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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Sanctaphrax on January 18, 2014, 09:05:06 PM

Title: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 18, 2014, 09:05:06 PM

Recent discussion in the Worm thread reminded me of an old project of mine: writing stats for THE GODS THEMSELVES!

Yes, the capslock is necessary.

Anyway, I think this is a good time to actually finish that project. Once I'm done, I'd like to have a God Template that can be used in a similar way to the Templates in YS...not that I actually expect anyone to play a god. As a proof-of-concept, I'll try using that Template to write up Mab and Mother Winter.

Way I see it, there are seven main things a god needs.

1. The ability to create miracles within their domain. Which are basically spells, but easier and bigger and better.
2. The ability to crush any mortal like a bug.
3. Nearly-total immunity to attack from mortals.
4. Awareness of and knowledge of cosmic stuff.
5. Attunement to their domain, possibly including Intellectus.
6. The ability to empower mortals.
7. A really high power level in general.

Think I'm missing anything?

Next post will begin the actual work.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: S1C0 on January 18, 2014, 10:12:42 PM

perhaps a dnd style alignment aspect and perhaps mantels of power as an intangible item of power... also symbols of power like Zeus's lightning bolt for more in-depth creation have mutiple mantels so it can have more symbols and power

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 19, 2014, 02:41:27 AM

Before I get into the hard stuff, there are three homebrew Powers that I want to use here: Undying, Immunity, and All Creatures Are Equal Before Me.

These three powers together do a good job of covering point 2 and 3, as long as the god in question has a decent attack.

(click to show/hide)

UNDYING [-0]
Description: You do not die when you are killed.
Skills Affected: Endurance
Effects:
Deathless. Unless utterly destroyed or killed by special means, you can never suffer a fatal wound. No "death" result is ever permanent unless special means are used (as determined by your creature type).

ALL CREATURES ARE EQUAL BEFORE ME [-8]
Description: It doesn't matter how tough they are. You can kill them.
Skills Affected: Fists, Weapons, Guns, Might.
Effects:
All Creatures Are Equal Before Me. Your physical attacks ignore all armour and all defensive Powers.
(And Objects) [-1]. When defending against your attacks, all objects have an effective quality rating of 0. Similarly, the difficulty for you to break through any given object or substance is 0.

IMMUNITY [-varies]
Description: You are completely immune to some form of harm.
Note: The cost examples provided here are intended for the hypothetical average game. In unusual games, they may need to be adjusted. For example, the costs here assume that effects like All Creatures Are Equal Before God are supremely uncommon; if this is not true in your game, the more powerful variants of this Power might well be overcosted. Alternately, an an anti-anti-defensive-Power Power could be added to the game. Said more powerful variants are likely inappropriate for some games and should be used with caution. In some rare cases, it may qualify as a Compel when this Power does not apply. Effects that reduce Toughness by one level reduce Immunity to Mythic Toughness.
Skills Affected: Many.
Effects:
Immunity. Pick a type of stress. You are immune to that type of stress. This may prevent certain maneuvers and blocks from functioning, at the GM's discretion.
Variable Cost. The cost of this Power depends on the type of stress selected.

• Completely trivial immunities, like drunk-ness or bad smells, are free.
• Very narrow ones, like monkey wrenches or seduction attempts or falling damage, cost 1 Refresh.
  
• Narrow immunities like poison or acid or magically induced despair cost 2 Refresh.
• Immunity to a single common thing, like metal weaponry or explosions or fear, costs 3 Refresh.
• Immunity to a broad group of things, like the physical attacks of the undead or mental magic, costs 4 Refresh.
• Immunity to an extremely broad group of things, like all magic (including indirect spells) or all unarmed attacks, costs 5 Refresh.
• Immunity to all mental stress with a sizeable weakness, like the attacks of women, costs 6 Refresh.
• Immunity to all physical stress with a sizeable weakness, like cold iron, costs 7 Refresh.
• Immunity to all mental stress with a small loophole, like the attacks of genderless beings, costs 8 Refresh.
• Immunity to all mental stress costs 10 Refresh.
• Immunity to all physical stress with a moderate weakness, like holy stuff, costs 12 Refresh.
• Immunity to all physical stress with a small weakness, like a single legendary weapon, costs 17 Refresh.
• Immunity to all physical stress costs 22 Refresh.
• Immunity to all mental and physical stress costs 30 Refresh.

The issue here is that when two gods fight, the battle will be over way too quickly. One attack and the defending god will be vapour.

Here's my solution:

DIVINE TOUGHNESS [-2/level]
Description: You're ridiculously, insanely, preposterously hard to hurt. Even a god would have trouble wounding you.
Musts: You must have Immunity to all forms of physical and mental attack to take this Power.
Note: You may purchase this Power any number of times. Its effects stack.
Skills Affected: Endurance, Conviction.
Effects:
Divine Toughness. Add 1 point of armour and 2 stress boxes to your physical and mental stress tracks. This protection cannot be negated by anything.

That just about covers points 2 and 3. For point 1, which lets you manipulate reality with miraculous power, I'm thinking something like...

MIRACLES [-12?]
Description: You have the power to rewrite reality through sheer divine power.
Musts: You must define a divine domain for yourself in order to take this Power. You should have an Aspect that is related to this domain, and your domain should be about as broad as the thematics of a Sponsored Magic type.
Skills Affected: Conviction.
Effects:
Minor Miracles. You may cast any evocation or thaumaturgy spell that fits into your divine domain with evocation's speed and methods. Your power and control are equal to your Conviction, and all spells are treated as Rotes for you. It costs no stress for you to cast up to your base power, and you may cast beyond it at the standard cost of 1 stress per shift.
Major Miracles. You may cast rituals that fit into your divine domain. Once you've gathered enough complexity for a given spell, you need only take a single action to cast it in its entirety. You may gather complexity without having a spell in mind to devote it to, and may store shifts of complexity within yourself to devote to rituals as you please. Each day, you automatically gain stored shifts equal to your Conviction.

MIRACULOUS POWER [-2]
Description: You've got a bit of extra power to boost your miracles with.
Musts: You must have the Miracles power in order to take this one.
Note: You may purchase this Power as many times as you like. Its effects stack.
Skills Affected: Conviction.
Effects:
Miraculous Power. Add one to your Conviction skill when using it with Miracles.

Those costs aren't based on anything solid, but these aren't PC powers so that's not a huge deal.

So that's 1-3 more or less covered. I think. Feedback welcome.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 19, 2014, 02:47:07 AM

Quote from: S1C0 on January 18, 2014, 10:12:42 PM

perhaps a dnd style alignment aspect and perhaps mantels of power as an intangible item of power... also symbols of power like Zeus's lightning bolt for more in-depth creation have mutiple mantels so it can have more symbols and power

I don't like D&D Alignment at all, so I won't be using it.

Mantles and items should have some representation, though. Not sure whether Limitation is enough.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Silverblaze on January 19, 2014, 02:51:59 AM

Gods need one other thing.

Believers.

Metaphysically speaking gods and tulpas are created from the thought and belief of those who see need for them, fear them, revere them, and/or worship them.

This should be tied into their power level.

Why don't Outsiders need believers? 

1) Maybe they have believers.
2) Maybe they are so foreign to us that is yet another rule they break.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 19, 2014, 05:11:34 AM

Yeah, number of worshippers should matter...but stuff that determines how powerful you are is normally handled on a level "above" the character sheet. You can't have a Power that affects how many milestones you get.

I'm thinking that I should create a custom power level for gods. One with a skill cap of Legendary and a skill floor of Good. Maybe it could involve some kind of worship/sacrifice-based power fluctuation.

Any idea on how that could work?

That aside, after some thought I've decided to combine requirements 4-6 in a single Power. They're all connected the common theme of being attuned to a specific aspect of the universe, after all.

DIVINE DOMAIN [-7]
Description: You are closely attuned to some aspect of reality. You are a part of it and it is a part of you.
Musts: You must define a divine domain for yourself in order to take this Power. You should have an Aspect that is related to this domain, and your domain should be about as broad as the thematics of a Sponsored Magic type.
Skills Affected: Alertness, Investigation, Lore, Scholarship.
Effects:
Domain Empowerment. You may draw power from your domain. This allows you to take Sponsor Debt to yourself, which is paid off through ordinary Compels. You may use this Sponsor Debt only to invoke your own Aspects and to fuel your own Stunts and Powers.
Domain Awareness. You may use your Alertness and Investigation skills to perceive events in and changes to your domain. This awareness spans the entire world even if you're in the Nevernever. No matter what your domain is, you can vaguely sense the actions of other gods and Outsiders; being of such importance affect everything that exists.
Domain Knowledge. You may use your knowledge skills to know any conceivable fact about your domain, even if you have no way of knowing it. You never need a library for questions related to your domain and you may add 4 to any skill you use to know about your domain. No matter what your domain is, the deep questions of universal metaphysics are related to it.
Source Of Magic. There exists a Sponsored Magic for your domain. You may take a point of Sponsor Debt or spend a Fate Point whenever a character takes a point of Sponsor Debt to your domain; if you do, transfer that debt to yourself. This lets you use it to Compel the character who took it however you like.
Sponsor To Mortals. By spending a Fate Point or taking a point of Sponsor Debt, you may transform a willing mortal into your Emissary. This gives them Marked By Power, the Sponsored Magic of your Domain, and whatever other Powers the GM deems appropriate. They must pay for them normally. A character thus Sponsored is metaphysically linked to you, and this will sometimes have serious ramifications.
Intellectus [-3]. You automatically succeed at all knowledge rolls and all active sensory rolls related to your domain. As soon as you think the question, the answer appears in your mind.
Extra Benefits [-1]. You gain whatever non-spellcasting-related benefits the Sponsored Magic of your domain provides. At the GM's discretion, this ability may occasionally cost 2 Refresh if those benefits are exceptionally potent.

Eh...not thrilled with this one. But it'll do.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 19, 2014, 05:49:38 AM

Alright, here's the first draft of the final product:

Power Levels:

(click to show/hide)

Minor God (Skill cap Legendary, skill floor Good, 25 skill points, 65 Refresh.)

This level is appropriate for a young god or one with few worshippers. Like Cowl, post-Darkhallow.

Major God (Skill cap Legendary, skill floor Good, 35 skill points, 100 Refresh.)

This level is appropriate for a major god with an established power-base. Like Titania.

Elder God (Skill cap Legendary, skill floor Great, 30 skill points, 150 Refresh.)

This level is appropriate for an ancient god who's deeply connected to reality's roots. Like Mother Winter.

Template:

(click to show/hide)

GOD

Gods are gods. Pretty self-explanatory.

Musts:

Immunity (Total) [-30]
All Creatures (And Objects) Are Equal Before Me [-9]
Miracles [-12]
Divine Domain [-7]
Undying [-0]
Marked By Power [-1]
No Metabolism [-1]
Demesne [-1]
Ghost Speaker [-1]
Aura Of Influence [-0]
Dual Nature [-0]

Options: Gods can have pretty much any conceivable Power, but Divine Toughness and Miraculous Power are exceptionally common. So are upgrades for Divine Domain. Some gods have magical weapons which are best represented with Item Limitation, while others have enormous physical powers.

Important Skills: Conviction.

Minimum Refresh Cost: -52

Not really confident in this. But it'll do for a first draft.

By the way, what do people think of the possibility of positive-Refresh gods? I wanted to keep the door open so I set the Refresh levels high, but in retrospect that may have been a bad idea.

I'm thinking I might want stronger representation for the power you get from ruling a kingdom like Winter, incidentally. Some kind of minion Power might be suitable...

Anyway, if you have anything to say I want to hear it. Even if you have nothing to say I want to hear it. I've pretty much used up my ideas, I'll need help replenishing them if I want to make this stuff any better.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on January 19, 2014, 07:17:41 AM

That's cool stuff.

But honestly, I don't think you really need all these new Powers. (Sorry.)

I don't like All Creatures Are Equal Before Me and don't think something like that is even remotely a "standard" power for DV gods. The Swords are very special. So I don't think, therefore, Divine Toughness is really needed.

I believe there's already a "do all thaumaturgy as evothaum" custom power somewhere (I might even have written it... I honestly don't remember). I know there's a "one field as evothaum without Sponsored Magic" power. (EDIT: So I'm not really sure Miracles is needed either.)

I have a pretty full writeup of Lea somewhere, and I've been doing some rough working out in my head for how I think Mab would look, and I don't think she really needs any new powers except a "Domain" power... and your Divine Domain looks good for that.

(There are broader questions about gods' power in the NN vs mortal world and how that should be modeled in the game, but those issues aren't unique to gods -- same would apply to any 'ectoplasm body' demon/spirit/summoned creature, though for slightly different reasons.)

---

I think some of that is a difference in our approaches to the rules though. I prefer to use canon powers when at all possible, and use custom powers only for genuinely new effects

(click to show/hide)

(except for Demonic Co-Pilot which is just bad ... although Feeding Dependency may be joining that list).

Thus I prefer The Catch to Limitation, I prefer to use Physical Immunity costing rather than Immunity costing for most situations, etc.

---
DOUBLE EDIT: I also think that gods in the Dresdenverse tend to retain their "normal" weaknesses, at least if they come from a "type" that has them (Mab flinches from iron, and Jim has said that an ordinary mortal at least theoretically could kill her under the right conditions -- a chance e.g. the Erlking wouldn't). There's also a WoJ that when those cosmic beings enter the mortal world, they become somewhat vulnerable themselves.  So immunity to mortals is I think too much -- it's just that their power and awareness are so great that it's really unlikely for anybody without comparable power to get into a position to harm them.

(Although Mother Winter apparently has iron teeth, so weaknesses may fall away at the really high power levels. Though I think that is more likely evidence she isn't really a fae, or at least not mostly -- maybe her fae mantle is only secondary to being Death or half of Gaia or whatever, pick your favored theory.)

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on January 19, 2014, 07:47:09 AM

Quote from: Silverblaze on January 19, 2014, 02:51:59 AM

Gods need one other thing.

Believers.

Metaphysically speaking gods and tulpas are created from the thought and belief of those who see need for them, fear them, revere them, and/or worship them.

I don't think this is true in the Dresdenverse (though it is in many other fantasy works). NN entities (not just gods, the Fae and such also) need mortal knowledge to allow them to act in the mortal world (I don't think it necessarily affects their 'power' in the NN - just their 'leverage' on Earth) ... but knowledge in them as fictional stories seems to be enough (Grimm's Fairy Tales, and Bob's comment in Backup about D&D giving Tiamat that connection).

