothing about where he was aiming.
a tumbling bullet does not penetrate like a rifled round no.. And pretty much any military trained basic rifleman can make a shot on target from a mere block, it's required to pass basic.. idk why your arguing semantics on LHO. Aim small hit small. Got any evidence he wasn't aiming for his head? Cause two, not one but TWO shots to the head are hard to argue against.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 13, 2020, 06:18:10 PM
For God's sake. Kinkaid was contracted (by Harry) to kill Harry and he does his contract. He also told him that he would go for the head if he even tried to kill him, so he would. The only reason he went for the chest is because Ivy asked him and to do it and threatened him if he didn't obey her.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 13, 2020, 06:19:10 PM
Why is nobody arguing the obvious? Kincaid didn't want to kill Harry. He selected  the smallest caliber that would get the job done and used and AP round so it would cause minimum damage. If he wanted Harry dead it would have been a 50cal incendiary round. Instead of small hole in, small hole out and even small hole in wall behind, it would have been small hole in and back half of torso splattered against the wall behind.

Well, it also put a small hole in his heart..  I wouldn't be shocked if Ivy tipped off Mab so she'd be waiting in the water to catch Harry, lower the water temperature around him as well as his body temperature.  Not unlike when open heart surgery is performed, so if he was still living when he hit the water, she made sure he'd stay living.. She still almost lost though because of Uriel's stunt.  However it might have been Uriel that nudged the bullet ever so slightly so it wouldn't be fatal.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 14, 2020, 01:12:42 AM
Aim small hit small.

LOL People still say that don't they!! I haven't heard that in years! Read that and actually laughed out loud! Thanks for that! My grandfather told me that way back when he was teaching me to hunt. I was trying to hit this tin can on the opposite bank across a stream waaayyy out back on my grandparent's farm but not having much luck. He had corrected my sitting posture and was working on my breathing when he said that. A couple of shots latter I holed the can and spent the next two days strutting around like a rooster spouting "Aim small, hit small" every chance I got. Dad quickly got tired of it though. Good times!!!!

My life doesn't permit me to read every scrap JB puts out about DF. Clearly JB has memorialized that Ivy [Harry's friend] had made arrangements with Mab [the evil Fae queen that Harry is DESPERATE to get away from] for Kincaid [the assassin Harry contracted to kill Mab's new Winter Knight] to shoot Harry through the heart [a more survivable injury than through the head] so he can fall into the lake where Mab [the evil Fae queen that Harry is DESPERATE to get away from] can save him and then [after 6 months of Harry being literally at death's door] she can take him to the center of her power where he is completely under her control while he recovers from the most compromised physical [and maybe mental] state he probably has ever been in. Guys, I think this part of the conversation has jumped it's shark.

The_Sibelis - Thank you sincerely for the much needed chuckle today.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 14, 2020, 07:11:06 AM
StrayDog, well, whenever you have time, read "Goodbye". Is a microfiction, it's in the official JB site and it saves you discussion time. In fact, here is the link, just move pass the trailer announcement.
https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/microfiction-3-con-swap-and-virtual-signing (https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/microfiction-3-con-swap-and-virtual-signing)

Also, I understand. I have not read Zoo Day, for instance (no money to buy Brief Cases) or the comics (same reason).
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Sormyst on October 14, 2020, 07:52:17 AM
Thank you, had not read that story
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 14, 2020, 08:14:23 AM
You are welcome
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: CrusherJen on October 14, 2020, 09:20:41 AM
Clearly JB has memorialized that Ivy [Harry's friend] had made arrangements with Mab [the evil Fae queen that Harry is DESPERATE to get away from] for Kincaid [the assassin Harry contracted to kill Mab's new Winter Knight] to shoot Harry through the heart [a more survivable injury than through the head] so he can fall into the lake where Mab [the evil Fae queen that Harry is DESPERATE to get away from] can save him and then [after 6 months of Harry being literally at death's door] she can take him to the center of her power where he is completely under her control while he recovers from the most compromised physical [and maybe mental] state he probably has ever been in. Guys, I think this part of the conversation has jumped it's shark.

