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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: blackstaff67 on April 29, 2013, 12:47:51 PM
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Our game has come to the point where Denarians are putting in appearances. The True Believer in our group is tasked with defending Holy Site that's a nexus of ley lines that the Denarians would like to destroy/corrupt. Trouble is, as a group, we're not even Fully Submerged yet as characters: Wizard, Sorcerer, WCV (Despair), True Believer and a Wizard-Sniper (the latter getting his butt kicked by a BCV--moral: Don't leave the church!).
The group has nothing outside of the Trappings of Faith (holy water, etc.) to fight a Denarian should one show up and neither GM is comfortable calling in the Knights of the Cross as we feel the game should be about the PC's.
I proposed an IoP that only functions on/near the site and its ley lines that gradually loses power the further you got from it. It's basically equivalent to a Sword of the Cross with all its powers and limitations, save that
1) Wielder loses the +1 bonus away from the sight of the site or the ley lines feeding into it.
2) Beyond X number of miles if functions as a normal sword ("X" to be determined later). At that point the wielder is acting "off the clock" as it were.
Cost: -2 Refresh
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Sounds like a pretty decent catch to replace the normal one set on a sword of the cross. I wouldn't use a sword though - perhaps some other holy relic?
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Are you attached to the Sword/weapon idea? I only ask because it makes it limited to a single character that is "Wielding" it. If instead the IoP was some kind of Holy Relic or some such, it could provide an affect over the entire site that all the player could take advantage of. And if we are talking something that is particularly large, maybe a statue or blessed Cross or Saint's tomb or something, it would by nature be impractical to remove from the site so you wouldnt have to worry about those limitation mechanics.
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If you want to stick with a weapon, there's always the Spear of Destiny. Make the case that Golgotha was smack dab on top of a ley line and it should do the job.
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Are you attached to the Sword/weapon idea? I only ask because it makes it limited to a single character that is "Wielding" it. If instead the IoP was some kind of Holy Relic or some such, it could provide an affect over the entire site that all the player could take advantage of. And if we are talking something that is particularly large, maybe a statue or blessed Cross or Saint's tomb or something, it would by nature be impractical to remove from the site so you wouldnt have to worry about those limitation mechanics.
I think we can be flexible about the sword/weapon paradigm only because I'm not sure the TB wants to acquire an additional Aspect (as the weapon/sword concept would require). That said, we're kinda okay as a group if the item were designed for her in mind, as her High Concept is Defender of ("insert site name here") and could easily tie into that.
My thanks for everyone's input.
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I was pretty sure you have to take a related aspect with any Item of Power, weapon or not.
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I was pretty sure you have to take a related aspect with any Item of Power, weapon or not.
If the character's High Aspect is a Defender of that site specifically, wouldnt that satisfy the requirement for most any IoP that was specifically bound to protecting the Site?
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Sounds like a grey area to me.
If your High Concept is Knight of the Cross, for example, that doesn't mean you're off the hook when it comes to needing the aspect for whichever of the three swords you carry, even though as far as character concepts go, the Knights are inextricably tied to their swords.
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Then my though would be that it depends on the stated purpose of the IoP. If the IoP is specifically intended to defend the site, then Defender of the Site would be the be the logical aspect anyway. If on the other hand it has some other primary purpose and just happens to be useful in defending the site in this instance, it might require something else.
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Why not just stat out your IoP and add
+1 human form (only works within "x" miles of the site/or while on the site)
So it'd look like this:
Minoshepp Forest Sword of Defending (yay for tacky names!)
+2 (obvious)
+1 human form - only works while in the forest (affecting)
-1 True aim
-2 Inhuman str
-"X" etc...
This way, the draw-back is taken into consideration and it's defined. Depending on how limited it is, it might be worth +2 (involuntary form)
I'm going to echo Quantus in regards to the aspect:
Every item has a purpose. Only certain people can use IoP's and therefore, in order for the item to work for a person, they must have some aspect that reflects the items purpose.
Define the items purpose and then have the character take an aspect (or re-word an existing aspect to incorporate it.) They can always change that aspect at a minor milestone if they don't have access to the item.
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I'd use the Item Limitation Power, personally. Probably at the Severe level.
I think we can be flexible about the sword/weapon paradigm only because I'm not sure the TB wants to acquire an additional Aspect (as the weapon/sword concept would require).
