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Messages - Mira

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6826
DF Spoilers / Re: Sue's Reappearance (a tiny problem)
« on: September 05, 2018, 03:08:25 PM »
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Both of these would work fine on summoning an apparition, like corpsetaker did. For raising a zombie, he needs the actual body and bones, which, based on everything we've seen so far in the series, he can't translocate magically.
Besides, where's the fun in that? More mayhem, wanton destruction and gratuitous violence please. :D

Need to go back and reread the passage when Harry does animate Sue, but at the time of the writing of Dead Beat, Sue's bones were less freed from their stone coffin than they are now..  Okay
just reread the passage and Butters remarks about the total wreckage of the front door that apparently Sue has just rumbled through.... So why would it be any different if he did it again?

6827
DF Spoilers / Re: Sue's Reappearance
« on: September 04, 2018, 07:17:19 PM »
Well, he can still take Sue out for a walk. The museum doesn't have to be standing afterwards :D



Things haven't changed since the last time he took her out for a walk...  Maybe he only needs to drag her pinky finger outside, put the incantation on it and the rest of her, live, in living color appears?

6828
DF Spoilers / Re: The Gatekeeper
« on: August 31, 2018, 09:55:04 PM »
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You can actually find Warden and Gatekeeper in synonym and older descriptions. I'd say the same thing exists for the GK as the Warden, options.

I actually think you are on to something from the description of what he was doing when Mother Summer took Harry to go visit the Outer Gates and the Rashid..  He appears to be a general leading the troops of Winter in protecting or guarding the Gates.  His real purpose apparently is on a need to know basis and most of the Senior Council let alone the Council as a whole doesn't need to know.

6829
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Marcone have recruited another wizard?
« on: August 29, 2018, 11:27:22 AM »
Marcone wanted Dresden to work for him, and it didn't work out.  He eventually got Gard.  As talented as she is, she still isn't a wizard who has access to different forms of power.  Do you think that Marcone may have a wizard on his payroll?  If so, who?  I'm wondering if Elaine could be.

  I am sure that he tried, and we may eventually find out that he did...

6830
DF Spoilers / Re: Zoo Day spoilers
« on: August 28, 2018, 02:28:18 PM »



   I don't think Austin can be classified as wizard or sorcerer yet...  He hasn't any training one way or  another, even if self taught as Vincent Sells was, training/research is involved to become a sorcerer... He is on the verge of becoming a warlock though if he isn't already one from misusing his awakening talents and being used not trained to those ends...

6831
DF Spoilers / Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« on: August 23, 2018, 11:09:42 AM »
Mouse came into Harry's life around a year after he torched Bianca's place, though. If he was stained from burning a bunch of teenage vampire groupies who were unconscious but still alive, Morgan and the rest of the hardliners would have had plenty of time to notice it on him.

No, he came the same year... Remember Harry sitting on his sofa in pain from his badly burned hand listening to Eb with baby Mouse sitting next to him trying to give comfort..

6832
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: August 11, 2018, 11:08:56 AM »
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Langtry's interpretation of the council's 7 laws tends to be all inclusive. All "Time magic" are forbidden and presumed tainting. All "Mind magic" are band and considered black magic. Facts in the series however gave us different signals. As early as book 4, when Elaine casted the mind fog spell, we should have known this is coming. Harry say the magic is illegal, but Elaine does not seem to be turning warlock anytime soon.

However we haven't seen her in several books...  Harry still loves her to some degree so he isn't the best judge, so it could go either way, Elaine may very well have turned into a warlock.

6833
DF Spoilers / Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
« on: August 09, 2018, 07:03:04 PM »
Thomas managed a fairly complicated tracking spell under tutelage of Bob but with his own power. It was a tracking spell more complicated than his own tracking spell. Butters only did a circle. The other things he did were not just done by Bob but also powered by Bob.

Thomas definitely inherited some of his mothers talent, he just didn't do that much with it.

