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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on August 20, 2019, 09:37:00 PM

Title: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: SerScot on August 20, 2019, 09:37:00 PM
Who or what created the Red King? 

Really, how?
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: g33k on August 20, 2019, 11:17:23 PM
I'm gonna go with Ramps being some sort of nevernever/mortal beings, straddling the line the way faeries seem to.

Their "flesh mask" is I think ectoplasmic -- the powerful ones can create anything they want, walk in the sunlight using the shade of the flesh mask, etc.  A basic ability with it seems to be inherent/inate/instinctual.

At the same time, they leave behind remains, like the Gruffs did in Michael's yard (one of the confirming "yes, fae" bits of evidence).

I'm betting that something Ramp-like could infect other creatures, too... Maybe the "UberGhouls" that assaulted the Raith Deeps were Ramp'ed ordinary ghouls?  I mean... probably they were just prehistoric "Dire" ghouls, but maybe not!

I think the Ramps can live in the nevernever indefinitely, and without needing a host / flesh mask.  I'd be willing to believe Jim has some Ramps stashed away in the Deep Nevernever -- they'd have been immune to the bloodline curse.

To answer the OP-query... I think the 1st Ramp was probably summoned, and fed a sacrifice... and just stayed to eat more.  Maybe the summoner screwed up, and couldn't return it; maybe the summoner was the "more" it stayed to eat!

Note that "2nd meal" represents a permanence-condition for the Ramps...
 
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Con on August 21, 2019, 02:24:51 AM
Paranet Papers offers the most conclusive canon story of the Red Courts origins and rise to power.

(click to show/hide)

So the oirginal Lord of Outer Night were vampires/sorcerers who fed on Old Gods thereby gaining their power.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Yuillegan on August 21, 2019, 05:21:14 AM
Thank you Con, that is most interesting! I did remember reading something about how the Red Court Leeched from a tribe of gods, but couldn't remember where.

However, that actually only explains how the Lords of the Outer Night became gods/godlings. It doesn't explain the origins of the Court, as that passage implies the Red Court existed and were active and dangerous around that time - they had previously conquered the Mayans and then went after the Incas. Presumably they also conquered the Aztecs and the Olmecs and all the others.

So the original vampires of the Red Court, including the Thirteen who became the LoON and the Red King, where did they come from? Ariana seems to imply it was the Red King himself. If so, what was he originally? A man who became demonic, or a demon that emulated a man? Something of both I suspect.

I have a long standing theory that all Vampires come from the Outside. But have to change in order to stay. There is no supporting evidence for this, only speculation. But consider all Vampires are leeches - life energy or blood (life energy in physical form perhaps?) - and all of them prey exclusively on Mortals, specifically humans. Whilst some of them seem to be able to feed on other things (such as animals) they don't seem to prey in immortals much. But they can - as evidenced by the Paranet Papers. Vampires feature more heavily than any other supernatural race or threat, except maybe Faeries. I suspect this due to their significance in the series.

The Red Court are probably the oldest, although I suspect the Jade Court could give them a run for their money. Both Courts could well be several thousand years old, appearing perhaps 2000BC. If the Jade Court don't think the whole Qin (Chin) thing is going to work out (as Jim often says) which began approx. 200BC, they could be very old indeed as Xia dynasty (the first dynasty of the area that became known as China) begins around 2070BC.

So I suspect they appeared all around the same time: as humanity developed civilisation (around 3000BC or so). Whilst many cultures had been around at this point for some time in China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, Australia etc. Civilisation first seems to crop up around 3000BC approx. A significant event in human history, though the degree depends on whether Jim is including a Creation event in his timeline (we are dealing with Angels and Gods etc). Anyway, I suspect while plenty of supernatural things had been around (such as the Old Ones and Outsiders), some were just getting started. So the early Gods (who became the Old Gods) were probably around in various forms and names, and the survivors quite probably went into new cultures and adopted new masks (which became Mantles), as the Paranet Papers implies. The Fae probably were not around - there wasn't a hell of a lot going on in Ireland or Europe for that matter.

So the vampire creation starts around here. If they were merely hungry creatures from the Nevernever, drawn to humanity that might make sense. But I think some of corrupted humanity may well have sought out the Outsiders for power, and in order to sustain their terrible power and immortality they had to feed off the rest humankind. Outsiders hate humanity. Not just creation, although that is part of it, but they seem to not only want to obliterate everything but enjoy making mankind suffer. They like getting us to turn on each other and ourselves. Remember, the Outsiders were Inside once before and ruled the planet but did NOT destroy it. They tortured humanity first. Why? No idea. But I suspect this is why Vampires must feed.

Everything we know about Vampires tells us their very existence is an affront to Free Will. In order to become a Vampire, you must kill someone. In order to stay powerful and sane, you must continue to feed. The more you do the more you want to kill. But the act of becoming a full vampire is a Choice in most cases (BCV are the exception - but more on that soon). Reds turn their victims half-way, but the victim must kill someone for the full transformation. White Court are born as the offspring of a WCV and a mortal, but also must kill someone during their feed to become a full WCV. We know almost nothing about Jade, but if they are anything like the Chinese vampires, they also feed on life force (and I imagine a kill is necessary). They all seem to be able to mind-control mortals. WCV use sex and feeding to control their victims. Reds use some sort of eye-induced control, plus their highly narcotic saliva. BCVs use flat out mind control and can even push their power into a mortal human or animal and turn them into a nastier, rabid monster. Once turned, all vampires seem to have very little Choice left. Including self-determination of what they will be (this could be linked with Naming). WCV (maybe because they are relatively new, only showing up around 900BC) seemed to have developed traits that allow them to disguise effectively from mortals and get close, and as such are weaker than other vampires (unless they draw upon their limited reserves of power) but can cross thresholds. Reds seem to be slowed, but can push through (but leave a chunk of their power at the door). BCV cannot cross at all. So I think this all could point to the similarities with Outsiders.