If Ivy had said nothing, done nothing, Harry most likely would have died from a bullet in the head. Sure, surviving and winding up in Mab's clutches isn't the best place for Harry to be, but considering the alternative... Alive and in a bad situation is better than dead and gone. And what else could she really do? The Archive is supposed to be neutral, aware but interfering as little as possible in events outside of the Oblivion War. So my WAG is, Ivy was extremely limited in what she could alter, and changing Kincaid's aim was the absolute limit of what she could do. What happened after wasn't something she could control; she had to have faith in Harry to get through it as well as he could. (I could be wrong, of course, which is why I'm labeling this theory a WAG. YMMV.)

The notion that Ivy tipped Mab off interesting, but I suspect Mab would have been able to find Harry without it, through the tie of Winter power that binds Knight and Queen. So... it's a possibility, but I'm thinking it's less than likely that Ivy had to contact Mab at all. Again, YMMV.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 14, 2020, 09:25:08 AM
If Ivy had said nothing, done nothing, Harry most likely would have died from a bullet in the head. Sure, surviving and winding up in Mab's clutches isn't the best place for Harry to be, but considering the alternative... Alive and in a bad situation is better than dead and gone. And what else could she really do? The Archive is supposed to be neutral, aware but interfering as little as possible in events outside of the Oblivion War. So my WAG is, Ivy was extremely limited in what she could alter, and changing Kincaid's aim was the absolute limit of what she could do. What happened after wasn't something she could control; she had to have faith in Harry to get through it as well as he could. (I could be wrong, of course, which is why I'm labeling this theory a WAG. YMMV.)

The notion that Ivy tipped Mab off interesting, but I suspect Mab would have been able to find Harry without it, through the tie of Winter power that binds Knight and Queen. So... it's a possibility, but I'm thinking it's less than likely that Ivy had to contact Mab at all. Again, YMMV.
But when did the archive tip off Mab? If it was just before the hit Mab would have prevented it. I think she was there just because she was watching her knight.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: CrusherJen on October 14, 2020, 09:30:25 AM
I'm not sure Ivy tipped off Mab at all. I think it's more likely Mab sensed her Knight was in danger through the bonds of Winter power and acted to save him on her own. I'm not completely ruling out the idea that Ivy contacted Mab, but I don't find it likely. It's an interesting theory though. ;)
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: magnuskn on October 14, 2020, 09:58:50 AM

   Didn't talk to Ivy?  Yes, I understand she is totally into her Archive role now, but she is still Ivy.  I
believe that Ivy still sees Harry as a friend.  What I thought was weird, he didn't even give her
a head nod in acknowledgement or vice versa..

Yeah, absolutely. It's basically my biggest disappointment of the two-parter, aside from the Merlin not having a talk with Harry (which is a minor point compared to him not talking with Ivy).
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: forumghost on October 14, 2020, 09:59:43 AM
TBH I just assumed that Mab was there waiting for it because she expected Harry to try and kill himself to get out of being her Knight because that was very much a Harry thing to do.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 14, 2020, 10:01:26 AM
There were several occasions when Mab knew what Harry was doing immediately without being there in person. In cold days when Harry wanted to ignore winter law she acted immediately and at the end she indicated that she was waiting for Harry summoning her. He probably could have done that earlier.

TBH I just assumed that Mab was there waiting for it because she expected Harry to try and kill himself to get out of being her Knight because that was very much a Harry thing to do.
I do not think she expected it but she was watching him anyway.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: morriswalters on October 14, 2020, 11:55:41 AM
Mab or the Gatekeeper almost always know where Harry is.  And the banner effect would seem to put the coda on it.  She felt him dying.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: TheCuriousFan on October 14, 2020, 12:14:44 PM
There were several occasions when Mab knew what Harry was doing immediately without being there in person. In cold days when Harry wanted to ignore winter law she acted immediately and at the end she indicated that she was waiting for Harry summoning her. He probably could have done that earlier.
I do not think she expected it but she was watching him anyway.
She added in an explicit no suicides clause to the deal because she was expecting him to go for it right after he got what he wanted.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 14, 2020, 12:41:16 PM
Se added in an explicit no suicides clause to the deal because she was expecting him to go for it right after he got what he wanted.
And that clause should be enough if he had not arranged it previously.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 14, 2020, 02:40:22 PM
StrayDog, well, whenever you have time, read "Goodbye". Is a microfiction, it's in the official JB site and it saves you discussion time. In fact, here is the link, just move pass the trailer announcement.
https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/microfiction-3-con-swap-and-virtual-signing (https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/microfiction-3-con-swap-and-virtual-signing)

Also, I understand. I have not read Zoo Day, for instance (no money to buy Brief Cases) or the comics (same reason).