You need as Aspect regardless. But there's no reason that your High Concept can't be that Aspect.
Every item has a purpose.
Where did you get that idea?
Nothing in any of the books indicates that.
If your High Concept is Knight of the Cross, for example, that doesn't mean you're off the hook when it comes to needing the aspect for whichever of the three swords you carry...
I think it does, actually.
The musts of the Swords Of The Cross are pretty clear: you need a High Concept or a Template and that's it. IoPs in general just require an Aspect, which need not be a High Concept, so that's actually harsher than the normal rule.
Still no mechanical cost, but the narrative limitation is bigger.
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If you want to look at it that way, sure. But Michael, Sanya, and Shiro all have Knight of the Cross as their High Concept, and another aspect that relates to their swords. That supports the argument that they still need to take an aspect for their IoP.
It would probably make things more clear if YS gave more IoP examples than just the swords, but I'd say that the Musts for the swords are in addition to the Musts for the IoP power.
It does limit the narrative more, but IoPs aren't like other abilities. They can be loaned out, and offer a massive discount on power cost. I think they're intended to be major focal points of stories.
Of course, your High Concept could be "Bearer of the Holy Spear", and that's fine. Knights of the Cross are different, though, I think, going by what's presented in YS and OW.
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The musts for the Swords include the musts for a generic IoP. You can't have an appropriate High Concept or Template without a High Concept directly related to the sword.
Of course, you can and likely will have another Aspect related to the item. It's just not mandatory.
It does limit the narrative more, but IoPs aren't like other abilities.
I meant that it limits the narrative more than other IoPs.
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The musts for the Swords include the musts for a generic IoP. You can't have an appropriate High Concept or Template without a High Concept directly related to the sword.
Do you have a page reference for that? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just honestly don't think that's correct and I think the characters in OW back up my interpretation.
Plus (and I hate getting into debates on semantics, but this is the only thing I can find that might address this point) the wording on the Musts for an IoP is "An aspect directly referencing the Item of Power is required." The High Concept "Knight of the Cross" does not directly reference the sword, but "Wielder of Amoraccius" does.
I meant that it limits the narrative more than other IoPs.
Ah, well yes, absolutely. And I think they should be more limiting in that regard.
Knights of the Cross are Special with a capital S. They aren't supposed to go hunting random vampires or investigating isolated hauntings. They're meant (in the sense of "this is their purpose and duty" not "they should never do anything else") for standing against the Denarians and the other enemies of God, defending free will and upholding God's plan. It makes sense that they, as PCs, are prone to more compels to steer them in that direction than other characters, and receive the additional Fate Points as a result.
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Do you have a page reference for that? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just honestly don't think that's correct and I think the characters in OW back up my interpretation.
Plus (and I hate getting into debates on semantics, but this is the only thing I can find that might address this point) the wording on the Musts for an IoP is "An aspect directly referencing the Item of Power is required." The High Concept "Knight of the Cross" does not directly reference the sword, but "Wielder of Amoraccius" does.
Ah, well yes, absolutely. And I think they should be more limiting in that regard.
Knights of the Cross are Special with a capital S. They aren't supposed to go hunting random vampires or investigating isolated hauntings. They're meant (in the sense of "this is their purpose and duty" not "they should never do anything else") for standing against the Denarians and the other enemies of God, defending free will and upholding God's plan. It makes sense that they, as PCs, are prone to more compels to steer them in that direction than other characters, and receive the additional Fate Points as a result.
Hence the new IoP. We felt what was needed was a way to combat the Baddies without a) bringing in the KotS or b) acquiring the High Aspect KotS, as the latter would remove local 'feel' for the game.
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Which is a great way to handle the issue, in my opinion. Variety is wonderful. Anything that adds more to a setting for the players to use is a good thing.
Have you decided what the item will actually be, yet?
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Thinking Mace or Spear. Clarifying on my last post, we wanted to avoid acquiring the Aspect KotS as that would logically require the PC to journey outside the local area; as a GM, that means either 1) a few solo sessions or b) dragging the party with her (Lots of Compels there, though!). It would also mean the TB acquiring Nicodemus "I like killing the Knights of the Sword" as a potential enemy...with only nine Refresh to gain powers/stunts, that fight wouild be rather short and final. Hence the new IoP, which IMO fills in rather elegantly.