But Odin doesn't seem to have faded away during the time he was worshipped by essentially no one (between the Christianization of Scandinavia and the rise of modern neopaganism). Knowledge of him as a myth seems to have kept him linked -- though he also has at least one other mantle, so that may be involved too.

I think 'purpose' is more important for god-like entities retaining their power. Odin says in CD that he lost a lot of his when the Jotuns retreated and the Norse gods scattered... not because people stopped worshiping him.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: potestas on January 19, 2014, 03:54:51 PM

with cold days I am almost convinced that the power of the Gods is nothing more then mantles and how many they have acquired and strengthen over the years. Collect enough mantles and you become immortal. The winter knight isn't immortal but what if he had several other mantles or powerful enough ones. maybe instead of created god templates create mantle templates

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: potestas on January 19, 2014, 03:56:58 PM

and remember a bullet to the head will kill a God on Halloween

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: S1C0 on January 19, 2014, 04:41:16 PM

At potestas

Spoiler much?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on January 19, 2014, 05:31:44 PM

Quote from: S1C0 on January 19, 2014, 04:41:16 PM

At potestas

Spoiler much?

Cold Days has been out for over a year and is in paperback. Those are the dividing lines for "spoilers". So, he's good.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: potestas on January 19, 2014, 06:05:21 PM

Quote from: S1C0 on January 19, 2014, 04:41:16 PM

At potestas

Spoiler much?

hey I didn't say who got the bullet to the head

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: S1C0 on January 19, 2014, 10:12:52 PM

True just saying.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: potestas on January 20, 2014, 02:14:49 AM

Quote from: Silverblaze on January 19, 2014, 02:51:59 AM

Gods need one other thing.

Believers.

Metaphysically speaking gods and tulpas are created from the thought and belief of those who see need for them, fear them, revere them, and/or worship them.

This should be tied into their power level.

Why don't Outsiders need believers? 

1) Maybe they have believers.
2) Maybe they are so foreign to us that is yet another rule they break.

I've never seen gods as needing worshippers...humans worship them because they are gods. They may be able to focus that belief into more power the same way a wizard focuses his belief into his magic. The fact they still exist proves that despite the fact no one worships them. Don't look at the gods as people with power, but as eternal concepts. the power of the god resides in his concept/ Ares isn't the god of war, he is war. Where there is war there is Ares. No one really likes war, so no one really worshipped Ares. They feared him made offerings to ward him off. Prayed to other gods to make him go away.

We trivialize the gods by claiming they only exist because we believe in them. (in essence we make ourselves god by doing this) That is not the way people who believed in the gods thought, that is 20th century man making a mockery of the belief of the ancients because the gods just cant exist. In the Dresden world the ancients are laughing at 2oth century man.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 20, 2014, 03:16:13 AM

I don't think worship is the only way it can happen, but I'm pretty sure the gods draw their power from mortals. Almost everything else in the Dresdenverse does.

That's what the fey have that stone table for.

Quote from: vultur on January 19, 2014, 07:17:41 AM

That's cool stuff.

But honestly, I don't think you really need all these new Powers. (Sorry.)

...

I think some of that is a difference in our approaches to the rules though. I prefer to use canon powers when at all possible, and use custom powers only for genuinely new effects

(click to show/hide)

(except for Demonic Co-Pilot which is just bad ... although Feeding Dependency may be joining that list).

Thus I prefer The Catch to Limitation, I prefer to use Physical Immunity costing rather than Immunity costing for most situations, etc.

You don't need to apologize.

And yes, it's a difference of approach. I'm pickier than you are, when it comes to balance. And I suspect that you're less enthusiastic/comfortable about replacing rules than I am.

(You should add Feeding Dependency to that list.)

Quote from: vultur on January 19, 2014, 07:17:41 AM

I have a pretty full writeup of Lea somewhere, and I've been doing some rough working out in my head for how I think Mab would look, and I don't think she really needs any new powers except a "Domain" power... and your Divine Domain looks good for that.

I vaguely recall liking your take on Lea. But I think Mab definitely needs new powers. Here's why:

Mab is capable of defeating the entire White Council single-handedly. And there is no level of Toughness that will let you tank hundreds of death curses or thousands of evocation attacks. Legendary skills and Mythic powers across the board would be laughably insufficient if the whole Senior Council started blasting you.

So she needs a custom Power. Either Immunity or some new level of Toughness. I went for Immunity because I didn't want to deal with the massive numerical inflation that her Toughness would require. Plus I already had Immunity written.

But that would make her immune to other gods. So she needs some way of being harmed by them. I'd rather have the methods of harming her be on the character sheets of opposing gods rather than on her character sheet, so I went with ACaEBM.

That method also has the advantage of making gods more effective against mortals...I think gods should be able to casually kill mortals no matter how tough they are, and I'd rather not raise their numbers to the twenties to represent that. Plus I already had ACaEBM written.

Divine Toughness follows in a fairly obvious fashion.

There are other ways to do this (for example, I could give her Immunity to everything except the attacks of gods and Mythic+ Toughness/Recovery) but I like this method best.

As for Miracles, well...it's basically just spellcasting without the drawbacks. No item dependence, no mental stress, no need for three different skills. Spellcasting has a lot of trappings built-in, and most of them aren't appropriate for gods. Removing them one by one would have been a hassle, and this seemed easier.

(The skill number is the most important issue, by the way. I don't want every god to have the same three apex skills.)

Sound reasonable? If not, what do you think I should change?

And just out of curiosity, what's your beef with ACaEBM?

Quote from: vultur on January 19, 2014, 07:17:41 AM

(There are broader questions about gods' power in the NN vs mortal world and how that should be modeled in the game, but those issues aren't unique to gods -- same would apply to any 'ectoplasm body' demon/spirit/summoned creature, though for slightly different reasons.)

Yeah, the Nevernever in general is confusing like that.

Quote from: vultur on January 19, 2014, 07:17:41 AM

DOUBLE EDIT: I also think that gods in the Dresdenverse tend to retain their "normal" weaknesses, at least if they come from a "type" that has them (Mab flinches from iron, and Jim has said that an ordinary mortal at least theoretically could kill her under the right conditions -- a chance e.g. the Erlking wouldn't). There's also a WoJ that when those cosmic beings enter the mortal world, they become somewhat vulnerable themselves.  So immunity to mortals is I think too much -- it's just that their power and awareness are so great that it's really unlikely for anybody without comparable power to get into a position to harm them.

I'd rather handle that with Aspects.

I mean, hypothetically a mortal could wound Mab with iron. But in practice, attacking her is pointless because she'll defend against everything casually. Unless there's something plot-ish going on.

So when her weaknesses come into play, she can just get Compelled.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on January 20, 2014, 04:47:01 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 20, 2014, 03:16:13 AM

I don't think worship is the only way it can happen, but I'm pretty sure the gods draw their power from mortals. Almost everything else in the Dresdenverse does.

In a very broad sense, there is certainly evidence that the Nevernever and magic in general derive from or are powered by mortal life/emotions/etc. (Though possibly not just humans - the description of the Faerie Queens' power as "older than time" is probably poetic but still seems to me to imply pre-human origins. They may draw power from mortal "life" in general.)

But I don't think they actually need worship. And even if mortals completely forget them, I think they remain, unharmed, in the Nevernever... they just can't enter or affect the mortal world. If the Earth or terrestrial life was completely destroyed, though, they might fade.

Quote

Mab is capable of defeating the entire White Council single-handedly. And there is no level of Toughness that will let you tank hundreds of death curses or thousands of evocation attacks.

If Mab faced the White Council across a battlefield... her defenses would be irrelevant, because she would blast them to ice shards before they got to act (wizards don't get Mythic or even Supernatural Speed).

However...

Quote

So she needs a custom Power. Either Immunity or some new level of Toughness. I went for Immunity because I didn't want to deal with the massive numerical inflation that her Toughness would require. Plus I already had Immunity written.

But that would make her immune to other gods. So she needs some way of being harmed by them.

I'd just make that part of her Catch.

She'd then have magical defenses to make the Merlin look like a chump... and only then Mythic Toughness and Recovery, as the final layer.

Quote

That method also has the advantage of making gods more effective against mortals...I think gods should be able to casually kill mortals no matter how tough they are, and I'd rather not raise their numbers to the twenties to represent that.

Depends on where you put the top end of "mortal" for these purposes ... and what you're defining as gods. I can totally see Murphy dodging a blow from Odin or the Erlking, or current-Harry blocking one... though they couldn't keep it up for very long at all.

Quote

There are other ways to do this (for example, I could give her Immunity to everything except the attacks of gods and Mythic+ Toughness/Recovery)

That's more or less what I'd do. Well, Catch: "iron, Summer Magic and trappings of Summer, the Winter Knight, and beings of comparable or better power". Something like that.

Quote

(The skill number is the most important issue, by the way. I don't want every god to have the same three apex skills.)

Hmmm. Conviction and Discipline are more or less 'force of will' kind of things. I think most beings who are really powerful in the spirit world should have really high ranks in those skills. And any supernatural-world-only being that old should probably have massive Lore. So... I actually think it kind of fits.

Maybe not the apex skills, anyway, they can make up for that with massive Refinement since they have negative refresh anyway.

(In any case, gods will probably have effectively infinite Sponsor Debt availability since they're probably just compelling based on their own natures... and they can't refuse compels anyway, having negative refresh... and there refresh ill be so negative they'd never realistically get fate points for accepted non-debt compels.)

Quote

And just out of curiosity, what's your beef with ACaEBM?

Mostly that I don't think it should be generally available even at the Mab-level, the Swords are supposed to be something special IMO even up to that level.

It would be a perfect Power for Mother Winter, though.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 20, 2014, 05:41:59 AM

Quote from: vultur on January 20, 2014, 04:47:01 AM

If Mab faced the White Council across a battlefield... her defenses would be irrelevant, because she would blast them to ice shards before they got to act (wizards don't get Mythic or even Supernatural Speed).

They could get Speed through magic, they have death curses, and she'd likely have trouble wiping out that many wizards in one go.

Rocket launcher tag is best avoided.

Quote from: vultur on January 20, 2014, 04:47:01 AM

I'd just make that part of her Catch.

She'd then have magical defenses to make the Merlin look like a chump... and only then Mythic Toughness and Recovery, as the final layer.

...

That's more or less what I'd do. Well, Catch: "iron, Summer Magic and trappings of Summer, the Winter Knight, and beings of comparable or better power". Something like that.

Whoa, no. That's way too broad. She'd never actually get to use her immunity if bypassing it was as trivial as picking up a nail.

The general approach is defensible, though. I decided against it because

a) using Mythics doesn't provide enough scalability...if Mab has Mythics, what does her mom have?
b) If a being has enough power to punch through Immunity, that power should be on their character sheet somewhere (for both flavour and balance reasons).
c) I don't think mortals with Toughness or Immunity should get very far against gods.

Anyway, I'm not completely married to the approach I'm going with. So feel free to try and convince me. What you've posted so far hasn't brought me around, but with further development and support maybe it could.

And if I don't change the basic approach, are there any tweaks you'd recommend?

Quote from: vultur on January 20, 2014, 04:47:01 AM

Hmmm. Conviction and Discipline are more or less 'force of will' kind of things. I think most beings who are really powerful in the spirit world should have really high ranks in those skills. And any supernatural-world-only being that old should probably have massive Lore. So... I actually think it kind of fits.

Not really. Plenty of gods have lousy Discipline, judging by their actions. And I think the "massive divine Lore" is mostly covered by Divine Domain.

The main reason, though, is to keep things from getting same-y. If Thoth has Legendary Lore and Zeus does too, it kind of defeats the purpose of giving different gods different character sheets.

Having one skill (Conviction) that's always up near the cap is enough.

Quote from: vultur on January 20, 2014, 04:47:01 AM

Mostly that I don't think it should be generally available even at the Mab-level, the Swords are supposed to be something special IMO even up to that level.

It would be a perfect Power for Mother Winter, though.

So it's not so much the Power that bothers you, as the idea of giving it out to a large number of beings?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on January 20, 2014, 06:25:56 AM

Yeah. Zeus's Discipline would start at Poor (-1) and only get worse from there.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: g33k on January 21, 2014, 06:44:26 PM

RE "Stats for Gods" --

I am against it!  The old gaming maxim is true:  if you Stat it, the players will kill it.

Even so... it's an irresistably fun exercise!   ;D

===

RE "Mab vs. the White Council" --  :o

1. This is a "Plot-Device 'A' vs Plot-Device 'B'" situation.  The "winner" is clearly... well, whoever the GM wants the winner to be!    ;)

2. I think the crack y'all are smokin' done got contaminated with peyote or sumthin... What EVER gave you the idea that Mab would face the Council in anything like a "battlefield" situation???!?  Mab-level entities are the creatures from whom wizards are copying (in a very inferior fashion!) the "subtle and quick to anger" schtick... especially SUBTLE.  Why on God's Green^H^H^H^H^HWhite Earth would Mab ever find herself facing "the entire White Council" in open battle?!

3. I probably come down on the "Mab Wins" side of things, in the "not gonna happen" case of an "open battle:"  Mab has already suborned a bunch of the WCouncil, who backstab the important ones she COULDN'T suborn, while Mab drops a zero-visibility blizzard on the poor humans, Veils and Glamours the shit out of everything, unleashes a bunch of Malks and and then turns anyone left alive into a wizardcicle. ::)

I mean, c'mon:  she's Mab.  She won't do "open battle" unless it's some Summer-vs-Winter event where the nature of reality demands the "open battle" format.

My .02 on THAT.


@narphoenix RE "Zeus's Discipline" -- ROFLMAO!

@Sanctaphrax:

"She'd never actually get to use her immunity if bypassing it was as trivial as picking up a nail."
Picking up a nail is trivial.  Getting the nail in your hand anywhere dangerous to Mab is NOT trivial.

"using Mythics doesn't provide enough scalability...if Mab has Mythics, what does her mom have?"
I rather think that the Mothers make their daughters look like simpletons; they play the deep game so deeply, their contingencies have contingencies so many ply thick, they interlace so many disparate elements, they cast their webs so widely, that the Mothers' plans are literally the fabric of daily life for most mortal wizards (and other powers, e.g. nobles of the Vampire Courts, etc), who live their whole lives without ever noting or knowing that they've been threads in the Mothers' tapestries.  What do they need Speed or Toughness or any other combat-relevant stat for, whether Mythic or something else?  I mean, I don't doubt they ARE physically daunting in combat, if they wanted to fight, but... why?

RE ACaEBM:
Have we seen anything in the DF stories showing the Sword-like ability put into the rules as "ACaE..."?  Off the top of my head, I'm not recalling any.  I know it has become something done in the DFRPG... but I'm not at all clear that this is "correct".   This maybe should be something reserved to the Swords alone...  Entirely willing to be shown the story where I'm wrong!
 

