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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: greycouncilmember on July 23, 2010, 08:19:06 PM
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I'm finding myself incredibly excited about the DFRPG system! I have a few questions related to Thaumaturgy that I'm hoping somebody can help me with.
I've been thinking about a good luck spell that just adds a temporary aspect for a good long duration like maybe a couple hours or even a day. What would the cost be to add that aspect to a willing person? Would it be 1 plus the aspect cost of 0 (temporary aspect) plus the duration or would the base have to beat the target skill even if they are willing?
Is there a general rule of thumb for duration? is it fair for a base thaumaturgy spell to last an hour if there is an aspect involved?
Thanks in advance!
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Well, that's actually the perfect inverse of an example they give on pg. 296 in YS, the mild entropy curse, so it stands to reason that you could just switch out the aspect Bad Luck for your desired Good Luck and viola.
It would probably look something like this:
Good Luck Blessing
Type: Thaumaturgy, transformation
Complexity: Varies; 4 - 6 shifts, depending on duration and a non-resisting subject
Duration: A few hours
Effect: Applies the aspect Good Luck on the subject, canceling out the effects of any kind of Bad Luck aspect.
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Aspects placed on people last for one scene (15-30 minutes or so). To make that aspect last longer, you need to up the complexity of the spell by one for each level. So if you want the aspect to hang around for a few hours up the complexity by about three - all day? Bump it by 5.
As far as cost it depends on whether you want the aspect to have one free tag or more. If you wanted a basic good luck aspect that would last for a few hours and get someone one free tag have a complexity of about 6. Three shifts (normal cost for a spell maneuver) and three extra shifts for duration. After that first tag, it would have to be invoked at the cost of one fate point.
Want to have more than one tag? Buy the the maneuver multiple times. So a complexity of 9 would get you two tags on an aspect that would stick around for a few hours.
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You'd have to pay for the extra duration on each of the additional aspects. So it would be complexity 12 (6 x 2) to get two long duration aspects. And you might need an extra shift in each of those aspects to make them sticky, as well.
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Here's a question from me: what sort of thaumaturgy could you use to help with gambling?
So far I've got: divination to find out the winner of a race before it even starts; bad luck or a temporarily crippling 'injury' cast on a racer, whether they be a driver, dog or horse; good or bad luck cast on the players of a card game; a 'potion' rubbed on the hands to mystically mark cards as you handle them; a "see the other side of the cards" spell.
Any other ideas? :)
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To answer the original question, the default complexity for applying a maneuver, resisted or not, is three shifts. For duration, I'd say it would be fair that the aspect lasts 15-30 minutes after the first tag, but the person that has it can put off tagging it for about a day after it is cast. For longer lasting aspects, just increase the complexity by one for each increment on the time chart you want to increase the length of the aspect.
As an aside, divination to learn the future is lawbreaking.
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@Luminos: I think most people agree that it's only travelling back in time, or affecting the past in some way, that breaks the 6th Law as it specifically states that the law prohibits 'swimming against the currents of time'. Plus powers like Cassandra's Tears or 'A Few Seconds Ahead' (OW99) look in to the future without breaking the 6th law.
@Rel Fexive: Speaking of which, a thaumaturgic ritual to temporarily give your character the power 'A Few Seconds Ahead' could be used in casinos effectively. Plus if he has channelling he could use telekinesis to affect slot machines and roulette wheels.
Re-worded for Luminos' benefit - It's only travelling back in time, or affecting the past in some way, that breaks the 6th Law as it specifically states that the law prohibits 'swimming against the currents of time'. Plus powers like Cassandra's Tears or 'A Few Seconds Ahead' (OW99) look in to the future without breaking the 6th law. So most people agree that it's fine to look in to the future
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I think "most people" is a meaningless vague term (unless you have a poll or something), and irrelevant to the question of what is correct anyways.
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'Most people' in that I've seen it discussed repeatedly on here and divination of the future isn't ever seen to be an issue. 'Most people' in that many people have created characters that allow them to look in to the future.
'Most people' because the laws of magic are open to interpretation and it's up to the individual group to decide how they want to interpret it, so you can play a game where divination of the future results in a lawbreaker if you want; hence discussing the general consensus instead of laying down my opinion as law.
If you’re looking for a grey area to explore, here’s one: the Sixth Law prohibits swimming against the flow of time. What about swimming with it? It might be entirely kosher to jump forward in time (assuming you can figure out how to do it). But will your local Warden see it that way? And how badly will you want to head back once you get there?
If travelling forward in time can be seen as ok, I'm pretty sure getting a glimpse of future knowledge is ok too.