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Absolutely. A holy item not tied to any worldly-travel duties is a good call to add that flavour you want to help take on a Denarian, without the character's focus shifting drastically.
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Our game has come to the point where Denarians are putting in appearances. The True Believer in our group is tasked with defending Holy Site that's a nexus of ley lines that the Denarians would like to destroy/corrupt. Trouble is, as a group, we're not even Fully Submerged yet as characters: Wizard, Sorcerer, WCV (Despair), True Believer and a Wizard-Sniper (the latter getting his butt kicked by a BCV--moral: Don't leave the church!).
The group has nothing outside of the Trappings of Faith (holy water, etc.) to fight a Denarian should one show up and neither GM is comfortable calling in the Knights of the Cross as we feel the game should be about the PC's.
I proposed an IoP that only functions on/near the site and its ley lines that gradually loses power the further you got from it. It's basically equivalent to a Sword of the Cross with all its powers and limitations, save that
1) Wielder loses the +1 bonus away from the sight of the site or the ley lines feeding into it.
2) Beyond X number of miles if functions as a normal sword ("X" to be determined later). At that point the wielder is acting "off the clock" as it were.
Cost: -2 Refresh
1. You could make the big bad for that adventure not a denarian but something like one of their chief minions. Someone who is high placed but not as high as actual denarians. Nicodemus's mortal champion or something like that.
2. I once played a character who's high concept was "Wanna-be Knight of the Cross". He was essentially a watered-down Knight. I created a "blessed" sword for him to use, called it the Sword of St. Peter and gave it the backstory that it was once the ceremonial sword used by St. Peter, the first Pope. It was passed down down father-to-son down through the ages and kept by a family of True Believers for centuries. This gave it power but not so much that it was on par with the Swords.
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Not to mention, while Nicodemus is the badass of badasses when it comes to the Denarians, he's unique in his immunity to harm. None of the other Denarians are described as having such protection, so while one would be tough in a fight, if the group approaches the challenge properly, they can certainly foil the Denarian's plans, even if they can't take it out in a straight fight.
What's that Harry says? "If you ever find yourself in a fair fight with someone, one of you has made a mistake."
Not having a holy weapon to hand just means the group can't trigger the Catch on the Denrian's Toughness powers.
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Another option is to grant the site itself a certain amount of innate power, perhaps fed by the ley lines and focused by the architecture of the temple itself, or through some specific statuary/cross/alter/etc. It would weaken the denarians, rather than strengthening a character. The difference being that its effect would be a passive, AoE thing, and not something that needs to be activated/wielded, and thus not requiring the standard IoP character requirements. Maybe it prevents the nickleheads from using their transformation abilities, or maybe it imposes a new Catch that the PCs can leverage to their advantage. Maybe it inhibits the control the Fallen can exert as they get closer to the center, so the denarians that are more dominating than partners with their host are suddenly not in control. Or maybe its not a blanket weakening, but the site is designed to support a ritual that, when triggered, does something appropriately dramatic to the denarians present, so that the site itself is a snare to trap them. Then you dont need to supercharge your PC's to the point where they can take denarians head on, instead they just need to maneuver and survive long enough to spring the trap, which then forcefully removes their coins or some such.
These are just thought on how to level the field and leverage the site, without resorting to IoP rules.
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Another option is to grant the site itself a certain amount of innate power, perhaps fed by the ley lines and focused by the architecture of the temple itself, or through some specific statuary/cross/alter/etc. It would weaken the denarians, rather than strengthening a character. The difference being that its effect would be a passive, AoE thing, and not something that needs to be activated/wielded, and thus not requiring the standard IoP character requirements. Maybe it prevents the nickleheads from using their transformation abilities, or maybe it imposes a new Catch that the PCs can leverage to their advantage. Maybe it inhibits the control the Fallen can exert as they get closer to the center, so the denarians that are more dominating than partners with their host are suddenly not in control. Or maybe its not a blanket weakening, but the site is designed to support a ritual that, when triggered, does something appropriately dramatic to the denarians present, so that the site itself is a snare to trap them. Then you dont need to supercharge your PC's to the point where they can take denarians head on, instead they just need to maneuver and survive long enough to spring the trap, which then forcefully removes their coins or some such.