I think Black Court Vampires are different for a few reasons. They are the newest having only been created 600 years ago, and come directly from something truly awful (Drakul). Drakul seems to be a hell of a lot stronger than the Red King and his Lords, or the White King (assuming Lord Raith is the original White King). Also though, the BCV turn their victims directly (their victims never have to Choose to kill to become a BCV). This might be something to do with their heavy association with Necromancy. Perhaps in order to turn a victim, you have to drain it dry and then bury it in it native soil (like in the myths) and then they are 'resurrected' no longer really the person they were before. But I think as Vlad Dracula botched the ritual of turning himself into the first Black Court Vampire, he was subsequently more vulnerable than the others too despite the massive strength he got. And he removed the Choice to become a BCV, it is made for you when you are their victim. Real question is why Dracula did it at all - considering he was Drakul's son, as a Scion he should have been more than strong enough already when he Chose. Perhaps he wanted more, perhaps he only Chose after he died. Either way, Drakul wasn't impressed with the result. Perhaps Drakul has been the one creating the vampires all this time, hence why he wasn't especially impressed with Dracula's poor attempt.

Anyway, back to the Reds. The original myth of Kulkulcan is that he is a boy that was born a snake and grew too big. Maybe that is similar to the Red King - perhaps he was the first mutant of his kind. And then he fed on the real Kulkulkan or whichever god. Or perhaps he made a deal with something hideous, or was possessed. Perhaps he was something horrible that entered the mortal plane.

The really interesting thing is of course, is what were the original gods? Wizards with pretending to be gods, perhaps with no restriction on Power? Perhaps they were another species that fed on the beliefs and worship of humans? Perhaps something else all together?

Of course, "Vampire" could just be a category like mammals or even animals, where the beings are all somewhat similar but their origins are completely different. Still though, the fact they are all Courts and have similar characteristics is intriguing and suggests a shared origin.

Great topic Ser Scot!
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: toodeep on August 21, 2019, 01:49:59 PM
I have long thought that all the vampires were created by a human wizard making a deal with a spirit from the never never.  The only differences between them have to do with what kind of spirit and the terms of the deal.

White court - Obviously the wizard made the best deal.  Gets connected to a hunger spirit, but gains power over others, strength, health and immortality? 

Red - made a deal with some kind of hunter spirit (per the erlking's term for them) but made it poorly.  Was probably aiming for all the advantages of a half vampire (which is really similar to a white court) but obviously messed up and the spirit becomes the more dominant partner in the relationship once they kill.

Black - I suspect this was a bad idea by a wizard driven to grief by the death of a loved one who figured magic and a deal was a way to "bring them back."  Tied a spirit of some kind to the dead body of a loved one and got a lot more than they bargained for.  Maybe they made a deal with a spirit for themselves to come back when they died, but that seems unlikely, since most people want to skip the dying part...

This, of course, would mean that the originator of the red and the white court were probably powerful wizards, and probably an early black court vampire was too.  But it seems likely they might have gone a bit crazy or not really understood how to use their new powers (or their weaknesses, i.e. sunlight) so they might have died "young" though obviously only after starting their prospective vampire clan.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Maz on August 21, 2019, 03:16:54 PM
The Black Court we have definitive proof (Word of Jim) that it originated with the son of Drakul, Vlad Dracula.  Drakul was something inhuman trapped in a human form and Vlad was his scion who created himself as a Black Court vampire in an attempt to win the approval of his Father. It apparently involved Outsiders.

The White Court appears to possibly originate from Etruscan civilization (pre-Rome Italy).  Based on their ability to sire human children suggests they are biologically human with a parasitic hunter creature (apparently some form of Phage) from the NeverNever in symbiosis with them.  This would suggest that a progenitor in that area used some form of magic to bind with it for extended life and/or power and thus began the Court.

The Red Court appears to be very similar to the White Court except with a South American slant and instead of being similar to Phages they appear to be creatures that feed on Blood instead of emotions / psychic energy.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: g33k on August 21, 2019, 07:32:07 PM
Quote from: Maz on August 21, 2019, 03:16:54 PM
The Black Court ...
Yep, explicitly WOJ'ed.

Quote from: Maz on August 21, 2019, 03:16:54 PM
The White Court appears to possibly originate from Etruscan civilization (pre-Rome Italy).  Based on their ability to sire human children suggests they are biologically human with a parasitic hunter creature (apparently some form of Phage) from the NeverNever in symbiosis with them.  This would suggest that a progenitor in that area used some form of magic to bind with it for extended life and/or power and thus began the Court.
  Speculative, but seems entirely reasonable/likely.  Also note that a "baby" WCV (a "White Court Virgin") has a chance to burn away their Hunger-phage if their first act of sex is also an act of "True Love."

Quote from: Maz on August 21, 2019, 03:16:54 PM
The Red Court appears to be very similar to the White Court except with a South American slant and instead of being similar to Phages they appear to be creatures that feed on Blood instead of emotions / psychic energy.
They really are dis-similar.  The Red's "Half-Vamp" stage is similar, in that they are evidently still human and their Vamp part can still be separated (according to Lea and to Mother Winter; and fae cannot lie).

It's like the Red is a magical larva / parasite:  once it gets the host to take a life, the Red metamorphoses into a full-Vamp, and "eats" its host.

After that full-Turn to Vamp, they aren't human any more.  Their natural form isn't human (q.v. the Ramp-corpses Butters got from the fire at Bianca's), they summon a "flesh mask" to cover their real self, etc.
 
The Whamp "Hunger" demon is more symbiote, the host never stops being (biologically) Human, and their basic ecology is psychic/mental/emotional, not physical.

A Ramp can infect a human, feed another human to the half-Ramp, and get a new Ramp... all in the space of a single night; the magic is much more physical, more overt, and involves the "death" of the human host.
 
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on August 21, 2019, 07:34:48 PM
@Yuillegan: I've always assumed that Lord Raith isn't the first White King. I have no evidence or argument for this. Just something I've always assumed.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: kbrizzle on August 22, 2019, 02:18:04 AM
My WAG is that the vampire courts are a series of attempts to contravene the natural order of things in the DV. As Yuillegan points out, all the vampire courts abrogate free will & life in general. I think it’s also a little telling that all the courts refer to humans as chattel - it seems likely that the courts were created in an attempt to subjugate humanity & bend the free will available to mortals to nefarious ends.

I would guess that someone like the Outsider-allied if not flat out Nfected Drakul is behind these attempts - why else would Vlad try to create a new type of vampire in an attempt to please his dad?

