Show Posts
This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
The best lack all conviction, while the worstHarry admits to having little faith, save in his magic...
Are full of passionate intensity.
All the examples of whispering Vairelome posted happen after White Night. After Lash has sacrificed herself. After Lasciel's coin was dug up from its place in Harry's basement. Lasciel found out what had happened either at the moment the circle was broken (since Lash is still there she'd have had a link, albeit a weak one) or after she was recovered by Nicodemus (if she was).
JB is referring to the proverb, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." The clear implication is that Lasciel has discovered that her shadow has failed in its mission--to get Harry to claim Lasciel's coin--and is furious at Harry's rejection of her. IF she is aware that her shadow not only failed, but also switched teams and is not "dead," then Mira is right in that Lasciel would be furious at Lash as well as Harry. (There's a chance that Lasciel was told that her shadow had been somehow destroyed, and has not yet found out otherwise. Certainly, once she discovers the truth about Lash, Lash will be right at the top of Lasciel's hit list.)Exactly, added to that, one of the shadow's fears until she became Lash was death. She openly admitted, Harry dies she dies as well, part of trying to get Harry to take up the coin in White Night was for her own survival. And yes, Lasciel would maybe want to wipe out Lash even more than Harry. Because Lash was part of her, and she betrayed her by taking up Harry's interest over hers. Also, Lasciel might know if Lash wasn't completely dead, even if Bob thought she was. We do have that quiet whisper in White Night that says that Lash might have survived.
I don't see why Lasciel would want to destroy Harry in the first place. She's the Web Weaver, the Deceiver, she's been around since the dawn of time. She isn't human, in any sense of the word. All that Harry has done so far is proven himself to be more powerful than any other host that she has ever dealt with. Keep in mind the sense of scope we're talking about here: Since the dawn of time, Harry is the only one to have not taken up the coin already.But she is totally pissed, her own shadow betrayed her, her own shadow was changed by Harry, by her love for him. Lasciel doesn't want any part of Harry any longer unless it would be to twist the knife in his gut and cause him more pain.. However she cannot do that unless he agrees to take up the coin. If that was her aim, the time to seduce him with that was when he was flat on his back with no hope of saving little Maggie. However she didn't go for that, she went for, "and it is all your fault.." Best revenge Harry crippled with the knowledge he daughter died and he was helpless to save her.. Or she understood the spell that the Red King was going for, and figured Harry would die anyway, with the agony that he couldn't save his little girl on his mind. She underestimated Harry, he did figure a way, I do not think she figured on Uriel taking counter measures when she whispered those words.
Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry? Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him. The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait.
How do you know this? We've presented a reasonably compelling argument that Lasciel had in fact been whispering to Harry over a period of time before he broke his back. There were certainly several other large factors that contributed to Harry's very painful overall situation, but I don't see why you're assuming that Lasciel's whisper was a one-time event when there is evidence to the contrary.No, we have no facts, it is never said that it was, those are merely guesses. Since Lasciel's shadow had been doing all of the whispering and she got transformed back in White Night, she also got transformed into Lash by her love for Harry. She became independent of Lasciel, there is evidence shortly after in White Night when she says "all that I can my host..." after Harry plays and just before he digs up the coin and gives to to Father Forthill, that Lash whispered to Harry. That wasn't Lasciel, we also have the WOJ if you believe him that the only appearance of Lasciel after that was in Changes.
.Oh Lasciel did appear in Changes and was the whispering shadow we see in GS. My argument is she is not the one who is whispering anything to Harry in Turn Coat.. There is no evidence of it.
It sounds like you are making an argument here that Lasciel wasn't the whispering shadow. If that's your argument, and if you're right, where did Lasciel appear in GS?
Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry? Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him. The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait.Except back in Death Masks through to that point in White Night, she was trying to seduce Harry to take up the coin.. He didn't, in the cave in White Night, her shadow tried desperately to get Harry to take up the coin, to save both their lives. Harry refused.. Then Lasciel becoming Lash, says " she doesn't deserve you." At that moment the fallen angel Lasciel became the woman scorned. Not just by Harry, but by her own shadow because of Harry. At that point she wanted them both dead. And yeah, revenge is a dish best served cold.. She waited, till Harry reached his lowest point, along with facts he could not argue against.. 1] he was helpless. 2] He was little Maggie's father, while how she got into trouble maybe wasn't his fault, the fact that she was in the world, was. "And it is all your fault.." Those are not the words of seduction, those are the words of revenge.
