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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: isoycrazy on July 29, 2019, 09:30:34 PM
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Just finished a reread of Small Favor and I noticed this question of who took the Coin is still not answered. I have laid out my ideas on six options for the fate of this Fallen One.
For Option 1, I don't see Marcone as stupid enough to risk using the Coin, or giving it to someone to try and control. He would keep it in his vaults, maybe one of the ones Harry walked by during the break-in. He knows the Church is corrupt, and so is trusting his own facilities to hold the Coin.
For Option 2, Vadderung doesn't need the Coin, but will secure it like any dangerous weapon. He could also use his Kringle mask to give the Coin some well deserved "coal" for being a bad boy all these millennia.
For Option 3, while tragic, it would just fit Harry's luck that some poor schmuck finds the coin without knowing the danger it possesses, and Harry has to deal with the victim. Pray it isn't found on someone's birthday.
For Option 4, I don't think Luccio ever was asked about the matter, but the White Council could have the means to secure the Coin from others.
For Option 5, similar to 4, but Peabody could have taken it from her and past it onto others so he could be reconstituted in a new host to work more with the Black Council.
For Option 6, while Mab doesn't typically go after such beings, this Fallen was instrumental in attacking her home. She went after Nicodemus for just breaking his word to her and damaging her name with the Accords. She would feel fully justified in making this Fallen One suffer as best she could, or maybe lock it away deep in her castle.
So, where is the Coin?
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My bet is on option number 2. Marcone is too canny to break his word, and Gard is the most obvious leak. Option 3 was discussed as unlikely, and Jim is too lazy to waste foreshadowing. Options 4 and 5 are possible, and I hadn’t considered them: I don’t think they’re the case, but they’re really awesome. Option 6 has the same problem as Option 3, that the coin was discussed as unlikely to have fallen into the water.
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I don't think Marcone would lie. If he had the coin, he'd probably boast to Harry about punishing Namshiel's transgression against him by burying the coin in the concrete foundations of one of his construction projects or something.
Luccio probably would have told Harry if she'd knowingly brought it back to the white council, and for her to have unknowingly brought it to the black, Peabody would have had to lay a specific compulsion on her to do so. It's not impossible, but the window of opportunity wouldn't have been long. I'm not sure the reward of obtaining a Denarian coin is worth the risk of burning Luccio as an asset if Harry or the Knights caught her taking it.
Gard snagging it for Vadderung seems the most likely option. Namshiel getting to Hendricks is also a possibility - he was piloting.
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How about instead of falling out into the water it happened before they left the island. Meaning it is still either on the Island and will cause a future problem or a squire found it. As far as we know Harry has never checked to see if there are any coins on the island.
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How about instead of falling out into the water it happened before they left the island. Meaning it is still either on the Island and will cause a future problem or a squire found it. As far as we know Harry has never checked to see if there are any coins on the island.
I agree, I fear that a new wizard Denarian will show up when Harry least expects it, and it will spell T-R-O-U-B-L-E!!!!
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How about instead of falling out into the water it happened before they left the island. Meaning it is still either on the Island and will cause a future problem or a squire found it. As far as we know Harry has never checked to see if there are any coins on the island.
I doubt that the coin would still be still on the island. When Harry sets foot on the island he instinctively Knows everything about the geography of the island and all the inhabitants. How long did he spend trapped on the island between Cold Days and Skin Game? Somehow I doubt that a Denarian coin passed unnoticed in all that time.
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I doubt that the coin would still be still on the island. When Harry sets foot on the island he instinctively Knows everything about the geography of the island and all the inhabitants. How long did he spend trapped on the island between Cold Days and Skin Game? Somehow I doubt that a Denarian coin passed unnoticed in all that time.
He'd have to consider the question of whether the coin was still there. And unless it was still in the blessed kerchief, Nic or Tessa had years to summon it back for redistribution.
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He'd have to consider the question of whether the coin was still there. And unless it was still in the blessed kerchief, Nic or Tessa had years to summon it back for redistribution.
It wasn't in a blessed hanky, if I remember correctly Harry and put them all in a Crown Royal bag..
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I don't think anything the Church does protects the coin from being summoned. What keeps Nic and Tessa (or whoever) from summoning the coin is that it wasn't their coin to summon.
I believe that because Harry could have summoned Lasciel's coin after he gave it to the Church, and if he could summon it, I don't see why Nic and Tessa couldn't summon any coin the Church had at any moment.