If you look at the 3 courts we’ve been presented with (since we know almost nothing about the Jade court), they create an interesting if troubling pattern.

White Court vamps are closest to humans - they can even pass for human in front of a wizard without a lot of experience/ using Sight. They can procreate like humans but unable to create more of their kind quickly; don’t have obvious weaknesses etc but don’t have the commensurate strength to with it. They can also through fate/ luck/ free will choose to not become one & remain mortal. It is interesting that we don’t see any sorcerous Whamps in the series, I wonder if they are capable of wielding magic beyond what is natural to their kind. They also use the emotional spectrum to manipulate human.

Red Court vamps are further removed from humanity. They no longer have a human form; being half-turned is a thing, if irreversible; they are able to wield magic & use the same spectrum of un-life power that the Blamps use. They use their venom as a way to physically addict humans to manipulate them.

Black Court vamps are further removed still - while the other 2 types are still technically alive, I don’t think Blamps are in the same sense. They are the most powerful - able to wield black magic & physically stronger than the other 2 types. There is no half-turned Blamp - the process goes the whole way. They are also the newest vampires. They flat out use heavy handed mind control to manipulate humans.

It seems to me that whoever is behind these attempts continuously trades humanity for more power. I wouldn’t be surprised if Whamps are the oldest kind of vampires, given that the Etruscans pre-date the Romans. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Whamps pre-date even them - after all, wizards pre-date the White Council which uses Latin as it’s Court language. I also doubt that Lord Raith is the first White King - no one else refers to him as the progenitor of their court, like they do the Red King. We have some speculation within the series that the Red King is ~4000 years old & the Blamps are ~600 years old.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on August 22, 2019, 04:27:00 AM
Wamps can use magic. Thomas uses a tracking spell in his short story. Jim has stated that Wamp that had strong magical talents couldn't be White Council level, but would be able to do some really weird things with their Hunger.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on August 22, 2019, 09:08:36 AM
I don't know what the origin of the Red Court is, but I think it's important to note that there has been some retconning done on the Red Court since they were first discussed and introduced. 

In Storm Front it's stated that vampires have a difficult time just maintaining themselves on the mortal plane of reality, they are really creatures of the Nevernever.  This was used to explain why they can't cross a threshold uninvited.  This idea was first ignored and quickly discarded.  In Grave Peril, Harry wasn't afraid looking into Bianca's eyes and sharing a soulgaze because "vampires don't have souls."  However, in Ghost Story we found out that trains to hell were working overtime right after Harry wiped out the Red Court, so scratch another early description of Red Court vamps.

So if there's any conflicting information on the Red Court, I would go with latest info, whether it's from Q&A's Jim has done over the years or in the notes of the Dresden Files game.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: isoycrazy on August 22, 2019, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: Yuillegan on August 21, 2019, 05:21:14 AM
White Court are born as the offspring of a WCV and a mortal, but also must kill someone during their feed to become a full WCV.

Objection.  Connie Barrowill from the Bigfoot trilogy is a full White Court vampire because her power awakened in her first sexual encounter with Irwin.  The fact he doesn't die doesn't mean she isn't, biologically, now a Whamp.  It meant, as her father feared, she could be seen as inadequate.  She became one of them without actually finishing her kill.  She "failed" finishing this "sacred" first act of Whamp-hood.

But her healthy relationship with Irwin and his strong life force does show in universe a vampire feeding on the life force of a non-human.  It could be she becomes a lot stronger more quickly because of Irwin's healthy life force, like the paranet papers saying some ancient reds fed on the blood of gods.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on August 22, 2019, 03:31:48 PM
Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on August 22, 2019, 09:08:36 AM
However, in Ghost Story we found out that trains to hell were working overtime right after Harry wiped out the Red Court, so scratch another early description of Red Court vamps.

How big is the time frame "lately," when does Dresden show up on the tracks, and where is the boarding point? Even if the answers to these questions was such that it supported the proposition that Red's could be on board, doesn't necessitate that conclusion. All the half turned died, Eb killed hundreds of mercenaries who were overseeing ritual sacrifices, violence erupted globally immediately. Southbound trains would have increased business either way.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Just Al on August 22, 2019, 04:50:56 PM
Quote from: Con on August 21, 2019, 02:24:51 AM
Paranet Papers offers the most conclusive canon story of the Red Courts origins and rise to power.

(click to show/hide)

So the oirginal Lord of Outer Night were vampires/sorcerers who fed on Old Gods thereby gaining their power.

I think the author has conflated the Inca with the Aztec. While the Inca worshipped their Kings as gods, they didn't preform human sacrifice. They were also thousands of miles away. Substitute Aztec and the explanation makes sense.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: g33k on August 22, 2019, 05:36:52 PM
Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on August 22, 2019, 09:08:36 AM
...  However, in Ghost Story we found out that trains to hell were working overtime right after Harry wiped  out the Red Court, so scratch another early description of Red Court vamps ...

Can you quote or cite, please?  I don't recall this; at least, not in this way.

There were a large number of half-turned (still human) proto-Ramp's.  I presume they had souls, and -- if they were ticketed for a Southbound Train -- would've contributed.

Similarly, there were a bunch of purely-human servants, and useful tools protected from enemies, who likely were doing pretty direly "sinful" stuff; and when the Ramp-protection expired... so did they.

Last but not least, the power-vacuum undoubtedly lead to innumerable acts of violence and murder as various parties tried to grab portions of the Red's holdings... creating yet more work on the Southbound line.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on August 22, 2019, 06:56:41 PM
"'Southbound trains are running pretty quick lately.' he said, looking down at me. 'I figured you probably didn't want to hook up with that one, mister man.'"
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: kbrizzle on August 23, 2019, 05:01:51 AM
Quote from: g33k on August 22, 2019, 05:36:52 PM
There were a large number of half-turned (still human) proto-Ramp's.  I presume they had souls, and -- if they were ticketed for a Southbound Train -- would've contributed.

Similarly, there were a bunch of purely-human servants, and useful tools protected from enemies, who likely were doing pretty direly "sinful" stuff; and when the Ramp-protection expired... so did they.

