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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: 123456789blaaa on May 15, 2013, 08:10:29 PM
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(I'm in a bit of a hurry right now so my thoughts will be a bit scrambled. I'll probably clean them up later)
Tehom is an ancient force of chaos and darkness in RL mythology that has connections to Abrahamic mythology. Some sources (thanks to Ms.Duck):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehom
http://anystrom.blogspot.com/2008/08/tehom-and-tiamat-concept-of-chaols-in.html
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3141790
http://archive.org/stream/babylonianinflu00palmgoog#page/n8/mode/2up
It was the primordial darkness before God said "let their be light". It resented the light so the "spirit of God" quelled the darkness and in the DV cast it out. My theory is that Tehom is actually the Outsiders. All of them.
Tehom being the Outsiders also explains how the Outsiders can be a hivemind and also explains HWWB's statement in Ghost Story:
"This isn't your world," I whispered.
"Not now," He Who Walks Behind murmured, its smile widening. "But it will be ours again in just a little time."
The Outsiders being associated with "voids" and "coldness" also meshes nicely with the primioridal darkness being them.
This theory also meshes nicely with mithrandirthewhite's theory that the Firmament = Outer Gates ( http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36172.msg1721369.html#msg1721369). In this theory the "flood" is actually the Outsiders/Tehom. The links I posted also say that Tehom fundamentally means “flood.”
It also explains why the Outsiders would want "Empty Night". They resent the creation of "light' (this may mean actuall light and/or mortals. I suspect the sky being starless at the Outer Gates means it is both symbolic and literal). The "stars" could also represent being with souls/Free Will. Their are a ton of us surrounded by soulless beings and objects just like their are a ton of stars surrounded by darkness.
Tehom also has connection to being a dragon goddess in RL myth.I don't think that Jim will use this interpretation in the DV because Dragons aren't really "alien" enough to be Outsiders. Plus we've already seen Dragons before.
Tehom also has connections to "the Deeps". This is a thing that shows up both in RL myth and the DV:
It is first mentioned in Genesis 1:2:
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (King James version)
The Deeps are the primordial waters of chaos from which creation came from. The "darkness" is Tehom and the "Spirit of God" is well...God.
We have a version of this quote by Thomas in the books (which isn't in any of the popular translation of the bible either):
"Love is patient. Love is kind. Love always forgives, trusts, supports, and endures. Love never fails. When every star in the heavens grows cold, and when silence lies once more on the face of the deep, three things will endure: faith, hope, and love."
"And the greatest of these is love," I finished. "That's from the Bible."
"First Corinthians, chapter thirteen," Thomas confirmed.
Tehom can be literally translated as the Deep.
Thoughts?
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Need more time to consider it, but I did find it interesting and well written.
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Well I'm not sure I can agree with it being ALL outsiders certainly it could be one. One of if not the greatest, a being so immense it blankets everything and 'destroys reality'(technically it probably bends it to how it perceives reality should be) like Azazoth... Azugoth? Mmm Az something, damn Lovecraftian grammar.
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Well I'm not sure I can agree with it being ALL outsiders certainly it could be one. One of if not the greatest, a being so immense it blankets everything and 'destroys reality'(technically it probably bends it to how it perceives reality should be) like Azazoth... Azugoth? Mmm Az something, damn Lovecraftian grammar.
Azathoth.
And that bit of you wondering how to spell Azathoth probably took more time to write up on the PS3 than searching for the answer on google would. :D
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Azathoth.
And that bit of you wondering how to spell Azathoth probably took more time to write up on the PS3 than searching for the answer on google would. :D
One should not google the answer to everything. Thats not real knowledge unless you retain it.
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One should not google the answer to everything. Thats not real knowledge unless you retain it.
You shouldn't complain about not knowing things when they're unwilling to look it up either.
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You shouldn't complain about not knowing things when they're unwilling to look it up either.
Umph, I wasn't complaining about not knowing, I was complaining about the great list of nonsensical names that bounces around my head when I try to think of what I googled on them ;)
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Umph, I wasn't complaining about not knowing, I was complaining about the great list of nonsensical names that bounces around my head when I try to think of what I googled on them ;)
Sure sounded (technically read, but you know what I mean) like you were complaining about not knowing. But that's enough of this conversation.
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Any more thoughts anyone?
