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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on March 16, 2020, 05:52:10 AM
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1. Maeve moved to Undertown around the same time Harry initiates the Vampire War in Grave Peril. The implication, if subtly, is that this is part of the general weirdness surrounding those events. Aurora moves into Chicago at the same time, on top of the Rothschild hotel. But what if it was AURORA who moved first? That would make more sense, given her involvement in upsetting the natural order and infection by Nemesis. At that stage Maeve was uninfected.
2. Also, is it not extremely odd that the current Summer Knight has been living in Chicago for a number of years? He could have lived anywhere yet he is living in Chicago. What's so special about Chicago?
3. Aurora actually calls Harry a destroyer in their very first meeting. This is no accident I realise, but a deliberate bit of world building done by Jim. A buried clue. He doesn't smash it in our faces by capitalising it, but I suspect by alerting us fans in the Morgan microfiction he intends to expand on this concept in Peace Talks. And she connects it to Lea. Are we so sure Lea is really a good guy? What's her play in all this..
4. Aurora says that the Knights carry power that has a weight only a free mortal will can possess. She also relates it to influence. Harry has always thought of the power as how close it makes him to being the Hulk, how much more juice he gets. But I wonder if the real power the Knights have is how they carry the idea they represent, and affect reality with it. What I mean is that Harry being the Winter Knight makes the idea that Winter represents stronger in the real world, therefore Winter gains greater strength overall and it's aims are closer to being realised. I know it is a bit complex, but I think it falls between the ideas of Warhammer and Mouse's abilities in Zoo Day. The ability of the Knights to affect their reality and make it more suited to their Court is there real strength. Both Winter and Summer have plenty of heavy hitters. Why have the Knight? Because of the effect on the Mortal world, making them stronger both in the Mortal World and the Nevernever.
Now of course Jim hadn't fully fleshed out his World Building at this stage, so some stuff has changed and some retconned (like how weak the Ladies were originally, as opposed to in Cold Days or how Mab and Titania got nerfed a bit since Summer Knight). But I think in general these are still relevant points for now.
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Well we know what's special about Chicago - Harry lives there ;)
Good observations overall, but I think based on SF/CD/SG especially, you're underselling just how important an agent with Free Will is for the Courts. In essence the Courts are finely balanced to a T, and the Knights can do whatever they like and tilt those balances. Plus, they're the actor who can truly bring in outside power and add it to the Courts (all the other Fae have to strike bargains which obviously bring in a trickle of benefits).
Maybe that was a bit unclear, so put another way: the Knight is the normal go-to for the Courts to prevent crazy things like the Archive being usurped by apocalyptic maniacs. The Emissary business allows the Court a little extra leeway, but overall, the Knight's there to prevent reality falling apart behind the Fae, as the Fae battle to keep it from falling apart from Outside.
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Well, apart from Harry living there and it being the centre of Jim's location. Although honestly Jim could really afford to set the story outside once in a while. It isn't that hard. Certainly for flavor, if not for credibility.
I agree with your analysis, but I think there are things beyond the Knights ability to tip the balance slightly. They are given a frikken mantle for heaven's sake! I think that says a hell of a lot. If it was JUST mortal will, why not just have the emissaries? They are useful enough in that regard. I think there are deeper and more meaningful purposes to the Knights, something to do with he differing duties to the respective Queens.
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[1]What's so special about Chicago?
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[2]Are we so sure Lea is really a good guy? [3]What's her play in all this.
[4]Aurora says that the Knights carry power that has a weight only a free mortal will can possess. ...
[1]It's a crossroads. I think it's explained in Small Favor as they talk about the ley lines. It draws in the supernatural. It might be the reason that Harry is in Chicago in the first place. He may have been drawn there.
[2]I'm pretty sure Lea is a bad guy who benefits from her dealings with Margaret LeFay/Harry. [3]Power. (Which gets shackled with a purpose, but that's a cost of her goal).
[4]What Avernite said. While the Knight has less power than any of the Queens, the Knight has the ability to use that power in ways the that the Queens, or any other fairy, can't by virtue of being a mortal. It's power + choice. The Queens have the power and the Knight has the choice.
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It the location of Chicago over Chicago. And the home of the Stone Table.
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It the location of Chicago over Chicago. And the home of the Stone Table.
It only exists (existed) because the Queens made it.
I'm pretty sure the Queens could make London over London, or Krakow over Krakow, or wherever has major Ley-lines... maybe 20 or so places worldwide? (n.b. the specific towns I mention, and number of places, are my own guesses, wholly pulled out of thin air).
Wherever they make their killing-ground, that's where the Stone Table comes; it suited them to make it over Chicago on that occasion. On other occasions, it might be other places.
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Lea is infected and has the knife, and says she cannot speak a lie. Going through her interaction with Dresden, the only things of note she says is that he should never let Mab bring him to the Stone Table, and how the Table functions. But something that slips under the radar is that she says outright that she always had his best interests at heart, and leads him to believe the person who pays/paid the price of her help is Harry's mother. However what if she didn't need to exchange a price, and could help for free because Nemesis had freed her from that normal obligation restriction that all Fae have? Can anyone see anything else that she told as truth that if it were a lie, might change a whole lot?
Elaine. She is very shifty because of her betrayal, but she really sounds like Kumori in this book. Also she is implied (Harry outright states it in thought at the end) to be the summoner of the illegal Mind Fog. She tells Harry he can and should walk away, they can't stop the end of the world. She is hardly a motivated Emmisary. Also she uses fire supposedly in this book (which we never see her use again...). She also uses a bit of memory magic (like in her rings). This feels like foreshadowing for memory tricks in Harry's head. There are also several odd references to Egypt in combination with her. She uses Old Egyptian as her words of choice, and is described as using poses like "an old Egyptian sarcophagus" when channeling power. And the mysterious Black Council/Circle do seem to have some strange unexplained connection to Cairo.
Odin/Vadderung. Munnin (or Hugin) makes a cameo at the Mother's cottage. Also Norse and Egyptian Runes (and likely Greek and Roman alphabet, and a few others) are on the Stone Table. There are also several referances to Menhir-type standing stones and Stonehenge. Curiously, it is Winter's symbol carved on the front door, not Summer's. Not sure why that is. Also not sure why Lloyd Slate has the symbol burned into him and Harry doesn't (only his Id seems to wear it).
Mother Winter says "Can you feel it?" to Mother Summer. What she is talking about is not made clear. What can they feel? I think it is Harry's starborn nature, and perhaps his Destroyer nature too. Curiously, Mother Winter identifies herself as the destroyer, the unmaker. Just before giving Harry the Unraveling.
Also they let slip something well known yet I suspect is foreshadowing as well - Dragons hoard power. Perhaps that is an essential part of their job...keeping power until it is needed. Rather like Hades and the Christ Objects.
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Yeah Chicago-over-Chicago is only called that because of where they made it. They could have used any location. The Stone Table is in Tir Na North, according to Jim.
BA - Just because it is a crossroads doesn't explain why more than half the supernatural world and major events happen there. There is surely more than one crossroads too in any case. Chicago isn't even the biggest shipping or trade city, let alone the biggest major world crossroad. Chicago is fantastic, sure. But none of that explains why everything happens there. It's probably the New York phenomenon (i.e. how every movie and comic etc seem to have major world events happen there). I'd just love a better narrative reason myself.
Lea does benefit from her dealings with Margaret, but I think she has more going on. I think Lea is the purloined letter myself. Hiding in plain sight. I think Lea will have quite a lot to do with how the series wraps up.
I get your point about the Knights. I also think that Jim has changed a few rules since Summer Knight as well, which affect how powerful things are. But mostly, I think that Knights have extra special power beyond the Free Will they carry. They exist to fill a highly specific role, and in that role they are undeniable. Stronger in than the Mothers, in a sense. Just as the Mothers have incredible amounts of Power constrained by tight and complex limits, the Knights have just a little Power but essentially unlimited freedom with which to employ it. But I think that was no accident, I think the Knight were created to create a specific weapon far stronger than anything the Fae could do otherwise. Something stronger than the sum of its parts.
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1. Maeve moved to Undertown around the same time Harry initiates the Vampire War in Grave Peril. The implication, if subtly, is that this is part of the general weirdness surrounding those events. Aurora moves into Chicago at the same time, on top of the Rothschild hotel. But what if it was AURORA who moved first? That would make more sense, given her involvement in upsetting the natural order and infection by Nemesis. At that stage Maeve was uninfected.