Last but not least, the power-vacuum undoubtedly lead to innumerable acts of violence and murder as various parties tried to grab portions of the Red's holdings... creating yet more work on the Southbound line.
While it’s not explicitly stated in the books (so far anyway), I believe you need to have a soul in order to perform a death curse. Iirc Eb specifically asks Harry how he’s going to deal with Mavra’s death curse in BR. So this implies that all vamps have souls.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Yuillegan on August 23, 2019, 05:12:56 AM
Bad Alias & Kbrizzle: Whilst BA and I have no hard evidence that Lord Raith is the first Wamp, he seems a helluva lot stronger than the next Wamp. Lara never would have tried such an overt assault had he been at full strength, and he was almost completely drained. He certainly fits the description that Jim talked about (if a Wamp had strong sorcerer-level powers). He had his 'Kiss of Death' move, a one shot feeding move. Very dangerous in close-quaters. I imagine before Margaret stymied his ability to feed, he would have generally had a big reserve tank of energy (which he likely replenished often). He seemed to have extensive knowledge and powers that his rivals seemed unable to match. None of which make him the oldest, but we really haven't seen or heard of anyone in the White Court coming close. Plus his apparent immunity to magic (even from the Blackstaff - that is incredibly significant, that we haven't even met any other being who is so protected - including the ALL the Faerie Queens i.e. even the Mothers). Whilst Uriel seems to ignore the normal rules a lot of the time, we cannot be sure even he is so protected. So I think that even if he isn't the progenitor of his race, it hardly matters. There is a reason why he became the White King, and the others didn't. I imagine he is one of the oldest at any rate. The White Court is very Darwinian, they don't let threats survive. Rather like humanity - they don't rush to punch everything in the nose that is dangerous to them. They find the appropriate tools and learn as much as they can about their foes. Then they trap or kill them. There is a very good reason why they are still around, and the Reds and the Black Court (who might be overtly stronger), are not.

Kbrizzle: I pretty much agree with everything your saying there. My only point of contention is that the Whites are the oldest. The "Cradle of Civilisation" exists in a lot of places, but Italy isn't one. South America, particularly Peru and Norte Chico, are far older appearing between 4700-3200BC (roughly 5-7000 years old) whereas the Estruscans appeared roughly after 900BC.  Which makes a lot of sense in a way. The Red Court, whilst highly organised and hierarchical, is a theocracy. The White Court is much like the Ancient Romans, with great Houses and Nobles, and a nominal King or Emperor ruling over - a Monarchy. The Whites are more overtly refined and subtle (though not necessarily more complex) than the Reds who are more aggressive and savage. They seem to reflect the periods they may have risen in, just as much as the surrounding culture and area that they came from. The fact that they predate the White Council is not that surprising, considering Merlin would have existed not much earlier than 500C.E. which is 1400 years later...and Merlin formed the White Council. But yes, the Red King is probably at least 4000 years old, if not quite a bit older. He and the Lords of the Outer Night are in a different league to the Whites in terms of raw power. Probably why the Blamps were so hated is they became a significant, if not one of the most significant, Powers in the space of a few decades and/or centuries when normally it takes a few millennia to become a major player and it scared the crap out of everyone.

KurtinStGeorge: Yes the constant retconning does make it hard to keep up, but the normal rule as you say is to go with the most recent information. It does make sense of course that Jim would change a few minor details, as he gets older and better as a writer he can see better and more interesting paths to take, and ones that will create less problems. I don't mind a lot of the changes he has made by and large as most have been necessary and for the better. I would love a sort of Q&A answer that tidied up the plot holes and inconsistencies, but I am just being lazy. You can fix those problems if you think about it. For instance, it might be that the Reds ARE creatures of the Nevernever and have trouble with threshholds (like all magical creatures) but they also have work arounds (like Wizards), AND soul gazes aren't likely as they don't have what HARRY would call a soul, but have *something* that remains of their original soul and of course have their hypnotic stare ability. It is even hinted and somewhat discussed that a Soul isn't merely one thing but more a collection of things, and how you define, interact, gain or lose it is highly complex and doesn't always fall into the magic system that Harry understands. So there is actually quite a bit of wriggle room left.

isoycrazy: Thanks for the heads up, I haven't read Bigfoot yet! But I think, as you speculate yourself, that perhaps she wasn't as inclined to kill him not just because of True Love (which would have killed her demon), but perhaps because she was feeding on a non-human mortal that was probably a bigger meal magically speaking. I also imagine it is exceedingly rare, to the point that Thomas seemed certain that the first feeding was always fatal. Also you will notice apart from Connie, no other Wamp has been mentioned as being in this category (past or present). Shame, fear and perhaps survival all might play there part in that. Which of course shows the gap in Thomas' knowledge (and could also be a retcon/rewrite of Jim's) but essentially means that without killing your first feed, the chances of becoming a full-blown White Court Vampire are very very slim. Which also lends itself nicely to the idea of mortals and choice, in that you as a mortal can still subvert the normal rules with your choices in ways the more supernatural creatures find difficult. Choosing to feed and not kill? Would definitely make you an unusual vampire to say the least. I wonder what effects that would have?

Just Al: Quite possibly, but not necessarily. The time frame doesn't work as well if it were Aztecs. Although as that passage also mentions, this story is quite possibly somewhat apocryphal and a mix of half-truths and fantasies. The main point is that the Reds captured a bunch of scary Gods, and the LoON and the Red King fed on them. Interestingly, that Paranet Papers update discusses that those Gods were still alive when the Reds were destroyed, and might be making a come back.

Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on August 23, 2019, 03:26:30 PM
Lord Raith killed his brother by throwing him out of an airplane, suggesting he only killed him within the past 100 years or so. Why would he kill him only recently? He has plenty of other family members in House Raith, suggesting a founder several generations back.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Yuillegan on August 24, 2019, 04:55:51 AM
Well most of the Red King's family was still around before the end of the Reds...so why would Lord Raith's family members being alive be so strange? When it comes to immortals (in the eternal youth/no dying of old age sense - not godlike sense) I think they do their best NOT to get killed. Giving up Eternity is a big thing. There have probably been many attempts to kill Lord Raith over the decades and centuries...but why risk direct combat where you might lose when you can keep throwing dangerous enemies at them whilst maintaining your life and plausible deniability? The White King killed his brother as he was gaining too much power and became a real threat. Perhaps he wasn't before that. Although the fact Lord Raith HAS a brother does indicate somewhat that they had a sire...whoever that was. But the idea that just because he has family still alive today which makes him not old enough to be at least one of the originals, if not the original, doesn't really work with immortals. I mean Lara Raith is over 2 centuries old, whereas Thomas is maybe 10 years at most older than Harry. That could be 150 years between siblings. Harry's mother could have almost been 100 when she had him. His Grandfather is 250 years older. So I wouldn't get too hung up on how relatively recent things happened, and which family members are alive.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on August 24, 2019, 07:53:49 AM
His extended family being around and vampires points to a vampire progenitor of House Raith that isn't Lord Raith. His vampire brother points to a shared vampire ancestor. The other houses indicate other progenitors of houses. However, they could be Raith's decedents who changed feeding methods and split off from house Raith, but that would make his emphasis on family odd.

I think all this makes for a fairly strong case that he isn't the first WCV. Now, even if he isn't the first WCV, he could be the first White Court King.

The way I see his brother's murder going down is that his brother helped him take the throne and consolidate his power. Once he consolidated his power, he started in on potential rivals, like his brother. This might also be where he started killing his sons. This sort of thing isn't too uncommon in crime families, dictatorships, and monarchies.

On the other hand, he may have killed his brother after Margaret cursed him because he was vulnerable.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Con on August 24, 2019, 07:55:06 AM
Where are you getting Papa Raith killing his brother?
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on August 24, 2019, 07:59:10 AM
I don't recall where, but it's mentioned that he went "sky diving without a parachute." I think I have the quote right. It is heavily implied that it was Papa's doing. Something like he "arranged for him to go sky diving without a parachute."
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on August 24, 2019, 08:11:12 AM
I can't seem to find it or a source citing where to find it, but I did find a couple of refrences to it on tvtropes. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/TheDresdenFilesTheVampires (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/TheDresdenFilesTheVampires)

Quote
Cain and Abel: Sent Madrigal and Madeleine's father skydiving without a parachute.
Quote
Make It Look Like an Accident: Like all the Whites, his preferred method of dealing with people.
...
His brother died in a parachuting accident he had nothing to do with either.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Vodyanoy on August 24, 2019, 01:51:50 PM
The Madrigal's father going skydiving without a parachute was in Proven Guilty, it comes up when they're talking about how Madrigal ended up with the Jann.

Quote
Thomas nodded. 'Scion of a djinn and a mortal. He worked for Madrigal's father. Then my father arranged to have Madrigal's father go skydiving naked. Glau stuck with Madrigal after that.'

Not sure of the hard copy page no. since I've only got the DF books through ibooks.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on August 24, 2019, 05:24:00 PM
I was searching for "parachute."
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: kbrizzle on August 25, 2019, 05:52:17 PM
Quote from: Yuillegan on August 23, 2019, 05:12:56 AM
Bad Alias & Kbrizzle: Whilst BA and I have no hard evidence that Lord Raith is the first Wamp, he seems a helluva lot stronger than the next Wamp. Lara never would have tried such an overt assault had he been at full strength, and he was almost completely drained. He certainly fits the description that Jim talked about (if a Wamp had strong sorcerer-level powers). He had his 'Kiss of Death' move, a one shot feeding move. Very dangerous in close-quaters. I imagine before Margaret stymied his ability to feed, he would have generally had a big reserve tank of energy (which he likely replenished often). He seemed to have extensive knowledge and powers that his rivals seemed unable to match. None of which make him the oldest, but we really haven't seen or heard of anyone in the White Court coming close. Plus his apparent immunity to magic (even from the Blackstaff - that is incredibly significant, that we haven't even met any other being who is so protected - including the ALL the Faerie Queens i.e. even the Mothers). Whilst Uriel seems to ignore the normal rules a lot of the time, we cannot be sure even he is so protected. So I think that even if he isn't the progenitor of his race, it hardly matters. There is a reason why he became the White King, and the others didn't. I imagine he is one of the oldest at any rate. The White Court is very Darwinian, they don't let threats survive. Rather like humanity - they don't rush to punch everything in the nose that is dangerous to them. They find the appropriate tools and learn as much as they can about their foes. Then they trap or kill them. There is a very good reason why they are still around, and the Reds and the Black Court (who might be overtly stronger), are not.

Kbrizzle: I pretty much agree with everything your saying there. My only point of contention is that the Whites are the oldest. The "Cradle of Civilisation" exists in a lot of places, but Italy isn't one. South America, particularly Peru and Norte Chico, are far older appearing between 4700-3200BC (roughly 5-7000 years old) whereas the Estruscans appeared roughly after 900BC.  Which makes a lot of sense in a way. The Red Court, whilst highly organised and hierarchical, is a theocracy. The White Court is much like the Ancient Romans, with great Houses and Nobles, and a nominal King or Emperor ruling over - a Monarchy. The Whites are more overtly refined and subtle (though not necessarily more complex) than the Reds who are more aggressive and savage. They seem to reflect the periods they may have risen in, just as much as the surrounding culture and area that they came from. The fact that they predate the White Council is not that surprising, considering Merlin would have existed not much earlier than 500C.E. which is 1400 years later...and Merlin formed the White Council. But yes, the Red King is probably at least 4000 years old, if not quite a bit older. He and the Lords of the Outer Night are in a different league to the Whites in terms of raw power. Probably why the Blamps were so hated is they became a significant, if not one of the most significant, Powers in the space of a few decades and/or centuries when normally it takes a few millennia to become a major player and it scared the crap out of everyone.
Well we don’t really know how strong the progenitor of the Whamps would be. We do know that Lord Raith has a vast library of arcane knowledge & was adept at using it to further his own goals - perhaps the reason he was so disproportionately powerful compared to other Whamps is because he is magically enhanced? We do know about his magical immunity & suspect it comes from the Outside.