I seem to remember Thomas saying that a tracking spell isn't that difficult... 

6834
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: August 09, 2018, 07:01:40 PM »
How though?  Magic that corrupts the wizard travels through them.  You could actually see the Blackstaff removing it from Eb.  How could it corrupt them?  It's not about corruption like a vanilla person becoming worse by acts of violence.  Does abusing potions literally transform the wizard into a warlock, creating insanity?  I don't see it.

  I think it could, key word here is, abusing potions.   First of all you have to ask yourself, what kind of wizard would do that or feel the need to do that?  Point being if he or she is willing to cross the line in that way, it is possible that he or she may be willing to do it in other ways... Like beginning with magic that isn't quite black, but not white either..  As Harry has often pointed out doing so is addictive..  Though I admit the potion in of itself won't lead the wizard down the primrose path to warlockhood...

6835
DF Spoilers / Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
« on: August 09, 2018, 02:35:50 PM »
Thomas can use magic as shown in the short story Backup, he just is not as good as Harry and did not spend much effort training.

He can do a tracking spell though.

  Thomas can, but the magic he did employ didn't go too far beyond what most vanilla humans can do.. Butters under Harry's direction achieved pretty much the same in Dead Beat... However a little talent can go a long way if one chooses the dark path as we saw in Storm Front with Victor eventually becoming a sorcerer...

6836
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: August 09, 2018, 02:32:11 PM »
I don't see how.  Here are what the laws prevent:

Working with Outsiders (obvious reasons here)
Altering time (Obvious reasons here)
Magic that corrupts a wizard (killing, mind rape ect)

Does making/using a love potion fall under any of these?  I don't think so.  Harry mixed some ingredients together, and then use magical energy to activate them.  It didn't require any desire to do harm or anything like that.  Making the potion isn't corrupting from the way the book described it and therefore isn't going to push a wizard into becoming a warlock.  It doesn't mess with time, or Outsiders either.  Therefore I don't see how the potion or it's use violates the laws.

  The same way any laws prevent, depends on the punishment for that deters from breaking it.... More or less...

Decapitation is a pretty good determent, but it isn't perfect as we know..

On the surface I'd agree that making a potion in of itself doesn't turn someone into a warlock... However using the old slippery slope argument or gateway argument, eventually it could.  No, making potions in of itself doesn't break laws or as you say, mess with time or get one to work with Outsiders.. But I think it may depend off how they are being used, if they are overly used to reach a goal.  I seem to remember at some point Harry saying that potions can be a lazy way to get somewhere..  If that is true, it has that in common with black magic which offers an easier way or more bang for the buck so to speak to get where you want to go..  So like anything making potions or most potions doesn't violate the Seven Laws, however abuse of them could...  For the lazy wizard it presents a temptation.. 

6837
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: August 08, 2018, 04:48:40 PM »
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If so, then Morgan (who at the time was always looking for a reason to harass Harry) would have harassed Harry about the woman who had just drunk and purged a love potion.

I maintain that vomiting up the love potion didn't completely purge it from Susan's system, based on the premise that it enters the bloodstream as quickly as alcohol does.

If Morgan had known about it he very well may have tried to get Harry on that charge... Again back to the serial rapist thing, if Harry had gone around physically overpowering women and raping them the Council might not take notice... However if he used a magically brewed potion to overcome them and have sex against their will, they might...  Just making the magical potion might not be a violation, but using it to force one's will on another could very well be.
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Mine was excitable, you know, cause I had a recent woj nobody here had probably read directly from Jim's profile... Yours came with these morality questions I'm not here to discuss. I'm here to discuss the violation or potential of it in the fictional DF verse of a fictional universal law that only loosely is based upon real world morality as we know it, and is in fact intentionally set separately of it in the story in it's inception, not saying that's correct, but it's what IS.