I think the most logical order of infection was Knife => Lea => Maeve => Aurora. I think Maeve was already infected in summer knight.
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I think the most logical order of infection was Knife => Lea => Maeve => Aurora. I think Maeve was already infected in summer knight.
Her and Aurora both, with it being more apparent in Aurora than Maeve. I still think it is possible that Aurora was infected by Elaine, who could be a carrier.
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Yeah Chicago-over-Chicago is only called that because of where they made it. They could have used any location. The Stone Table is in Tir Na North, according to Jim.
BA - Just because it is a crossroads doesn't explain why more than half the supernatural world and major events happen there. There is surely more than one crossroads too in any case. Chicago isn't even the biggest shipping or trade city, let alone the biggest major world crossroad. Chicago is fantastic, sure. But none of that explains why everything happens there. It's probably the New York phenomenon (i.e. how every movie and comic etc seem to have major world events happen there). I'd just love a better narrative reason myself.
Well, Harry really is the reason. The Vampire War starts there, the duel with Ortega happens there, because Harry.
Okay, a slight addendum is that WC headquarters is there, giving us White Night & Thomas. Which might just explain Harry - maybe the curse on Lord Raith drew Harry and Thomas (very) subtly together, and since Raith was in Chicago, so was Harry.
Even Chicago-over-Chicago revolves around Harry - Mab picks him as Emissary, Maeve and Aurora flutter around him (though they may just have been drawn to Ground Zero of the supernatural war).
And because all this stuff happens in Chicago, Uriel/Michael/Raphael/Gabriel respond-in-advance and plant a Knight in Chicago. Which ensures Nicodemus and his buddies are drawn in.
This only leaves the Dead Beat events unexplained, could've been anywhere with old burial grounds (Rome and Paris spring to mind, as do dead cities in Mesopotamia that are still close enough to the living), but I can give that a pass.
I get your point about the Knights. I also think that Jim has changed a few rules since Summer Knight as well, which affect how powerful things are. But mostly, I think that Knights have extra special power beyond the Free Will they carry. They exist to fill a highly specific role, and in that role they are undeniable. Stronger in than the Mothers, in a sense. Just as the Mothers have incredible amounts of Power constrained by tight and complex limits, the Knights have just a little Power but essentially unlimited freedom with which to employ it. But I think that was no accident, I think the Knight were created to create a specific weapon far stronger than anything the Fae could do otherwise. Something stronger than the sum of its parts.
Hence my reference to Skin Game. Even Uriel needs his power in the hands of Free Will to achieve things.
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... what if she didn't need to exchange a price, and could help for free because Nemesis had freed her from that normal obligation restriction that all Fae have? ...
Mab explicitly states that "it was the knife." So unless SHE was Nemfected (and thus could lie) we can safely assume that was the vector into Winter (Lea & Maeve).
Summer/Aurora looks likely to be Elaine, still. She may not even have been knowing/willing; or maybe Mortal Free Will was still allowing her to fight off the Nimfluence and work with Harry against Aurora...?
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It is not the flu, otherwise everyone would have it and the gates would be broken. Lea used the power of the knife and cat Sith was probably overpowered.
Lea had access to Maeve as confirmed in summer knight. The link between her and Aurora could have been the winter knight but I think Maeve simply did set up a meeting with Aurora and ambushed her. Seducing the winter knight came after that.
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The WC headquarters wasn't in Chicago. Lara was surprised Papa Raith was there when he showed up in Blood Rites. All of them who weren't in Chicago were there because Arturo Genosa was there.
Dead Beat happened there because they were all looking for the book, which was in Chicago. They were expecting to find it and were preparing the way there.
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I think the most logical order of infection was Knife => Lea => Maeve => Aurora. I think Maeve was already infected in summer knight.
Can't be true unless Mab lied or was mistaken, both of which are highly unlikely. She explicitly says it was the knife that was the vector of infection to Lea, implying Lea infected Maeve. Maeve was unlikely to have been infected in Summer Knight as she actually helps Harry get to Aurora and stop her, and is not working with Aurora. If they did (like Maeve and Lily in Cold Days) they really could have upset everything, and been a much more difficult issue. Also why would Lea infect Maeve and have her infect Aurora? Maeve could have played Aurora's role in Summer Knight just as easily but in reverse (in fact she would have relished killing Slate). Occam's razor - she wasn't infected yet.
Mira is probably right though that Elaine is the likely source, unless there is another unknown infected/infector. And you'll probably notice that whenever Elaine shows up, Black Council and Outsiders make an appearance (and Nemesis seems to as well, although there is a good argument to say Nemesis is in every book).
Well, Harry really is the reason. The Vampire War starts there, the duel with Ortega happens there, because Harry.
Okay, a slight addendum is that WC headquarters is there, giving us White Night & Thomas. Which might just explain Harry - maybe the curse on Lord Raith drew Harry and Thomas (very) subtly together, and since Raith was in Chicago, so was Harry.
Even Chicago-over-Chicago revolves around Harry - Mab picks him as Emissary, Maeve and Aurora flutter around him (though they may just have been drawn to Ground Zero of the supernatural war).
And because all this stuff happens in Chicago, Uriel/Michael/Raphael/Gabriel respond-in-advance and plant a Knight in Chicago. Which ensures Nicodemus and his buddies are drawn in.
This only leaves the Dead Beat events unexplained, could've been anywhere with old burial grounds (Rome and Paris spring to mind, as do dead cities in Mesopotamia that are still close enough to the living), but I can give that a pass.
Hence my reference to Skin Game. Even Uriel needs his power in the hands of Free Will to achieve things.
Okay but let's list all the things central to the series or the world that also are in/near Chicago:
- Knight of the Cross (Michael, then Karrin and later Butters. Susan too technically.)
- Demonreach (Prison full of world ending dark gods and monster, possibly and indeed likely Outsiders and Old Ones)
- Major White Court stronghold (previously not the heart, but with Lara in charge it effectively is)
- Previously powerful Red Court noble
- Major location for a number pivotal (sometimes world-saving) conflicts attended by seriously impressive groups and individuals including but not limited to: The White Council, The Heirs of Kemmler, Summer and Winter War, Regular presence of Faerie Queens and Nobles, The Knights of the Cross, The Order of the Blackened Denarius, the White Court, a strong individuals from the Red and the Black Courts, Outsiders, Archangels, Regular Angels, Gods, Demigods, Fomor, the Archive, a Dragon etc)
- Former home of BOTH immediately previous and CURRENT Summer and Winter Knights
- Current Winter Lady, former Summer Ladies and Winter Lady
- America's most powerful criminal (arguably)
- probably more but you get the idea
My problem is why it's pretty much always there.
And as for the power of the Fae Knights...I think that it comes down to the Mantle + Person = Knight. Same with the KotC (Sword + Person = Knight). The Knights are powerful because of the combination, but the person on their own is less so (sometimes MUCH less so) and the Swords or Mantles are effectively useless without an Agent to wield them respectively.
Mab explicitly states that "it was the knife." So unless SHE was Nemfected (and thus could lie) we can safely assume that was the vector into Winter (Lea & Maeve).
Summer/Aurora looks likely to be Elaine, still. She may not even have been knowing/willing; or maybe Mortal Free Will was still allowing her to fight off the Nimfluence and work with Harry against Aurora...?
Not sure what you're arguing here. I don't disagree it was the Knife that infected Lea, and then Maeve by proxy eventually. But Lea had the Knife in Summer Knight, and was likely nemfected in this book. My point was that being nemfected allowed her to lie to Dresden (if she felt like it, we have this evidence from Cold Days) and therefore could have lied/misled Dresden on who paid the price for her help to see the Queens (i.e. not his Mother, but not price was paid at all - which is normally impossible for the Fae). And I agree Elaine is the likely infection point for Aurora, as I said above. Not convinced that Free Will trumps Nemesis, or that Elaine is actually infected necessarily. She could be enthralled to her master and given Elaine a tainted gift, like Lea received. She also may have saved Dresden for another purpose that aligns better with Nemesis' plans (like the fact he is a Destroyer).
It is not the flu, otherwise everyone would have it and the gates would be broken. Lea used the power of the knife and cat Sith was probably overpowered.