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Griff says:
1) The Elder/Great/Old Ones of the Dresdenverse, in parallel with the Lovecraftian creatures, are trans-dimensional non-atmospheric space aliens.
2) The Outsiders, the lessers of the Elder/Great/Old Ones, are smaller-scale than the others, but of similar natures and evolution. But they're still space aliens.
I've got this whole "tentacles are cosmic gravity propellers" idea in my head. It's very believable... from a certain point of view.
Luke: "A certain point of vew?"
You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.
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Well if we think of the generic outsider (is there a generic outsider?) as say, one of Cthulhu's starspawn (if Cthulhu is supposed to be Nemesis tables will be flipped) it would make sense that they at least have the ability to work perfectly with each other.
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Griff says:
1) The Elder/Great/Old Ones of the Dresdenverse, in parallel with the Lovecraftian creatures, are trans-dimensional non-atmospheric space aliens.
2) The Outsiders, the lessers of the Elder/Great/Old Ones, are smaller-scale than the others, but of similar natures and evolution. But they're still space aliens.
I've got this whole "tentacles are cosmic gravity propellers" idea in my head. It's very believable... from a certain point of view.You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.
Technically, Tehom is a space alien :P.
Well if we think of the generic outsider (is there a generic outsider?) as say, one of Cthulhu's starspawn (if Cthulhu is supposed to be Nemesis tables will be flipped) it would make sense that they at least have the ability to work perfectly with each other.
Why? Do they have that ability in one of Lovecrafts stories?
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Why? Do they have that ability in one of Lovecrafts stories?
It was mentioned in "At the Mountains of Madness", I unfortunately have not read that one (I only have the "Call of Cthulhu" compilation sadly enough), if anyone else can answer feel free.
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It was mentioned in "At the Mountains of Madness", I unfortunately have not read that one (I only have the "Call of Cthulhu" compilation sadly enough), if anyone else can answer feel free.
the elder things, I believe, have wing like structures they use to fly through space by warping gravity, yes
note they are not outsiders, IMO. they are alien life forms from ancient times but not evil; they are scientists.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pjkqtUeKCdY/UH8KoijkJEI/AAAAAAAAiK4/AHevtPXCxLg/s640/elder.jpg)
while not human and not friends of humans, I think in the lovecraft verse they have the best chance of actually stopping the greater evils.
after they finish dissecting us for their experiments, of course :)
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Here is hp lovecrafts works and stories with the Elder things, Yith, Flying Polyps,ect
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/fiction/
Elder Things
http://yog-blogsoth.blogspot.com/search/label/Elder%20Thing
H.P. Lovecraft’s
At the Mountains of Madness
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/fiction/mm.aspx
Flying polyops and Yithians in TSOoT
http://yog-blogsoth.blogspot.com/search/label/Flying%20Polyp
http://yog-blogsoth.blogspot.com/search/label/Yithian
H.P. Lovecraft’s
“The Shadow Out of Time”
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/fiction/sot.aspx
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Dude thats^ awesome, thank you. :D
Oh snaps. yea you just helped me remember why I'd made a connection about something.*Slips off to post in pertainant thread*
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Man I really like this theory but it hasn't gotten much discussion...I'd really like to get it into the Recourse Section.
I do wonder (if this hypothesis is true) if we'll be getting an "attack the darkness!" gag before the series is through :P.
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It'll get transferred when it locks itself.
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Man I really like this theory but it hasn't gotten much discussion...I'd really like to get it into the Recourse Section.
I think this is an awesome theory. Great find!
I do wonder (if this hypothesis is true) if we'll be getting an "attack the darkness!" gag before the series is through :P.
Don't underestimate the magic missle! ;)
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Damn it all, I was going to use the Genesis line in a fanfic. :p
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Well I'm not sure I can agree with it being ALL outsiders certainly it could be one.
Isn't there something in CD suggesting that all Outsiders might be one entity, or am I misremembering ?
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One should not google the answer to everything. Thats not real knowledge unless you retain it.
"Trust Google. Google is your real father."
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Rule #1 before going to tech support did you google it?
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Isn't there something in CD suggesting that all Outsiders might be one entity, or am I misremembering ?
From the OP:
Tehom being the Outsiders also explains how the Outsiders can be a hivemind
Harry says it in CD yeah. Suspect info of course given how little anyone knows about the Outsiders but its still something.