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 21, 2014, 11:05:38 PM

Quote from: g33k on January 21, 2014, 06:44:26 PM

RE "Stats for Gods" --

I am against it!  The old gaming maxim is true:  if you Stat it, the players will kill it.

Rubbish. I've statted loads of characters that my players haven't killed.

Sometimes because they never tried, sometimes because they never could.

Quote from: g33k on January 21, 2014, 06:44:26 PM

RE "Mab vs. the White Council" --  :o

1. This is a "Plot-Device 'A' vs Plot-Device 'B'" situation.  The "winner" is clearly... well, whoever the GM wants the winner to be!    ;)

2. I think the crack y'all are smokin' done got contaminated with peyote or sumthin... What EVER gave you the idea that Mab would face the Council in anything like a "battlefield" situation???!?  Mab-level entities are the creatures from whom wizards are copying (in a very inferior fashion!) the "subtle and quick to anger" schtick... especially SUBTLE.  Why on God's Green^H^H^H^H^HWhite Earth would Mab ever find herself facing "the entire White Council" in open battle?!

3. I probably come down on the "Mab Wins" side of things, in the "not gonna happen" case of an "open battle:"  Mab has already suborned a bunch of the WCouncil, who backstab the important ones she COULDN'T suborn, while Mab drops a zero-visibility blizzard on the poor humans, Veils and Glamours the shit out of everything, unleashes a bunch of Malks and and then turns anyone left alive into a wizardcicle. ::)

I mean, c'mon:  she's Mab.  She won't do "open battle" unless it's some Summer-vs-Winter event where the nature of reality demands the "open battle" format.

My .02 on THAT.

Doesn't matter.

The statements from the books says that Mab-level entities could overwhelm the Council with sheer power. So their stats, in order to be accurate, must allow them to win such a fight without clever planning.

Quote from: g33k on January 21, 2014, 06:44:26 PM

"She'd never actually get to use her immunity if bypassing it was as trivial as picking up a nail."
Picking up a nail is trivial.  Getting the nail in your hand anywhere dangerous to Mab is NOT trivial.

Yes, exactly. That's my point.

Quote from: g33k on January 21, 2014, 06:44:26 PM

"using Mythics doesn't provide enough scalability...if Mab has Mythics, what does her mom have?"
I rather think that the Mothers make their daughters look like simpletons; they play the deep game so deeply, their contingencies have contingencies so many ply thick, they interlace so many disparate elements, they cast their webs so widely, that the Mothers' plans are literally the fabric of daily life for most mortal wizards (and other powers, e.g. nobles of the Vampire Courts, etc), who live their whole lives without ever noting or knowing that they've been threads in the Mothers' tapestries.  What do they need Speed or Toughness or any other combat-relevant stat for, whether Mythic or something else?  I mean, I don't doubt they ARE physically daunting in combat, if they wanted to fight, but... why?

Because they fight. We see a brief battle between Harry and Mother Winter in Cold Days. (Harry wins).

It's not much a fight and she's not trying that hard, but it's a conflict and if you want to run that kind of thing you need rules.

Of course, if you interpret the Mothers primarily as schemers then you might need scheming mechanics. But I don't really see them that way.

Quote from: g33k on January 21, 2014, 06:44:26 PM

RE ACaEBM:
Have we seen anything in the DF stories showing the Sword-like ability put into the rules as "ACaE..."?  Off the top of my head, I'm not recalling any.  I know it has become something done in the DFRPG... but I'm not at all clear that this is "correct".   This maybe should be something reserved to the Swords alone...  Entirely willing to be shown the story where I'm wrong!

I don't think ACaEBG shows up in the stories at all. I don't think the Swords even have it, given their performance against Nicodemus.

Though...Mouse scares Nick. So he (and the rest of his species) might have it. OW gives them Sacred Guardian instead, but that Power is terrible.

PS: Originally ACeBM was devised to represent the abilities of the Siberian from the Worm-verse. Which isn't very DFRPG-ish at all.
PPS: It just occurred to me that the Immunity/Divine Toughness model has a side benefit: it prevents a Knight of the Cross from casually maiming Mab, while letting them hurt her.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on January 22, 2014, 07:57:33 AM

The Swords -- remember, Michael killed a Dragon, probably a Mab-level entity. And they do remove supernatural protections and level the playing field. I think ACAEBG is a decent representation... though, in Changes we actually see them impairing the Red Court army facing Murphy, so really they should lower things like Strength and Speed powers too...

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 20, 2014, 05:41:59 AM

They could get Speed through magic, they have death curses, and she'd likely have trouble wiping out that many wizards in one go.

Rocket launcher tag is best avoided.

I think it's sort of inevitable at this power level, though.  Mab probably IS able to destroy armies near-instantly if she really throws down, given the WoJs about Arctis Tor in PG and how a fight with her against the Erlking, Wild Hunt, Denarians, etc. would go.

Death curses are going to just bounce off her immunity anyway.

Sponsor debt is basically free (or, at least, fairly trivial) for Mab, so, yeah, she can do a 10 zone control 20 power 20 attack spell, or something ridiculous like that, if she really needs to. How many times is she going to have to fight the whole White Council anyway?

Quote

Whoa, no. That's way too broad. She'd never actually get to use her immunity if bypassing it was as trivial as picking up a nail.

Yep. Being Fae sucks sometimes.

How else could Murphy or even Butters theoretically be able to kill her (very low chances, but not zero, per WoJ)?

And I actually think what I said above is too broad. I'd have to give it more thought.

Quote

a) using Mythics doesn't provide enough scalability...if Mab has Mythics, what does her mom have?

That IS a good point. Though I am still skeptical that the Mothers are really meaningfully stattable. They mostly don't do anything, but theoretically have cosmic power on a level that is just insane.

I am of course very interested in seeing what you come up with for Mother Winter, though...

Quote

c) I don't think mortals with Toughness or Immunity should get very far against gods.

Well, they won't anyway. Mab can probably overpower Toughness just by dealing way more damage.

Immunity, yeah, if she's facing Nic Mab may actually have to do something other than just throw lots of power at him. (That fight still lasts less than a second, because she can still flatten him to the ground with a completely unbeatable Block, even if she doesn't know his weakness, which she probably does.)

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 22, 2014, 08:46:00 AM

Quote from: vultur on January 22, 2014, 07:57:33 AM

The Swords -- remember, Michael killed a Dragon, probably a Mab-level entity. And they do remove supernatural protections and level the playing field. I think ACAEBG is a decent representation... though, in Changes we actually see them impairing the Red Court army facing Murphy, so really they should lower things like Strength and Speed powers too...

The swords in the novels don't work the same as the swords in the game. C'est la vie.

Anyway, I think the Swords should be able to kill gods. But it shouldn't be easy. And if Mab has no toughness against the Sword...assuming a base attack skill of Fantastic and a weapon rating of 5 against a Legendary defence skill, one fate point is enough to put a consequence on Mab.

Quote from: vultur on January 22, 2014, 07:57:33 AM

I think it's sort of inevitable at this power level, though.

No way. We decide the numbers gods get for attack and defence, we decide whether their fights are rocket-tag-y. 

Quote from: vultur on January 22, 2014, 07:57:33 AM

Death curses are going to just bounce off her immunity anyway.

The way I wrote it, yeah. The way you wrote it, not at all.

The way you wrote it, Mab could be killed by the death curses of like three random Wardens. And Eldest Gruff could one-shot her.

Quote from: vultur on January 22, 2014, 07:57:33 AM

Sponsor debt is basically free (or, at least, fairly trivial) for Mab, so, yeah, she can do a 10 zone control 20 power 20 attack spell, or something ridiculous like that, if she really needs to.

I don't know whether such an attack would suffice.

Quote from: vultur on January 22, 2014, 07:57:33 AM

How else could Murphy or even Butters theoretically be able to kill her (very low chances, but not zero, per WoJ)?

Compels. The all purpose tool for situations where something ridiculous has to happen because the plot demands it.

Quote from: vultur on January 22, 2014, 07:57:33 AM

That IS a good point. Though I am still skeptical that the Mothers are really meaningfully stattable. They mostly don't do anything, but theoretically have cosmic power on a level that is just insane.

I am of course very interested in seeing what you come up with for Mother Winter, though...

Mostly, I plan to put a lot of points into Miraculous Power and Divine Toughness. They're uncapped for a reason. And since Miracles works off of spellcasting, it covers massive cosmic power pretty well...200 shift rituals are not so difficult, if you have a base miraculous power of 20.

Plus they'll have Intellectus.

The interesting bits will be the social skills, I think. Socially, gods are not so ridiculously far above mortals. I'm thinking I'll give Mother Winter a bunch of Intimidation.

Quote from: vultur on January 22, 2014, 07:57:33 AM

Well, they won't anyway. Mab can probably overpower Toughness just by dealing way more damage.

Not without heavy numerical inflation. A 15-shift evocation hitting a Mythically Tough character with Superb defences, or a Supernaturally Tough character with Legendary defences, or whatever, can be soaked with a few FP and consequences.

And like I've been saying, I'd like to keep the numbers sane-ish. For a variety of reasons, including preserving the usefulness of weapon attacks by gods and giving people like Knights a chance to survive an attack or two.

Though even with my attempts to keep the numbers sensible, the Mothers will be rocking ridiculously inflated stats.

PS: I've been considering a custom Power or a power level rule that increases the value of a god's consequences. 2 shifts for a mild seems trivial, when the numbers are this big. Any thoughts on that?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on January 22, 2014, 12:56:54 PM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 22, 2014, 08:46:00 AM

The swords in the novels don't work the same as the swords in the game. C'est la vie.

Anyway, I think the Swords should be able to kill gods. But it shouldn't be easy. And if Mab has no toughness against the Sword...assuming a base attack skill of Fantastic and a weapon rating of 5 against a Legendary defence skill, one fate point is enough to put a consequence on Mab.

Swords have a weapon rating of 3...  So two fate points.  One for ACEBG and one for the +2.  And even then, that's probably just stress.  So three fate points or one FP and a really good roll.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Hick Jr on January 22, 2014, 03:01:42 PM

I like it. I like it a lot. My one quibble would be that Miraculous Power might be overpriced by one Refresh, though. Otherwise id be overjoyed to use this in a game. Probably for Ozmadiel, because Miracles pretty well represents what I think the angelic version of spell casting would be.


EDIT: Actually, would you want to run some kind of one-shot to play test these rules?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on January 22, 2014, 03:18:22 PM

Quote from: Hick Jr on January 22, 2014, 03:01:42 PM

I like it. I like it a lot. My one quibble would be that Miraculous Power might be overpriced by one Refresh, though. Otherwise id be overjoyed to use this in a game. Probably for Ozmadiel, because Miracles pretty well represents what I think the angelic version of spell casting would be.


EDIT: Actually, would you want to run some kind of one-shot to play test these rules?

These aren't exactly PC powers, Hick.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Hick Jr on January 22, 2014, 03:20:01 PM

Quote from: narphoenix on January 22, 2014, 03:18:22 PM

These aren't exactly PC powers, Hick.

Do I need to sig "power hungry megalomaniac"?

Also, playtesting is important no matter the power level! You wouldn't want to try and have Pestilence (the Horseman) fight Freyja and then it turns out whoever bought the most Divine Toughness wins.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on January 22, 2014, 03:32:48 PM

Quote from: Hick Jr on January 22, 2014, 03:20:01 PM

Do I need to sig "power hungry megalomaniac"?

No. We're all aware of it. But being a power hungry megalomaniac can deter from the /real/ purpose of the game: making the PCs suffer as much as possible.

Quote

Also, playtesting is important no matter the power level! You wouldn't want to try and have Pestilence (the Horseman) fight Freyja and then it turns out whoever bought the most Divine Toughness wins.

In that theoretical throwdown (that would never happen because the two of them have too much power to throw around) I'd say Pestilence has the upper hand because of skills. Freyja has to spend skill points on Rapport because she's a seductive vixen. That said, it's very probable neither of them will throw down.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 22, 2014, 06:58:09 PM

Quote from: InFerrumVeritas on January 22, 2014, 12:56:54 PM

Swords have a weapon rating of 3...  So two fate points.  One for ACEBG and one for the +2.  And even then, that's probably just stress.  So three fate points or one FP and a really good roll.

I was assuming the Knight would have a stunt.

Quote from: Hick Jr on January 22, 2014, 03:01:42 PM

I like it. I like it a lot. My one quibble would be that Miraculous Power might be overpriced by one Refresh, though. Otherwise id be overjoyed to use this in a game. Probably for Ozmadiel, because Miracles pretty well represents what I think the angelic version of spell casting would be.


EDIT: Actually, would you want to run some kind of one-shot to play test these rules?

Maybe. I have a fair bit on my plate right now, but perhaps I'll have time later.

I'd recommend against using these as-is, though. Power level aside, I think they might make your character mesh poorly with a group of normal characters. And there are some bits which might just be generally wonky.

I'll consider lowering the cost of Miraculous Power.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on January 23, 2014, 02:12:23 AM

A lot of what I said before is possibly irrelevant, as I think I've changed my mind somewhat.

Given things like Michael being able to kill a full Dragon and Harry being able to

(click to show/hide)

defeat He Who Walks Before who "could go toe to toe with Mab"

, I think it might make more sense to say that a Faerie Queen/Dragon/god* is "normally" a stat-less plot device, but if you encounter it under the proper conditions (being a Knight "on mission", a Starborn vs. a super-Outsider, etc.) it has a "high-end stattable" (maybe 40-some Refresh, somewhat stronger than a Senior Council member) stat-block.

*"God" maybe not being the best term, since the only straightforward god we've met in the series is Odin, who may be just plain stattable level (though top end of it) from his performance in Changes and CD. Though that WoJ about "if he
threw down with Mab, neither knows who would win" does suggest he may be more ... plot-device-ish at times too.


As for Mab's Catch - I meant to specifically write it to exclude mortal magic. Just iron, Summer power, the Winter Knight, and other god-level beings.

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 22, 2014, 08:46:00 AM

Not without heavy numerical inflation. A 15-shift evocation hitting a Mythically Tough character with Superb defences, or a Supernaturally Tough character with Legendary defences, or whatever, can be soaked with a few FP and consequences.

The problem is that the control roll is also insanely high. If it's 15 power 15 control, Legendary defense roll leaves you with 22 stress. Spend a FP to boost it, and Supernatural Toughness is Armor:2, that drops it to 18. Stress track will be 7-8 boxes long, so that's 10-11 stress that has to be soaked up by consequences: at least a severe and a moderate, maybe a mild too.