Lea had access to Maeve as confirmed in summer knight. The link between her and Aurora could have been the winter knight but I think Maeve simply did set up a meeting with Aurora and ambushed her. Seducing the winter knight came after that.
Arjan, no idea what you mean here. I am not sure who is arguing that Nemesis is like a highly infectious disease, but I am not. I have always maintained it has limits and chooses it's targets. When you say Lea used the power of the knife...what exactly do you mean? The Knife adds to her power, and as we have no idea how transmission occurs it is almost impossible to speculate on how the Knife actually passed it on to her. She may only have to touch it (like a Denarius) for it to be able to infect her. Cat Sith quite likely was overpowered, although again we have no idea how they actually managed to infect him (or who did it).
I completely disagree, as outlined above in my response to you earlier in this post. It's is too inefficient and complicated to have her infect Maeve just to infect Aurora. She could just infect Aurora herself. And if she couldn't meet with Aurora, infect one of her lesser retinue and have them pass it on. Why use the Winter Lady for such a task? You are also assuming that 1) Maeve could actually have gotten the better of Aurora and beaten her (unlikely considering Maeve was essentially a slave to the mantle she wore, and as Harry outlined that tends to give Summer and advantage as they are the perfect counter to Winter) and 2) that Aurora would have met with her polar opposite and enemy. Why would she even do it? The more you examine the situation you describe, the more complex it becomes. The simplest explanation is that Lea infected Aurora in Summer Knight, and infected Maeve later off-screen.
BA - Exactly. WC initial headquarters were originally not in Chicago, but effectively is now. Likely they have multiple bases all over the world. I always though LA or NY made more sense tbh.
But that's another weird thing. Why on earth was the last Die Lied Der Erlking in Chicago??! Surely there would have been more in Europe or other such places? I get the reason was so that Harry could be involved, but what if it had been London or Prague? Would Cowl have become a new god then? Would the book have been destroyed? Would anyone have noticed until it was too late and the White Council had been wiped out?
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Things are in Chicago because the book is centered in Chicago. So the frequency of anything tied to Chicago is related to Jim choice to site the series there. It doesn't tell you anything in and of itself.
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A few thoughts.
Chicago in general- it is a multi-layered crossroads. A freshwater port on an inland lake that connects to the ocean- twice. A major international airport hub. A railroad hub, a freeway hub. Located in the middle-ish of two mountain ranges, the Great Lakes, and the Great Plains, at the border of two nations. An old Celtic concept is that the more between something is, the greater the overlap with the Otherworld. Also, it’s a city in the sky- from a certain point of view. The entire city was lifted to solve a drainage problem in the 19th century; it’s on stilts. Canada is “cold”, the Great Plains are “hot”, and Chicago swings from one extreme to the other- it’s a good magical Law of Similarity for the “border” between Summer and Winter as well.
Venice would be your closest comparison, but is pretty definitely in Summer territory.
From a supernatural nations point of view; Europe is the primary stomping grounds of the White Council. South America was Red Court; one assumes China is Jade Court with a smattering of “they don’t do anything so White Council is there too.” Black Court was active in south-eastern Europe but was aggressively expansionistic; White Court appears to be Mediterranean originally (they speak Etruscan and favor the use of ghouls as muscle; ghouls speak Sumerian as a native tongue). Africa and Australia are unknown.
The White Council has been moving into North America, yet it seems that an effort to “recruit” in North America is new, like Ramirez-generation new. Let me suggest the following.
North America was *White Court* territory. This was a point of friction for New World wizards- McCoy, Liberty, Listens-to-Wind- and created a political block as a result in the White Council. Bianca was moving in to this territory specifically to assert a Red Court presence. Her success- right down to running a brothel, recalling that that would be what one would expect as a White Court thing- is why she’s promoted later.
The White Court previously published Stoker’s Dracula when the Black Court was threatening their territory in Europe (southeastern Europe).
Harry Dresden, walking magical boomstick, meanders into Chicago on his own, possibly originally for easy access to the Ways. He’s persona non grata in the Council and doesn’t interact with them.
Initially, he wanders into a turf Cold War between Bianca and Marcone. As a side effect, Bianca develops a personal hatred.
In Fool Moon, he embarrasses Madrigal Raith in front of the supernatural community (he was offering to auction Harry, recall).
Later, as a personal coup, Bianca attempts to kill him. Instead of directly violating the Accords, he releases his power to allow her dead victims to kill her and her ... scourge? This is the pretext for the Red Court to declare war, but this does not void the standing of the White Council, making it an internal matter between the two. Winner: White Court. The incursion on their territory is neutered.
Paolo Ortega then challenges Harry to a duel. He loses.
Blood Rites- the White King is embarrassed by the White Council. His newest daughter is lost to the White Court and the Raith family. One assumes this is internally considered . . .an embarrassment. The Black Court has also established a presence in Chicago in this book; moving in to the “empty” territory?
Sidenote: Dead beat, Death Masks - the White Court is inert/embarassed, the Red Court lost their local powerbase in Chicago, the Black Court has abandoned moving in. Harry and the White Council aren’t flexing their muscle; making this an ideal magical Casablanca, explaining the Denarian and necromancer use of it. One assumes that the “dark ley lines” of Demonreach are part of their intended use of Chicago. Vastly powerful ley lines and no major supernatural nation providing oversight?
Main argument: Proven Guilty- this is targeted at Dresden, so it’s incidentally in Chicago. Dresden again embarrasses Madrigal Raith.
White Night- the White King is facing an internal coup. Malvora and Skavis are killing the next generation of the White Council before birth to show that “the wizards are vulnerable.” This is an insult that implies that the White King is seen as being in retreat/afraid of the White Council. This is “saved” for Lara by Harry showing up to eliminate the champions of Malvora and Skavis, making him appear as her cat’s paw when combined with their previous interactions. Instead, it appears Lara set up the other two Houses. The “power vacuum” in Chicago that Harry didn’t realize he’d created is filled by John Marcone. Lara Raith discovers that Harry is still protected by True Love from Susan, presumably when she attempted to use her power on him at the end of the book. He was an unanticipated threat at that point, being immune.
Small Favor- the Denarians make a play for Marcone or the Archive. And Anastasia Luccio seduces Dresden, out of the blue, removing his Lara Raith protection. Again, this can be seen as a territorial dispute revolving around Chicago.
Turn Coat- again, personal to Dresden. Chicago is incidental.
Changes, Ghost Story- Personal to Dresden. Red Court is eliminated. In the aftermath, we see Marcone and Lara fending off the Fomor.
Cold Days- is really about Demonreach, which happens to be outside of Chicago.
Skin Game- Is personal. Mab has collaborated with Marcone for a vault with access to Hades’s vault to be located near the physical location of her Winter Knight.
Point is, what’s happening in Chicago is that Harry blundered into a turf war between two vampire courts; and his grandfather, being the Blackstaff, had enough White Council political clout to ensure that Harry was an actual full member of the White Council, with all rights and privileges applying thereof. Butcher tells us outright the White Court uses cat’s paws multiple times.
Returning to the OP:
1) When one court moves, the other must respond. Both ladies being in proximity makes sense, regardless of Nemfection. I suspect it has to do with their purpose. At a *guess*, the Winter Lady’s job is to entice Changelings to Choose Fae, as part of a broader portfolio to supply soldiers for the Reality War. The Summer Lady may have the same job for summer Fae, or may exist to ensure that the Changelings have Choice. The Winter Lady’s seductress act would fit this portfolio nicely.
2) The Summer Knight may have been in Chicago as a reaction to the budding turf war between Vampire Courts.
3) Nice catch, I missed this. And Lea is one of the nastiest Winter Fae, yes? Kemmler was allied with “most of the wicked Faeries.” Probably includes the Erlking, too- goblins aren’t exactly nice. WAG: Harry is following a mirror Kemmler path, and this will be story important at some point. From the outside, he certainly looks a lot like Kemmler from the initial brief description we get. Speaking terms with nasties, keeps coming up with power-ups.