Separately, by the time of WN we see that the other Whamp nobles are openly insulting the White King (calling him “weak & aged” & accusing him of allowing opportunities to “slip through his impotent fingers” etc.) - I don’t think they would be that brazenly insulting against the progenitor of their court.
Lord Raith explicitly points out to Lara at the end of BR that the White Court does not follow the leader of House Raith, rather the White King/ Queen is an earned position. This also implies that House Raith is not the progenitor of their court & that perhaps in the past House Raith was not always in power.
Also, as Harry states in WN, Whamps are supposed to live for centuries - they are not immortal, just extremely long-lived (perhaps because they are so close to humans unlike Ramps or Blamps). So I don’t know why Lord Raith would be considered particularly old. IIRC in BR when Harry & Thomas are walking through the gallery of Raith Sr.’s brood mares, they seem to start in the 15-16th century. If Lord Raith were really ~2000-3000+ years old, I would expect him to start having kids a lot sooner.

None of the major powers of the mortal world in the DV can be protected by something with its origins in the Outside... We know that Outsiders in general are incredibly hard to fight & their magic is almost alien in nature. The only wizards who seem to be effective against them are Rashid, Langtry & Starborn Harry. I wouldn’t be surprised if Uriel or the Sidhe royalty could also deal some damage to Outsiders in a fight. None of the people I’ve mentioned outside of Harry seem to have much of an interest in Lord Raith, so I doubt they fought him. Even at his peak, I wouldn’t like his chances with any of them (perhaps he could take out the Ladies).
Also remember that Lord Raith’s Outsider protection is only magical - it doesn’t protect him from physical attacks. Like Harry almost does in BR, a sufficiently powerful adversary could beat Lord Raith to death despite his protections (hard to do as that would be).

Regarding your point about the Whamps being younger than the Reds: By your logic, Etruscans started their civilization almost 3000 years ago, making the Whamps about that old. I don’t see how a 1000 year difference would make the Whamps particularly more civilized than the Ramps.
Instead my explanation as to why the Whamp hierarchy & customs are the way they are is because they are the closest to humans - sorta like why the Sidhe are much more similar to humans than the other kinds of Fae (they are closest to humans).
Also my point was that wizards predate the White Council, so Latin being their court language doesn’t make wizardry 1500 years old. Similarly just because the Whamps use Etruscan, doesn’t mean that they don’t predate that civilization.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Yuillegan on October 03, 2019, 07:40:55 AM
Just found an old WOJ that says that Lord Raith is several thousand years old, and has 2 thousand year of paranoia built up.

I would say that even if he isn't the oldest or progenitor, he is probably pretty close.

Quote
How old is Lord Raith?
He’s a couple thousand years old.  He’s got 2 thousand years of paranoia kinda built up.  Plus he’s been absolutely bonkers the past 30 years or so.  He’s hardly functional as a vampire, he’s getting to where he’s not evne functional as a figure head for much longer.  That’s going to be a problem for lara to deal with.
Will we find out about Lord Raith’s library?
There’s kind of a long game going on in the Dresden Files, and Lord Raith has been involved in it in the last couple of cycle’s it’s gone on.  He’s been trying to educate himself about it, and he meant to be a player in it this time it came around, but getting involved with Margret kind of screwed him over.
Lara’s got his library now and knows everything he knows, which explains a lot of her actions.
https://youtu.be/4Gmu76ritoQ?t=2510
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on October 03, 2019, 03:16:56 PM
Since the language of the White Court is Etruscan, I'd assume that the Court was founded in the Etruscan civilization which was from 900 B.C. to 300 B.C. according to Wikipedia. Unless Jim meant Raith is literally a couple of thousand years old, his statement is vague enough that we can't say for certain that Raith was around during the Etruscan civilization, but we can't say he wasn't either.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Yuillegan on October 04, 2019, 02:17:44 AM
My point really is that 1) He is probably the oldest White Court vampire. Power and rank do seem closely aligned with seniority in the supernatural world. 2) The Red King is almost certainly older, and so is the Red Court.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: kbrizzle on October 04, 2019, 02:34:59 AM
@ Yuillegan
Fair enough about Raith Sr.’s age, although if Raith is indeed the progenitor of the entire White Court, why do other Houses like Skavis & Malvora even exist? It’s not like there were Ramps who didn’t drink blood (the ones who were able to refrain were only half-turned).

It would make more sense that the Whamp Elders like Lord Skavis, Lady Cheserina & Lord Raith were the Whamp version of LoONs to the actual progenitor (who is likely dead or ‘contained’).
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Yuillegan on October 04, 2019, 08:34:20 AM
Kbrizzle - I am not married to the idea of Lord Raith being the progenitor. I like your analogy about the LoON to the Leaders of the Houses. Fits as well as anything else. Although it doesn't explain why the Red and Black Courts.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Con on October 06, 2019, 06:45:12 AM
Keep in mind that Lara and Thomas are both venatores which basically makes them enemies of most elder God's like the LoON. Hell they even tried too take out the get despite Winters importance of the Outer Gates.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Yuillegan on October 06, 2019, 10:39:47 PM
LoON are not in fact, Elder Gods. They are hinted at being very old Vampires feeding on some other dark gods that they imprisoned. They did probably not knowing Winter's importance...although one wonders if that would even have stopped Winter fulfilling its duties. Hampered certainly, as they would be limited in replacing troops, but they could just continue operations from their side of the Never-never.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: kbrizzle on October 07, 2019, 04:26:38 AM
@Yuillegan
I’ve already stated my theory on the origin of the vampire courts - I believe that whoever created them had an agenda of subjugating humanity & tried a couple of different techniques in different parts (Whamps in Europe & Ramps in South America) of the world to see which one works better.

We know that the Blamps were created by Dracula in an attempt to impress his father, Drakul - this makes Drakul the likely candidate for creating the other 2 courts. How else would the statement about Dracula make sense?
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Arjan on October 07, 2019, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: Yuillegan on October 06, 2019, 10:39:47 PM
LoON are not in fact, Elder Gods. They are hinted at being very old Vampires feeding on some other dark gods that they imprisoned. They did probably not knowing Winter's importance...although one wonders if that would even have stopped Winter fulfilling its duties. Hampered certainly, as they would be limited in replacing troops, but they could just continue operations from their side of the Never-never.