A character in "Semi-Divine Comedy" managed to fill up all of Cowl (as statted by Deadmanwalking)'s consequences, including extreme, in one shot. If I hadn't counted him as a "main NPC" but just "significant", he'd have been totally dead.

And Mab (or even Eldest Gruff) really ought to be far, far more powerful on offense than a 30 Refresh Warden who spent six refresh points on stunts rather than just more and more Refinement.

Quote

PS: I've been considering a custom Power or a power level rule that increases the value of a god's consequences. 2 shifts for a mild seems trivial, when the numbers are this big. Any thoughts on that?

A very good idea. I believe there was a thread on this a while back.

IMO it should probably be just a rule for really high base Refresh characters rather than a separate power.

EDIT: formatting

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on January 23, 2014, 02:28:03 AM

Quote from: vultur on January 23, 2014, 02:12:23 AM

A character in "Semi-Divine Comedy" managed to fill up all of Cowl (as statted by Deadmanwalking)'s consequences, including extreme, in one shot. If I hadn't counted him as a "main NPC" but just "significant", he'd have been totally dead.

And Mab (or even Eldest Gruff) really ought to be far, far more powerful on offense than a 30 Refresh Warden who spent six refresh points on stunts rather than just more and more Refinement.

*whistles innocently*

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 23, 2014, 04:15:50 AM

Quote from: vultur on January 23, 2014, 02:12:23 AM

A lot of what I said before is possibly irrelevant, as I think I've changed my mind somewhat.

Given things like Michael being able to kill a full Dragon and Harry being able to

(click to show/hide)

defeat He Who Walks Before who "could go toe to toe with Mab"

, I think it might make more sense to say that a Faerie Queen/Dragon/god* is "normally" a stat-less plot device, but if you encounter it under the proper conditions (being a Knight "on mission", a Starborn vs. a super-Outsider, etc.) it has a "high-end stattable" (maybe 40-some Refresh, somewhat stronger than a Senior Council member) stat-block.

Hm, not a bad idea.

I don't believe in statless plot devices, though. If you don't have stats, you can't do anything. So I'd be inclined to stat the god-form too, possibly along the lines I've been using here.

Or possibly along simpler lines. Gods don't necessarily have to be characters, mechanically speaking. Maybe just a set of Aspects and a Miraculous Power rating...is it appropriate for a god to need to send out its avatar for social or knowledge stuff?

Quote from: vultur on January 23, 2014, 02:12:23 AM

As for Mab's Catch - I meant to specifically write it to exclude mortal magic. Just iron, Summer power, the Winter Knight, and other god-level beings.

That makes it better.

Still kind of fragile though. Like I said, Eldest Gruff could one-shot her.

Quote from: vultur on January 23, 2014, 02:12:23 AM

The problem is that the control roll is also insanely high. If it's 15 power 15 control, Legendary defense roll leaves you with 22 stress. Spend a FP to boost it, and Supernatural Toughness is Armor:2, that drops it to 18. Stress track will be 7-8 boxes long, so that's 10-11 stress that has to be soaked up by consequences: at least a severe and a moderate, maybe a mild too.

A character in "Semi-Divine Comedy" managed to fill up all of Cowl (as statted by Deadmanwalking)'s consequences, including extreme, in one shot. If I hadn't counted him as a "main NPC" but just "significant", he'd have been totally dead.

And Mab (or even Eldest Gruff) really ought to be far, far more powerful on offense than a 30 Refresh Warden who spent six refresh points on stunts rather than just more and more Refinement.

That's why Divine Toughness stacks forever! Each level of Divine Toughness adds 3 to amount of stress needed to one-shot you. Each level of Miraculous Power adds 2 to the amount of stress you do. So Divine Toughness should outpace Miraculous Power, leading to better-paced fights.

In theory.

Quote from: vultur on January 23, 2014, 02:12:23 AM

A very good idea. I believe there was a thread on this a while back.

IMO it should probably be just a rule for really high base Refresh characters rather than a separate power.

Yeah, I've had this idea bouncing around for while. I may have mentioned it, or maybe I got it from the thread you're thinking of.

I might start another thread for this later, but in the meantime...what kind of multiplier would be appropriate for gods? 2.5, maybe?

5 shifts for a mild, 10 for a moderate, all the way up to 20 for an extreme. Sounds reasonable-ish for a character for whom a 10-shift evocation is a weak attack.

I'll reconsider my approach and post something new tomorrow. Gonna see if I can make this "avatar" idea work.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on January 23, 2014, 04:41:47 AM

For characters like this, I write up a series of aspects and challenge ratings.

Social Challenge 6
Physical Challenge 8
Magical Challenge 12

For example.  Sometimes, I'll split these into offense/defense.  Any stress boxes I'd give them would be purely narrative.  They wouldn't be to kill the entity (that would be a plot level artifact or ritual whose sole purpose would be "godslayer" or whatever), but filling up the stress would mean that you won the conflict/challenge.

I just assume that if I can think it, the god can do it.  As long as I think it fits with the god's description. 

I also kind of like the idea of a FAE style approach to skills, rather than stating every ability out.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 23, 2014, 04:56:12 AM

I can see the appeal in simplified character stats, but why do that for gods and not for normal people? A similar list of challenge ratings/approaches could work for just about anyone.

The problem with the "if I can think it" approach is that gods definitely have limits. IIRC, keeping Harry alive was actually hard for Mab. And obviously they can't casually kill each other.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on January 23, 2014, 06:34:05 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 23, 2014, 04:15:50 AM

Or possibly along simpler lines. Gods don't necessarily have to be characters, mechanically speaking. Maybe just a set of Aspects and a Miraculous Power rating...

Yeah, that sounds good, I think. The thing is that e.g. Mother Winter or Ferrovax's exact skill ratings or whether their Toughness is Mythic or Mythic+Divinex5 is only relevant if you've gotten them into one of those situations where they can actually be challenged by a mortal.

But everything should have Aspects, definitely, and a Miraculous Power rating to compare them to other uberpowerful beings makes sense.

Quote

is it appropriate for a god to need to send out its avatar for social or knowledge stuff?

At least for dealings in the mortal world, I think most use avatars or "whispered presence" projections for pretty much everything, at least for the upper tiers of power. There's WoJs about how they damage the mortal world if they're here too fully, and also that it makes them vulnerable, and that Odin is unusual for being totally cool with that vulnerability. (and maybe that explains what I was wondering about Odin's power level... he's just in the "can actually be meaningfully challenged by powerful mortals" mode most of the time, while for others it's a rare exception).

Though that may be more for the upper-upper-tier types; Mab is able to hang around the mortal world for quite a while in GS, and while it leads to freaky weather, the world doesn't break or anything.

---

I think I might write up "if they're in a position to actually be defeated" for a couple of high-power beings... He-Who-Walks-Before we actually saw in combat. I could do Mab, though it'd be very similar to my Lea stats (did I ever post those, btw? Beyond the crappy version I made back in like 2010 when I was just learning DFRPG).

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on January 23, 2014, 01:03:46 PM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 23, 2014, 04:56:12 AM

I can see the appeal in simplified character stats, but why do that for gods and not for normal people? A similar list of challenge ratings/approaches could work for just about anyone.

The problem with the "if I can think it" approach is that gods definitely have limits. IIRC, keeping Harry alive was actually hard for Mab. And obviously they can't casually kill each other.

Simple: Gods can do so much that trying to stat it all leads to massive stat blocks and spends a lot of my not gaming time.  Normal characters I can usually whip up pretty quickly (although I still use their effective skill level as a guide to how much of a challenge they can be). 

RE: If I can think it.  That's fair.  Perhaps just list things that are within their scope of power, gray areas, and things they can't do.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: S1C0 on January 23, 2014, 04:27:14 PM

I though Mab had trouble keeping Harry alive because she is winter, and winter is not pro-life for thaumaturgy.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 24, 2014, 05:35:17 AM

Quote from: vultur on January 23, 2014, 06:34:05 AM

I think I might write up "if they're in a position to actually be defeated" for a couple of high-power beings... He-Who-Walks-Before we actually saw in combat. I could do Mab, though it'd be very similar to my Lea stats (did I ever post those, btw? Beyond the crappy version I made back in like 2010 when I was just learning DFRPG).

Far as I know the only Lea you posted is the 2010 one in Deadmanwalking's canon stat thread.

I vaguely remember liking those stats when I first saw them, but now they look a bit uninspired. I guess my standards have gone up.

Thinking over the avatar approach a bit more, I think it'd be best to stat gods up as characters with the traits that they have when vulnerable...but with a Power that basically says "this is not my true form". That way everything fits together tidily, mechanically speaking.

Quote from: InFerrumVeritas on January 23, 2014, 01:03:46 PM

Simple: Gods can do so much that trying to stat it all leads to massive stat blocks and spends a lot of my not gaming time.  Normal characters I can usually whip up pretty quickly (although I still use their effective skill level as a guide to how much of a challenge they can be).

Didn't think of that. Makes sense.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 24, 2014, 06:19:00 AM

For consequences, I'm thinking maybe we could modify their value by 50% for each point of skill cap modification.

So with a Good skill cap, you've got 1/2/3/4 consequences. Nearly worthless...maybe too harsh.

With a Fantastic skill cap, you've got 3/6/9/12 consequences. Sounds about right.

With an Epic skill cap, you've got 4/8/12/16 consequences. Pretty ridiculous with Recovery and extra milds, but...if you have an Epic skill cap, ridiculous is standard.

And with a Legendary skill cap, you've got 5/10/15/20 consequences. Dunno if that's appropriate, but I don't see an obvious problem with it.

Sound reasonable?

That makes god fights much less rocket-taggy. But gods will still be taking consequences with almost every hit from another god or a Knight of the Cross. Maybe I should keep some form of Divine Toughness.

Here's my new list of planned Musts for gods:

A God Am I [-7]
Miracles [-12]
Divine Domain [-7]
Demesne [-1]
Marked By Power [-1]
No Metabolism [-1]
Ghost Speaker [-1]
Aura Of Influence [-0]
Dual Nature [-0]
Undying [-0]

And here's a A God Am I.

A GOD AM I [-7?]
Description: You're a god! Holy crap!
Musts: You must have the Demesne, Miracles, and Divine Domain Powers to take this one.
Skills Affected: Many.
Effects:
Godbody. You don't have a body. You are a part of the universe's structure, not a singular entity. As such, you are immune to all forms of attack. You may interact with the physical universe only through your Miracles Power, which may affect anything within your Demesne and anything you can perceive with your Divine Domain.
Avatar. You may assume a physical body in order to interact with the physical universe. This cancels out the Godbody trapping of this Power and makes you vulnerable to attack, but lets you take actions like a normal character. Under some circumstances you may be forced to use this effect. Exactly which circumstances qualify depends on who you are, but Halloween, being attacked by a fellow god, and being challenged by a Knight of the Cross all qualify for pretty much everyone.

Okay, that's not ideal. But it's a start. Suggestions would be appreciated.

PS: I've been thinking...a scale chart to go along with the time chart would be handy for Thaumaturgy. When it comes to something like smiting a city or turning an entire family into monsters, counting zones just isn't a good way to determine complexity. I'm thinking the steps could be...

A single target
A zone/two people
A zone and every adjacent zone/ten people
A small building/thirty people
A couple of big buildings/a hundred people
A city block/three hundred people
A neighbourhood/a thousand people
A kilometre or so in every direction/three thousand people
A town/ten thousand people
A city/thirty thousand people
A big city/one hundred thousand people

and each step up the chart would cost 2 shifts.

It's intentional that targeting by area can hit more people than targeting by, say, bloodline. But even targeting people rather than places with large-scale thaumaturgy shouldn't be too precise.

Setting a neighbourhood on fire with this system would probably cost around 17 shifts. 5 for the effect and 12 for the scale. That sounds reasonable-ish, but maybe a bit too easy. 17 is supposed to be a lot, but it's pretty manageable.

Setting a big city on fire would be 25 shifts, then. That's almost certainly too easy. Maybe the chart scales too hard near the end.

Anyway, thoughts?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on January 25, 2014, 05:28:05 AM

I agree there needs to be a better scale system for thaumaturgy than "X zones". Eb can do city- to regional-scale effects, and he's not a plot-device-level god.

But it needs to go along with an actual limit on what you can get Complexity-wise from Declarations, so that your average sorcerer can't blow up cities just by spending enough time prepping.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on January 25, 2014, 05:36:12 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 24, 2014, 05:35:17 AM

Far as I know the only Lea you posted is the 2010 one in Deadmanwalking's canon stat thread.

I vaguely remember liking those stats when I first saw them, but now they look a bit uninspired. I guess my standards have gone up.

Yeah, those are the old (not vey good) stats I was referring to. I even gave her the ability to soulgaze for some reason (actually because I just gave her everything the Wizard template had  :-[)

What thread should I post my new version in? The same one?

Quote

Thinking over the avatar approach a bit more, I think it'd be best to stat gods up as characters with the traits that they have when vulnerable...but with a Power that basically says "this is not my true form". That way everything fits together tidily, mechanically speaking.

Maybe... but it's not something that they can actually use as a power, at least most of the time.

I don't really think avatar (at least in the D&D inspired sense of the word), nor the Godbody effect of A God Am I, is an accurate representation  of what's going on. It's the same being, not a separate body that they split off. Mab doesn't exist in some bodiless state most of the time and just sometimes manifest a humanoid body to walk around in; at least we've never seen anything to suggest that. I think at least god-like beings that are "mantle based" with an original creature under it ... however transformed .... really do have a body all the time. (Angels/archangels/fallen angels may be different being "all soul" ... maybe, we really don't know).

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 25, 2014, 06:05:24 AM

Quote from: vultur on January 25, 2014, 05:28:05 AM

I agree there needs to be a better scale system for thaumaturgy than "X zones". Eb can do city- to regional-scale effects, and he's not a plot-device-level god.

But it needs to go along with an actual limit on what you can get Complexity-wise from Declarations, so that your average sorcerer can't blow up cities just by spending enough time prepping.

Hey, one problem at a time. There are solutions for that, but they're not related to this.

Quote from: vultur on January 25, 2014, 05:36:12 AM

Yeah, those are the old (not vey good) stats I was referring to. I even gave her the ability to soulgaze for some reason (actually because I just gave her everything the Wizard template had  :-[)

What thread should I post my new version in? The same one?

Seems like a good place for it to me.

Quote from: vultur on January 25, 2014, 05:36:12 AM

Maybe... but it's not something that they can actually use as a power, at least most of the time.