These are just thought on how to level the field and leverage the site, without resorting to IoP rules.
And suddenly, I have ideas to integrate this into my game! Nice!
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Happy to help :)
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Do you have a page reference for that? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just honestly don't think that's correct and I think the characters in OW back up my interpretation.
Plus (and I hate getting into debates on semantics, but this is the only thing I can find that might address this point) the wording on the Musts for an IoP is "An aspect directly referencing the Item of Power is required." The High Concept "Knight of the Cross" does not directly reference the sword, but "Wielder of Amoraccius" does.
The Template requires an appropriate High Concept. Says so on page 74.
And being a Knight is totally a direct reference to having a sword.
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If you want to get really picky "Knight of the Cross" is actually not a template.
The template is "Champion of God", with the Item of Power "Sword of the Cross [-3]" added.
Unfortunately, the only examples of Champions of God are the three known Knights of the Cross.
To me this means that the High Concept "Knight of the Cross" satisfies the requirement of the Template, while the aspect "Wielder of X" satisfies the must of the IoP.
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Looks like we've both dug our heels on on this one. I really don't want to argue over the definition of what a "direct reference" is, so can we agree to disagree?
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No. Agreeing to disagree is silly.
You don't need my permission to disagree with me. Which is good, because I have no actual reason to give you that permission.
(I'm not saying we have to continue this argument forever, but if you want to stop arguing than you can just...stop arguing.)
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(I'm not saying we have to continue this argument forever, but if you want to stop arguing than you can just...stop arguing.)
That's what he was suggesting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agree_to_disagree). With, perhaps, a dose of tolerance on the side. ;)
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There's a difference between agreeing to disagree and just not talking anymore.
The difference is, the former involves a little ritual that I find annoying at best. It always seems at least mildly dishonest to me.
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If it makes you feel any better, I still think you're wrong, I'm just not going to try and convince you of it anymore ;)
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Excellent, So the intricacies of a KotC are set aside.
So Blackstaff, how do you think you will proceed? Are there any other avenues of Denarian survivability that you would like to explore?
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Every item has a purpose
Where did you get that idea?
I guess my statement wasn't exactly accurate. I get it from this:
YS 167
Simply possessing the Item of Power is not
enough to use the abilities. Rules must be
followed, bargains must be made. Work out
the particulars with the GM.
And under SotC pg. 168
Divine Purpose. A Sword of the Cross may
only be swung with true selfless purpose in
mind and heart; if this is not the case, the
bond between the Knight and the Sword is
broken and may only be restored by undergoing
some sort of trial of faith. When swung
without such purpose in mind and heart, the
blow does not land (any attack roll automatically
fails), the bond is immediately broken,
and the sword falls from the wielder’s hand.
Basically, the GM and player should look
at the description above as a guideline for
how to compel the high concept attached to
the sword—your character might be tempted
to use the sword for selfish reasons, and could
either receive a fate point to stay his hand
or succumb to the temptation and lose the
sword temporarily. If another takes up the
sword and swings it selfishly, your Knight is
still responsible for how the sword is used,
with similar repercussions.
The sword has a purpose and if your purpose for weilding it doesn't jive with its purpose, it won't work for you. This might not apply to all IoPs, I suppose.
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Excellent, So the intricacies of a KotC are set aside.
So Blackstaff, how do you think you will proceed? Are there any other avenues of Denarian survivability that you would like to explore?
I think Nicodemus would only be marginally interested/amused to see a Holy Site desecrated/destroyed/corrupted; I think it's more up the alley of either his wife or daughter (whichever one likes to see healthy things destroyed). With no KotC present, there will be less reason (we hope) for N. to take a personal interest and the party will "only" face the lesser Denarians.
Now all we need to do is keep the three ley lines leading to the holy site from being attacked/corrupted--I expect to fight "only" 2-3 Denarians. A True Believer with this IoP and two wizards plus backup should manage it (knock wood).
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Oh, wow. I thought you were only sending them up against one Denarian. 2-3 will make a pretty epic showdown, no matter how they play it.
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Just a note, the rules for Sponsored Magic give a +1 rebate if it's only usable within a certain specific area, so it would make a lot of sense to extend that to cover IoPs, which work on a similar principle.