Directly contradicted by vadderung himself in Changes:

Quote
"What you must understand is that you face beings such as I in this battle."
I frowned. "You mean . . . gods?"
"Mostly retired gods, at any rate," Vadderung said. "Once, entire civilizations bowed to them. Now they are venerated by only a handful, the power of their blood spread out among thousands of offspring. But in the Lords of Outer Night, even the remnants of that power are more than you can face as you are."

The mayan gods still have a considerable following but as far as I know do not get human sacrifices anymore.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Yuillegan on October 07, 2019, 01:37:17 PM
Arjan see the parameters papers for what I am referring to.

They are God's, but not Elder God's. A small but important distinction. They inherited their power from the real thing, and usurped their position.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: morriswalters on October 07, 2019, 02:12:59 PM
Are the Paranet Papers canon?
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Arjan on October 07, 2019, 06:06:27 PM
Quote from: morriswalters on October 07, 2019, 02:12:59 PM
Are the Paranet Papers canon?
Depends who you ask. I see them as valuable but not necessarily true. They are basically stories written down by Harry's friends. The story about the red courts origin might not be true.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: dspringer1 on October 08, 2019, 12:21:11 AM
We know very little about the origin of Red Court.

We know the original group of red court vampires was very small - but not one person.  It was stated that most of the red court was descended from the Red King, but clearly some were "not of the blood".  Although I suppose there could have been an originator red court vamp that died and his first children split into bloodlines.   Hard to tell. 

We know from the statements of Karin when a Knight (aka - an archangel speaking using her voice) that the Red Court in some way usurped the true gods who once operated in this area.   Not clear if they seemly assumed the identity or consumed the old gods or something else.  But whatever they did really pissed off the archangel. 

It is not clear if individuals closer (blood wise) to the Red King are more powerful than vampires with more intermediate vampires in their bloodline (aka - more generations in between).   All we know is that the Red King was the most powerful of the Red Court Vamps.   

We know that older vampires sometimes lose control as it was stated in changes.  Presumably this puts some cap on the max possible age of a vampire before they lose control.  But details were pretty skimpy.

We have the WOJ that speaks to the origin of the red court, but that is more allegory than something filled with specific details. 
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: morriswalters on October 08, 2019, 02:21:52 AM
Quote from: dspringer1 on October 08, 2019, 12:21:11 AM
We know from the statements of Karin when a Knight (aka - an archangel speaking using her voice) that the Red Court in some way usurped the true gods who once operated in this area.   Not clear if they seemly assumed the identity or consumed the old gods or something else.  But whatever they did really pissed off the archangel.
Not quite.
Quote
“False gods!” she cried, her blue eyes blazing as she stared at the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night. “Pretenders! Usurpers of truth! Destroyers of faith, of families, of lives, of children! For your crimes against the Mayans, against the peoples of the world, now will you answer! Your time has come! Face judgment Almighty!”
By the text  the Red King was the progenitor, otherwise the bloodline curse wouldn't have exterminated the Reds to a monster.  JB goes all Abrahamic  with that bit.  The White God is a jealous God.  However it may be that the Lords of the Outer Knight themselves would have survived the curse had they survived Lea, et al.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Arjan on October 08, 2019, 04:55:56 AM
Quote from: morriswalters on October 08, 2019, 02:21:52 AM
Not quite.By the text  the Red King was the progenitor, otherwise the bloodline curse wouldn't have exterminated the Reds to a monster.  JB goes all Abrahamic  with that bit.  The White God is a jealous God.  However it may be that the Lords of the Outer Knight themselves would have survived the curse had they survived Lea, et al.
I do not take the words of an archangel necessarily as truth either. They run on stories and human belief as well and this is the truth as they believe. It is what they are expected to say about any other active god they are not ignoring. You can not expect them to say yes X is a valid god as well be happy worshipping him.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Yuillegan on October 08, 2019, 07:10:45 AM
Well Jim says its canon. So we actually have WOJ that the Dresden Files RPG is essentially canon, and so the Paranet Papers fall under that umbrella. Like all the associated Dresden Files works, there is some misinformation and half-truths, mostly on account that Jim has more books to sell and doesn't want to ruin the whole thing.

As for words of an Archangel being truth - WOJ is that Uriel whispering seven words to Dresden was truth on a cosmic level at the end of Ghost Story. We also know that they have Intellectus which is defined as having all of reality present to the being with Intellectus, they merely have to ask the question to know the answer. They don't seek knowledge as such. But cause and effect are tricky for them because of that, because Time isn't linear for them either. So yeah Uriel may be somewhat changed by human belief in each universe he appears in, but the being that exists everywhere that is called Uriel in the Dresden Files universe is absolute. The WOJ is that it is NOT the beings themselves that change, but OUR understanding of who and what they are.

Kbrizzle - I agree with your theory mostly. I 100% agree that the Vampires Courts creation were multiple attempts at something, and I would bet that Drakul is behind it all (I even think I posted a theory on this a while back...). I must admit when I wrote my post I was half-asleep so that sentence on the end doesn't make sense, and I cannot remember really what I was meaning to say. I think if each Court of Vampires has a sort of LoON type group (Lord and Ladies of the Houses in White Court, Elders in the Black Court, probably something similar in Jade) then I agree it stands to reason the Lord Raith is likely NOT to be the progenitor. It would be interesting to find out what happened to the original White King (can someone ask Jim at the next con or whatever?)

Dspringer1 - what is the WOJ you are referring to?
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: kbrizzle on October 09, 2019, 04:22:20 AM
Quote from: morriswalters on October 08, 2019, 02:21:52 AM
Not quite.By the text  the Red King was the progenitor, otherwise the bloodline curse wouldn't have exterminated the Reds to a monster.  JB goes all Abrahamic  with that bit.  The White God is a jealous God.  However it may be that the Lords of the Outer Knight themselves would have survived the curse had they survived Lea, et al.
I think Murphy’s angel-possessed quote is supposed to be taken in the sense that the Red King & LoONs murdered & fed upon the actual deities present in the area (per Paranet Papers) - in this sense, they are not true gods (even though they demand to be worshipped as such) - just parasites who killed their host & took a portion of their power.

After all, I don’t think Uriel would call Odin or Hades a ‘false god’...

@Yuillegan
There is a quote from Ebenezer in BR when he admits to Harry that he was Maggie Sr.’s mentor & about being Blackstaff etc. where he tells Harry that Lord Raith’s ability to shrug off magic is what elevated him to the White throne - this implies that he wasn’t always the White King & may only have become King in the last few centuries.