Divination can take several forms, all basically falling under the general header of “gathering information.” The most common example from Harry’s casefiles is his tracking spell, but there are several other forms that fall within the scope of divination: direct scrying, forecasting and prophecy, telepathy and psychometry, and various other kinds of sensory magic.
I bolded the bits that relate to divination in to the past or future. Hope that helps and that you find it more 'relevant' to what is 'correct', though I really don't think there is only one specific way to interpret any of the laws of magic in my opinion.
Edit - I've also changed the structure of my first post in quotes for you Luminos, whilst keeping the same meaning and pretty much the same words. Just so that yours eyes won't get caught on the words 'most people', allowing you to read the rest of the sentence. Hope that clears things up.
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Thank you for the relevent portions of the rules. That is miles more useful than an unsubstantiated and besides the issue "most people" argument. Yes, now I can see some amount of agreement with your point.
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Thank you for the relevent portions of the rules. That is miles more useful than an unsubstantiated and besides the issue "most people" argument. Yes, now I can see some amount of agreement with your point.
There is no need to speculate. It's been stated in Turn Coat(?) that knowing the future in some fashion is something that ALL wizards eventually gain. Now, I'll admit that Luccio might not be an incredibly reliable source under the circumstances, but it's still good enough for me.
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Being naturally precognitive and actively looking into the future may be a very fine line. I think there was even discussion about this in White Night when Harry and Murph meet Abby. There's also the long explanation about paradox Bob and Harry have about the message the Gatekeeper gives him in "Proven Guilty," where they discuss exactly why this is a law since by knowing the future you may attempt to change it which could cause a paradox, thus endangering reality. Now, placing a bet on a horse you know is going to win probably doesn't violate that law. Maybe...but then is maybe a word you wanna use in conjunction with "avoiding paradoxageddon"?
Plus, I find most arguments on "avoiding violating the laws" to be based on the premise that you'll get to explain and/or prove your position before someone cuts your head off.
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To answer the original question, the default complexity for applying a maneuver, resisted or not, is three shifts. For duration, I'd say it would be fair that the aspect lasts 15-30 minutes after the first tag, but the person that has it can put off tagging it for about a day after it is cast. For longer lasting aspects, just increase the complexity by one for each increment on the time chart you want to increase the length of the aspect.
I'd think a temporary aspect would go away right after it was used. How can that spell last all day for the default complexity of 3 shifts? In other words it would cost the default 3 to get the default duration of up to a day?
Thanks so much everybody!
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I'm not actually sure if the default complexity of 3 will make it available for an entire day or not, since the section on thaumaturgy doesn't seem to provide a definitve answer on it (correct me with a page number if I'm wrong) but that was just my best guess. Even so, I'm not saying the actual aspect will last a day, just that their is a day to activate the aspect when the ritual is finished. Also, its thaumaturgy, so the effects it creates will tend to be stronger than effects created by other methods.
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I'd think a temporary aspect would go away right after it was used. How can that spell last all day for the default complexity of 3 shifts? In other words it would cost the default 3 to get the default duration of up to a day?
A manoeuvre applying a temporary aspect like that is always a minimum of 3 shifts. The spell duration would most likely default to a scene, so the spell would probably end after 15 minutes or until it was tagged. You could call the spell 4 shifts if you want it to be a sticky, in which case it would still last for the 15 minutes, but tagging the aspect wouldn't make it disappear; you could pay a fate point to use the aspect again. Alternatively, you could pay for extra tags (3 shifts each) but this still wouldn't extend the duration of the spell.
To make the spell last for a whole day, you would have to pay additional shifts for each time increment above the original duration (check the reference sheets at the back of the book/pdf). So to make the basic 3 shift aspect last for half an hour, you'd have to pay an additional shift. To make it last the afternoon (8 or 12 hours) it would be an additional 4 shifts and the whole day would cost you 5 extra shifts.
So to make a temporary good luck aspect ritual that lasts for a day, it will cost 3 shifts for the aspect and 5 for duration; that's 8 shifts of complexity in total. You could make it a sticky aspect for an additional shift, so that even once you've used your free tag on the aspect, the spell would continue to run until the end of the day and you could invoke it with fate points just like a normal aspect.
So you could pay 3 shifts for the aspect, 5 shifts for duration, 1 shift to make it sticky (so it sticks around once the free tags have been used) and 6 more shifts for two additional free tags (3 shifts x 2).
This would give you a ritual that would cost 15 shifts of complexity, it would give you a good luck aspect all day and would allow you to tag it three times for free. A handy spell.