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I don't think anything the Church does protects the coin from being summoned. What keeps Nic and Tessa (or whoever) from summoning the coin is that it wasn't their coin to summon.
I believe that because Harry could have summoned Lasciel's coin after he gave it to the Church, and if he could summon it, I don't see why Nic and Tessa couldn't summon any coin the Church had at any moment.
I don't think it is that simple. Harry could only summon the coin, because Lasciel's shadow was inside him. I can't imagine, that one human could be inhabited by several Fallen or their shadows. So Nicodemus or any other Denarian can't have something of for example Lasciel in him to be able to summon her coin, because he is already "occupied".
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I can envision a "safety" system the Denarians use, wherein a Fallen who has a satisfactory Host nevertheless has the host surrender the coin, briefly, and plants a Shadow in someone else.
The Shadow is there to be helpful and useful, and NOT summon the Denarius... except in the event the Host dies/repents, and the Coin falls into Church hands (or otherwise becomes lost), whereupon the en-Shadowed "Safety" summons the coin back into circulation.
Then the Denarian goes to another mortal, and does it again, for another "Safety."
Then again, and again...
There's no way the Church (or anyone else) can ever really be sure they have eliminated all the "Safeties" for any of the Fallen; they are "sleepers," not active agents of the Fallen.
Safeties against their plans going awry.
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I don't think it is that simple. Harry could only summon the coin, because Lasciel's shadow was inside him. I can't imagine, that one human could be inhabited by several Fallen or their shadows. So Nicodemus or any other Denarian can't have something of for example Lasciel in him to be able to summon her coin, because he is already "occupied".
The shadow wasn't inside Harry when the Church had the coin. It's possible that anyone could summon any coin at anytime, but what would the point of collecting and hiding them be?
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I don't think anything the Church does protects the coin from being summoned.
We actually know this statement to be false. WoJ is that Cassius tried resummoning Saluriel’s coin, but the church successfully contained the Coin against it.
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It is possible the island would also prevent a coin from being summoned. It may only be the jail yard not a max security cell but it might still prevent things from being summoned off it.
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We actually know this statement to be false. WoJ is that Cassius tried resummoning Saluriel’s coin, but the church successfully contained the Coin against it.
Jim said Harry could summon it. So either the coin wasn't protected, or Harry couldn't have actually summoned it. Right?
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... or maybe Saluriel didn't WANT to go back to Cassius?
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Would YOU want to go back to him? He was already all old and used up. And he was a jerk.
There's also a question of whether or not you can even summon a Coin you've taken up and set aside. Michael seems to think there's a qualitative difference between touching one and never using it, and using it and repenting. I think it makes a bit of sense, because Sanya doesn't summon Magog's Coin to trap, right?
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I always thought, Sanya didn't summon the coin because of the temptation.
And I think the Fallen trapped in the coin has a say in if it wants to be summoned. And who it wants to connect to.
And I think the Church may have means to prevent a coin from being summoned. Maybe throw it in holy water or something like that.
The coin can be stolen though. or the protection taken away temporarily. Or it doesn't last so long so that it has to be renewed from time to time and the coin could be summoned in a state of weakened protection.
All just speculation.
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None of the above. (This isn't an original idea, others have posted this same thought years ago.) Mr. Hendricks was in the helicopter firing the minigun with Gard flying and Luccio on the winch. Marcone's bodyguard could have easily touched the coin; assuming it rolled out of Michel's bag and landed on the floor, without meaning to do so in the dark helicopter cabin. I doubt Gard would have turned on any internal lighting until after they were out of range of groundfire.
Someone once posted the reason Marcone was out of the country in Ghost Story was he had taken Mr. Hendricks to the Vatican for an exorcism or something similar. That one seemed a bit far fetched to me.
Does anyone think that no matter who picked up Thorned Namshiel's coin, Nicodemus has it now and that was the coin he was offering to Goodman Grey near the end of Skin Game? (Because, that's my guess.)
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Mab has it. Combine what Sanya tells us in small favor with what happened in Ghost Story and it seems obvious.
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I'm gonna go with Marcone has it. Just a hunch.
I like finding old threads and theories that have been revealed. Thought this one was worth reminding people of just a few short years ago.