The underlined phrasing is consistent with the description of the examples Salacia gave in the original post. "whispered a quiet voice in my head," "a voice somewhere within the storm of my chest whispered," "whispered a voice in the back of my head," and "said the little sane voice in my head" all have some combination of the specific phrases "whisper[ed/ing]," "voice," and "in my head." In each case, the content of the whisper is something that would induce despair or self-destructive action on Harry's part, consistent with the eventual effect of the whispering shadow's seven words.Except that in the final page when he buries the coin, he talks about what he is doing to combat the whisper, there is also a sense of determination to bury the coin. If it was inducing despair or self destruction, it wasn't at that moment.. On the contrary, we see the character and strength with in Harry that ultimately lead to his rejection of it even in the face of madness or death in White Night.
I remember there being communication on some level, though, because Harry found it difficult to bury the coin due to Lasciel's influence. I'd have to re-read the scene to sort it all out.Actually if you read the end of Death Masks, Harry had no trouble at all burying the coin. The coin did whisper softly, "Harry," but Harry sang songs to himself to counter it as he chipped away the concrete to dig the hole to bury it, then he put a magic ring around it and the whispering was cut off.. However it wasn't as effective as Harry thought it would be, because in Dead Beat, Lasciel had broken through as Shelia..
Hmm, I seem to have phrased my point poorly. I didn't mean that the content of the italicized part was telling, I meant that its description was telling.
Because you need your brother to be all right, whispered a quiet voice in my head.
Given the significance of mental manipulation in the series, and specifically the nature of the Lasciel/Lash plotline, we should not quickly dismiss "a quiet voice whispering in Harry's head" as merely being part of Harry's normal internal thought processes.
I don't remember examples from Storm Front (or other books) where we're told "a quiet voice whispered in Harry's head," and we were meant to conclude that this was Harry thinking to himself. Can you provide examples from the text?
This was from the first post in this thread, and it's part of Salacia's theory that the whispering shadow revealed in GS wasn't the first time Lasciel had whispered in Harry's head, it was just the time with the biggest effect.I respectfully disagree, I believe you are reading too much into it. Actually there are examples all though the series, going back as far as Storm Front where Harry talks to himself in exactly that tone.
And the voice causes Harry momentary despair.
The italicized bit is rather telling, I think. Salacia searched for similar phrasing, and only found that line in TC and a few specific lines in Changes, which would fit the timeline I suggested above. Re-read her post at the beginning of this thread; it's quite well done.
That doesn't mean that Nicodemus/Anduriel would know about Lasciel's revenge plot against Harry. At the end of SmF, Harry told Nicodemus, "Lasciel's shadow doesn't live here anymore." We find out later that Harry was wrong about this, but it was what Harry believed at the time, and I'm quite sure Nicodemus was able to note Harry's sincerity. I think it's pretty likely that if Harry actually had found a way to permanently remove Lasciel's shadow, that would have the effect of breaking his connection to Lasciel's coin, possibly by severing the principle of contagion permitting Lasciel's whispering communication. If Nicodemus compromised Church security (...again...) and stole the coin, Lasciel may well have decided not to tell Nicodemus that her line of communication with Harry was back open--we're told that Lasciel and Anduriel generally don't work together.
Depriving Heaven is a great motivation, but wouldn't it be better in the long run for her side to turn Dresden? The delicious pain from having him lose everything he holds dear, from constantly forcing him into having to choose between bad and worse, and of him having to watch helplessly as he slides further and further away from what make him Harry is a far better punishment. It'd be like Vader Syndrome, in reverse.Except she didn't succeed, Harry dug up the coin and had Father Forthill take it away. Harry resisted the shadow and rejected the coin successfully, we have the word of Uriel on that. That is why he was gifted with Soul Fire. There was a female voice sometimes in
To me, if Lasciel were really behind those voices, she would want to turn the knife in his belly for decades at least and really make those decades absolute torture for him for having the gall to think he could not only defy, but in a way defeat, one of the witnesses to Creation itself. Dresden is a wizard, and with their enhanced lifespans, she could stretch that torture out for centuries if she did it right. Nicodemus was hesitant to give Lasciel to Dresden, not only because she didn't always follow his lead, but because she was at least powerful enough to oppose him if she so chose. That would put her probably in the top 5 of the most powerful Fallen. With great power usually comes great ego, and for an affront to her like what Dresden did, the only viable solution for her would be a very long period of very awful torture. Not a few whispers of despair to convince him to kill himself a few short years of relative peace afterward. Actually, given that the words usually galvanized Harry into taking necessary actions, it almost seems like the work of Lash, taking on the role of that drill sergeant/high school football coach who likes to call people maggots and worthless and weak as motivation to prove him wrong.
You don't treat Bob's reaction at the end of SmF - directly warning Harry that Uriel is not a nice guy - as relevant information, then ?