Hope that helps.
Edit: And as Luminos has said above, there isn't a default duration for each spell in the book, you just need to go with what seems to make sense. If you aren't sure what the default duration would be then speak to your GM to see what he's happy with and take a look at the time increments table in the book/PDF. Generally I would rule that most aspects last a scene and most wards last a day.
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So if the spell lasted a scene and cost 3 shifts for the single use manuever which is less than lore how long would that take to cast? Would it be just a few exchanges to get the power or would it be longer?
Btw, this helps huge. this forum is the best!
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Well as it's equal to or less than your lore, you can get straight to casting it without any additional preparation.
Casting is a little controversial on the forum actually. Some would rule that as you have everything on you; and as it only has a low cost; you could probably cast it like evocation. Others will say that you'd still need a basic casting area laid out before you can cast it which might require either a full exchange or a supplemental action to set up.
If I were your GM, I'd let you cast it during a conflict in one round if you set up the circle as a supplemental action, or in two rounds if you used a previous exchange for setting up (and that'd create a taggable aspect to use when casting, pretty much guaranteeing success).
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or in two rounds if you used a previous exchange for setting up (and that'd create a taggable aspect to use when casting, pretty much guaranteeing success).
Because I like thaumaturgy remaining separate from evocation, this is similar to what I go with (and what we see harry do in the books a lot). One round to scribe a circle, one round to cast. We handle the taggable aspect by calling the circle a Lore declaration, since I give it a difficulty of +1 and all of our casters would have a really hard time failing that roll. I'm not really sure if this is supported by the rules (which seem to give little indication as to what "casting without preparation" means), but it's supported by Harry.
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I think that makes perfect sense mostlyawake. I would allow someone to do the same as a supplemental action, but then they can't use it as a taggable aspect (my rules :P) and they get a -1 when rolling to control the spell due to the supplemental action.
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I think that makes perfect sense mostlyawake. I would allow someone to do the same as a supplemental action, but then they can't use it as a taggable aspect (my rules :P) and they get a -1 when rolling to control the spell due to the supplemental action.
Actually I might be fine by that too, as in my rules they wouldn't get the taggable aspect either (they aren't taking an action to make a declaration).
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This makes sense to me but what if the circle was cast/completed and given a whole round so there was no penalty? Could this spell be cast repeatedly on each member of the party with the same circle? Would there be an additional amount of prep work each spell? I've thought a lot about using this to help the group i'm in since my character isn't' much of a caster, kinda a background character. I'd only need to gather up 3 shifts of power for each casting/target and it could potentially last an entire day. What do you think?
Well as it's equal to or less than your lore, you can get straight to casting it without any additional preparation.
Casting is a little controversial on the forum actually. Some would rule that as you have everything on you; and as it only has a low cost; you could probably cast it like evocation. Others will say that you'd still need a basic casting area laid out before you can cast it which might require either a full exchange or a supplemental action to set up.
If I were your GM, I'd let you cast it during a conflict in one round if you set up the circle as a supplemental action, or in two rounds if you used a previous exchange for setting up (and that'd create a taggable aspect to use when casting, pretty much guaranteeing success).
I don't understand what you mean with the taggable aspect portion. By taking the time to create the circle, it can give you a free aspect you can use to gather power? that seems pretty powerful to me.
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The process of doing thaumaturgy is very different from that of doing evocation. Even if you have everything you need to do the spell, you still have to go through an elaborate ritual, even if its simple enough to be done in the wizards mind. Because of this, it should take at least 5 minutes to do any kind of thaumaturgy. I mean seriously, if you could do thaumaturgy in combat, what would the point of the speed and methods of evocation part of sponsored magic be?
If its fast enough to be done in the middle of a fight, its evocation, and you get the stress for doing it.
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so the 5 minutes would be done with each casting then. That still seems reasonable for me. An hour to do 6 people wouldn't be that big a deal. I could just do the rolls to gather the power and in case I fail a roll but not need to roleplay that whole scene. Or is that not in keeping with the spirit of the system? I like to think of it like buffing up for a fight. if a spell is going to last most of the day then that's something my character could do as part of his morning rituals. It's just a thought though, I'm not committed to this.
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I'm going to agree with Luminos here. Thaumaturgy really can't be set up in combat. Remember that "Thaumaturgy is a slow art, with the fastest of spells taking a minute or more," and I would say a minute is a lot longer than an exchange.