What do you think of this theory Neuro?
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What do you think of this theory Neuro?
It sounds possible, but we'd need more information to come up with anything resembling an assessment of likelihood. It's not grabbing my interest because I'm not seeing all that much in the characterisation of Tehom to make it very different from, say, a union-of-all-Outsiders entity that was called Azathoth; I'm not minded to take the whole "the Outsiders were driven beyond the Outer Gates by powers back in ancient history" bit in GP as plausible because we have a sixty-five-million-year-old tyrannosaur running around the place in DB as living(ish) evidence for the age of the DV being much larger than a human-centric scale. (And possibly also because I have a strong personal preference for multipolar atoreis, including multipolar reads on the DV, than Manichean ones.)
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It sounds possible, but we'd need more information to come up with anything resembling an assessment of likelihood. It's not grabbing my interest because I'm not seeing all that much in the characterisation of Tehom to make it very different from, say, a union-of-all-Outsiders entity that was called Azathoth; I'm not minded to take the whole "the Outsiders were driven beyond the Outer Gates by powers back in ancient history" bit in GP as plausible because we have a sixty-five-million-year-old tyrannosaur running around the place in DB as living(ish) evidence for the age of the DV being much larger than a human-centric scale. (And possibly also because I have a strong personal preference for multipolar atoreis, including multipolar reads on the DV, than Manichean ones.)
I'm not sure what the bolded part means. Could you elaborate?
And why are Outsiders being driven beyond the Outer Gates by powers back in ancient history and an evolutionary timescale mutually exclusive? ???
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I'm not sure what the bolded part means. Could you elaborate?
I'm saying that if all the Outsiders are a hive mind of some sort, I'm not seeing much difference between calling that hive mind Tehom and calling it Azathoth (or indeed calling it George.)
And why are Outsiders being driven beyond the Outer Gates by powers back in ancient history and an evolutionary timescale mutually exclusive? ???
Because a lot of what we see of the Outsiders - mordite and mistfiends and so on - seems to me to indicate that the environment they are adapted for is immensely hostile to Earthly and NN life alike (we've seen mordite be equally deadly to humans and Red Court vampires.) I'm not finding it particularly plausible that the Earth could have been dominated by Outsiders/Old Ones on a scale of tens of thousands of years ago, when we know the DV had dinosaurs, because it feels to me like humans living in an Outsider environment would be like fish trying to live in a fire.
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I'm saying that if all the Outsiders are a hive mind of some sort, I'm not seeing much difference between calling that hive mind Tehom and calling it Azathoth (or indeed calling it George.)
Because a lot of what we see of the Outsiders - mordite and mistfiends and so on - seems to me to indicate that the environment they are adapted for is immensely hostile to Earthly and NN life alike (we've seen mordite be equally deadly to humans and Red Court vampires.) I'm not finding it particularly plausible that the Earth could have been dominated by Outsiders/Old Ones on a scale of tens of thousands of years ago, when we know the DV had dinosaurs, because it feels to me like humans living in an Outsider environment would be like fish trying to live in a fire.
Well, one possibility which springs to mind is that it's possible that being immensely hostile to earth and reality is an adopted survival trait since ariving "outside" - that originaly, they weren't so hostile, in the cosmic sense, but just bad guys, which is why they got pushed out of the world.
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I'm saying that if all the Outsiders are a hive mind of some sort, I'm not seeing much difference between calling that hive mind Tehom and calling it Azathoth (or indeed calling it George.)
I'm not sure what being a hive mind has to do with it. ???
Tehom isn't just any random name. it is an established being in RL mythology that has a LOT of ties and connections to the Outsiders (I think so anyways). Why would Jim use the figure of Mab (who has prior roles in RL myth) instead of just making up a Winter Queen?
Tehom is called that because...that's its name. I mean the Vord are a hivemind, why call the Vord the Vord instead of calling them Azathoth?
Because a lot of what we see of the Outsiders - mordite and mistfiends and so on - seems to me to indicate that the environment they are adapted for is immensely hostile to Earthly and NN life alike (we've seen mordite be equally deadly to humans and Red Court vampires.) I'm not finding it particularly plausible that the Earth could have been dominated by Outsiders/Old Ones on a scale of tens of thousands of years ago, when we know the DV had dinosaurs, because it feels to me like humans living in an Outsider environment would be like fish trying to live in a fire.