Thanks you for posting the link. Seems my contention is with the author who appears to be attempting some retcon as a step for future events. Lowers my impression of his writing of late which makes me sad.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 14, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Thanks you for posting the link. Seems my contention is with the author who appears to be attempting some retcon as a step for future events. Lowers my impression of his writing of late which makes me sad.
It is in line with my thoughts about Kincaid. He can not really refuse to pay of a debt.
But he has some feelings about it otherwise he would not have to remind himself at the end.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 14, 2020, 03:01:08 PM
You know... While getting shot in the head might have made harry more dead than he was, it wouldn't necessarily stop him from coming back.. so what if Ivy was actually worried about the thing growing inside that brain that could not yet survive independently instead?
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: morriswalters on October 14, 2020, 03:22:13 PM
Thanks you for posting the link. Seems my contention is with the author who appears to be attempting some retcon as a step for future events. Lowers my impression of his writing of late which makes me sad.
While I agree with you to an extent the shot in Changes was foreshadowed in Blood Rites as well as Kincaid's ability to make the shot.  Harry points out that Kincaid must be superhuman since he never misses. Speaking of the fight at Wrigley field Harry says.
Quote
"In a fight, just plain folks miss sometimes. Maybe most times. You didn't miss once."
Kincaid tells him later how he would do it.
Quote
"No. So I'd use a rifle at a thousand yards. The bullet outruns its own sonic boom, and you'd never even hear the shot. You'd be dead before you realized what happened."
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 14, 2020, 03:45:22 PM
You know... While getting shot in the head might have made harry more dead than he was, it wouldn't necessarily stop him from coming back.. so what if Ivy was actually worried about the thing growing inside that brain that could not yet survive independently instead?

No, if it made him more dead, then he might have been all dead. Then all Mab could have done was look for loose change.  Remember what she said about the spectrum of dead.. Harry was only mostly dead, he never was all dead, he was still slightly alive when he hit the water, Mab and the cold she most likely cranked up kept him from bleeding out and his shock under control till she got him to Demonreach.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 14, 2020, 03:57:39 PM
You know... While getting shot in the head might have made harry more dead than he was, it wouldn't necessarily stop him from coming back.. so what if Ivy was actually worried about the thing growing inside that brain that could not yet survive independently instead?

That is an incredibly intriguing thought!!! Could have also been a great way to float the theory that Harry was immortal without giving too much away.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 14, 2020, 04:09:03 PM
While I agree with you to an extent the shot in Changes was foreshadowed in Blood Rites as well as Kincaid's ability to make the shot.  Harry points out that Kincaid must be superhuman since he never misses. Speaking of the fight at Wrigley field Harry says. Kincaid tells him later how he would do it.

It is undeniable that Kincaid can make the shot being a scion and all. That was never the question. Would have been more believable to me to give Kincaid the ability to kinetically tweek the bullet in flight.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 14, 2020, 04:11:24 PM
No, if it made him more dead, then he might have been all dead. Then all Mab could have done was look for loose change.  Remember what she said about the spectrum of dead.. Harry was only mostly dead, he never was all dead, he was still slightly alive when he hit the water, Mab and the cold she most likely cranked up kept him from bleeding out and his shock under control till she got him to Demonreach.

Mira,
With the greatest of respect, I'm uninterested in continuing this segment of the conversation. Suffice to say, agree to disagree. No need to post just to get in the last bark.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: morriswalters on October 14, 2020, 04:36:15 PM
It is undeniable that Kincaid can make the shot being a scion and all. That was never the question. Would have been more believable to me to give Kincaid the ability to kinetically tweek the bullet in flight.
Jim leaves room for the imagination, he supplies the foundation, your imagination supplies the tweak.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 14, 2020, 04:37:13 PM
Quote
No, if it made him more dead, then he might have been all dead.
we don't even know what all dead IS. Corpse taker got shot in the face, she could still try to make a comeback.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Telynn on October 14, 2020, 04:40:40 PM
we don't even know what all dead IS. Corpse taker got shot in the face, she could still try to make a comeback.