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I'm going to agree with Luminos here. Thaumaturgy really can't be set up in combat. Remember that "Thaumaturgy is a slow art, with the fastest of spells taking a minute or more," and I would say a minute is a lot longer than an exchange.
This. I've allowed a whole one Thaumaturgy spell in combat thus far, and I allowed that one only with a Fate Point and only directly duplicating an Evocation effect (the character in question lacked Evocation, but needed to redirect some energy from a previous Thaumaturgical effect of his, fast...it seemed fun and thematic so I bent the rules). I'd certainly never allow something not normally doable with Evocation in combat's time scale without Sponsored Magic or some other extremely good justification.
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I'm not looking to cast this in combat ever! Thanks for clarifying that though. I just thought it might be a nice benefit to my party to give them a little free taggable aspect. I'd be ok if the spell took a minimum of 5 minutes because in a group of 6 that's still only 30 minutes to give the benefit. I just wanted to be sure it was within the spirit of the game and not an abuse...
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The rpg books give no reference for how long a turn is for thaumaturgy, even when just talking about adding power to it each turn. However, Dresden is able at a few different times to quickly chalk out a circle - we get the impression that it takes him less than a minute or so to do so.
So it really depends on how long you are equating a combat action to: if you see a combat turn as 6-10 seconds, like most other games, then you could be looking at 6-8 actions to get thaumaturgy spell off in a minute, which is plenty of time to get dead in.
I'm kind of on the fence, here... I think it should be kept separate than evocation (not instant), but that 5 minutes is way too long to really represent what Dresden does. Then again, whatever you choose will also represent how long it takes him to make a potion, which always takes Dresden hours... so a perfect representation is impossible.
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Chalking out a circle is not the same as full on Thaumaturgy. First of all, its something anyone can do. Secondly, to create any of the kinds of effects talked about in the thaumaturgy section, we always see a much more complex process than drawing out a simple circle.
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I didn't meant to start a controversy. Whether it's one minute or ten minutes it's feasible for my character to cast the spell out of combat for however long it takes to give the benefit to several party members for use within combat. Being within your Lore you don't have to worry about doing anything outside of the spell casting process to actually have the desired effect.
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Yeah, the times when I can recall him chalking a circle "in combat" he was actually just really close to being in combat, or was pressed for time. So my take is, he was using evocation, and just took a round or two to create a "magic circle" tag, which he then free tagged to help with his spell. Remember control isn't his forte.
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I'm seeing a bunch of places where people say "a temporary aspect like that is always a minimum of 3 shifts". Just wondering why that is... I don't mean metaphysically... :) Is there a calculation in there somewhere?
I love the books, there's all kinds of flavor in there... I would have like a few formulae as well though... :)
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I used to be a hard-liner when it came to thaumaturgy, thinking even the most basic spells take too much preparation time to use in a conflict. However, I was persuaded in these forums that it's possible to be a little flexible on this, simply because it just isn't a realistic option in a fight. You can do far more with evocation, or with almost any other power, in a conflict than you can with a ritual. It's slow and clunky and inefficient, only small spells can be done (due to being limited by Lore) and even then it generally takes more than one exchange to cast and it's easy for the enemy to interrupt the basic preparations made.
It's also hard to abuse; many spell effects require special components and casting the ritual mid-conflict wouldn't change that. Targeting an enemy might require an appropriate ingredient like blood, hair etc even if they do have a high enough lore.
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dlw32 - it states on page 252 of Your Story
"Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than attacking and blocking. By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher than Good (+3), that skill total determines the required number of shifts."
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@CME
most thaumaturgic effects are more powerful, souped up versions of the stuff evocation can do with the same number of shifts, and don't give you mental stress. That is why you don't make such exceptions. Thaumaturgic aspects applied to the self last at least a scene for the same number Evocation needs for it to last a round, with stress. Wards give a block value and rebound damage, for the same number of shifts for Evocation blocks that don't rebound damage, don't last for very long, and cost stress. I could go on for a while on this theme. It is very easy to abuse allowing rapid thaumaturgy, and it goes against both the spirit and letter of the rules. Not to mention, it makes some of the bonues from sponsored magic meaningless.
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So basically I guess I can't really effectively cast it to stick around for a whole day without a good amount of prep work and potentially fate points. if my character has a lore of 4 and a thaumaturgy bonus of +2, I can channel up to 6 shifts without prep. It seems like the spell as it is would be 3 base +5 duration = 8 total. If I leave it at 6 it would last only a few hours. I guess if I have a sufficient amount of time I could cast this before a decent combat but otherwise it's not very practical.