I don't really think avatar (at least in the D&D inspired sense of the word), nor the Godbody effect of A God Am I, is an accurate representation  of what's going on. It's the same being, not a separate body that they split off. Mab doesn't exist in some bodiless state most of the time and just sometimes manifest a humanoid body to walk around in; at least we've never seen anything to suggest that. I think at least god-like beings that are "mantle based" with an original creature under it ... however transformed .... really do have a body all the time. (Angels/archangels/fallen angels may be different being "all soul" ... maybe, we really don't know).

So you think Mab has a body in her Demesne, but is all-powerful there?

Plausible, I guess.

Is there any WoJ on this? I can write up gods either as bodiless forces that occasionally incarnate or as material beings that occasionally leave their domains, but not as both. And I'm not really sure which one to go with here.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on January 25, 2014, 07:27:12 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 25, 2014, 06:05:24 AM

So you think Mab has a body in her Demesne, but is all-powerful there?

Well, not all-powerful. (EDIT: Just to the point that mortals, even say the Merlin, might as well not try. Mother Summer or Winter could still slap her down.)

And I don't think it's actually purely based on being in a place of power, though that's important. The place of power = I'm stronger thing seems to apply to powerful-but-more-fightable entities like naagloshii and the Lords of Outer Night, too (and arguably Harry, now, though probably not the same mechanism).

Being in the mortal world does per WoJ make them more vulnerable... but that's slightly different.

Quote

Is there any WoJ on this? I can write up gods either as bodiless forces that occasionally incarnate or as material beings that occasionally leave their domains, but not as both. And I'm not really sure which one to go with here.

Not as far as I know. I just don't see any evidence/mention that they ever are bodiless. (Though that's kind of an elusive concept if you're in the Nevernever anyway... even pure spirits and ghosts and stuff seem to be physically-interactable there ... and Bob has a sort of very limited 'body' even in the mortal world when he leaves the skull...)

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Taran on January 25, 2014, 03:49:59 PM

What if the mortal world works as a threshold on their powers?

So, you could stat 'em all up, then apply a threshold based on how "alien" they are from the mortal world.  Or maybe that doesn't even matter...maybe it's just he same threshold across the board.

Things like physical immunity etc would be some of the first powers to go. 

Tapping into the powers they've left behind requires them to reduce the threshold between reality which is why it mucks up with things when God-like entities spend too much time in the mortal realm.

Edit: the more I think about it, the more I like it.

If you look at the things that lower a threshold (usually Lawbreaker stuff - but not always).  Every time a god(ling) does things like that in the mortal world, It breaks down the natural threshold of the mortal realm.  This is why Mab can't kill mortals and all that kind of stuff and needs Knights to do her dirty work.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on January 25, 2014, 09:45:21 PM

Quote from: Taran on January 25, 2014, 03:49:59 PM

What if the mortal world works as a threshold on their powers?

So, you could stat 'em all up, then apply a threshold based on how "alien" they are from the mortal world.  Or maybe that doesn't even matter...maybe it's just he same threshold across the board.

Things like physical immunity etc would be some of the first powers to go. 

Tapping into the powers they've left behind requires them to reduce the threshold between reality which is why it mucks up with things when God-like entities spend too much time in the mortal realm.

Edit: the more I think about it, the more I like it.

If you look at the things that lower a threshold (usually Lawbreaker stuff - but not always).  Every time a god(ling) does things like that in the mortal world, It breaks down the natural threshold of the mortal realm.  This is why Mab can't kill mortals and all that kind of stuff and needs Knights to do her dirty work.

Stolen.  For almost every game I ever run.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 26, 2014, 07:28:48 AM

Thematically appropriate, but mechanically kind of iffy. The effects of Thresholds have never been properly defined.

Quote from: vultur on January 25, 2014, 07:27:12 AM

Well, not all-powerful. (EDIT: Just to the point that mortals, even say the Merlin, might as well not try. Mother Summer or Winter could still slap her down.)

And I don't think it's actually purely based on being in a place of power, though that's important. The place of power = I'm stronger thing seems to apply to powerful-but-more-fightable entities like naagloshii and the Lords of Outer Night, too (and arguably Harry, now, though probably not the same mechanism).

Being in the mortal world does per WoJ make them more vulnerable... but that's slightly different.

...

Not as far as I know. I just don't see any evidence/mention that they ever are bodiless. (Though that's kind of an elusive concept if you're in the Nevernever anyway... even pure spirits and ghosts and stuff seem to be physically-interactable there ... and Bob has a sort of very limited 'body' even in the mortal world when he leaves the skull...)

Thinking over it a bit more, I think I'm gonna do this your way. I still think gods might be bodiless (like ghosts) just going by the general impression I've received from them, but...mechanically speaking, it's much easier to do this your way.

I'm thinking I'll rewrite A God Am I so that it gives some benefits while in the Nevernever and some while in your domain.

In your domain I'm thinking it can give you +5 miraculous power, +1 to all rolls, immunity to attack, and the ability to target the entire universe with miracles. Maybe also ACaEBM or something like it.

In the Nevernever in general, I'm thinking it can give you +2 miraculous power and some extra durability.

Sound like a plan?

I'm undecided about how to handle a Knight of the Cross or a stronger god challenging a god in their domain, so suggestions for that would be appreciated.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: S1C0 on January 26, 2014, 04:29:09 PM

Contest through rolling , then invoking the changed scene for effect.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on January 26, 2014, 06:21:49 PM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 26, 2014, 07:28:48 AM

I'm undecided about how to handle a Knight of the Cross or a stronger god challenging a god in their domain, so suggestions for that would be appreciated.

I don't think the distinction between "can be meaningfully challenged by mortals" vs not is based on being in the domain. Being in the domain  makes you a more powerful version of whichever one IMO.

What makes "can be meaningfully challenged by mortals" would be stuff like:
- a Sword of the Cross in play (for pretty much anyone)
- another being of similar or greater power blocking/locking down its power (for pretty much anyone)
- a Starborn in play (for Walkers/other uberpowerful Outsiders/Old Ones)
- potentially Soulfire, properly used, though this may require being a starborn (who knows)....
- potentially being a "Knight" empowered by the being (though this may be a lie)...
- other plot devices or special weaknesses...

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 26, 2014, 07:40:22 PM

Quote from: S1C0 on January 26, 2014, 04:29:09 PM

Contest through rolling , then invoking the changed scene for effect.

What do you mean by that?

Quote from: vultur on January 26, 2014, 06:21:49 PM

I don't think the distinction between "can be meaningfully challenged by mortals" vs not is based on being in the domain. Being in the domain  makes you a more powerful version of whichever one IMO.

What makes "can be meaningfully challenged by mortals" would be stuff like:
- a Sword of the Cross in play (for pretty much anyone)
- another being of similar or greater power blocking/locking down its power (for pretty much anyone)
- a Starborn in play (for Walkers/other uberpowerful Outsiders/Old Ones)
- potentially Soulfire, properly used, though this may require being a starborn (who knows)....
- potentially being a "Knight" empowered by the being (though this may be a lie)...
- other plot devices or special weaknesses...

Pretty sure gods are stronger in their domains, even if hurting them outside their domains requires some extra advantage too.

Question is, is my suggested method a good way of representing how much stronger they are?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: S1C0 on January 27, 2014, 04:09:57 PM

have the god attack the scene with his power to downgraded the threshold or fabric of reality, when consequences appear the gods influence over the area increases, to handle a god-war lets say for example, Seth Egyptian god of chaos vs Apollo Greek god of the sun , the setting is the roman Colosseum, since Apollo is Greek and Greek culture was assimilated by roman Apollo is defensive because he is more There than Seth, less connections to location means more challenge to acting out of assumed character to actually be there he needs to first make the first aspect consequence on the clash area of effect, essentially most god vs god will be fighting through the environment since affecting the god directly is almost impossible cause their gods is my point.

wow that is confusing to me, do you get what im trying to type  Sanctaphrax

         

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 27, 2014, 09:29:43 PM

I think I get the gist, but I'm not sure how to implement that mechanically.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: S1C0 on January 27, 2014, 10:43:01 PM

The god that is their first is defensive , first chose what form of contest, social or mental for they rarely throw down on total war , make it a best of three to win.

How that would look if it were up to me, rock paper scissors.

Glad it is not... 

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 31, 2014, 03:45:11 AM

If I don't hear any objections by this weekend, I'll go ahead with more or less what I have here.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on February 01, 2014, 08:37:31 AM

I put up those stats for Lea we were discussing on the resource board, by the way. I tried to make her terrifyingly powerful... yet still vulnerable to someone who has iron and an opportunity.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 03, 2014, 06:22:28 AM

Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to postpone work on this. I doubt anyone is terribly disappointed, but I thought I should let y'all know.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on February 03, 2014, 02:31:11 PM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on February 03, 2014, 06:22:28 AM

Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to postpone work on this. I doubt anyone is terribly disappointed, but I thought I should let y'all know.

Our resident megalomaniac is probably disappointed.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Hick Jr on February 08, 2014, 04:38:35 AM

*Darth Vader voice*

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


I might still at least try to hack a statblock using these rules together.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on February 08, 2014, 04:58:39 AM

Quote from: Hick Jr on February 08, 2014, 04:38:35 AM

*Darth Vader voice*

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
.

Please allow the record to show that I totally called this.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on February 10, 2014, 04:02:40 AM

Sanctaphrax, do you mind if I do my own spin on this (based off your stuff, but different) and post it in this thread?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 10, 2014, 04:59:17 AM

Go for it.

I might just adopt your take wholesale if I like the look of it. No need to reinvent a dead horse, after all.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on February 11, 2014, 05:23:46 AM

OK, here's a new power. This is sort of a mix of Demesne and a "low end" version of Divine Domain... kind of, except not really, because it doesn't give you a "concepts" domain.

MATERIAL DEMESNE [-2]
Musts: Demesne, and either Miracles or some spellcasting ability.
Material Domain. You possess a domain on the mortal world, perhaps the size of a large building, city block or small park. You can combine your domain with those of other beings with this power, combining their sizes, but this is a permanent choice; you can't later exclude those beings. This domain is closely tied to your Nevernever demesne, though you can weaken the barrier between your material domain and your demesne down to as low as Average, or raise it as high as your Conviction + 2 (or Superb, whichever is higher).
Enhanced Power. You gain a +1 bonus to both power and control of any spellcasting or Miracles while in your domain.  This stacks with Refinement, focus items, and Miraculous Power.

Not sure of the costing...

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 11, 2014, 08:15:07 PM

Seems weak.

+1 miraculous power/spellcasting ability and slightly easier Nevernever travel seems like a pretty small benefit for 2 Refresh and a significant restriction.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Taran on February 11, 2014, 08:22:26 PM

I have some ideas for gods...while vultur is doing his thing.  It will involve the aforementioned thresholds....and it will make it all tidy and easily applicable all to god(ling)s.

...if I can find the time...

But I should first read up those miracle powers etc...are they in this thread?  Because I thought I'd read the whole thread and haven't seen those powers.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 11, 2014, 08:33:08 PM

Miracles is right there in the second reply.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on February 13, 2014, 02:27:41 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on February 11, 2014, 08:15:07 PM

Seems weak.

+1 miraculous power/spellcasting ability and slightly easier Nevernever travel seems like a pretty small benefit for 2 Refresh and a significant restriction.

I agree, but it seemed a bit much for 1 Refresh.  I suppose the place limitation could make up for the ability to stack ignoring Refinement pyramids, and the NN border thing isn't actually worth much... do you think 1 Refresh is OK?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 13, 2014, 05:00:07 AM

Yeah, I think 1 Refresh should be fine.

Maybe also let them push the NN boundary down to 0.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on February 16, 2014, 12:41:59 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on February 13, 2014, 05:00:07 AM

Yeah, I think 1 Refresh should be fine.

OK, cool.

Quote

Maybe also let them push the NN boundary down to 0.

What would that do as opposed to a border of 1? Would it let you cross without magic? I wouldn't think so... but there's no such thing as a 0 shift spell I don't think, so I don't see what mechanical difference a 0 border would make vs. a 1 border.

Anyway, with that Power, I will produce stats for Odin

(click to show/hide)

aka Kringle

after I re-read the relevant book parts. So probably in a week or so...

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Tedronai on February 16, 2014, 12:45:49 AM

Quote from: vultur on February 16, 2014, 12:41:59 AM

What would that do as opposed to a border of 1? Would it let you cross without magic? I wouldn't think so... but there's no such thing as a 0 shift spell I don't think, so I don't see what mechanical difference a 0 border would make vs. a 1 border.

It might be interpreted to allow crossing into the Nn as a 'minor effect'.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 16, 2014, 01:31:42 AM

Quote from: vultur on February 16, 2014, 12:41:59 AM

What would that do as opposed to a border of 1? Would it let you cross without magic?

I was thinking it would. Now that I think about it, it probably wouldn't.

But I think making an area where people can travel freely into the Nevernever would be an interesting and balanced effect, so maybe you could include something like that?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 01, 2014, 01:42:37 AM

OK, version two of Material Demesne.


MATERIAL DEMESNE [-1]
Musts: Demesne, and either Miracles or some spellcasting ability. Your High Concept must be appropriate to this ability: generally, that means being some sort of god or comparable power, a really powerful genius loci, or a lord of a supernatural faction with a defined 'home base' (like a Lord of Outer Night).
Material Domain. You possess a domain on the mortal world, perhaps the size of a large building, city block or small park. You can combine your domain with those of other beings with this power, combining their sizes, but this is a permanent choice; you can't later exclude those beings. This domain is closely tied to your Nevernever demesne, though you can weaken the barrier between your material domain and your demesne down to as low as Average, or raise it as high as your Conviction + 2 (or Superb, whichever is higher). Weakening or strengthening the barrier can be done as an act of will, almost immediately; in combat, it is a supplemental action.
Enhanced Power. You gain a +1 bonus to both power and control of any spellcasting or Miracles while in your domain.  This stacks with Refinement, focus items, and Miraculous Power.
Increased Domain Control [-1]. With this upgrade, you can entirely remove the barrier between your material domain and your Nevernever demesne. If you do this, any being can pass between the two with no more than a thought; no magic is required. You can still raise the barrier as high as your Conviction +2, even if you have previously removed it. In addition, you can rearrange the terrain in your material demesne by concentrating, but this takes significant time - perhaps ten minutes for minor changes like turning flat land into a low hill or a shallow pond, up to several hours for dramatic changes like turning sheer cliffs into flat land or vice versa. The new terrain still has to be physically possible unless you use other magic - if you create huge boulders floating in midair, they will immediately fall down.
Note: This power is usually taken in conjunction with Sponsored Magic - Place of Power for your material demesne.