No kidding.  The Genoskwa got completely pancaked in SG, but according to River Shoulders he's still alive and gunning for Harry.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 14, 2020, 05:05:49 PM
No, if it made him more dead, then he might have been all dead. Then all Mab could have done was look for loose change.  Remember what she said about the spectrum of dead.. Harry was only mostly dead, he never was all dead, he was still slightly alive when he hit the water, Mab and the cold she most likely cranked up kept him from bleeding out and his shock under control till she got him to Demonreach.
She could make another body available.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: morriswalters on October 14, 2020, 05:20:25 PM
we don't even know what all dead IS. Corpse taker got shot in the face, she could still try to make a comeback.
It's  a state implied and inferred in the Dresden Files but not actually seen.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 14, 2020, 07:19:04 PM
She could make another body available.

I think that is beyond even Mab's talents.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 14, 2020, 07:49:37 PM
I think that is beyond even Mab's talents.
Corps taker could do it.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 14, 2020, 08:56:02 PM
But another body wouldn't have Harry's talents. Remember what happened with Luccio. Also, probably not a starborn.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: BrainFireBob on October 14, 2020, 09:05:02 PM
Why?  She never knew her mother, while both Harry and Kincaid were the only two people that  acknowledged that she even was a human child.  Until she met Harry at the age of seven or so she didn't have a name other than, "the Archive."  And no, it wasn't a hard shot for Kincaid, he isn't totally human lets not forget.  His fear about doing a chest shot is Harry would live long enough to throw his death curse at him.

The Archive records everything. Why would it not retain host memories?

She should know her mother precisely, and her grandmother, back to the beginning of the Archive.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 14, 2020, 09:20:24 PM
But another body wouldn't have Harry's talents. Remember what happened with Luccio. Also, probably not a starborn.
from what EB said it's the energy of their existence not necessarily anything in particular about their blood or body that makes a starborn. So though the change in talent/power level might be an issue I don't think it would change his resonant frequency.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 14, 2020, 10:57:37 PM
The Archive records everything. Why would it not retain host memories?

She should know her mother precisely, and her grandmother, back to the beginning of the Archive.

Well, apparently it doesn't work that way, plus with wizards it is a matter of how they are wired neurologically.  I think it was in Fool Moon, Harry was having some problems fighting and got bailed out by Terra West and the Alphas , but what I am getting at is he almost blacked out and he said that some of the new skills he was trying weren't fully settled into his nervous system or something to that effect.  Luccio said essentially the same thing after the Corpsetaker got her, she enjoys sex as a woman with a twenty something year old body should, however she can no longer make custom Warden swords anymore, the "how to" is still in her brain, but the wiring to get the magical skill out her fingers to forge a sword are not there.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 15, 2020, 12:39:42 AM
The Archive records everything. Why would it not retain host memories?

She should know her mother precisely, and her grandmother, back to the beginning of the Archive.

Didn't Luccio say something to that effect when she was explaining why Harry shouldn't get close to Ivy?
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 15, 2020, 02:39:23 AM
Didn't Luccio say something to that effect when she was explaining why Harry shouldn't get close to Ivy?

Here is what she says about the Archive's memory page 407 Small Favor

Quote
"When the Archive is passed. . . Harry, try to imagine living your life, with all of its triumps and tragedies--and suddenly with a second set of memories, every bit as real to you as your own.  A second set of heartaches, loves, triumphs, losses.  All of them as real--and then a third.  And a forth.  And a fifth. And more and more and more.  The perfect memory, the absolute recall of every Archive that came before you.  Five thousand years of them."

Conclusion, it would drive anyone insane.

So the Archive came up with a solution.. same page Small Favor;

Quote
"The Archive keeps its host emotionally remote for a reason--because otherwise the passions and prejudices and hatreds and jealousies of thousands of lifetimes have the potential to distill themselves into a single being."