Well if you go by my theory than the Outsiders were probably around even before the Big Bang (assuming the Big Bang=Let There be Light. Which I think is pretty plausible considering Jims way of intertwining mythic and RL history. Of course the truth is probably more complex with other religions and stuff but you get the idea). They were then banished far before even the formation of the earth and the stars (I'm assuming they get there info through spies in our world or Outsiders summoned and then banished back to the Outside). That environment seems suited to the Outsiders IMO.
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This will help you with Lovecraft info.
H.P. Lovecraft’s
“The Call of Cthulhu”
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/cc.aspx
These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape—for did not this star-fashioned image prove it?—but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R’lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them. But at that time some force from outside must serve to liberate Their bodies. The spells that preserved Them intact likewise prevented Them from making an initial move, and They could only lie awake in the dark and think whilst uncounted millions of years rolled by. They knew all that was occurring in the universe, but Their mode of speech was transmitted thought. Even now They talked in Their tombs. When, after infinities of chaos, the first men came, the Great Old Ones spoke to the sensitive among them by moulding their dreams; for only thus could Their language reach the fleshly minds of mammals.
Then, whispered Castro, those first men formed the cult around small idols which the Great Ones shewed them; idols brought in dim aeras from dark stars. That cult would never die till the stars came right again, and the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom. Meanwhile the cult, by appropriate rites, must keep alive the memory of those ancient ways and shadow forth the prophecy of their return.
In the elder time chosen men had talked with the entombed Old Ones in dreams, but then something had happened. The great stone city R’lyeh, with its monoliths and sepulchres, had sunk beneath the waves; and the deep waters, full of the one primal mystery through which not even thought can pass, had cut off the spectral intercourse. But memory never died, and high-priests said that the city would rise again when the stars were right. Then came out of the earth the black spirits of earth, mouldy and shadowy, and full of dim rumours picked up in caverns beneath forgotten sea-bottoms. But of them old Castro dared not speak much. He cut himself off hurriedly, and no amount of persuasion or subtlety could elicit more in this direction. The size of the Old Ones, too, he curiously declined to mention. Of the cult, he said that he thought the centre lay amid the pathless deserts of Arabia, where Irem, the City of Pillars, dreams hidden and untouched. It was not allied to the European witch-cult, and was virtually unknown beyond its members. No book had ever really hinted of it, though the deathless Chinamen said that there were double meanings in the Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred which the initiated might read as they chose, especially the much-discussed couplet:
“That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.”
Lovecraft timeline
http://www.netherreal.de/library/timeline/
Lovecraft Family tree
http://i.imgur.com/bmwHo.jpg
A Lovecraftian Bestiary
http://www.hplovecraft.com/creation/bestiary.aspx
Cthulhu was born of this universe and was mid level cousin(Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly)
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/dh.aspx
“Nor is it to be thought,” ran the text as Armitage mentally translated it, “that man is either the oldest or the last of earth’s masters, or that the common bulk of life and substance walks alone. The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, They walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen. Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth’s fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread. By Their smell can men sometimes know Them near, but of Their semblance can no man know, saving only in the features of those They have begotten on mankind; and of those are there many sorts, differing in likeness from man’s truest eidolon to that shape without sight or substance which is Them. They walk unseen and foul in lonely places where the Words have been spoken and the Rites howled through at their Seasons. The wind gibbers with Their voices, and the earth mutters with Their consciousness. They bend the forest and crush the city, yet may not forest or city behold the hand that smites. Kadath in the cold waste hath known Them, and what man knows Kadath? The ice desert of the South and the sunken isles of Ocean hold stones whereon Their seal is engraven, but who hath seen the deep frozen city or the sealed tower long garlanded with seaweed and barnacles? Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly. Iä! Shub-Niggurath! As a foulness shall ye know Them. Their hand is at your throats, yet ye see Them not; and Their habitation is even one with your guarded threshold. Yog-Sothoth is the key to the gate, whereby the spheres meet. Man rules now where They ruled once; They shall soon rule where man rules now. After summer is winter, and after winter summer. They wait patient and potent, for here shall They reign again.”
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I do wonder (if this hypothesis is true) if we'll be getting an "attack the darkness!" gag before the series is through :P.
"You irritate the grue."