4) I disagree here. I think it’s that the Knights aren’t bound by their power. A Fae not only lacks free will, but I imagine they can’t abrogate your free will either. Example: A musician told Maeve he’d give his life to play at a certain level. Maeve killed him by making him play himself to death, but *inspired* playing. If he hadn’t made that bargain, I don’t think she could have touched him. A Knight has the same freedom as any other mortal to frag anyone, even using their power. You irritate Mab but you don’t actually give her legal grounds to kill you? She can waste her time in elaborate vengeance, or just tell her Knight “That guy offends me. Deal with him.” No pretext, no cause- if Mab decided blondes were irritating, the Knight could go on a killing spree for her, as long as he could actually pull off the hit (Kincaid wouldn’t go down soft, nor would most of the Valkyries).
Additional note: One of my pet theories is that Harry isn’t the Winter Knight. Id-Harry is the Winter Knight, but Harry-Harry controls Id-Harry until he’s ready to make things go BOOM. This is part of what’s so attractive to Mab- a Knight who is master of the mantle, able to call on it, give it its head, or even tell it “stop that” depending on the situation. That would be why Id-Harry has the badge but Slate was branded.
I also have a super WAG that Harry’s not Harry, Id-Harry is Harry; Harry’s a fine thrall personality created so Id-Harry would be a controllable enforcer for DuMorne (immune/resistant to black magic backlash); but that Harry-Harry has existed long enough to “grow” his own soul, analogous to Lash-Lasciel. In fact, he would have been Harry-Harry for longer than he was Id-Harry.
Of course, my other WAG is that Harry is the 4th KOTC (Uriel’s Knight); and that’s why Mab is forced to accept Uriel’s intermittent interference. Since the other three are Faith (Gabriel), Hope (Michael), and Love (Raphael); my wife and I enjoy discussing what he might be the Knight of, my wife likes “Acts/Actions” and I favor “Judgment” or “Vengeance.” Puts a completely different spin on that scene with Cassius, when he claims to “repent” and Michael says, emphasis mine, “We can’t do anything to him”- and then the other three Knights process to let the 4th Knight break his kneecaps for information. HE can do something to Cassius. Faith in God, Hope in God, Love of God, Judgment of God.
The infusion with Soulfire would be analogous to Butter’s Lightsaber- it appeared when Harry went running into a Denarian ambush to save a little girl. His first use was a hand that literally smacked Thorned Namshiel around. Or maybe the Lance of Longinus is the 4th Nail. Or both.
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Can't be true unless Mab lied or was mistaken, both of which are highly unlikely. She explicitly says it was the knife that was the vector of infection to Lea, implying Lea infected Maeve.
So: Knife => Lea => Maeve Is what you get from Mab. From her nothing about when Maeve was infected but it is suspicious that Maeve talked about Lea to Harry the way she did in Summer Knight.
Maeve was unlikely to have been infected in Summer Knight as she actually helps Harry get to Aurora and stop her, and is not working with Aurora.
I won't call that help. She obstructed Harry and only did the bare minimum not to get suspected by Mab.
Aurora was short term and served as a good distraction for Maeve.
It was Actually Elaine who helped Harry at the decisive moment at the end so Harry could confront Aurora. She could have dropped the thorns on Harry and everything would have been over.
If they did (like Maeve and Lily in Cold Days) they really could have upset everything, and been a much more difficult issue. Also why would Lea infect Maeve and have her infect Aurora?
Lea would have easy access to Maeve. Aurora would have been totally different for her. And Maeve was the real long term asset. Aurora was sacrificed for an immediate stab.
Maeve could have played Aurora's role in Summer Knight just as easily but in reverse (in fact she would have relished killing Slate). Occam's razor - she wasn't infected yet.
Why? she had Aurora for that and could stay hidden.
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But that's another weird thing. Why on earth was the last Die Lied Der Erlking in Chicago??! Surely there would have been more in Europe or other such places? I get the reason was so that Harry could be involved, but what if it had been London or Prague? Would Cowl have become a new god then? Would the book have been destroyed? Would anyone have noticed until it was too late and the White Council had been wiped out?
Cowl had been going around destroying them already. Why go to the end of the line first? There probably would have been more in Europe, so, if efficiency was necessary, starting in Europe would make more sense. (But Ways, so take that explanation with a grain of salt).
In Fool MoonProven Guilty, he embarrasses Madrigal Raith in front of the supernatural community (he was offering to auction Harry, recall).
Not everything important happens in Chicago. The war with the Reds was pretty global. A Senior Council member is murdered in Archangel, Russia. The shroud is stolen in Italy. It only comes to Chicago because of Marcone. Ortega is assassinated in Honduras. The Wardens are basically wiped out in Italy and Africa. There is a major battle with the Red Court where Morgan nearly kills the Red King. At the same time, Luccio's training camp is attacked with Michael in proximity. The events of White Night happen all over America, or at least their lead up. Another Senior Council member is assassinated, this time in Edinburgh. The major events of Changes happen in Mexico. I don't recall when it happened, but there was that situation with the Rakshasa. The Fomor is a global situation.
I'm sure there is other stuff going on, but we know more about what happens in proximity to Harry. I do think it would be fun if Jim takes advantage of Margaret's knowledge of the Ways to really broaden the story, and I think shelving that knowledge seems like something that would happen in those other stories about a wizard named Harry. On the other hand, I don't really care too much about where the story takes place.
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Morris- I am aware of the reason that Jim uses as an author...but as I said earlier, I would prefer a better narrative reason. What I am saying really is that I believe the book has outgrown the Chicago setting. Jim doesn't need to stick to the "cookie-cutter" rules as he calls them as much anymore. He can afford to take risks and leave Chicago every now and then, and make it a more interconnected book. Even if he stays within America. Which isn't to say he doesn't sometimes jump around, but it is few and far between.
BFB -
Okay, interesting points on the Chicago take. Best I have heard so far.
I like your thoughts on the divvying up of the place, although one imagines it is more populous and complicated. The Fae seem to be everywhere, as do the Fomor. Not to mention there isn't much discussion about smaller parts of the world, and what supernatural events/territories are happening there (like Africa).
1) I agree with what your saying, but it doesn't really examine properly why they were there around the time the Red Court war kicks off. It is too big of a coincidence imho.
2) Possibly, but it is sort of implied he lives there. He has an apartment where Fix, Meryl, Lily, and Ace took refuge from Lloyd Slate.
3) Thanks, it was buried well until recently. Yeah I forgot that Kemmler had links to "the nastier Faeries". We never have really explored which Faeries they would be...Lea would be a highly likely candidate. Mab seemed to know him, the Erlking does seem oddly connected to him, the Red Cap would be a fit. But who else? Harry does seem to parallel him in many ways...I wonder if Kemmler was a starborn himself?
4) I see what you're getting at. Except it is only the QUEENS that cannot kill (i.e. abrogate mortal Free Will). All the other Fae can do as they wish in that regard. So why can't the Queens just use any of their normal monsters to kill humans then? Well they can, and often do. The Knights have a more specific, more complex and unique purpose. Bob explained them as the wetworks guys of the Courts. But it is more about WHOM specifically they can, and are meant to kill. And probably about whatever other functions they perform for the Queens. They also seem to be a failsafe and an enforcer of the Queens' will. But mostly it is the combination of universal elemental power with mortal free will - and to be a mere hatchet man seems like a huge waste.
Your super WAG is very interesting. And has precedent (Lash-Lasciel, Bob-Evil Bob, etc). If Harry were in fact merely the "good" version and his evil or Id nature had been held at bay for years, what might happen if the barriers were taken off? Like the fairly bad X-men 3 movie, Jean Grey's alternate personality "Phoenix".
I don't see him as the Fourth Knight of the Cross. For a start, Heaven seems to be pretty big on Free Will. I think they couldn't sign you on without actually asking you...and afaik Harry never was offered or agreed to such a role. Uriel isn't like a Fae; he isn't trying to entrap people. Also pretty sure God is the only Judge in the Christian Faith, his other agents merely carry out his will. The Soulfire angle is intriguing I admit though...but I think Soulfire isn't a nail. Nor is the Lance of Longinus. So it would be hard to be a Knight of the Cross without a connection to the Cross (i.e. a nail).
Arjan -
Considering it was the first time we meet Maeve, it is hard to judge what her "normal" behaviour is. It would have been good to have a story set when Maeve was clearly Maeve, and no doubt could be cast on her behaviour (from being nemfected) to use as a control against later scenes. I admit it is possible that she was nemfected, as the timing is close enough. But still very unlikely to me, for reasons previously outlined.