Goes on to say normally an Archive host has a lifetime of experience to insulate her from all of this. However Ivy has none of it, her grandmother died in that crash and her mother suicided rather than carry the Archive because she was jealous of her own baby[Ivy] who'd have a lifetime of freedom while she was forced to host the Archive, so she killed herself.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 15, 2020, 05:27:50 AM
So, I've just reread the scene in PT when Harry first sees Ivy after a long time. I was wrong. He explicitly wonders where Kinkaid is and he tries to catch Ivy's gaze, but with no luck (he says that she did not see him or ignored him, I bet is the latter). So, all makes more sense. Harry is normal, and oblivious of all the pain he brought Ivy and Kinkaid. Ivy is probably avoiding him, probably because she is angry.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 15, 2020, 06:31:11 AM
So, I've just reread the scene in PT when Harry first sees Ivy after a long time. I was wrong. He explicitly wonders where Kinkaid is and he tries to catch Ivy's gaze, but with no luck (he says that she did not see him or ignored him, I bet is the latter). So, all makes more sense. Harry is normal, and oblivious of all the pain he brought Ivy and Kinkaid. Ivy is probably avoiding him, probably because she is angry.

I wouldn't call it oblivious to the pain if he doesn't know about it, and who'd have told him?  Ivy was in full Archive mode, as such, she would ignore Harry, you will notice she showed no emotion when she was a "lawn mower" against the Fomor when she mowed them down.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 15, 2020, 06:35:55 AM
I agree about Ivy, but that is not explicitly stated in the books. My post was about what I just read in the test. And yes, in BG is textual (literal) that she shows no emotion. But why? Everybody can have an opinion.

And forgive my English, I meant Harry was unaware of the problems his suicide caused between Ivy and Kinkaid. I think he had guessed Ivy did not know about what happened. Still, I said before that Harry is a lousy friend, specially with Ivy. He only needed to write her a not every month or so and things would have been completely different.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 15, 2020, 12:20:43 PM
Quote

And forgive my English, I meant Harry was unaware of the problems his suicide caused between Ivy and Kinkaid. I think he had guessed Ivy did not know about what happened. Still, I said before that Harry is a lousy friend, specially with Ivy. He only needed to write her a not every month or so and things would have been completely different.

Your English is better than mine and English is my first language!  Suicides are unaware of the pain they cause others, just their own pain.  Harry was isolated from Chicago for a year when Mab would not let him contact anyone, and he was pretty busy the rest of the time, Ivy isn't someone he saw every day, nor Kincaid, so how would he know?
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 15, 2020, 01:13:15 PM
Your English is better than mine and English is my first language!  Suicides are unaware of the pain they cause others, just their own pain.  Harry was isolated from Chicago for a year when Mab would not let him contact anyone, and he was pretty busy the rest of the time, Ivy isn't someone he saw every day, nor Kincaid, so how would he know?
He could guess but he was too busy with himself. It is one of his problems.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 15, 2020, 01:48:53 PM
Still, I said before that Harry is a lousy friend, specially with Ivy. He only needed to write her a not every month or so and things would have been completely different.

On this point I whole heartedly agree!!! The list of examples is very long.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 15, 2020, 02:22:20 PM
On this point I whole heartedly agree!!! The list of examples is very long.

Yes, but he was in a coma for six months, then dealing with Maeve, then confined to Demonreach for the next year where Mab practically kept him incommunicado, I think he only got a couple of visits from Thomas and Murphy and those stopped because of the vibes the island was putting off.. Then the events from Skin Game, Maggie coming to live with him, his romance with Murphy, and still trying to manage the mantle.  So not saying you are wrong, but at the same time it is understandable as to why he wasn't jotting a note off to Ivy.

Quote
He could guess but he was too busy with himself. It is one of his problems.

So for a year and a half, he couldn't communicate even if he wanted to.  Then there was that little crisis with Maeve, the one that could have blown up Chicago and beyond, and the events of Skin Game and learning to live with a ten year old child you really don't know.  I guess you could say he was too busy with himself..

Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 15, 2020, 03:01:59 PM
Yes, but he was in a coma for six months, then dealing with Maeve, then confined to Demonreach for the next year where Mab practically kept him incommunicado, I think he only got a couple of visits from Thomas and Murphy and those stopped because of the vibes the island was putting off.. Then the events from Skin Game, Maggie coming to live with him, his romance with Murphy, and still trying to manage the mantle.  So not saying you are wrong, but at the same time it is understandable as to why he wasn't jotting a note off to Ivy.