OK, lowered cost, mentioned that changing the barrier is a supplemental action, and added an upgrade that lets people enter the NN domain without magic.

Not sure of the wording on the underlined bit, seems a bit awkward.

EDIT: Added High Concept requirement.
EDIT AGAIN: Added note about Sponsored Magic - Place of Power.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 01, 2014, 06:13:20 AM

Looks good to me.

Wording is a bit awkward, but it's no biggie.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 02, 2014, 10:17:56 PM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on March 01, 2014, 06:13:20 AM

Looks good to me.

Wording is a bit awkward, but it's no biggie.

If you have any specific suggestions on what to improve, I'd be glad to change it.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 02, 2014, 10:23:29 PM

High Concept: Lord of Outer Night
Other Aspects: Remnants of Divinity; Arrogant; Crushing Will

Skills
Epic (+7): Intimidation
Fantastic (+6): Lore
Superb (+5): Conviction, Discipline, Fists
Great (+4): Alertness, Contacts, Endurance, Presence
Good (+3): Athletics, Deceit, Rapport, Weapons
Fair (+2): Empathy, Might, Survival, Stealth, Scholarship
Other skills default to Average.

Stunts
Fear Is Leadership (Intimidation): Use Intimidation instead of Presence to coordinate a group
Rule with Fear (Intimidation): Use Intimidation instead of Presence for reputation
Red Court Contacts (Contacts): +2 to Contacts among the Red Court and allies (such as certain ghoul clans and mortal criminal organizations)

Powers
Addictive Saliva [-1]
Blood Drinker [-1]
Claws [-1]
Demesne [-1]
Flesh Mask [-1]
Incite Emotion (Terrified Awe) (At Range, Lasting, Potent, Super-Potent) [-5]
Material Demesne [-1] (Chichen Itza)
Sponsored Magic (Place of Power: Chichen Itza) [-2]
Thaumaturgy [-3]
Feeding Dependency [+1] affecting:
    Cloak of Shadows [-1]
    Supernatural Speed [-4]
    Supernatural Strength [-4]
    Mythic Recovery [-6]
    Mythic Toughness [-6]
        The Catch [+2]: holy stuff; belly doesn't benefit from Armor. Sunlight may have some effect, but is unreliable against vampires this powerful.

Specializations
Thaumaturgy – Complexity: Transformation & Disruption +1.

Focus Items
Ritual Mask: +2 to Complexity and Control with Transformation & Disruption

Stress
Hunger oooo +1 mild consequence
Mental oooo +1 mild consequence
Physical oooo(oooooo) Armor:3
Social oooo

Total Refresh Cost: -37

Notes:  The “Super-Potent” Incite Emotion upgrade is the same one from Vittorio Malvora's OW writeup: boosts mental attack to Weapon:6 once per scene.

 Place of Power Sponsored Magic gives the evocation effects of water (effects tend to manifest as blood or entropy) and the thaumaturgic effects of transformation/disruption. The extra benefit is +1 control to transformation/disruption.

I tried to make this guy really scary, yet at a level where it's reasonable Murphy could kill one with a Sword of the Cross. The Red King ran away from Morgan, too, so...

The combat characters from my “Semi-Divine Comedy” game wouldn't have much difficulty at all. Maybe I should scale it up somewhat? But I really don't think the Changes main characters are THAT optimized, so the LotON really shouldn't have physical defenses beyond Superb-Fantastic IMO...

EDIT: bolding
EDIT x2: hunger stress track

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 03, 2014, 02:51:09 AM

OK, so I'm thinking Odin next. Given what we learn about him in CD... do you think he should have some kind of Human Form or Modular Abilities type mechanic where he can have one set of abilities or the other active, but not both at once?

EDIT: Modular Abilities or something like it would, at least, get his otherwise ridiculous Refresh cost down to something vaguely sane, given all the things he should be good at.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 03, 2014, 04:15:02 AM

Looks okay to me. Hard to say for sure since the Lords get very little screentime, though.

I'd consider some custom upgrades for the Incite Emotion. Aren't they able to awe-strike multiple people at once?

Might buff the Sponsored Magic a little. Half a Refinement is rather weak for an extra benefit. Maybe give blood sacrifices some extra effectiveness when used with Chichen Itza Magic?

As for Odin, I have no idea. I wouldn't worry about giving him a ridiculous Refresh cost, since he's an NPC and a god to boot. But he does seem to wear various hats...no idea whether the guise he's in affects his abilities.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Hick Jr on March 11, 2014, 10:23:13 PM

Sorry if i'm breaking the Fifth Law here, but I was rereading Worm and I had a thought- a few of these Powers are pretty good ways to represent the Endbringers. Miracles easily handles BEHEMOTH's dynakinesis, both the "shoot lightning bolts" evocation-type attacks, and the "wreck an entire city" thaumaturgy-type attacks. Leviathan's macrohydrokinesis, especially the "power builds while you fight him" aspect, is also easily covered by Miracle's ritual stuff. The Simurgh might perform some kind of massive area psychic ritual that applies the ALTERED BY THE SIMURGH Aspect, which she Compels later on, and Divine Toughness represents their reality-shattering biological makeup that not even Foil beats.

Thoughts? With this, we could probably at least try to write up Scion too.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 12, 2014, 08:55:57 PM

I dunno about Scion, actually. He mostly just does standard stuff, except with bigger numbers and a win button that he hits occasionally.

Some kind of scale-enhancement mechanic might be a good idea. DFRPG just doesn't do really large attacks.

But Divine Toughness would be suitable for both him and the Endbringers.

And Miracles is pretty close to the hydro/dyna-kinesis of Leviathan and Behemoth. But it's not quite the same. Endbringers don't build up huge complexity over time and discharge it all instantly in a big one-shot ritual effect.

Miracles is closer to what Behemoth does and what Leviathan does than the Powers I actually used in their writeups, but that's not necessarily saying much.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 15, 2014, 05:46:45 AM

Wasn't there a custom power that was like The Sight but without the drawbacks? Would seem appropriate for Odin...

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on March 15, 2014, 06:38:35 AM

Quote from: vultur on March 15, 2014, 05:46:45 AM

Wasn't there a custom power that was like The Sight but without the drawbacks? Would seem appropriate for Odin...

Eye of Providence. It's on the wiki.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 15, 2014, 06:34:46 PM

OK, thanks (name sounds more like a True Faith power honestly...)

The really tricky bit with Odin is that he really deserves two High Concepts. Not sure which one to pick but

(click to show/hide)

I think I'm going with 'Kris Kringle the Winter King' as his actual High Concept as he's "mostly retired" as Odin

.

Right now he's looking like about 60 Refresh and a truly insane number of skill points (I think he deserves "all others default to Good").

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 18, 2014, 01:28:34 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on March 03, 2014, 04:15:02 AM

Looks okay to me. Hard to say for sure since the Lords get very little screentime, though.

I'd consider some custom upgrades for the Incite Emotion. Aren't they able to awe-strike multiple people at once?

Well, on re-reading, one does indeed use it to create a sort of 'barrier' against Harry and Sanya (it doesn't block Murphy because she has the Sword) on the steps of the pyramid.

Interestingly, one is also described as using its will to help out its warriors, so it's not really just a terror/awe thing. Maybe Incite Emotion isn't even the best way to model that ability -- it doesn't really seem to be different from a spirit evocation (which Harry often describes as using his will as force etc.) except that the Lords don't say a word (or use a focus item) to activate it -- and we know from Harry in FM that you CAN do magic without a spoken word, it's just more dangerous.

So on further thought, the 'force of will' bit might just be a highly refined aspect of evocation - what do you think?


EDIT: So maybe I should swap out the Incite Emotion for Evocation, Refinement, and some way to do mental attacks with it?

EDIT x2: This interpretation would also have the benefit of making Odin's stat block a little less messy, since I already
have him down as a very powerful wizard.

Quote

Might buff the Sponsored Magic a little. Half a Refinement is rather weak for an extra benefit. Maybe give blood sacrifices some extra effectiveness when used with Chichen Itza Magic?

Yeah, good idea... have to think about exactly how that would work.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 18, 2014, 09:39:44 AM

It could work as spellcasting. Mental attacks with evocation are ridiculously dangerous though. Even evothaum mental attacks, which don't have weapon ratings, are reasonably strong.

Strengthening warriors could just be a maneuver. Easy with all kinds of Powers.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 19, 2014, 03:27:10 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on March 18, 2014, 09:39:44 AM

It could work as spellcasting. Mental attacks with evocation are ridiculously dangerous though. Even evothaum mental attacks, which don't have weapon ratings, are reasonably strong.

Yeah.

The LoON mental lockdown is pretty crazy powerful though, it's only the use of a Sword of the Cross that defeats it (Bob's mental shield helps out, but it's just enough to get the Sword into play).

On second thought, though, I think it's actually a very powerful block rather than an attack, so they don't actually need any special mental evocation power. Actually it may not BE a mental attack in the same way Corpsetaker's stuff is -- Harry's description talks about it being a pain-in-the-nerves thing as well as immobility, so it may immobilize the body rather than overwhelm the mind.

So yeah, just Evocation with Refinements is probably enough.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on March 19, 2014, 04:48:24 AM

Quote from: vultur on March 19, 2014, 03:27:10 AM

Yeah.

The LoON mental lockdown is pretty crazy powerful though, it's only the use of a Sword of the Cross that defeats it (Bob's mental shield helps out, but it's just enough to get the Sword into play).

On second thought, though, I think it's actually a very powerful block rather than an attack, so they don't actually need any special mental evocation power. Actually it may not BE a mental attack in the same way Corpsetaker's stuff is -- Harry's description talks about it being a pain-in-the-nerves thing as well as immobility, so it may immobilize the body rather than overwhelm the mind.

So yeah, just Evocation with Refinements is probably enough.

Donar may need Miracles flat out (he doesn't seem to tire throwing a whole bunch of spells around). Maybe with a [-2] upgrade that allows it to cover all Evocation and Thaumaturgy?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 21, 2014, 03:37:02 AM

Where does he throw around that many spells? In Changes all he really does in the battle that we actually see on-screen is open the lightning gates (for the tengu army and to leave the battlefield). I'm sure he did more but it's not on-screen... I was re-reading the scene just yesterday to watch for what Odin and the LoON did. Eb seems to do more.

It's been longer since I read CD, but IIRC there he deals with the time thing and then is out of most of the rest of the conflict.

And wizards in the novels seem to be able to cast more spells than in the game, anyway without taking the sort of damage that would translate to consequences. Harry mostly just seems tired rather than anything that lasts, especially in the later books.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on March 21, 2014, 03:48:59 AM

Quote from: vultur on March 21, 2014, 03:37:02 AM

Where does he throw around that many spells? In Changes all he really does in the battle that we actually see on-screen is open the lightning gates (for the tengu army and to leave the battlefield). I'm sure he did more but it's not on-screen... I was re-reading the scene just yesterday to watch for what Odin and the LoON did. Eb seems to do more.

It's been longer since I read CD, but IIRC there he deals with the time thing and then is out of most of the rest of the conflict.

He engaged the Red Court. And a whole bunch of Outsiders. I don't care how badass you are, you need a way to throw tons of spells to do that.

Quote

And wizards in the novels seem to be able to cast more spells than in the game, anyway without taking the sort of damage that would translate to consequences. Harry mostly just seems tired rather than anything that lasts, especially in the later books.

Harry can take Sponsor Debt with ridiculous ease starting in Dead Beat. Of course he can keep going longer.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Cadd on March 21, 2014, 01:25:53 PM

Quote from: narphoenix on March 21, 2014, 03:48:59 AM

He engaged the Red Court. And a whole bunch of Outsiders. I don't care how badass you are, you need a way to throw tons of spells to do that.

Outsiders!? When? Or do you mean Lords of Outer Night?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on March 21, 2014, 04:26:36 PM

Quote from: Cadd on March 21, 2014, 01:25:53 PM

Outsiders!? When? Or do you mean Lords of Outer Night?

Cold Days. And I mean Outsiders. Like, Capital O. Hordes of them. Not in his own, granted, but he did it.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Cadd on March 21, 2014, 06:30:46 PM

Quote from: narphoenix on March 21, 2014, 04:26:36 PM

Cold Days. And I mean Outsiders. Like, Capital O. Hordes of them. Not in his own, granted, but he did it.

Of course! /headdesk
Don't mind me, I was just forgetting a whole book over here ;)

But wait - is he actually along for the fight? Some of it, probably, but nothing onscreen right? He lifts them out of the slow time lane, then we don't see him again until after the fight, right?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 21, 2014, 10:40:44 PM

If it was off-screen, then he might not have been casting spells at all. Odin's well-known for using a spear, after all.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 22, 2014, 12:52:37 AM

Quote from: narphoenix on March 21, 2014, 03:48:59 AM

Harry can take Sponsor Debt with ridiculous ease starting in Dead Beat. Of course he can keep going longer.

Yeah, but Ramirez does it too -- in WN, he casts an awful lot of those green disintegration rays, plus his weird entropy shield...

(BTW, is that a D&D reference? The D&D disintegrate spell produces a green ray...)

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: narphoenix on March 22, 2014, 01:14:07 AM

Quote from: vultur on March 22, 2014, 12:52:37 AM

Yeah, but Ramirez does it too -- in WN, he casts an awful lot of those green disintegration rays, plus his weird entropy shield...

(BTW, is that a D&D reference? The D&D disintegrate spell produces a green ray...)

His disintegration rays can easily be modeled as a zone wide spell.

And knowing Jim, maybe. 

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 22, 2014, 02:17:46 AM

Anyway, Odin seems to be using his spear as a focus item to open the lightning-gate, so I think his ability is "regular" (if extremely powerful/refined) spellcasting.

His training Merlin may also be evidence in that direction.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 22, 2014, 04:59:30 AM

The Red King actually uses his will to knock physical holes in the wall. So rather than being a mental Incite Emotion attack, I really do think it's mechanically closest to spirit (force) evocation... the 'air barrier' bit is pretty similar to Harry's shield. Etc.

There seems to be an in-world distinction, but that doesn't necessarily translate to a mechanical one.

OK, spellcasting version of the LoON.

High Concept: Lord of Outer Night
Other Aspects: Remnants of Divinity; Arrogant; Crushing Will

Skills
Epic (+7): Conviction
Fantastic (+6): Intimidation, Lore
Superb (+5): Discipline, Fists
Great (+4): Alertness, Contacts, Endurance, Presence
Good (+3): Athletics, Deceit, Rapport, Weapons
Fair (+2): Empathy, Might, Survival, Stealth, Scholarship
Other skills default to Average.