So was mine,you yelled, I yelled back,  but again you are wrong in the sense that one cannot separate real world morality questions from the DF universe..   Things might be written a bit different, however notice the First Law of Magic, the one about killing with magic... It may be a bit different from vanilla human law, and as you say, they might not blink at a wizard killing people by other means... However they do draw the line at doing it with magic.  Why? Dead is dead, does it matter how the victim was killed?  Apparently to the White Council it does, in their opinion magic should not be perverted in that way. That is a moral stand, remember what Harry said about his soul gaze with Eb, how it shaped his wielding of magic?  It was all about right and wrong, ethics etc, all moral stands and very much related to moral stands made in the real world.

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These really have no answers and are not germaine to the answer to this particular question, and I don't feel it's the responsibility of my particular viewpoint to solve these problems.
... Same as I realized the thing I was getting ready to bitch about(to Jim) was not that it didn't make sense but that I've experience just how unfair life can be in action to consequence and that had nothing to do with the particulars of the convo, but not knowing the consequences of any given action even through simple ignorance..(course the real question is why can the fae reach across the veil without doing harm to themselves internally)

Because the fae are not human in the sense that humans, including wizards are..  The problem with your simple ignorance argument is it blames the victim..  Yes, our decisions in life all lead to consequences.   Crossing a street, is a decision, deciding to use the crosswalk or not, looking both ways before or not, all have consequences..  However if out of the blue a speeding drunk driver hits and kills you, is it your fault for deciding to cross the street?  Maybe, but what of the drunk, does he or she deserve the lion's share of the responsibility?  Or are you better off never crossing the street in the first place because the risk is always present?  Of course one will do what one can to mitigate the consequences, if you look both ways, use a crosswalk, obey the traffic light, you have a reasonable expectation that if you obey the rules you  will do it safely..   As in if you are an innocent human minding your own business you have reasonable expectation that some wizard won't invade your mind without your permission... If he or she does, they are breaking one of the fundamental laws..  Then again, walking down the street one might not know there is a wizard walking behind who might invade your mind.. So your decision to walk on the street, should you stay home so your mind won't be invaded?  If it is, who bares the greater responsibility, you for going for a walk, or the wizard who messed with your mind?
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Behind that fundamental barrier, though, is your computer itself. Normally, you have it password protected, and yes, you can give someone else the password and they might well use it in an entirely benign way, but even then you're probably looking over their shoulder, wondering when's the last time you cleared your browsing history and hoping to God that they don't start their internet search with certain letters like "p."

If they don't know what they're doing, they might accidentally erase something you wanted to keep, or see something you wanted to keep private.

If they do know what they're doing, they could outright steal your files, change your settings or turn the whole thing into a brick.

Yup, and it's a crime.  Point being we all know the risks of using a computer, and most of us take steps to keep from being hacked..  Further if I chose to use a computer, unless I totally keep my head buried in the sand, I know there are privacy risks or worse doing that.  However I like using the computer, so I get the best protections I can get, I chose not to do some tasks on it even if quicker because the cost of the hack is too high...  But hacking can still happen, so I either totally refrain from using a computer and any other device that will connect me, or with precautions have a reasonable expectation that I can do it safely...  If someone hacks me, it is on them..
 

6838
DF Spoilers / Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« on: August 08, 2018, 12:01:36 PM »
Harry was not soul gazed by a majority of wizards during his trial because that would have brought a level of knowledge and understanding on both sides that was clearly not there in Summer Knight.

A soul gaze stays with you so you don’t want to look at warlocks more than necessary, it can give you some ugly memories that never disappear.

Yes to the second part, but the reason Harry wasn't soul gazed by the whole Council at his trial is the same reason Molly wasn't...  Protocol, the arresting warden does the soul gazing of the perp and testifies as to what he/she observed in that soul gaze.  Which, when you think about it opens another can of worms, interpretation is based on the mind and experience of the one doing the soul gazing.   