It also seems like every court has Elders, the LoOns were just the Ramp version.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: g33k on October 09, 2019, 05:19:55 AM
Quote from: Arjan on October 07, 2019, 09:44:58 AM
The mayan gods still have a considerable following but as far as I know do not get human sacrifices anymore.
I'm pretty sure that in the Dresdenverse, the LoON's get both human sacrifice (in ritual, magically-empowering ways) and regular Ramp-bloodsucking.

Or they did, before the end of Changes.   8)
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Yuillegan on October 09, 2019, 05:58:38 AM
Mira is correct - I believe the false god statement is not referring to the notion that there is only one "God" as in the TWG, but the fact that they are feeding and impersonating the Mayan gods (the ones mentioned in the RPG).

Yes I just had a re-read. Good pick up. So I think we can then take at face value that every court has elders and the White King is not the progenitor. We still don't know enough about their origins, or what happened to the original White King.

Also, in that part of Blood Rites I picked up on another interesting clue. Eb mentions that Maggie Le Fey and Justin were associates. Make of that what you will.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: dspringer1 on October 09, 2019, 03:08:17 PM
Quote
“False gods!” she cried, her blue eyes blazing as she stared at the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night. “Pretenders! Usurpers of truth! Destroyers of faith, of families, of lives, of children! For your crimes against the Mayans, against the peoples of the world, now will you answer! Your time has come! Face judgment Almighty!”

Quote
By the text  the Red King was the progenitor, otherwise the bloodline curse wouldn't have exterminated the Reds to a monster.  JB goes all Abrahamic  with that bit.  The White God is a jealous God.  However it may be that the Lords of the Outer Knight themselves would have survived the curse had they survived Lea, et al.

I think nobody disputes that all the vampires at the end battle in Changes were descended from the Red King, including the lords of outer night.   However many people have speculated that "some" red court vamps survived as they were not of the blood.  If true, then all of the reds could NOT have descended from the Red King. 


Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on October 09, 2019, 06:23:31 PM
Quote from: morriswalters on October 07, 2019, 02:12:59 PM
Are the Paranet Papers canon?
I'd say they are semi-cannon. It's like authority in law. There's the statute, then court opinions, then "secondary" materials like treatises and law review articles. Even in opinions, you will have different levels of authority.

In the DF's, we have the books and things Jim says (I don't know which one should carry more weight), I'd say the comics come in third, and then you have the Paranet Papers.

But even in the Paranet Papers, Billy (and others he's working with) often questions the veracity of reports they're getting that make up the Paranet Papers. The origins of the LoON are a fourth hand account. (It might have been third or fifth hand). I've also heard mention of a WoJ that the gods they were feeding on have now escaped.

Quote from: dspringer1 on October 08, 2019, 12:21:11 AM
[1]It was stated that most of the red court was descended from the Red King, but clearly some were "not of the blood".  ...

[2]We know that older vampires sometimes lose control as it was stated in changes.
1. I took that to mean that they weren't Mayan. Not that they weren't "descended" from the Red King.

2. I don't think it is necessarily an age thing. I think Kelly was likely to become a "blood slave" if she survived much longer. Harry says some things that make it look like an age thing, but that was his speculation. Bianca also had a problem. That's why she killed her assistant. I think they were all addicts and each individual's level of control was a large part of where their status came from inside the court.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: toodeep on October 09, 2019, 06:34:56 PM
I still like the idea that many of the bad creatures at one time or another served a "good" purpose.  The Red Court was really supposed to stay at the half-red stage and at that level they were the super warriors of the Mayans that fought off the supernatural threats of other tribes.  Similar with the White Court and the Etruscans.  My favorite is the Ghouls as symbiots in the Sumerian culture - think of it, as carrion eaters in a large enough population of humans with a small enough population of ghouls they could very simply serve as the elite warriors and consume the dead of the humans (serving a sanitary and spiritual purpose as well) of the Sumerian tribes.  They may even have been rulers.  But eventually they overpopulated, became a menace to the mortals, and the mortals had to rise up and drive them off into the spirit world.  It would explain why so many different cultures have different creatures associated with them instead of everyone having the same legends/monsters.  And it also seems necessary, since any nation with supernatural forces like ghouls or vampires as their special forces would easily overwhelm nations without them, so most cultures would have to develop some special line of allies to help them.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on October 09, 2019, 07:22:11 PM
@toodeep: And we've seen at least one way that protector creatures can be corrupted into evil by Butters' story, Day One.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: g33k on October 10, 2019, 02:02:40 AM
Quote from: Bad Alias on October 09, 2019, 07:22:11 PM
@toodeep: And we've seen at least one way that protector creatures can be corrupted into evil by Butters' story, Day One.

Surely the Fallen count, too!
And the Naagloshii.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Con on October 10, 2019, 02:37:29 PM
I mean we've seen Super Ghouls that were supposed to be the precursor to Ghouls the same way Neanderthals are too human in White Night. Ghouls were once again servants of White Court in the College Bigfoot story, where Rivers in his Shoulders fought off twenty. So Ghouls have twice been associated with the White Court.

As to Paranet Papers being canon. I'd say canon until proven otherwise. Paranet is referenced as a significant community in Ghost Story. Hell we are discussing this on a site called Paranet.

As to the Red Court and the LoON being Gods. A) Vaddderung. B) Snacking on Mayan Gods you are what you eat. C) Being Worshipped by the Red Court and there servants. D) It's in the name Lords of the OUTER NIGHT.


Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: Bad Alias on October 10, 2019, 03:53:01 PM
Quote from: g33k on October 10, 2019, 02:02:40 AM
Surely the Fallen count, too!
And the Naagloshii.
Didn't even think about them, but definitely.
Title: Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
Post by: g33k on October 12, 2019, 01:25:39 AM
Quote from: Con on October 10, 2019, 02:37:29 PM
I mean we've seen Super Ghouls that were supposed to be the precursor to Ghouls the same way Neanderthals are too human in White Night...

I'm pretty sure Jim Butcher just took his normal workaday Ghoul and applied the d20/D&D3.X  "Dire..." template.