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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Kraken on May 23, 2011, 04:33:16 AM
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Something that just came to mind, for reasons that may some day be made public...
How do Wardens protect themselves from Deathcurses? I mean, I understand that by and large a lot of warlocks aren't properly trained full blown wizards, and aren't really as knowing about the laws of magic in a general manner (IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE) so might not know how to pull off a proper deathcurse.
However the time comes when a full blown wizard gets himself in too far, and does something stupid, breaks a law or several in the process, and they decide to put him down. Given that the game lets the PC own their death scene (and they should at that)
Short of a sniper rifle or employing a third party that is expendable somehow, how do they avoid it?
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Non-PCs don't own their own death scene. So they can be cheated out of a death curse.
I imagine that the black hood that they make the executees wear helps. They can't see their death coming, so they wait before using the death curse...and by the time they realise that it's well and truly over they are dead.
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You have to be wizard to have a Death Curse. Harry was surprised when a centuries old sorcerer hit him with "You will Die Alone" and it partly stuck - which implies you need power for own.
Most Warlocks are untrained talents who didn't know enough not to break the laws - I doubt they think about Death Curses and they lack the power for major ones. The big ones like Kemmler, well you have to accept that you're dying before you can Death Curse someone and the ego rich evil wizards usually can't accept that.
I can see Cowl fighting to the last, convinced that he can win and not saying a Death Curse because he knows that these insects won't be able to kill him.
If you check out the sticky about WoJs on the spoiler board you'll find somethings that Jim has said about them. Including how they don't have to be subtle things like "Die Alone", "Never Feed Again", or other ones from the books. When Archangel fell the death curses destroyed most of the attackers. Sort of a:
BAM - I'M TAKING YOU WITH ME
explosion of magic.
Richard
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Non-PCs don't own their own death scene. So they can be cheated out of a death curse.
Got some text to back that up?
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Umm...NPCs are fictional. They do as the GM pleases. They can't own any scenes, they just act at the GMs whim. So the GM can just say, "Okay, he dies without a death curse. Congrats, guys."
Honestly, your question seems utterly bizarre to me. Could you please explain what you were getting at?
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Umm...NPCs are fictional. They do as the GM pleases. They can't own any scenes, they just act at the GMs whim. So the GM can just say, "Okay, he dies without a death curse. Congrats, guys."
PCs are fictional. They do as their players please.
Honestly, your question seems utterly bizarre to me. Could you please explain what you were getting at?
The implication seemed to be that NPCs are treated differently from PCs for the purposes of their 'death scene', and that the 'owning' of one's death scene was a privelege granted to players, and their PCs, but not the GMs, and NPCs.
Under the assumption that that was the intent, I inquired as to whether there was textual support for such a position, as it was not supported by my reading of the rules.
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The hood they make the accused wear helps. Not only can they not see the blow coming, they can't see anyone to target. Sure, they could go for the Warden who hauled them in, but if I was them I'd put that Warden behind a circle just in case. The other points about needing strength to pull off a death curse and possibly being too crazy to think you could die (as shown with Grevane) also help the matter.
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I'm sorry, but your answer doesn't help me.
I mean, obviously you don't grant privileges to NPCs. You can't. Unlike the players, they don't exist. So they can't control any scene, no matter what.
I feel as though someone asked me for proof that the sky was above the ground.
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Ok first off I am not familiar with the game in question, but I am a veteran geek from way back.
From a gaming perspective
Allowing a Death Curse from an NPC should only be allowed if it is a plot device, but not as a general rule.
From DF book perspective.
A Death Curse is a product from a trained wizard. The vast majority of executions of the Wardens are novice offenders. Its takes some serious knowledge of energy control to use your own life force as a source to fuel a final spell.
And possibly the Warden's swords provide some protection from incoming magical energy. They do cut through spells, so they might be able to fend off curses.
just my 2 cents.....
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Warden swords are supposed to be darned nifty for counterspells.
One thing that is not clear is how Death curses scale with wizard power. Normally, a death curse uses the death of the wizard to supply the complexity required for the curse. But factors like defenses of the target, thresholds, etc... could increase the power required for a given effect. But a death is a death. How does the death of a more powerful wizard make a more powerful death curse?
If, for example, the death curse attempts to kill the target, and assumes that 5 (maxing out stress bar) +2 for mild +4 for moderate +6 for severe +8 for extreme +4 for best roll is sufficient to kill a target, but the target has +6 to their roll because of the Warden sword, and a 6 point magical shield, does the whole thing just fizzle?