6839
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: August 08, 2018, 11:55:28 AM »
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Being ignorant of the existence of date rape seems to be a willful choice in ignorance. SO DUDE! I don't need that kinda opinionated vitriol flung my way thanks... on a topic that's not supposed to relate to real world morality, that's directly the point of contention that Margret had with them fyi.

Thou flungist DUDE thine way first, so it was merely flung back at thou.....

Who says it has to be date rape?  Fantasy is merely a reflection of real world morality, why then have the Seven Laws in the first place?  Mainly to keep those with magical powers from taking unfair advantage of vanilla humanity...   What was the Korean kid and Molly guilty of?  Messing over another wizard?  No, screwing with the minds of vulnerable vanilla humans...  Use of magic to kill is seen as a perversion of magic, seems to be a rather moral view of it to me...  Someone is just as dead if the means is with a gun or a fire spell..
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*you'll find it quite unprovable that wizards are not related to or capable of becoming the fae. Indeed Molly's latent heritage and magical ability coincide with the possibility.

That wasn't the point, the point being the fae are not subject to wizard law...  Molly may be the exception because she is a wizard and now is Winter Lady... However I doubt that anyone on the Council will test that out least they piss off the whole of the fae world by severing her lovely head from her body for breaking the 3rd Law..
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Since when does responsibility matter to the laws?  Harry could go on a raping spree and the White Council wouldn't care unless he violated the laws which the potions don't.

The laws aren't about morality. 

I'd argue that they would if he used magic in any way to do his raping..  Guns don't kill people, people using guns do argument applies here I believe...  Making a love potion isn't a violation of the
Law, but perhaps using one to alter another's mind without permission may be...

6840
DF Spoilers / Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« on: August 08, 2018, 04:01:10 AM »
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DUDE, hold up, cause I have a woj from FB about not knowing the consequences of your choices is a fact of life. Note that the fae enchant food all the time too...

But wizards are not the Fae, are they?  And DUDE, this smacks of blaming the victim.. I  don't think this is what Jim meant or would apply to someone unknowingly being drugged and raped..
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    Jim Butcher  Yeah, but all your choices count, man. Not just the ones where someone says, "Are you absolutely sure about your answer."

    Making a choice is stating who you are. Unequivocally. You can talk as much as you want about whatever goodness you want--your actions are what matter. Those choices, in some cases to /take lives/, weren't subconscious.

    Molly said, "I'm in line with Winter." A BUNCH of times. And making statements like that add up--not because you're initialing a point on a contract for a lawyer, but because you are /changing yourself/ by making choices like that.

    Creating life, ending life. Those are the heaviest hitting choices, the ones that truly matter, the ones that are irrevocable.

    Choosing not to be self-aware enough to own what you're doing is a choice as well. One Molly didn't make. She knew about bargains. She knew the score. She didn't know how deep was the water she was getting into, but she ran and jumped off the cliff.
While true, Molly made choices, she had some idea of what they were, but she chose not to think that there would be consequences down the road for accepting Lea's "training.."  Not the same at all as accepting a drink because you are thirsty or to be sociable without the anticipation that it might be drugged and you could end up having sex against your will.. Especially if you have no clue that the person you are with is capable of drugging that drink..  It isn't the same as drinking to the point of drunkenness, that is a choice..  But even the consequences of that are not totally the victim's fault in the eyes of the law..   

But let's go back to Molly's original choice, to go into the minds of her friends to "help" them stop their addiction...  Her friends did chose to take drugs to the point of doing physical harm to themselves.. However that did not acquit Molly from her choice to break the Law by entering their minds without their permission to alter them.  Her friend have to be responsible for their original choices, but so does Molly..

Yes, while it is a choice to accept a drink or to drink from a glass or cup handed to you, your responsibility... That doesn't get the one who drugged the drink in the first place to have sex against the other person's will off the hook in terms of responsibility.


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