Stunts
Fear Is Leadership (Intimidation): Use Intimidation instead of Presence to coordinate a group
Rule with Fear (Intimidation): Use Intimidation instead of Presence for reputation
Red Court Contacts (Contacts): +2 to Contacts among the Red Court and allies (such as certain ghoul clans and mortal criminal organizations)

Powers
Addictive Saliva [-1]
Blood Drinker [-1]
Claws [-1]
Demesne [-1]
Flesh Mask [-1]
Material Demesne [-1] (Chichen Itza)

Evocation [-3]
Refinement [-3]
Sponsored Magic (Place of Power: Chichen Itza) [-1]
Thaumaturgy [-3]

Feeding Dependency [+1] affecting:
    Cloak of Shadows [-1]
    Supernatural Speed [-4]
    Supernatural Strength [-4]
    Mythic Recovery [-6]
    Mythic Toughness [-6]
        The Catch [+2]: holy stuff; belly doesn't benefit from Armor. Sunlight may have some effect, but is unreliable against vampires this powerful.

Specializations
Evocation - Elements (Earth, Spirit, Water); Control: Spirit +3, Water +2. Power: Spirit +1.
Thaumaturgy – Complexity: Transformation & Disruption +1. Control: Transformation & Disruption +1.

Focus Items
Ring: +1 to Offensive Spirit Power and Control
Ritual Mask: +1 to Complexity and Control with Transformation & Disruption

Rotes
Crushing Will: 9 shift spirit offensive block
Red Rays: 9 shift spirit attack, Weapon:9, used as a spray attack split among up to three targets

Stress
Hunger oooo +1 mild consequence
Mental oooo +1 mild consequence
Physical oooo(oooooo) Armor:3
Social oooo

Total Refresh Cost: -37

Notes:  The Chichen Itza Place of Power Sponsored Magic gives the evocation effects of water (effects tend to manifest as blood or entropy) and the thaumaturgic effects of transformation/disruption. The extra benefit is +1 control to transformation/disruption and an additional +1 complexity to any thaumaturgic spell using blood sacrifice (physical consequences) drawn from unwilling sacrifices.

Again, painfully far from optimized for this Refresh cost, but they need to be beatable by the Changes-level book characters...

EDIT: Evocation elements

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on March 22, 2014, 05:05:10 AM

Stat block contains CD spoilers.

(click to show/hide)

Name: Donar Vadderung / Kris Kringle / Odin
High Concept: Kris Kringle the Winter King
Other Aspects: CEO of Monoc Securities; “Mostly Retired” Lord of the Aesir; Thunder's Father; Warmth in a Cold Season; Skilled with Chronomancy

Skills
Epic: Discipline, Lore
Fantastic: Conviction, Presence, Resources, Weapons
Superb: Empathy, Endurance, Rapport, Scholarship
Great: Alertness, Athletics, Investigation, Might
Everything else defaults to Good.

Stunts
Leadership (Presence)
Military Resources (Resources): +2 to Resources when purchasing military gear - weapons, armor, combat vehicles etc.
Spearman (Weapons): +1 to Weapons attacks when using a spear

Powers
Demesne [-1]
Eye of Providence [-3]
Greater Glamours [-4]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Marked By Power [-1] (himself)
Material Demesne [-1]
Mythic Toughness [-6]
Mythic Recovery [-6]
     The Catch [+3]: iron

Evocation [-3]
Refinement [-27]  15 Thaumaturgy, 10 Evocation, 2 items
Thaumaturgy [-3]
Unseelie Magic [-2]

Specializations
Evocation: Elements (Air, Earth, Spirit); Control: Air +5, Earth +3, Spirit +1. Power: Air +6, Earth +4, Spirit +2.
Thaumaturgy: Complexity: Divination +7, Transportation & Worldwalking +5, Chronomancy +3, Wards +1. Control: Transportation & Worldwalking +6, Divination +4, Chronomancy +2. Frequency: Crafting +1. Strength: Crafting +2.

Focus Items
Spear: +3 offensive control with air
Spear: +1 complexity and control with transportation/worldwalking

Enchanted Items
Mail: 9 shift defensive block, 4 times/session (2 enchanted item slots)
4 “potion” (rune) slots

Total Refresh Cost: -61

EDIT: Evocation elements

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on April 20, 2014, 04:38:44 AM

OK, highly speculative here, but we have seen her more than any of the other beings of her power-level or above.

A few of the Aspects are straight from OW's entry on her (page 179), but others are changed due to more recent info. The super-high Contacts is also from OW.

All custom powers used except Aura of Influence are in these (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,40270.0.html) two (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,40270.msg1976470.html#msg1976470) posts by Sanctaphrax early in this thread.

High Concept: The Winter Queen of Air And Darkness
Other Aspects: "The Darkest Guardian"; Titania, My Sister, My Foe; Winter's Pity; Countless Minions; One Last Glimmer of Humanity?

In "plot device mode" only her Aspects and social abilities are truly relevant; she may be assumed to be immune to anything and capable of squashing mortals easily. Her Miraculous Power rating (6) can be used to define her power relative to other cosmic-level entities and gods.

When she is actually potentially vulnerable to mortal-level beings [it is Halloween night, the Stone Table Battlefield, or some other conjunction; a Sword of the Cross or similar effect is in play; etc.] her stats are as follows:

Skills
Legendary: Contacts, Conviction
Epic: Lore, Presence
Fantastic: Alertness, Discipline
Superb: Deceit, Resources
Great: Intimidation, Weapons
Good: Athletics, Endurance, Investigation
All other skills default to Fair

Stunts
Winter Contacts (Contacts): +2 to Contacts when dealing with Winter Fae
Honest Lies (Deceit)
The Weight of Reputation (Presence)
Leadership (Presence)
Winter Leadership (Presence): +2 to Presence when commanding a group of Winter Fae, stack with the bonus from Leadership

Powers
Aura of Influence [-0]
Demesne [-1] (Arctis Tor)
Divine Domain (Extra Benefits) [-8]
Greater Glamours [-4]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Marked By Power [-1] (herself)
Miracles [-12]
Miraculous Power (6) [-12]
Mythic Recovery [-6]
Mythic Toughness [-6]
    The Catch [+3]: cold iron, trappings of Summer
Undying [-0]

Stress
Mental oooo +2 mild consequences
Physical oooo(oooooo) Armor:3
Social oooo +2 mild consequences

Total Refresh Cost: -54

---


OK, after that exercise, I'm thinking Miraculous Power is too cheap.

Mab as statted here has automatic Control/Complexity/Power of 14 for everything, plus the advantages Miracles gives (everything's a Rote, "storing up" complexity, free complexity every day, thaum casting all in one exchange...), for 24 Refresh spent on it.

Odin, statted above, has Evocation Control 15/Power 12 with a focus item in his best element, and Thaum Complexity/Control of 15/12 with a focus item in his best specialty, and 12/13 in his second best... without the extra advantages... for 33 Refresh spent on spellcasting (35 Refresh if you count Unseelie Magic, but that just gives him entropomancy evothaum which isn't worth much, one-level-less Toughness against Summer, and ability to take sponsor debt on spells.)

But Miracles by itself doesn't seem too powerful IMO... it is really powerful, but 12 Refresh is a lot. It's really the non-pyramid nature of Miraculous Power vs the pyramid limitations of Refinement that makes the difference, IMO.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 20, 2014, 05:56:12 AM

Hm.

I don't have any specific complaints about these stats. They cover everything I can recall Mab doing and there's nothing there that seems off.

But still, I feel like maybe you're lowballing her. The PCs in EtA just took down a demon (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37090.msg2009817.html#msg2009817) with 69 Refresh, so seeing Mab with only 54 seems underwhelming. She's comparatively slow, fragile, and inflexible...I get that this is her at her weakest, but she just seems too easy to kill.

I guess she just doesn't feel like a "plot device". She feels like something you can fight and kill with a little bit of planning.

Quote from: vultur on April 20, 2014, 04:38:44 AM

OK, after that exercise, I'm thinking Miraculous Power is too cheap.

Mab as statted here has automatic Control/Complexity/Power of 14 for everything, plus the advantages Miracles gives (everything's a Rote, "storing up" complexity, free complexity every day, thaum casting all in one exchange...), for 24 Refresh spent on it.

Odin, statted above, has Evocation Control 15/Power 12 with a focus item in his best element, and Thaum Complexity/Control of 15/12 with a focus item in his best specialty, and 12/13 in his second best... without the extra advantages... for 33 Refresh spent on spellcasting (35 Refresh if you count Unseelie Magic, but that just gives him entropomancy evothaum which isn't worth much, one-level-less Toughness against Summer, and ability to take sponsor debt on spells.)

But Miracles by itself doesn't seem too powerful IMO... it is really powerful, but 12 Refresh is a lot. It's really the non-pyramid nature of Miraculous Power vs the pyramid limitations of Refinement that makes the difference, IMO.

I want to argue, but you're right. Spellcasting hits its ceiling before Miracles does. Mostly because Miracles has no ceiling.

Part of that is by design, since Miracles is for ridiculously overpowered beings and spellcasting isn't. And Odin's set-up is far from optimal. And Miracles is limited to one specialization field, while Odin has Refresh invested in all kinds of fields.

But still, it's not ideal. Any solution ideas?

Obviously it's not super-pressing, because pretty much nobody who needs to care about Refresh will ever use Miracles. But I like having appropriate costs for things.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on April 20, 2014, 07:04:03 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on April 20, 2014, 05:56:12 AM

Hm.

I don't have any specific complaints about these stats. They cover everything I can recall Mab doing and there's nothing there that seems off.

But still, I feel like maybe you're lowballing her. The PCs in EtA just took down a demon (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37090.msg2009817.html#msg2009817) with 69 Refresh, so seeing Mab with only 54 seems underwhelming. She's comparatively slow, fragile, and inflexible...I get that this is her at her weakest, but she just seems too easy to kill.

I guess she just doesn't feel like a "plot device". She feels like something you can fight and kill with a little bit of planning.

Well, the thing is, you only get these stats if some circumstance has made her vulnerable, which is pretty rare.

Once that's happened... well, WK-Harry chased away He Who Walks Before who "could go toe to toe with Mab". Michael killed a Dragon, and he wasn't a super high refresh  character at that point at all (he probably has the same skills/refresh base as Harry up until Small Favor... so likely Submerged pre-series, since he walks on in GP when Harry's one major milestone above Submerged).

So a party of PCs all at least as powerful as pre-WK Harry ... doesn't seem all that out of scope.

The trick is getting the "vulnerability circumstance".

EDIT: Also, looking at those stats, that demon's refresh cost is so high because he's so spread out. He has 12 Refresh spent on an Immunity, 15 spent on spellcasting, 20 spent on shapeshifting (and the True Shapeshifting/Modular Abilities powerset is really expensive in terms of Refresh), 8 on his Aura...

If you don't have holy damage, you lose, but... a character with Soulfire and 20-25 Refresh points into evocation would probably flatten him (based on what narphoenix's character in "Semi-Divine Comedy" can do).

Quote

But still, it's not ideal. Any solution ideas?

Either raise the cost of Miraculous Power to -3, or make it (say) -2 for the first two [or three?] purchases, -3 for the next, -4 for the next...

---

I edited Aura of Influence into Mab's stats.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 20, 2014, 08:09:58 AM

Quote from: vultur on April 20, 2014, 07:04:03 AM

Well, the thing is, you only get these stats if some circumstance has made her vulnerable, which is pretty rare.

Once that's happened... well, WK-Harry chased away He Who Walks Before who "could go toe to toe with Mab". Michael killed a Dragon, and he wasn't a super high refresh  character at that point at all (he probably has the same skills/refresh base as Harry up until Small Favor... so likely Submerged pre-series, since he walks on in GP when Harry's one major milestone above Submerged).

So a party of PCs all at least as powerful as pre-WK Harry ... doesn't seem all that out of scope.

They don't need to be that tough. 5 Feet In The Water PCs could kill her in one turn with no preparation and no FP, if everyone rolled 0 on everything and Mab had no FP/debt of her own. They'd have to start within attack range, and they'd all need exceptional initiative and iron weapons, but seriously...Feet In The Water.

Quote from: vultur on April 20, 2014, 07:04:03 AM

EDIT: Also, looking at those stats, that demon's refresh cost is so high because he's so spread out. He has 12 Refresh spent on an Immunity, 15 spent on spellcasting, 20 spent on shapeshifting (and the True Shapeshifting/Modular Abilities powerset is really expensive in terms of Refresh), 8 on his Aura...

That's actually mostly-optimal. Once you have a really huge stack of Refresh, diversifying is a very good idea.

If you read the big fight in which he dies, you'll see that all those varied abilities do him much more good than 30 Refresh worth of Refinement would have.

I mean, he died, but...he would have died much more easily without all that stuff.

Quote from: vultur on April 20, 2014, 07:04:03 AM

If you don't have holy damage, you lose, but... a character with Soulfire and 20-25 Refresh points into evocation would probably flatten him (based on what narphoenix's character in "Semi-Divine Comedy" can do).

Unlikely, unless the Soulfire wielder also had some other tricks up their sleeve. With access to Mythic Speed, Wings, and Evocation he can brutalize most characters and then just leave the fight. Three zones of flying movement is usually enough to get out of Evocation range, unless you're in an empty field.

And with Mythic Toughness + Supernatural Stoicism + Fantastic Discipline + Epic Athletics he can tank a lot of damage.

Mab can't do that kind of thing, because she's not so diversified. And she has a glaring Catch. Naturally she has her own strengths, but in a straight fight her vulnerable mode is significantly weaker than Matchitehew.

And he died.

She'd die too if she tried to fight serious opposition.

Like I said before there's nothing exactly wrong with those stats (though I'd houserule in Stoicism for her), but it just seems wrong to me how easily she could die.

Maybe let her retain at least a bit of Toughness when hit with iron?

Quote from: vultur on April 20, 2014, 07:04:03 AM

Either raise the cost of Miraculous Power to -3, or make it (say) -2 for the first two [or three?] purchases, -3 for the next, -4 for the next...

I'd rather not increase the flat cost because the problem only arises at the really high levels. But the scaling cost suggestion has potential, I think.

Too tired to run the numbers right now though.

Quote from: vultur on April 20, 2014, 07:04:03 AM

I edited Aura of Influence into Mab's stats.

