In the discussion on the WB on their way to Demonreach Harry mentions that he hoped Lara would kill Marcone. Thomas mentioned that he hoped for the opposite. That was a bit surprising.
I thought there was genuine love between Lara and Thomas… or… is that simply not possible for White Court Vampires.
Page number, chapter, book, please, I don't remember that and need context.
Page number, chapter, book, please, I don't remember that and need context.
”I was sort of hoping she’d kill him,” I said. (Harry) “I was sort of hoping for the other way around,” Thomas said.
Because of the vampire White Court they need to eat. And Thomas wasn't eating. He was the equivalent of starving. Nobody wants to see their sibling starve themselves.
Thanks I will look it up. However when you think about it, it makes some sense that he'd say that. Lara was happy in a weird way after Shaggy got done with Thomas, because he became more coldly vampire like she was. Remember how he was at the end of Turn Coat, but then Jim never did anything more with that.
I think Thomas does probably love Lara. If he truly wanted her dead, he'd have tried. I think it's more that he knows how dangerous she is, and her motivations. So on some level he loves her, but also knows that Justine, and Harry are in danger from her, and if he got in the way, she'd get rid of him too.
My take away still is that I am disappointed that Jim didn't do more with the Thomas we saw at the end of Turn Coat. There were real questions after the meeting in the zoo between him and Harry, whether or not Thomas could regain his humanity and or how Harry was going to deal with that. That could have been really interesting, but the next time we see Thomas it was like his sessions with Shaggy never happened.
This. If the author introduces a moral quandary for a character don’t forget you did so three books later.
Thomas's mental struggles are a feature of Thomas. If Jim gives us more short fiction from Thomas's POV then I suspect we'll learn a great deal more about them.
But that's my point, at the end of Turn Coat, Thomas had murdered several young women to survive after Shaggy tortured him to the point of death, the whole rinse and repeat brought out the full vampire. This pleased Lara, but Harry was totally taken aback by the change. Then the next time was see Thomas, he is the same guy he always was, still a vampire, but also very human. I guess that plays into Harry not understanding Eb's attitude towards Thomas in Peace Talks. But I still wish it had been explored more.
This. If the author introduces a moral quandary for a character don’t forget you did so three books later.
Good point. What Thomas has gone through before being put in Stasis is likely many times worse than what Shaggy did to him. Plus, he doesn't have the real Justine anymore (or perhaps his illusion of her is gone).
Question: Is a hypothetically well-fed Thomas actually a match for Lara? I actually don't think so. I suspect that Lara, Thomas and Lord Raith are the three strongest of the Whites, but that doesn't mean that he can take down Lara. She has too much experience, is older (and therefore stronger) and probably knows how to use the Hunger to achieve a wider range of tactical objectives.
Chekov's gun
So while I understand that the end of Turn Coat may have hinted at a change in Thomas. After almost two years, he's healed quite a bit and should realistically be close to his old self, san a trigger.
Yeah, but at the end of Turn Coat Thomas was more the "classic White Court Vamp," that isn't Thomas. Then that gets swept under the rug pretty quickly, what I'm wondering is if at the point he was more vulnerable and HWWB/Justine is able to take advantage of him.. As in at the end of Ghost Story she brings in a lesbian to have sex with so she and Thomas can touch each other and have sex. Ask yourself, if it was that easy, why didn't they do that years before? Remember at the end of Battle Ground Justine/HWWB was boasting to Harry how he/she set things up so Thomas could get her pregnant.. Hmmmm... Was Shaggy cahoots with Outsiders back in Turn Coat?
While I think it happened earlier, it's possible that Nemesis had not infected Justine until Turn Coat and was not in full control of her until after Changes or Cold Days. We know that there is some part of Justine still there because her love for Thomas renews their protection after each liaison.Do we? As far as Nemesis goes, I don't think that would affect the "true love" protection. My point is if it merely took a sex act with someone else to cancel it out, why didn't it happen before Ghost Story?
Do we? As far as Nemesis goes, I don't think that would affect the "true love" protection. My point is if it merely took a sex act with someone else to cancel it out, why didn't it happen before Ghost Story?
Also there were some questions regarding Justine in Turn Coat.. I just skimmed across them looking for something else, but after Shaggy takes Thomas it becomes a question of whether or not Justine can still sense Thomas for I think were tracking purposes. As I said it was a quick glance, but what if Shaggy was softening up Thomas for Nemesis? Could Justine been lying about not sensing Thomas so Shaggy would have time to remove as much humanity from Thomas as possible?
Thomas would still love Justine but I doubt that a Nemesis dominated Justine loves Thomas.
Of course not, but a Nemesis dominated Justine could fake it and the sex act with another is all that she needed to fake it. Once the protection is gone, it stays gone..
The usefulness of this strategy is dependent on how quickly the protection is reestablished after the act. Mere seconds and they may get burns no matter how careful they are, A few minutes or more and this would be workable. Jim knows surely(or at least he should) but that may be going into too much detail.
I don't think it works that way, unless Justine's girlfriend came to live with them and they had sex just before she had sex with Thomas. Remember HWWB/Justine confesses to Harry on the boat how she set things up so she'd get pregnant and be able to blackmail Thomas into becoming an assassn.
I was keeping it strictly mechanical. Justine and 3rd party have sex to disable protection and then she gets with Thomas which resets it. If it resets instantly, then no cuddles would be possible and they have to spring away from each other to avoid burns. If it takes some time, then there would be cover for your theory about how HWWB pulled this off.
The only reason that I have some doubts about her being completely possessed until after Cold Days is because HWWB could have gotten what he wanted if he had struck while they were confronting Maeve. From the time Harry's backup team covers themselves in mud, until they were at the finale where Harry summons Mab, Justine was inside Demonreach's defenses and was not watched suspiciously as everyone was concerned with rushing to Harry's aid. No one, with the possible exception of Mouse would have seen it coming.
The only reason that I have some doubts about her being completely possessed until after Cold Days is because HWWB could have gotten what he wanted if he had struck while they were confronting Maeve. From the time Harry's backup team covers themselves in mud, until they were at the finale where Harry summons Mab, Justine was inside Demonreach's defenses and was not watched suspiciously as everyone was concerned with rushing to Harry's aid. No one, with the possible exception of Mouse would have seen it coming.
Add to that, Lara has had the time to peruse her father's library; which I believe was supposed to contain a great deal of magical knowledge. My guess is that probably meant White Court vampire abilities. Way back in Blood Rites, we were given a description of Lord Raith's 'kiss of death' technique, which he would use; presumably against other White Court vampires, to start business meetings of the Court to get everyone's attention. Harry even teased Lord Raith about his inability to use the kiss of death any longer because of Margaret's death curse.
I'm think this is an example of Chekov's gun. We've been given a graphic description of a rare and powerful White Court vampire attack method but we haven't seen it used; at least not yet. My hypothesis is that at some point we will get to see it used. I think it could occur in the next book.
Most likely, that means a resurgent Lord Raith uses the kiss of death to show everyone he is back, or; and I think this next scenario is far more likely, Lara Raith uses the same ability to show those in the White Court she no longer needs her father as a figurehead to maintain her leadership of the Court.
I suppose a third possibility is that Thomas will get the opportunity to learn this nasty trick and his father's other secrets, which will allow him to challenge Lara and become the leader of the White Court, but at present that seems highly unlikely to occur.