For evocation, you need to roll control to direct the power, but it also has to hit. What "to hit" does thaumaturgy use? Can the spell be slipped or dodged or deflected somehow?
It is never mentioned in the books, but what if the wizard who is executing the warlock is open to the Sight, so they can intercept a death curse before it gets to their target? The White Council may seem pretty heavy handed about its executions of warlocks, but what if the executioner carries a memory of the execution to their dying day?
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Another option to reduce the impact of death curses is to really beat up the guy you are going to kill before you finally kill him. You can't take consequences you've already taken to power your death curse. So, for example, the wardens could steal a page from the English and do the whole "half-hanged, disembowelled, etc, etc" method of execution, so that the guy's consequence track will be full before you finally get around to killing him.
That cuts down the bonus from consequences from +20 to +8, a big help you you are on the receiving end.
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Gag the warlock. No speech = no deathcurse.
Also, you could wrap them up, tie them to a stone and throw them to the sea. Lots and lots of water between you and them and by the time they die of suffocation, you'd be a few miles away. Plus, they won't be able to speak.
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Not to smash the whole gag a wizard thing but that doesn't work. In the books it is clearly explained that a wizard doesn't need to speak, wave hands, or anything to cast. These are just insulation against magic's effects on the caster. With words, gestures, and preperation the wizard only gets tired (ie. takes stress). In one of the books Harry is in a choke hold and blacking out, can't talk, move etc, and he casts a lightning bolt at the guy, it just affects him alot more making him see shades of the nevernever. Also, if I were a warlock and I was going to use a deathcurse I'm pretty sure it wouldn't matter to me if I had a headache at the end as I would be dead so gagging me would be silly.
Death curses require concentration and time to build. I've read all the books a few times and each time a deathcurse is used the caster has to draw in alot of power and it takes time. It was also clearly said that sometimes a death is so fast that a person can't cast the spell. Also you have to remember that even if a person could cast one, is the last thought through your mind going to be "hmm, I'll use that death curse now! BLAM!" or "Oh god oh god that guy just stabbed me/This can't be happening". Warlocks are mostly the untrained that stumble into their power and aren't taught how to use it. It probably never occurs to most warlocks that the possiblity to use that type of fuel even exists.
All this being said, NPC's do have death curses. It is up to your game master to regulate when one is appropriate, and what it does ultimately. A PC or NPC may even have access to one but may not be able to come up with the way to use it when the time comes. My game is bi-weekly and I can honestly say that it takes me the full two weeks to come up with one that will be truly terrifying to an enemy and that is tailored to that specific enemy! If you had as little time as 15-30 secs could you come up with a deathcurse or would you just try to blast the guy? Also, timing would have to come into it. What happens if your not as hurt as you think you are. PC's and NPC's dont' know jack about stress and consequences. The player might but your supposed to be pretending to be that guy, he doesn't have a sheet to say "Hrmm, I'm almost full on stress and consequences, this next hit will kill me, I'm gonna deathcurse!" If I were a wizard I would be very afraid to use that lest I not be as bad off as I thought. "Well, Bob had a papercut with lemon juice on it and would have made it but he fired off that deathcurse and died..." food for thought.
As far as executions go, the hood stops the curse. Deathcurses are most definitely evocation. That being said, you have to see the target to hit them with it. The stuff that you can do without L.O.S. is thaumaturgy and is far to time consuming for a deathcurse. First book Harry says that you have to be able to see someone to use the boom boom magic. Far as I'm concerned case closed. The only time a deathcurse should come in is during a fight.
I know I've gone on a bit here but in my game I am the warden. I've thought about this and other stuff like this alot. ;)
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The books say Deathcurses are ritual magic that is fast because the preparation and casting conditions are the death of the wizard. ::)
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The books say Deathcurses are ritual magic that is fast because the preparation and casting conditions are the death of the wizard. ::)
Actually this supports the whole hood prevention but in a weird roundabout way. The caster has no thematic link to anything at that point. I would think that actually having the target nearby would count, but with the hood....
Mostly though I'm with Sanctaphrax and Wookinstien on this one. They don't get death curses unless they are interesting to the story like "Die alone!" Otherwise it's just bad form to tell the PC's "You've taken him out, he explodes and you all die (or are severely injured or messed up in some way)."
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I'd play it out as a negotiated consequence that changes and Aspect.- GM says "How about....X"
Player(s) come back with "Interesting, but lets give is a twist of... X+Y, I could work with that."
If all agree that is what goes down.
e.g. Harry gains the Aspect "Die Alone" instead of another aspect that has served its time, or been resolved by taking out the wizard.