How doesn't she help Harry? She literally saves him from certain death in the battle of Chicago-over-Chicago, and clears his path to Aurora and the Stone Table (who had not yet raised the Thorn Barrier).
What do you mean by "Aurora being short term" and how is she a distraction for Maeve? As I said, if they had worked together the plan would have succeeded. Why wait? Who was Maeve distracting? Harry? If they had unbalanced the Courts it would have aided Nemesis' plans. I believe Elaine was rebelling in her own small way - helping Harry the best she could without overtly stopping Aurora. Always to maintain her cover.
I think you're argument is that Aurora was a quick and dirty opportunity, sacrificed to test the defences etc. Whilst Maeve was always meant to be a more successful asset. Like Nicodemus with the Fake Shroud (playing Apocalypse lottery) versus whatever his long term plan is.
Except there isn't any real evidence to say that Aurora was meant to be a short term asset. We have NO IDEA when she got infected. If Elaine did it it could have been even 10 years before Summer Knight. Her plan was well thought out and planned, and didn't rely on a window that had opened up. She kicked off her play by killing Reuel (the former Summer Knight) which set the pace from there.
Why? she had Aurora for that and could stay hidden.
Because together they could have succeeded, and why did she need to stay hidden? The simplest answer is that she wasn't nemfected. If they were both nemfected why weren't they working together, even in secret? What was staying hidden for? What was Maeve and/or Nemesis waiting for? What is your theory there?
Bad Alias -
But was Chicago the end of the line? He could have started in Chicago and kept going around to destroy the others? But if there were others in America as well why not start there? In fact, he may well have been lying when he said he was destroying them. The implication is that the Reds made a deal with Cowl that they would distract the White Council enough so that he could become a God and in return eliminate the Senior Council for them. Harry pretty much says that at the end of Dead Beat. So even if he was destroying the book (presumably to stop the competition) the real reason Chicago makes sense for that book is because Bob was there. But how the hell would Cowl know that? Because Cowl is Justin. He knew Harry took Bob and knows he still has him. That was his ace-in-the-hole.
But Dead Beat doesn't make sense if Cowl didn't intend to be a God at all. The attack on the White Council, the arrival on Halloween of all nights, the summoning of the Wild Hunt. These were not coincidences.
I agree not everything happens there, but it seems like a disproportionate amount of important stuff happens there. As I said to Morris, I think the story has outgrown Chicago and Jim can afford to take the series into other parts of the world. Lol I agree, some writers just give off interesting information which they never use again.
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The goal in summer knight is to destabilize the sidhe courts but the end goal is always to open the gates and destabilization is not enough without a force in place to make use of it because in the end the courts will find a new equilibrium.
Maeve would have been in the right place to make use of the destabilization.
I think it is shown the infection can work in several ways. It can completely take over as we have seen with cat Sith and Lea or it can change the hosts nature to make it more compatible with its aims. but every infection is unique in its interaction between the host and nemesis.
And some infections or maybe all need careful management. It could be that during Summer Knight most of Nemesis attention was focused on Aurora, which gave Lea the idea that she could fight it alone, and that Maeve was not aware of the infection yet and could only be carefully influenced or taken over completely. Her deal with Nemesis was yet to come.
Maeve was kept in reserve for the final blow when the Sidhe courts were in total chaos.
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1) I agree with what your saying, but it doesn't really examine properly why they were there around the time the Red Court war kicks off. It is too big of a coincidence imho.
If by they, you mean the Faerie Courts, they moved in just after the RCW kicked off. Harry suspects it's because of the weakening of the border to the Nevernever that Bianca did. Which may have been the point of whoever is pulling the strings.
Chicago would be the end of the line because that's where the Word of Kemmler was. That's why they were in Chicago.
Maeve was playing Lily and gloating a lot. All very Maeve. Aurora was "helping." They were acting in character but against their natures. Maybe nemfection is like mind magic in that it can only bend someone so far before they break. That would explain why they wouldn't have worked together if both were infected, but I do agree it's simpler if Maeve isn't infected yet, or the infection hadn't yet taken root.
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Nemfection has to work a bit like mind magic and a bit like possession depending on the amount of influence and control Nemesis wants. Mind magic for long term and possession for immediate concerns.
For the infection to kept hidden and the hosts somewhat functional the hosts nature must not be changed too much and the host will function mostly on autopilot as it did before.
So an infected person can sometimes do something against Nemesis in line with their original nature if Nemesis is distracted but not at crucial moments.
We see that later Maeve still acts based on her mommy issues. Nemesis works with what is available just like mind magic.
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For the infection to kept hidden and the hosts somewhat functional the hosts nature must not be changed too much and the host will function mostly on autopilot as it did before.
Yes, Aurora appeared almost normal, Harry bought into her compassion as soon as he met her. Maeve on the other hand had her issues so until things got out of hand nothing seemed all that unusual about her.
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Yeah but Harry had no idea Maeve had issues when he met her for the first time, nor Aurora...he didn't even know they existed! How Harry perceived them in their first encounters respectively is really irrelevant to whether they were or were not infected.
Arjan - It's a interesting take, but it is just speculation. You don't know how Nemesis work functionally within a host. You are guessing. Perhaps it works like mind magic, perhaps like Denarian influence, perhaps like ghost/demon possession. But we don't KNOW because there is no text evidence or WOJ to prove it. You are just assuming how it works. We only know that it is sentient, and that it likes to keep some assets covert and seemingly unaware (although we haven't seen the thoughts from the inside). But we have seen it can take full control of an asset if necessary, and we have seen that it can cause beings to violate their fundamental nature.
You might be right about the goals, but we didn't see enough of the big picture in Summer Knight to know what was going on. The fact Rashid shows up tells me that he probably wasn't needed at the Outer Gates, so their likely wasn't a major assault. But he did take a keen interests in events, and push them in Harry's favour so he likely was doing some part of his job. If Aurora had destabilised the Courts, it would have meant the mortal world was less able to stop the agents of the Outsiders from opening the gates etc. Winter winning against Summer would only have made them lose overall. That was the real play, even if Aurora couldn't see it. Mothers Summer and Winter pretty much say this "the boy can see what she cannot" to paraphrase.
But what evidence do you have from the books, or WOJ, that Maeve was kept in reserve? It isn't even implied as far as I can tell.
Bad Alias -
I meant the Ladies, specifically. But excellent reminder, the Heirs of Kemmler had to be in Chicago as it was Bone Tony who found the Word at a WWII auction locker and was selling it, drawing them in. Although Bob being the back up was awfully convenient. Still.
I am sure that if they were both infected, Nemesis could have made them work together. If it couldn't, it really isn't the threat everyone says it is.
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IMO everything that happens in the run up to Cold Days involving the Fae Courts is part of the attack on Mab and the attempt to breach the Gates. Aurora is part of that. Remember what Mother Summer tells you about Titania's purpose. With Summer weakened and the Courts out of balance the brakes would be off. But it would be a distraction, giving events a chance to play out. The vampire wars, and the ascendance of Cowl.
The narrative reason that the events happen in Chicago is that Harry is there. He is the Nexus, not the place. This is pounded out in the text over and over. Everything that happens has to be looked at through that particular lens. The reason that Demonreach exists there is part of that. It almost certainly has to be. Merlin had to foresee this in whatever fashion. And as such it had to guide his choice.
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We have seen it taking direct control of Cat Sith in cold days.
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We have seen it taking direct control of Cat Sith in cold days.
Indeed, the question is at what point did he become infected? It has been a while but didn't Mab assign him to assist Harry? I seem to remember something to that effect. Anyway Harry didn't immediately perceive that Cat Sith was infected. The reason for that could be until he met with Titania that he then became more vigilant.. So was it that, or did Maeve or someone else infect Cat Sith mid-book?
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Nemfection may vary from mild to severe and build over time. We've seen with Lea that it can be overcome. We've seen with Cat Sith that it can be fought. We've also seen with Cat Sith that if it is fought, and the fight is lost, it's obvious that the victim isn't in control. From this, I conclude that it is exceedingly likely that Nemesis can only push the host so far from their natures, desires, or whatever it is that would make them want to fight.
@Yuillegan: We have a theory expressed in text that the Ladies are in Chicago because of the events of Grave Peril generally. It was my mistaken recollection that it was more precisely because of the weakening of the barrier.