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None of the above. (This isn't an original idea, others have posted this same thought years ago.) Mr. Hendricks was in the helicopter firing the minigun with Gard flying and Luccio on the winch. Marcone's bodyguard could have easily touched the coin; assuming it rolled out of Michel's bag and landed on the floor, without meaning to do so in the dark helicopter cabin. I doubt Gard would have turned on any internal lighting until after they were out of range of groundfire.
Someone once posted the reason Marcone was out of the country in Ghost Story was he had taken Mr. Hendricks to the Vatican for an exorcism or something similar. That one seemed a bit far fetched to me.
Does anyone think that no matter who picked up Thorned Namshiel's coin, Nicodemus has it now and that was the coin he was offering to Goodman Grey near the end of Skin Game? (Because, that's my guess.)
Yeah, if I remember correctly didn't Michael have the whole severed hand? I think it fell out in the helicopter, this was Marcone's helicopter, and was found after the fact on the floor. Also remember that coins seem to have a way of turning up where the best possible host for them will find them. I think Marcone held off on accepting it, because he did have some fear of it, but when Chicago was under attack and he stood to lose everything, he picked it up, because he felt he needed to.
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He had had the coin for some time, he merely spent some time weighing up the Pro’s and Cons (he is an expert at both) and researching the matter before touching it and putting an offer to Namshiel he couldn’t refuse.
He has an idea about his own will from not succumbing to Lara, and he genuinely hated Nicky for leaving him vulnerable and weak in a way Harry never did, and having to be rescued by Harry to boot. He wanted to do nothing which would aid Nicky quite the opposite.
I think he tracked down all available records on Namshiel, which is why he was overseas.
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I think Marcone held off on accepting it, because he did have some fear of it, but when Chicago was under attack and he stood to lose everything, he picked it up, because he felt he needed to.
I disagree that Marcone picked up Namshiel during PT/BG, I think Marcone trained with Namshiel for at least a year or two before BG. I agree that Marcone spent some time debating the pros and cons and researching before deciding to officially pick up the coin. In fact, I bet he spend some time making a formal contract with Namshiel and his abilities are at least a little reserved in order to have Macone stay in control. But there is no way that he would have worked as well as he did with Namshiel in the fight against Ethniu if that was the first time he picked up the coin.
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I disagree that Marcone picked up Namshiel during PT/BG, I think Marcone trained with Namshiel for at least a year or two before BG. I agree that Marcone spent some time debating the pros and cons and researching before deciding to officially pick up the coin. In fact, I bet he spend some time making a formal contract with Namshiel and his abilities are at least a little reserved in order to have Macone stay in control. But there is no way that he would have worked as well as he did with Namshiel in the fight against Ethniu if that was the first time he picked up the coin.
I think he may have been a shadow in Marcone's head like Lasciel was in Harry's head and training him that way. Remember Lasciel offered Harry a deal as well that they'd be partners like Anduriel and Nic.. However I don't think Marcone has had the coin all that long, he was too clumsy doing the magic.
He had had the coin for some time, he merely spent some time weighing up the Pro’s and Cons (he is an expert at both) and researching the matter before touching it and putting an offer to Namshiel he couldn’t refuse.
No, the other way around it was Namshiel doing the offering, not Marcone.
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However I don't think Marcone has had the coin all that long, he was too clumsy doing the magic.
How was he clumsy? He was able to perform advanced teleportation, create many and varying types of shields at the same time, and made concrete out of base elements. The only slightly clumsy thing he did was make the teacup top-heavy.
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I suspect that Namshiel was surprised by Marcone - Nicky had obviously been restricting him in his hosts and his time out and the information he received as Nicky didn’t trust him.
When let out for Small Favour, it was obviously in part to counter Harry, as well as to run the big spells. Nicky probably told him about a young punk wizard, and yet Harry still got the drop on him. He was probably only brought out to deal with Senior Council previously or other major magical heavy hitters.With Marcone Namshiel had access to the soulgaze Marcone had done with Harry years before, and had access to Marcone files on Harry. He was A LOT more respectful towards Harry in BG, because he considers him now to be more of a peer, and understands that it was possible for Harry to have got the drop on him (due to Nicky) Marcone gave him the information which Nicky didn’t to win Namshiels trust and turn him against Nicky.
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I expect Marcone picked up the coin after dealing with the Fomor lord.
There's being cautious and not overplaying your hand and hen there's risking your life and those of two close subordinates because you didn't use a tool that was readily available to you.
The Fomor lord made Marcone realise he needed to upgrade.