So for a year and a half, he couldn't communicate even if he wanted to.  Then there was that little crisis with Maeve, the one that could have blown up Chicago and beyond, and the events of Skin Game and learning to live with a ten year old child you really don't know.  I guess you could say he was too busy with himself..
He could have written sorry in the sand for Ivy.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 15, 2020, 04:10:55 PM
Yes, but he was in a coma for six months, then dealing with Maeve, then confined to Demonreach for the next year where Mab practically kept him incommunicado, I think he only got a couple of visits from Thomas and Murphy and those stopped because of the vibes the island was putting off.. Then the events from Skin Game, Maggie coming to live with him, his romance with Murphy, and still trying to manage the mantle.  So not saying you are wrong, but at the same time it is understandable as to why he wasn't jotting a note off to Ivy.

So for a year and a half, he couldn't communicate even if he wanted to.  Then there was that little crisis with Maeve, the one that could have blown up Chicago and beyond, and the events of Skin Game and learning to live with a ten year old child you really don't know.  I guess you could say he was too busy with himself..

A couple of counter points:
Thomas puts this into prospective on the Blue Beetle, Harry could have found a way even from the NeverNever.
People dedicate time to things they want or the reverse, people can find any excuse to avoid things they don't want to do.
All of those things you listed are only excuses and we all know about excuses.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 15, 2020, 04:42:42 PM
Some are and some are not. Mab really isolated him on that island and he was dead for a while. He was outsmarted by Mab.

But he could have send a message to Ivy and he had some time after cold days to contact people. His emotional state was not helping him though.

But now as a knight in a castle he has to try salvaging what is left of his contacts.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 15, 2020, 05:59:56 PM


   If he wasn't contacting either Murphy or Thomas much when he was on the island, says he wasn't. He was also trying to understand the system, and had this thing in his head that caused him lots of pain to the point of passing out.  So a lot of reasons, for him not to contact her, when she ignored him, he seemed to understand, and from then on he simply called her the Archive.


 
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Bad Alias on October 15, 2020, 07:41:45 PM
I can only think of a few reasons for him to have not contacted her.

1. He didn't consider his actions impact on her.
2. He did and was avoiding owning up to it.
3. He assumed she knew he was alive because she's the Archive and didn't think he needed to say anything.

I don't think any of these reflect well on Harry. I don't think that his plate was full was an excuse. He had plenty of time to write her a quick note. I do understand why he would avoid it. Shame is a powerful emotion.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 15, 2020, 07:58:07 PM
I can only think of a few reasons for him to have not contacted her.

1. He didn't consider his actions impact on her.
2. He did and was avoiding owning up to it.
3. He assumed she knew he was alive because she's the Archive and didn't think he needed to say anything.

I don't think any of these reflect well on Harry. I don't think that his plate was full was an excuse. He had plenty of time to write her a quick note. I do understand why he would avoid it. Shame is a powerful emotion.

I don't think it ever occurred to him that he meant that much to Ivy. However if you believe Luccio, the fact that Harry didn't write to her, which could be called distancing himself, would be the best for Ivy.  Also in the settings they were in, the Archive is seen and must be seen as a neutral force, so even saying "hi" to Harry could be misinterpreted as favoritism by other Accord members.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 15, 2020, 08:14:41 PM
Your English is better than mine and English is my first language!  Suicides are unaware of the pain they cause others, just their own pain.  Harry was isolated from Chicago for a year when Mab would not let him contact anyone, and he was pretty busy the rest of the time, Ivy isn't someone he saw every day, nor Kincaid, so how would he know?
Not true, but thank you  :)
That is what I meant, Mira. Of course he has not way to know unless he called her or something. I just meant that he does not know what happened between I and K, not that he did not care or anything. Only that he did not know.

But about the rest of the comments, I may understand Harry being isolated of some friends but Ivy is the worse case. I see no reason not to write her a note every few weeks. I mean, it is true that perhaps he did not realize how that would be important for Ivy, but that makes him well, not very bright, and frankly insensitive.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Bad Alias on October 15, 2020, 08:15:44 PM
I don't think it ever occurred to him that he meant that much to Ivy.
I think SmF says otherwise.

However if you believe Luccio, the fact that Harry didn't write to her, which could be called distancing himself, would be the best for Ivy.
Again, I think SmF shows Harry disagrees.