"The Cold Lady came to Undertown. Her court is in Undertown."
"What?" I sputtered. "Since when?"
Toot whirled around in impatient loops in the air. "Since the last autumn!"
I scratched at my hair. It made sense, I supposed. Last autumn, a vengeful vampire and her allies had stirred up all srts of supernatural mischief, creating turbulence in the border between the real world and the Nevernever, the world of spirit. Shortly after, the war between the wizards and the vampires had begun.
Those events had probably attracted the attention of all sorts of things.
There's also a mention in one of the books about the supernatural being drawn to places like Chicago. I think the explanation had to do with ley lines, but I'm not sure.
With major events happening early on drawing in important supernatural parties, certain fixed features of Chicago (ley line, Ways, and mortal nexus, Demonreach, and probably more), and Harry's ability to make thinks spin out of control and be/end up in the center of things, it's not surprising that more and more activity happens in Chicago. These things snowball.
I do like the theory that Harry isn't immune to whatever draws all these things to Chicago in the first place. I mean, what are the chances anyone ends up in Van Buren, Missouri, or anything important happens there?
Also, we have the problem of perspective. We only see what Harry sees in the worst week of his year, whatever happens in short stories, and whatever happens to get mentioned in that worst week.
All that said, I totally agree that Jim has the opportunity to broaden the geographic scope of the story. I'm not sure if the story would benefit or suffer from that. I imagine it takes a lot of research to get the scenery right, and it's easy to make mistakes. I know when authors get things I know well wrong, it pulls me out of the story.
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We have seen it taking direct control of Cat Sith in cold days.
Yep...what's your point?
Mira - Harry believes that Cat Sith was taken and infected when covering the exit for Harry, during the meeting with Maeve and Lily. Sharkface was watching and captured him, and infected him. It's a plausible theory because Sharkface had just shown up and Cat Sith only goes missing right after the meeting at the Botanic Gardens. Harry could be wrong of course...but it has the credibility of simplicity. Maeve wouldn't have done it openly and risk blowing her cover with Lily and her entourage, and she was busy at that point. No one else was yet infected that we know of (so an unknown is less likely than a known party).
Morris - I think a theory along those lines has been mentioned before, and it is an interesting one. Cold Days is a serious book after all. But to me it feels more like each step aids the previous step but each step is also important in its own right, but considering to the Outsiders time would be something of a strange concept, whether events were building towards something or every event is meant to succeed is debatable. Outsiders live Outside (as in outside the universe, perhaps outside Creation altogether - definitely that is hinted at). They would only be aware of 4D space-time as it relates to them upon entering the horizon of Reality. Cause and effect, living forever or not, would be somewhat moot points. The circle of eternity closed from the outside would look much stranger than from within. For example, it could be that while 10,000 years pass on Earth but Outside the universe that event also appears to be happening as the same attack in Cold Days and the inevitable Grand Finale in the BAT. Time is relative in the universe, and it is a very mortal and human thing to experience it linearly.
And I hope you are right, that Merlin and Angels and all the rest planned out Chicago as the site of everything based on this one Wizard called Dresden. But I just would like Jim to address it. Because as you point out, Demonreach is in Chicago. I don't know if it has occured to anyone, but Merlin was a British Wizard. Why on earth would he build it in America (which during his time was not even necessarily known to exist)?! The sheer convenience of Chicago in some ways is more unbelievable than the rest of the world combined! Don't get me wrong, I love the setting. But it is starting to break my immersion.
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I don't know if it has occured to anyone, but Merlin was a British Wizard. Why on earth would he build [Demonreach] in America (which during his time was not even necessarily known to exist)?!
It being beyond the reach of civilization may have been the point. Building such a thing in such a remote part of the world, away from all centers of, at least mortal, power makes a ton of since for me. Even over a thousand years later, it's a difficult place to get to regardless of any of the magical reasons that make it hard to get to.
It has occurred to me. It's part of my theory that the "lighthouse" on Demonreach isn't a lighthouse but is a wizard's tower. Or at least was.
Thinking of it's remoteness, and the Gatekeeper's ease of showing up there, the thought popped up that maybe his beef with Demonreach is that he was once the Warden and he released a prisoner for some reason. He stopped being Warden somehow. Demonreach holds a grudge because of the released prisoner.
It's just a thought that came to me. I don't think it's right, but figured I'd throw it out there anyway.
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Bad Alias -
Just to be clear, Lea's nemfection was overcome with Mab's help. That is not insignificant. Her power is the one meant specifically to fight Outsiders and their magic. I suspect only Mother Winter herself would be better. We don't have any examples of anyone doing it on their own. And she did it in Winter's own wellspring at the heart of her power. More than a little help. Cat Sith's struggle always seemed more like someone realizing that they might not be alone in their own head, but it was too late, rather than one of a tireless battle from the first infection. Most virus' on your computer are far more effective running in the background where the computer and the user don't even see them. I suspect Nemesis is much the same. Which isn't to say that when they run openly they are not useful to the malicious actors behind the virus, and very terrifying at the same time, because they absolutely are. But it all depends on context and strategy.
I did wonder if Jim's original reason was to do with the weakening of the barrier so they could cross over. When he wrote Summer Knight, the universe seemed to operate by slightly different rules. Fae seemed to cast more spells using words, Harry used magical Names as well as English ones, Fae and Vampires were weaker and couldn't do certain things outside of Faerie (according to Harry), the Ladies were weaker and the Queens were stronger, and crossing between the Never-never and the real world was a lot harder and more significant. But things have been soft-retconned and changed slightly over time. Fae don't seem to say spells (rather just perform them), Harry uses mostly English words as Names, Fae and Vamps are stronger and seem to have no issue doing things outside of Faerie that Harry used to only think mortals could do, Ladies are stronger and the Queens got a little bit nerfed, and going between the Never-never and the real world seems as simple and normal for everyone as walking through a door.
What I am getting at is that it is hard to know what ideas and rules survived from the early series, and it becomes harder to base ideas and WAGs of concepts and text in the early series.
The ley line argument answers some of the problem...you can't tell me that nowhere in Britain or Europe had enough ley lines to build Demonreach etc.
Exactly, why doesn't anything happen in Van Buren eh?? Perspective is god, and hopefully we shall get further perspectives that will answer more of this.
Totally agree as to the writing reasons, it is very difficult to get a city right let alone several. But that's just part of the job as an author I think, getting your research done. It's a hard slog and no one really likes it after a while, but I think the payoff of having a broader story and expanded world is far greater and ultimately more satisfying. Harry isn't a Wizard PI in Chicago anymore - it's time to throw away the mold and let loose.
Well I am sure the local Native American's might not have been super happy with Merlin, I doubt they felt their part of the world was remote enough. Why not build it in Antartica then? Or a remote island in the Pacific? Or the middle of the desert in Africa or Australia?
I have often wondered if Demonreach moves around, or is accessible from several places. Perhaps the original site was an island in England, but has moved with the center of Western Power (i.e. the United States). Rick Riordan did something similar in his series I believe with the Greek Gods following the heart or flame of Western Civilization (Greece to Italy to Britain to America or something like that).
Or perhaps their is more than one entrance, a polar opposite on the other side of the world would make sense. Which I believe would be between the East Coast of Africa and the West Coast of Australia. The only thing there is a few tiny Islands maybe discovered by the Dutch and owned by the French - Ile de la Nouvelle-Amsterdam and another smaller one.
Jim sort of told us why Demonreach is mad at Rashid...similar to in Cold Days how there was an attack on the Gates as well as Demonreach, I suspect there was a similar occasion where in order to relieve pressure perhaps on the Outer Gates or elsewhere, Rashid redirected the enemy to Demonreach in order to secure his own area (believing that Demonreach could weather the assault). I suspect Alfred is upset because ANYTHING that threatens the security of the inmates is antithetical to it, and so bears the grudge. OR Rashid failed to come to Demonreach's aid by putting all his resources and efforts into killing an enemy tank, forcing Alfred to bear the burden alone and almost be overwhelmed (perhaps he even briefly was).
Jim called the tactic "focusing the tank" which comes from MOBA type games, an idea to let a "tanky" character absorb the the frontal assault while the other team mates outflank the enemy etc. or put all your energies into killing an enemy tank. If I understand it correctly.