Good call.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: PirateJack on April 20, 2014, 12:34:13 PM

You should probably upgrade Mab's speed to Supernatural or Mythic. In the ballroom scene at the start of Cold Days, when one of the Red Cap's goons draws blood from Sarissa, Mab moves fast enough that she seems to teleport down on to the dance floor. Also, her demesne is the entirety of Winter, not just Arctis Tor, though that is the centre of her power. Perhaps there are a few scene aspects on Arctis Tor that would model her increased power there?

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on April 21, 2014, 01:12:55 AM

Quote from: PirateJack on April 20, 2014, 12:34:13 PM

You should probably upgrade Mab's speed to Supernatural or Mythic. In the ballroom scene at the start of Cold Days, when one of the Red Cap's goons draws blood from Sarissa, Mab moves fast enough that she seems to teleport down on to the dance floor.

OK, yeah, probably Supernatural then. Black Court movement is also described that way and I think they have Supernatural Speed.

Quote

Also, her demesne is the entirety of Winter, not just Arctis Tor, though that is the centre of her power. Perhaps there are a few scene aspects on Arctis Tor that would model her increased power there?

I've been playing around with a power/expansion to Demesne that would give her a "core demesne" and then an "expanded demesne".

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on April 21, 2014, 02:39:55 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on April 20, 2014, 08:09:58 AM

They don't need to be that tough. 5 Feet In The Water PCs could kill her in one turn with no preparation and no FP, if everyone rolled 0 on everything and Mab had no FP/debt of her own. They'd have to start within attack range, and they'd all need exceptional initiative and iron weapons, but seriously...Feet In The Water.

Possibly in an ideal situation, but I doubt an actual party with a range of niches could do that at that level. They'd have to have Inhuman Speed and Good+ Alertness to act before Mab, and Great skill with an iron weapon...  you're not going to get 5 FitW chars who all have that.

And as soon as Mab acts (Epic initiative) she does a 12 shift block + 2 shifts in persistence, survives one round of attacks, and then uses a zone wide Weapon:12 control 14 attack.

EDIT: And getting into a situation where that could work is really the bigger challenge.

Still, you have a very good point.

Supernatural Speed would help her quite a bit, as would giving her a higher Athletics.


What would help even more is a defensive Enchanted Item... does Miracles allow for that? If not, that's actually a (fairly significant) disadvantage relative to regular spellcasting. So it should allow it, IMO. The lack of foci makes it tricky though... maybe just "you have 4 enchanted item slots, and can buy more with Refinement; these slots can't be used for focus items".

However ... there's a comment by Jim about how Murphy or Butters could kill Mab under ideal circumstances, very unlikely, but they'd have a better chance than the Erlking, who would have zero chance. So giving her really awesome defenses before she throws a Miracles block may not be right. I could just Compel her not to use the enchanted item, but if it would get her killed that seems a bit beyond what a Compel can fairly do (though for an NPC it matters a lot less).

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That's actually mostly-optimal. Once you have a really huge stack of Refresh, diversifying is a very good idea.

Yeah, once you hit the cap, but wouldn't optimizing his spellcasting up to his Lore-cap on Refinement be more powerful than some of the modular abilities/shapeshifting?

He has a +2 offensive power and a +2 offensive control focus item, and his Refinement evocation bonus in his best element is +3 control/+2 power, which with his 7 Conviction and 6 Discipline, means he's casting Control 11/Power 11, offensively, in his best element and with Hellfire. He could go up to Control 15/Power 15 or Control 18/Power 12 with a +6/+5 refinement bonuses and a +3/+3 (or +6) focus item.

Not that I'm saying he SHOULD be maximally optimized... he should be statted however makes a good challenge for your characters, of course. But I think such a build would indeed be more powerful.

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If you read the big fight in which he dies, you'll see that all those varied abilities do him much more good than 30 Refresh worth of Refinement would have.

I mean, he died, but...he would have died much more easily without all that stuff.

Could you link to that specific part of the intimidatingly huge IC thread? ;)

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Unlikely, unless the Soulfire wielder also had some other tricks up their sleeve. With access to Mythic Speed, Wings, and Evocation he can brutalize most characters and then just leave the fight. Three zones of flying movement is usually enough to get out of Evocation range, unless you're in an empty field.

A good point.

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(though I'd houserule in Stoicism for her),

I'd have put it in if I wrote stats for "public consumption" assuming it exists. Stoicism/Mental Immunity powers do exist in "Semi-Divine Comedy", but I don't think of those powers' existence as a "standard assumption".

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Maybe let her retain at least a bit of Toughness when hit with iron?

Maybe so.

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But the scaling cost suggestion has potential, I think.

Yeah, I think it is better. Probably should scale pretty harshly.. Mab has six purchases and she's as good at everything magical as Odin is at his best specialties, for 2/3 the refresh cost into magic.


EDIT: removed extra quotes, duplicated comment about Matchitehew's spellcasting

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 21, 2014, 04:25:50 AM

Quote from: vultur on April 21, 2014, 02:39:55 AM

Possibly in an ideal situation, but

...

Still, you have a very good point.

Supernatural Speed would help her quite a bit, as would giving her a higher Athletics.

Yeah, it's a spherical cow example. Just making a point, it's not something that'd actually happen.

I'd probably go for Mythic Speed. Maybe she doesn't necessarily need it, but it'd make her tougher in a narratively-appropriate way.

Quote from: vultur on April 21, 2014, 02:39:55 AM

What would help even more is a defensive Enchanted Item... does Miracles allow for that? If not, that's actually a (fairly significant) disadvantage relative to regular spellcasting. So it should allow it, IMO. The lack of foci makes it tricky though... maybe just "you have 4 enchanted item slots, and can buy more with Refinement; these slots can't be used for focus items".

It doesn't allow items. They're a bit out of theme.

Maybe an upgrade Power could allow them?

It's not actually strictly better than spellcasting. It's powerful, but it's also narrow. My idea is that some gods would have both Miracles and some level of Thaumaturgy.

Quote from: vultur on April 21, 2014, 02:39:55 AM

However ... there's a comment by Jim about how Murphy or Butters could kill Mab under ideal circumstances, very unlikely, but they'd have a better chance than the Erlking, who would have zero chance. So giving her really awesome defenses before she throws a Miracles block may not be right. I could just Compel her not to use the enchanted item, but if it would get her killed that seems a bit beyond what a Compel can fairly do (though for an NPC it matters a lot less).

I think the fact that mortals can collect massive FP stacks and free-will-less beings like the Erlking generally can't covers for that well enough.

Quote from: vultur on April 21, 2014, 02:39:55 AM

Yeah, once you hit the cap, but wouldn't optimizing his spellcasting up to his Lore-cap on Refinement be more powerful than some of the modular abilities/shapeshifting?

He has a +2 offensive power and a +2 offensive control focus item, and his Refinement evocation bonus in his best element is +3 control/+2 power, which with his 7 Conviction and 6 Discipline, means he's casting Control 11/Power 11, offensively, in his best element and with Hellfire. He could go up to Control 15/Power 15 or Control 18/Power 12 with a +6/+5 refinement bonuses and a +3/+3 (or +6) focus item.

Not that I'm saying he SHOULD be maximally optimized... he should be statted however makes a good challenge for your characters, of course. But I think such a build would indeed be more powerful.

He'd be well served by a few more offensive Refinements. Maybe four more. But going all-in on spellcasting would have made him weaker.

And the shapeshifting isn't what I'd choose to get rid of if I was trying to make him more efficient. I'd start with Unholy Touch and the Thaumaturgy Refinements.

Quote from: vultur on April 21, 2014, 02:39:55 AM

Could you link to that specific part of the intimidatingly huge IC thread? ;)

Sure. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34761.390.html)

It's a long scene and Matchitehew takes a little while to show up, but if you keep reading you'll see why it's good for him to have Immunity, shapeshifting, and a Dangerous Aura.

In retrospect, I introduced too many NPCs that scene. I wanted the players to feel like they were up against an army, but keeping track of all those mooks was a pain in the neck.

Quote from: vultur on April 21, 2014, 02:39:55 AM

I'd have put it in if I wrote stats for "public consumption" assuming it exists. Stoicism/Mental Immunity powers do exist in "Semi-Divine Comedy", but I don't think of those powers' existence as a "standard assumption".

Makes sense.

Quote from: vultur on April 21, 2014, 02:39:55 AM

Yeah, I think it is better. Probably should scale pretty harshly.. Mab has six purchases and she's as good at everything magical as Odin is at his best specialties, for 2/3 the refresh cost into magic.

Well, she can only cast spells that fit her domain. Miracles is a bit narrow, after all.

Maybe add 1 to the cost for every 3 purchases, or 1 for every 2 if that seems too mild.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: vultur on April 22, 2014, 02:00:49 AM

OK, I didn't catch that Miracles was limited to the being's domain. With that and the lack of items, OK, it's clearly not just "spellcasting but better", it does have its own limitations.

With that, I think increasing the cost to -3 for the fourth through sixth purchase, -4 for the seventh through ninth, etc. is good.

--

Yeah, FP is almost certainly the representation in-game of that "mortal advantage"...  very good point.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Taran on February 28, 2015, 02:18:45 PM

Because Sanctaphrax said we could resurrect:

Quote from: vulture

Sponsor debt is basically free (or, at least, fairly trivial) for Mab, so, yeah, she can do a 10 zone control 20 power 20 attack spell, or something ridiculous like that, if she really needs to. How many times is she going to have to fight the whole White Council anyway?

In regards to worshippers/beleivers, I think that's how big entities use sponsored debt.  They trade favours garnered from worshippers/beleivers to power their debt, pay off compels and what-not.

It might be neat to have a mechanic/power to represent that.  But it shouldn't be too powerful in regards to compels because these entities should act within their nature instead of always being able to pay off compels....but super-charging spells?  I think that would be useful.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Shaft on February 28, 2015, 05:03:40 PM

This thread got revived as a result of an attempt to stat Manannan Mac Lir, an Irish Sea God.  Feel free to have a look.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,44180.0.html

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 02, 2015, 03:44:22 AM

A couple of links that I expect to want later, if I decide to finish this:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37922.msg2072693.html#msg2072693 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37922.msg2072693.html#msg2072693)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,41132.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,41132.0.html)

Quote from: Taran on February 28, 2015, 02:18:45 PM

In regards to worshippers/beleivers, I think that's how big entities use sponsored debt.  They trade favours garnered from worshippers/beleivers to power their debt, pay off compels and what-not.

It might be neat to have a mechanic/power to represent that.  But it shouldn't be too powerful in regards to compels because these entities should act within their nature instead of always being able to pay off compels....but super-charging spells?  I think that would be useful.

Maybe gods could have a -X Power called Worshippers. It'd represent people making sacrifices and giving power to you, and it'd give you X points of free Sponsor Debt each session.

Spending X Refresh to essentially get X Refresh is a bit odd, I admit. But it seems to cover the basic effects of worship pretty well.

On second thought, it could be a Contacts stunt that you can take multiple times. That way pure mortals could draw power from worshippers...

On third thought, that's kinda weird. Probably better to make it a Power.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Taran on March 02, 2015, 01:19:02 PM

You could make it like a super boosted refinement but with some kind of draw-back because, you're right, it seems weird to pay refresh to be able to pay off compels. If it has a side benefit, then it's worth the refresh. 

Or maybe it provides benefits to powers(supercharging them) for some of the god-only powers.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Theogony_IX on March 02, 2015, 07:09:45 PM

Two thoughts.

1.  You could have the cost for the power be less than the benefit since it is restricted just for sponsorship.  The catch being only one sponsee.

[-1] Minor Sponsor (You must take this power again for each person you sponsor)
Power Broker - You may make a pact with a person to lend power when it is needed.  The strings attached to this pact are up to you.
Credit Limit - You may offer up to two fate points to another through a pact.  You own the compel attached to each fate point given and must use it to the purpose of the agreed upon strings of the pact.  A person may not owe you more compels than their credit limit.  Once a person's credit limit is reached, a compel must be paid before more debt can be accrued.
Breaking Pacts - At any time, you may choose to break this pact.  All remaining debt must be collected at that time.  Once the debt is discharged, this power may be removed and the refresh spent to buy it refunded.

This could be tiered like the building block powers, but it's a little unwieldy that way.

[-2] Major Sponsor
Credit Limit - 4

[-4] Godly Sponsor
Credit limit - 8

[-6] Supreme Sponsor
Credit Limit -12


2.  A less unwieldy option for multiple sponsees, you could have the cost be the same, but have an unlimited number of sponsees with the limit the same for each.

[-1] Minor Sponsor
Power Broker - You may make a pact with any number of people to lend power when it is needed.  The strings attached to this pact are up to you.  The credit limit for each person is the same.
Credit Limit - You may offer up to one fate points to another through a pact.  You own the compel attached to each fate point given and must use it to the purpose of the agreed upon strings of the pact.  A person may not owe you more compels than their credit limit.  Once a person's credit limit is reached, a compel must be paid before more debt can be accrued.

[-2] Major Sponsor
Credit Limit - 2

[-4] Godly Sponsor
Credit limit - 4

[-6] Supreme Sponsor
Credit Limit - 6


EDIT: You might also give option 2 a surcharge like Modular Abilities if you feel the need.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 03, 2015, 12:32:01 AM

I think Divine Domain already covers that sort of thing reasonably well.

Quote from: Taran on March 02, 2015, 01:19:02 PM

You could make it like a super boosted refinement but with some kind of draw-back because, you're right, it seems weird to pay refresh to be able to pay off compels. If it has a side benefit, then it's worth the refresh. 

Or maybe it provides benefits to powers(supercharging them) for some of the god-only powers.

Well, technically you're not paying Refresh to be able to pay off Compels. You're paying Refresh to avoid receiving Compels in the first place.

I dunno, it'd have to be an amazingly minor benefit or it'd be just better than leaving Refresh unspent.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Theogony_IX on March 03, 2015, 05:16:25 PM

Oh, my mistake.  I misunderstood the idea.

What about using a power or stunt that adds consequence boxes specific to this purpose.  Worship boxes.  A mild could be taken to avoid your next compel.  A moderate could be taken to avoid your next two compels.  Or rather than use them to avoid compels, they could be used to power spells or effects instead, as Taran was talking about.  I imagine they would be governed by the same consequence rules as the others.  The number of consequence slots you have, the level of them, and any kind of recovery power attached to them would depend on how many worshipers you have and how strongly they believe.

Just an idea.

Title: Re: Stats For Gods
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 04, 2015, 05:22:20 AM

That's a pretty interesting idea.

You can probably get two or three uses out of a Compel-replacing mild consequence each session. So maybe 2 Refresh for each worship mild?

Worship Recovery and bigger worship consequences would be dicey though. The bigger consequences might actually be weaker than milds since you can't use them as often, but Recovery completely changes the math.