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Actually this supports the whole hood prevention but in a weird roundabout way. The caster has no thematic link to anything at that point. I would think that actually having the target nearby would count, but with the hood....
Mostly though I'm with Sanctaphrax and Wookinstien on this one. They don't get death curses unless they are interesting to the story like "Die alone!" Otherwise it's just bad form to tell the PC's "You've taken him out, he explodes and you all die (or are severely injured or messed up in some way)."
First of all, I would think that the wizard in question could always link to him or herself. (for example, call down lightening on him or herself, or turn into a burst of flames, or whatever devastating explosion they felt like). I think the two biggest protections that Wardens have is their experience and encasing the entire event inside a circle. The circle limits the power a Wizard has access to and limits potential targets to just the wardens in place, and the experience and power of the wizards present probably allows them to defend themselves from any potential attacks.
In game terms, I would say, as pretty much everyone else NPC wizards do get a death curse, but I would treat it as the opportunity for plot hooks rather than the ability for the taken out wizard to deal massive damage to the party. Figuring out what curse is now hanging over their head, dealing with the demon called up at the last minute, or coming to terms with a new aspect applied to one or more characters are all sparks for good storylines, and are probably the best use of the death curse.
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I'm sorry, but your answer doesn't help me.
I mean, obviously you don't grant privileges to NPCs. You can't. Unlike the players, they don't exist. So they can't control any scene, no matter what.
I feel as though someone asked me for proof that the sky was above the ground.
NPCs don't exist.
And neither do PCs.
Players do exist.
And so does the GM.
The privilege is granted to the players, and from my reading, to the GM
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Let's ask Jim Butcher what he thinks about Death Curses... Oh wait, some already has. See http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1221.msg22003.html#msg22003 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1221.msg22003.html#msg22003) for his reply to a discussion on death curses.
Important parts:
However, while taking your killer down with you might be the most immediately gratifying thing to do with a death curse (assuming that they haven't up and prepared to defend against that kind of magical retaliation, which only a real moron *wouldn't* do if they knew they were off to murder a wizard), it might not be the SMARTEST thing you could do with it.
(Note: I added bold.)
So a death curse can be defended against - unless it's really sneaky. Even when it's not a direct attack I've got the feeling that if Harry had been at the top of his game (not battered and half dead) when he was hit by a sorcerer's curse he might have shrugged it off and not be hit with "die alone". He was ready for a death curse when he took on a certain black court vampire - a death curse but not a flame thrower.
Which makes me think that Wardens know how to deal with curses, especial those from untrained insane warlocks.
Richard
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So, basically y'all are asking something similar to: "Hey, why aren’t there more death curses messing everyone up given the Council’s history of taking down rogue sorcerers?"
And if the game designers were to answer your question, I think the answer might be something along the lines of: "Two things prevent that. One, the Wardens have gotten very good at preventing them. Two, most bad guys are too arrogant to assume anyone will ever manage to kill them. No foresight, no planning, no curse."
(YS282 sidebar, if anyone cares.)
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Oh, I see. That makes considerably more sense then I thought it did.
By my reading, the GM can narrate the deaths of NPCs as he wishes. So he can give them death curses. But "can" often won't translate into "will".
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Oh, I see. That makes considerably more sense then I thought it did.
By my reading, the GM can narrate the deaths of NPCs as he wishes. So he can give them death curses. But "can" often won't translate into "will".
I think that's a very fair way of looking at it. Basically, a death curse amounts to a plot device. For a PC, it's their last hurrah, and is therefore worth doing. For an NPC, it's up to the GM to decide whether or not it adds to the storyline. Myself ... I think I'd probably have dying NPC wizards do *something* in terms of a Death Curse. After all, Death Curses are supposed to be scary stuff -- the thing that largely prevents Wizards from going around trying to blow each other up willy-nilly, and also the thing that makes other things that go bump in the night at least think twice before going after a Wizard. (Yeah, I know, that plan always works *so* well in the novels.)
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So, basically y'all are asking something similar to: "Hey, why aren’t there more death curses messing everyone up given the Council’s history of taking down rogue sorcerers?"
You mean look to the rule book for the answer? No, that would make too much sense. Much better to reverse engineer the issue.
Richard
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Interestingly enough, I'm playing a Warden who took a Death Curse pre-game.
It is a major part of his backstory, is involved with 2 of his aspects, and was the major explanation of why a 100 year old Wizard was back down to our game's starting refresh of 8.
From a narrative perspective, a death curse should either make the story more interesting, or be the predictable consequence of doing something significant.