But it wouldn't surprise me if Rashid had once been the Warden, seems like his sort of thing.
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There is a WOJ on the limp, supposedly Demonreach got it mixing it up with a glacier. Not in a fight with the Gatekeeper. Good luck finding it.
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Yes I am familiar with it. The glacier caused the limp, which I took to mean the island of Demonreach being cut off from the mainland or something geographical in nature.
The limp had nothing to do with Demonreach's grudge against Rashid - that was Harry's mistaken assumption (the WOJ that you mentioned Morris covers that).
2009 Independence signing:
Can you tell us more about the runes on the cottage and the lighthouse?
They were not put there by Demonreach; they have been there a very long time. They are pre-Council. They’re a prehistoric script, actually. Harry could have figured out the script if he’d had the comic book. NOTE: I think this has something to do with runes on a wall in Under City seen in Welcome to the Jungle
Also, people have a few things wrong about the Gatekeeper and the island. The Gatekeeper did not hurt Demonreach. Gatekeeper has been on the island a couple of times, and it’s never gone well, but he didn’t cause Demonreach’s limp. That’s the work of the glacier that carved out Lake Michigan.
Unfortunately, I think that kills the idea the Rashid is a former Warden. Visiting the island a couple of times probably isn't enough if you were the Warden.
Also those runes in Welcome to the Jungle and on Demonreach...I had a theory a while back about them being related to the Hyperboreans and Atlanteans. Harry should really do some digging.
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Bad Alias -
Just to be clear, Lea's nemfection was overcome with Mab's help. That is not insignificant. ... Cat Sith's struggle always seemed more like someone realizing that they might not be alone in their own head, but it was too late, rather than one of a tireless battle from the first infection.
Agree, but I do think it shows us something about Nemesis.
I did wonder if Jim's original reason was to do with the weakening of the barrier so they could cross over. When he wrote Summer Knight, the universe seemed to operate by slightly different rules. Fae seemed to cast more spells using words, Harry used magical Names as well as English ones, Fae and Vampires were weaker and couldn't do certain things outside of Faerie (according to Harry), the Ladies were weaker and the Queens were stronger, and crossing between the Never-never and the real world was a lot harder and more significant. But things have been soft-retconned and changed slightly over time. Fae don't seem to say spells (rather just perform them), Harry uses mostly English words as Names, Fae and Vamps are stronger and seem to have no issue doing things outside of Faerie that Harry used to only think mortals could do, Ladies are stronger and the Queens got a little bit nerfed, and going between the Never-never and the real world seems as simple and normal for everyone as walking through a door.
What I am getting at is that it is hard to know what ideas and rules survived from the early series, and it becomes harder to base ideas and WAGs of concepts and text in the early series.
I really think Jim has done a very good job of retconning the early books. For example, Harry's statements of Bianca not being able to pull the heart spell off outside of the Nevernever still works because it's become clear he had underestimated vampires abilities with magic generally and things are easier in the Nevernever. Also, Harry and Morgan didn't know how someone was pulling it off until near the end of the book because it was a big deal. The claim that they're creatures of the Nevernever is a clearer example of something that seems to have just been straight retconned, but those examples are rarer than the things that can be explained by Harry learning that he was wrong. I think the opening the Ways thing is that Harry has just gotten a lot better and he's not swimming in the kiddie pool anymore. Also, he's not terrified Lea is going to be there to turn him into a dog. Basically, I don't feel like that one was even soft-retconned.
Exactly, why doesn't anything happen in Van Buren eh??
Because I picked a randomish state and then a randomish city with a population under 1,000 from a list I found on the internet?
Well I am sure the local Native American's might not have been super happy with Merlin, I doubt they felt their part of the world was remote enough. Why not build it in Antartica then? Or a remote island in the Pacific? Or the middle of the desert in Africa or Australia?
Good points. Rashid travels to the darkside of the Moon via the Nevernever, so it's not like a more remote place couldn't be reached. But maybe those places were too remote? New Wardens are going to have to be able to get there. When I brought up remoteness, I was only considering difficulty of people stumbling upon it, not damages to local populations. Maybe Merlin needed to be close to a supernaturally significant area like Chicago to pull it off(if it was indeed supernaturally significant before people got there)?
Unfortunately, I think that kills the idea the Rashid is a former Warden.
It was just a passing thought. I had forgotten about the focusing the tank quote. Thanks for reminding me. That's the fun of this board.
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Indeed, the question is at what point did he become infected? It has been a while but didn't Mab assign him to assist Harry? I seem to remember something to that effect. Anyway Harry didn't immediately perceive that Cat Sith was infected. The reason for that could be until he met with Titania that he then became more vigilant.. So was it that, or did Maeve or someone else infect Cat Sith mid-book?
Harry speculates about that when he fights Cat Sith.
“You see,” I said, “Cat Sith is a creature of Faerie, and he swore an oath to Queen Mab to obey her commands. She commanded him to obey mine. And I just gave you a command, kitty. Did Mab release you from her command? Did she suspend the duties of her vassal?”
Sith snarled again, his eyes getting wider and rounder, his tail thrashing around wildly.
“They got to you, didn’t they?” I said. “They jumped you back at the Botanic Gardens while you were covering my exit. Freaking Sharkface was watching the whole thing and he got you.”
They just changed Cat Sith mind a bit so his aggression was no longer bound by the oath he gave to Mab. That is much like mind magic. When that was not enough they switched to more direct possession. Much of how Nemesis can work was shown in that confrontation.
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Funny thing about the lighthouse. If it had been there when the glaciers came through and carved out the Great Lakes it makes you wonder how he lighthouse could have survived? There would have been a one mile thick, minimum, sheet of ice grinding away. The stones on that lighthouse must be super stones and God only knows about the mortar.
The older I get the less I trust what Jim says. I'm minded of Obi Wan speaking to Luke when he says, "What I told you was the truth, in a way...." or whatever the precise quote is.
Vadderung suggests in Cold Days that one of the reasons that the prison was put where it was, was because of the water surrounding the island, which would not have been there until after the retreat of the ice.
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Alfred Demonreach has been there forever* and was injured by the glacier or simply reflects the carving of the earth by the ice of the glaciers. Alfred Demonreach was not created by Merlin. Demonreach the Prison was, and we only know that Merlin created it in "five times at once" or whatever the proper quote was. We don't know when the first time was. I suspect it was after the island was an island.
Or at least that's my understanding of the history of the island. I'm not sure if my understanding has been challenged enough to be cemented.
@Yuillegan: Alfred Demonreach could be another reason the Prison was built on Demonreach.
*By forever I just mean a sufficiently long enough time that we can ignore his "birth" for the sake of this conversation.
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Harry speculates about that when he fights Cat Sith ...
Harry first worries about it back at Molly's apartment, when he calls for Sith and Sith unexpectedly doesn't respond. He gets extra-annoying, "Here, kitty-kitty-kitty..." and Sarissa almost panics.
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Harry first worries about it back at Molly's apartment, when he calls for Sith and Sith unexpectedly doesn't respond. He gets extra-annoying, "Here, kitty-kitty-kitty..." and Sarissa almost panics.
Which is right after the meeting at the Botanic Gardens...which is how he deduces that Cat Sith got jumped right after.
BA -
Not sure that Demonreach was there before Merlin built the Prison. He says he is the bars, the gates, the walls etc. I think he is a creation of the Prison. He is ancient because the Prison was also created in prehistoric times, whenever Merlin's earliest point in time was that he created the Prison.
It's curious that the glacier caused a limp, because I have always assumed the Prison was built so early that the island was once part of the main land and the glacier was responsible for making it an island. However, as Morris points out, Vadderung says the Prison was built specifically there because one of the reasons was that the island was surrounded by water. So which is it?
The Cat Sith infection does show plenty about Nemesis, but only some symptoms. Nowhere near enough to make any sort of reliable conclusions.
I agree - Jim has done quite well at subtly retconning a lot of the early stuff by being both clever and vague. When I was talking about passing in and out of the Nevernever, I meant for supernatural creatures. They used to have a much harder time coming across, I even think it is in one book where they say it is much easier to open a door from this side, than from the Nevernever. Which has mostly been retconned.