Also in the settings they were in, the Archive is seen and must be seen as a neutral force, so even saying "hi" to Harry could be misinterpreted as favoritism by other Accord members.
I'm not talking about them interacting at the peace talks. I'm talking about Harry never saying anything to her after he came back from the dead.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 15, 2020, 08:21:10 PM
I think Harry's just being his usual big ol dumb self and not thinking about it. He doesn't truly see the consequences of his actions... Part of why he's going to go through the MM world story wise I think.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 15, 2020, 08:21:51 PM
*crosses fingers*
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Bad Alias on October 15, 2020, 08:22:53 PM
@The_Sibelis: Yeah.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 16, 2020, 12:20:27 AM
But about the rest of the comments, I may understand Harry being isolated of some friends but Ivy is the worse case. I see no reason not to write her a note every few weeks. I mean, it is true that perhaps he did not realize how that would be important for Ivy, but that makes him well, not very bright, and frankly insensitive.

This is something that I have also felt. More so with the last two books. My desire each time I dig into a DF book is that this is the one Harry will have that epiphany which grows him out of what I hope is immatureness and into .... well better. We are 17 books into his character development and JB is closer to writing a narcissistic villain than a flawed Batman/Spiderman type hero.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 16, 2020, 06:05:48 AM
This is something that I have also felt. More so with the last two books. My desire each time I dig into a DF book is that this is the one Harry will have that epiphany which grows him out of what I hope is immatureness and into .... well better. We are 17 books into his character development and JB is closer to writing a narcissistic villain than a flawed Batman/Spiderman type hero.

I don't think that will happen, simply because Harry is a parent now.  He wants to be a good parent, he also has Michael mentoring him on that subject.  A good parent cannot be immature nor narcissistic.  Reread Christmas Eve.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 16, 2020, 02:03:52 PM
I don't think that will happen, simply because Harry is a parent now.  He wants to be a good parent, he also has Michael mentoring him on that subject.  A good parent cannot be immature nor narcissistic.  Reread Christmas Eve.

Thank you for the advise on rereading but I already have several times and am still allowed to have/express my counter opinion.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 16, 2020, 03:42:31 PM
Thank you for the advise on rereading but I already have several times and am still allowed to have/express my counter opinion.

Of course, as do we all, and you still could be right about how Harry turns out in the end.  However it is very clear in Christmas Eve, that Harry wants to be a good parent to Maggie.  It is also clear that Michael is his role modal as to what a good father should be and how one should act.  Parents everywhere are flawed human beings, but a consistently good parent, isn't immature nor narcissistic.
It may happen sometimes,but they fight it.  Harry knows it isn't all about him, he wants to bring joy to little Maggie so he continues the frustrating job of the bike assembly and finds the reward there.  It isn't just Murphy's death that he is grieving, it is for all those who had died and got hurt.  He felt their pain when they fought under his banner, he felt their deaths, I believe that too has changed him..  Yes, he will always be a smart ass, because that is who he is, a smart ass, however I think we will find him less immature in the future applying it.  He is all about his daughter, he knows he has been arrogant, he knows it isn't all about him, and he is striving to do better..  So maybe you don't have hope for Harry, but I do, or have hope that he is headed in the right direction.   
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: StrayDog on October 16, 2020, 04:17:49 PM
Of course, as do we all, and you still could be right about how Harry turns out in the end.  However it is very clear in Christmas Eve, that Harry wants to be a good parent to Maggie.  It is also clear that Michael is his role modal as to what a good father should be and how one should act.  Parents everywhere are flawed human beings, but a consistently good parent, isn't immature nor narcissistic.
It may happen sometimes, but they fight it.  Harry knows it isn't all about him, he wants to bring joy to little Maggie so he continues the frustrating job of the bike assembly and finds the reward there.  It isn't just Murphy's death that he is grieving, it is for all those who had died and got hurt.  He felt their pain when they fought under his banner, he felt their deaths, I believe that too has changed him..  Yes, he will always be a smart ass, because that is who he is, a smart ass, however I think we will find him less immature in the future applying it.  He is all about his daughter, he knows he has been arrogant, he knows it isn't all about him, and he is striving to do better..  So maybe you don't have hope for Harry, but I do, or have hope that he is headed in the right direction.