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Actually, I have a question about your luck spell. How, exactly, did you envision it manifesting? Is it meant to boost someone's active efforts? Is it meant to shield them from bad luck? Is it meant to just work at an opportune moment? Mechanically do you want the maneuver to allow multiple free tags, or would you require the blessed person to spend Fate Points?
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Actually, I have a question about your luck spell. How, exactly, did you envision it manifesting? Is it meant to boost someone's active efforts? Is it meant to shield them from bad luck? Is it meant to just work at an opportune moment? Mechanically do you want the maneuver to allow multiple free tags, or would you require the blessed person to spend Fate Points?
Great questions! I actually just envisioned it as a luck of the moment where the recipient could basically get a +2 to a check of some kind by tagging the aspect. After they tag it, it's gone. You never know when a free bonus could change the tide in battle.
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Great questions! I actually just envisioned it as a luck of the moment where the recipient could basically get a +2 to a check of some kind by tagging the aspect. After they tag it, it's gone. You never know when a free bonus could change the tide in battle.
Oh good, that makes it easier than I thought. You just want a simple Maneuver. Your estimate of being able to easily cast a luck spell that lasts a couple of hours is basically correct. I think that's still pretty useful. With your Lore and the complexity bonus from your focus item you don't need very much prep time, you can probably set up your blessing ritual in a few minutes, then take a few exchanges to cast the spell on each of your friends a few hours before a conflict. It's a decent buff and costs you nothing.
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dlw32 - it states on page 252 of Your Story
"Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than attacking and blocking. By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher than Good (+3), that skill total determines the required number of shifts."
I thought that Good +3 was the default, but dlw32's post made me go back and read the thaumaturgy maneuver section again. It actually reads differently from the Evocation maneuver section.
It reads to me like placing aspects on scenes have the same difficulty as a simple action. Doesn't default to Good. Also, placing aspects on targets depends completely on their defending skill which could be lower than Good. So placing aspects on willing targets is much easier as they can choose not to defend. Looks like on p296 the dreamless sleep spell backs that up. Probably 1 or 2 shifts for the aspect and the rest on duration.
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@Luminos - Aha, I hadn't really thought of it like that. Sponsored magic has just gone up in my estimation too. Especially if, as Tush Hog below writes, aspects cost less too. That changes it a lot.
I'd like to think that makes my original assessment of it all correct, but being right through ignorance doesn't count :P. Luckily, I'm not a GM, and I won't try to be until I've got the rules totally memorised.
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So basically I guess I can't really effectively cast it to stick around for a whole day without a good amount of prep work and potentially fate points. if my character has a lore of 4 and a thaumaturgy bonus of +2, I can channel up to 6 shifts without prep. It seems like the spell as it is would be 3 base +5 duration = 8 total. If I leave it at 6 it would last only a few hours. I guess if I have a sufficient amount of time I could cast this before a decent combat but otherwise it's not very practical.
you could make a declaration for +2. one of my player's characters has a tote bag with misc stuff with her all the time, at the beginning of each adventure she gives me a list of the items in there, which ranges from a raven's feather to dirt from a lake shore. let's say the character want's to control/summon a flight of ravens for some reason. the player declares that she uses the feather in her ritual (which may be gone then, maybe it has to be burned), and gets a much needed boost to match the complexity.
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I thought that Good +3 was the default, but dlw32's post made me go back and read the thaumaturgy maneuver section again. It actually reads differently from the Evocation maneuver section.
It reads to me like placing aspects on scenes have the same difficulty as a simple action. Doesn't default to Good. Also, placing aspects on targets depends completely on their defending skill which could be lower than Good. So placing aspects on willing targets is much easier as they can choose not to defend. Looks like on p296 the dreamless sleep spell backs that up. Probably 1 or 2 shifts for the aspect and the rest on duration.
So now it seems like it could go either way. Is it really fair if I choose not to resist something that you still need to beat a target number? what would make the dreamless sleep spell different?
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So now it seems like it could go either way. Is it really fair if I choose not to resist something that you still need to beat a target number? what would make the dreamless sleep spell different?
I think you were on the right track at the beginning. Want to put a good luck aspect on someone who is willing? One shift for the aspect and then add shifts to get the duration you want (duration starting at one scene or about 15 minutes). So a complexity of 4 gets you a stcky aspect that will hang around a few hours.
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I think you were on the right track at the beginning. Want to put a good luck aspect on someone who is willing? One shift for the aspect and then add shifts to get the duration you want (duration starting at one scene or about 15 minutes). So a complexity of 4 gets you a stcky aspect that will hang around a few hours.
argh sorry please disregard this...