I was just being facetious about Van Buren, wasn't meant to be taken literally. :)
Yeah I suspect the Moon was unviable for a number of reasons lol. In general it had to be accessible enough for the Warden, and I daresay it had to be on Earth literally. Something to do with Genius Loci I imagine, among other things. I guess I think there were places more remote without being on the other side of the world that Merlin could have chosen. He didn't for whatever reason, I hope we find out why. Maybe Merlin is Harry. That would make most sense to me.
Indeed, some of the best fun of this board is how much everyone has tucked away. You constantly are reminding me of details I forget as well, as do many others. Together we have Dresden Files Intellectus!
Morris - I agree. Jim is getting shifty. Or perhaps I am noticing more. Either way, gotta take a fair bit of what he says with a grain of salt. But that doesn't mean he is completely unreliable either. Just enough to make us paranoid :o
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This has got me somewhat curious about what we actually know about Alfred, the Island, and the Prison. They're a little trinitarian in that they're all one, and they're all distinct. I don't think we know the order they came about. I mean, we've inferred opposite conclusions about whether Alfred or the Prison came first. We both have good reasons.
Nowhere near enough to make any sort of reliable conclusions.
Umm. . . You do realize where you're posting, right? ;)
I even think it is in one book where they say it is much easier to open a door from this side, than from the Nevernever. Which has mostly been retconned.
I was just being facetious about Van Buren, wasn't meant to be taken literally. :)
Proven Guilty talks about it. I think if we went through and analyzed it, I think you might be surprised.
But responding strengthened my argument. :)
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Indeed. A very odd Trinity. Many mysteries to be solved. I kind of wish more of the time between Cold Days and Skin Game had been shown. It would be enlightening to know more about how the islands defenses work etc. Just goes to show perspective is everything and we all see things a bit differently. Hopefully Jim clears it up!
Yeah, on this forum anything goes. I might have been unwise to push for sound theories. :P
Perhaps so, would make a good activity. I might even do it just for fun! In all the free time I don't have. I think by now even PG is considered early.
I thought we were on the same page now? We both think he has done a good job retconning stuff? I never thought Harry had a major issue crossing in and out of the Nevernever (although he often says it is really hard). Just that the supernatural have a hard time crossing to here...but maybe I am over thinking that.
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Clarification: Responding to the Van Buren comment strengthened my argument as to why it makes sense that so much happens in Chicago. Or at least that's the "joke."
I like the idea that things happen in Chicago because things are drawn there, and that's how Harry ended up there. He isn't immune to the draws, mystical and otherwise. There's a reason nearly 3 million people live there.
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Aha! I get you now. Bloody written medium making it harder to communicate.
It isn't a bad theory, but I just feel it needs more work. Jim will figure it out I am sure.
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Good observations overall, but I think based on SF/CD/SG especially, you're underselling just how important an agent with Free Will is for the Courts. In essence the Courts are finely balanced to a T, and the Knights can do whatever they like and tilt those balances. Plus, they're the actor who can truly bring in outside power and add it to the Courts (all the other Fae have to strike bargains which obviously bring in a trickle of benefits).
Except they're not actually balanced. The entirety of summer is balanced with the fraction of winter that isn't on guard duty.
Which kind of messes up the point of SK. Like, OK, let's say Aurora succeeds in unbalancing the courts by transferring some of summer's power to winter. Can't Mab just redeploy an equivalent measure of winter's forces to gate duty, and make things that little bit harder for the outsiders?
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Mother Summer answers this in Cold Days.
Titania cannot match Mab's forces, but she can drag Mab personally into oblivion with her.......
This is probably a retcon, but Jim used this idea to pin Mab at Arctis Tor in PG when she was attacked.
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My interpretation is that Mab is faced with a war on two fronts, which she couldn't win. She doesn't have the ability to hold the Gates and defeat Summer. Summer doesn't have the ability take Winter. As long as Mab has to devote forces to the Gates, Summer and Winter are evenly matched.
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... Can't Mab just redeploy an equivalent measure of winter's forces to gate duty, and make things that little bit harder for the outsiders?
No; because there IS no equivalent to a Knight; it's not about the "force" or the military might.
The Knights can do things in/with/for/to their respective Courts, that the Queens have no other way to do.
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Snark Knight makes a good point.
But I think Morris actually touches on something that gets to the heart of it. The Queens (all of them, Summer AND Winter) are all inextricably linked. Consider the Mother's relationship (what one knows, the other knows). Harry even realises this when he goes to Titania to figure out if Mab is actually nemfected. I don't think Titania necessarily has to kill Mab in contested violence exactly. I think there is a deeper, more serious connection. I suspect there is a fail-safe mechanism for the Courts that Summer can utilise in order to stop Mab. Consider the fact that Harry is considered a viable choice to kill Mab because he has Winter. I think the Queens are connected on a deeper level than there respective alignment of Summer and Winter, all to do with what they truly are. The ability of the Wyld Fae to even Choose which side they go to even hints at this i.e. beneath it all they are all linked.
I don't think it is a retcon Morris. Cold Days is pretty recent, as the series goes. As for Mab being pinned at Artic Tor, don't forget she was "healing" Lea. She HAD to be there. Her Knight was there too (a critical chunk of her power) and her most powerful servant was there (Lea). Mab's ability to be in multiple places at once relies on proxies and representatives. Normally she could have attended the border with Summer and Lea at the Outer Gates, or vice-versa (or whatever). Jim says that is why Lea and Mab rarely are in the same place. Mab could have attended the Outer Gates, but she relies on her forces there and the Gatekeeper to hold it. She couldn't risk Lea escaping or not getting better. Summer wasn't attacking but merely waiting at the border, so she wasn't yet required to take the field.
AND she had just been attacked by the Black Council/Circle/Nemesis-infected forces. Not for nothing, she was defending the heart of Winter. Curiously, I wonder why the Mothers almost never intervene? There are a few theories about why they assaulted Arctis Tor at that moment (some involving Time Travel). Some think it was to rescue Lea (a potent asset). Some even think it might have been to with Molly or Slate. And perhaps there were completely different reasons not yet stated.
Also, I think it worth considering that although Mab is the defender of Reality...I am not so sure she doesn't have other plans that are bad for humanity. I don't believe that Summer is just there to hound Mab when her monsters go and eat people. I think they are actively suppressing her, they certainly have been much more the aggressor than Winter has.
Good point G33k. A very excellent reason.
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Except they're not actually balanced. The entirety of summer is balanced with the fraction of winter that isn't on guard duty.
Which kind of messes up the point of SK. Like, OK, let's say Aurora succeeds in unbalancing the courts by transferring some of summer's power to winter. Can't Mab just redeploy an equivalent measure of winter's forces to gate duty, and make things that little bit harder for the outsiders?
They are balanced, you just miss factor 3, the Outsiders, in the balance.
If Mab deploys extra power to contain the Outsiders, nice, but she can just draw them off again at a later point and kick Summer. The balance is NOT, Mab=Titania. The balance is, Mab cannot defeat Titania without forfeiting reality. If Mab gains the power of Summer's Knight, she can defeat Titania and live to celebrate her victory. The very possibility unbalances everything.
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Jim has hinted that adding Summer power to Winter would not have had the effect of making Winter stronger. More of an explosion effect.
Cf.sapph42: Could the Summer Court bestow the Mantle of the Summer Knight (is that capitalization all correct?) on someone who held the Mantle of the Winter Knight? What would holding both Mantles do to a person? If it is possible, and is not fatal, how would such a person resolve their conflicting obligations? Would they still have obligations if they lived, but no longer held the Mantle(s)?
Jim: 2) That’s a fascinating question. I think they /could/, but it would do horrible things to the head of the person who got it. Reuniting two things that were meant to be divided just cannot be good for the person standing around when it happens… (Jim has also compared this to a matter/anti-matter reaction. #203)
The parenthetical is a dead link to the WoJ I was thinking about.
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Jim has hinted that adding Summer power to Winter would not have had the effect of making Winter stronger. More of an explosion effect.
Cf.The parenthetical is a dead link to the WoJ I was thinking about.
I think there was also some text in the book, to the effect that the Queens DID have a solution, were it to happen -- the "blow things all to flinders, and let them settle out."
I think the implication is a century or three (or more) of ice-age or tropical greenhouse effect, and no Knights (because that level of things has been blown to flinders), and then things settle out, with the Knight Mantles sort of "returning home" to their original places (likely the Mothers rather than the Queens)... But this is just my guess.