I don't imagine any parent wanting to be a bad parent, every one wants to be the best there is. If they are insane, would they know it? The "Hero's Journey" is always to goal of every author too. My point is that JB seems a bit long in having Harry come to that important realization in his life where he understands that his attitude is only cool to him, ie he succeeds in spite of his mouth, not because of it. Michael is a good role model, has Michael been taken by Nemesis though?
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 16, 2020, 04:38:17 PM
I don't imagine any parent wanting to be a bad parent, every one wants to be the best there is. If they are insane, would they know it? The "Hero's Journey" is always to goal of every author too. My point is that JB seems a bit long in having Harry come to that important realization in his life where he understands that his attitude is only cool to him, ie he succeeds in spite of his mouth, not because of it. Michael is a good role model, has Michael been taken by Nemesis though?

I very much doubt that,  I don't think Michael's angelgoonsquad would allow that.  I think Harry is beginning to realize that he attitude is only cool to him.  As to parents, if asked, no, nobody wants to be a bad parent, but there are sure a lot of them out there, ranging from abusive to indifferent and  over indulgent.. Being a good parent takes work.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 16, 2020, 07:45:53 PM
A lot of work. That is one of my reasons for hating Maggie's existence. She has changed Harry (as she should). As Mira says, he is now more mature and less narcissistic. He is becoming a better man. But one that is less fun to read about.

I don't think Michael is nemfected either. In fact, I suspect that the fact that Molly can enters the home is a hint that she is not nemfected.

I am wondering if there is a way to detect nemfections. Soulgazes? the Sight? Mouse? Can any of those detect it?
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 16, 2020, 08:12:07 PM
A lot of work. That is one of my reasons for hating Maggie's existence. She has changed Harry (as she should). As Mira says, he is now more mature and less narcissistic. He is becoming a better man. But one that is less fun to read about.

I don't think Michael is nemfected either. In fact, I suspect that the fact that Molly can enters the home is a hint that she is not nemfected.

I am wondering if there is a way to detect nemfections. Soulgazes? the Sight? Mouse? Can any of those detect it?

Mouse may be able to figure it out.  Harry has figured it out at least twice now, but he is still very slow.  Like Justine, he knew something was off about her when he went to tell her about Thomas. The he also says only a mortal can call up Outsider corner hounds, but the only "mortals" in the area besides himself and Eb were Justine and the doorman.  He made the wrong assumption about what Thomas was trying to tell him.  He had the dots, but was so distracted by everything he couldn't connect them.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 16, 2020, 09:51:52 PM
First, I understood that Justine lived in a building, with several apartments and presumably people living in them. But besides that, who says there was a person in the street, or in another house? We don't know how big of the range, right? I mean, how close needs to be the summoner from its summoning. I think if it was so easy, Eb would have realized that much before Harry.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: whitelaughter on October 17, 2020, 01:12:44 AM
The story takes place during Changes. Ivy tells Kincaid to shoot Dresden in the chest or she'll come for him. She did that so that Harry had a chance.
Yes, but not 'a chance'. She's the Archive. She would know how Mab and Boney would respond.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Mira on October 17, 2020, 03:28:18 AM
First, I understood that Justine lived in a building, with several apartments and presumably people living in them. But besides that, who says there was a person in the street, or in another house? We don't know how big of the range, right? I mean, how close needs to be the summoner from its summoning. I think if it was so easy, Eb would have realized that much before Harry.

True, but 1] Harry was a bit taken aback by Justine's initial reaction to the news.  Not that he's had a lot of experience breaking bad news to people, but something seemed off about it. However because of time and other pressures he dropped it. 2] While you are right there could of and should of been several people about, Harry only mentions two, Justine and the doorman.  I think he scanned the doorman with his wizard's sight, but I could be wrong about that.  That leaves Justine, who he didn't scan, the assumption being, she is an innocent bystander and victim, which turned out not to be true.  He also takes note, that it takes a mortal to call up and Outsider corner hound.. And of course another Outsider could do it.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 17, 2020, 03:43:21 AM
I agree about 1 and yes, Harry Sighted the doorman, he was clean. I don't think an outsider can summon another outsider.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Arjan on October 17, 2020, 05:48:11 AM
I agree about 1 and yes, Harry Sighted the doorman, he was clean. I don't think an outsider can summon another outsider.
But an infected or possessed mortal probably can.
Title: Re: Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry
Post by: Dina on October 17, 2020, 08:59:55 AM
Ah yes, you are right.