ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on October 31, 2020, 07:36:46 AM
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This seems like a rather minor part of a conversation Carlos had with Harry, at Marcone's Castle before Ehniu showed up.
Carlos - "How's Karrin doing?"
Harry - "Like always, but slower and grouchier."
Carlos - "I heard what she did. Went hand to hand with Nicodemus Archleone and survived."
How did Carlos or anyone from the White Council know about this? Was someone sitting under a veil watching the whole thing play out? That seems highly unlikely. I don't think Rashid saw it through some time travel message shenanigan's. If he had it's unlikely he would have told anybody else unless he believed it was necessary to do so.
I'm going to eliminate Nicodemus and the Genoskwa from the list of people who would have spilled the story. One's on the run and the other would rather kill a human than talk to one. That leaves Harry, Murphy, Michael and Waldo Butters. Charity was in the safe room with the children.
Murphy was pretending that her injuries occurred in a traffic accident and Harry would have backed her up on this. That leaves Michael and Waldo and Michael was in the game a long time before that day. Long enough to know there are some things you don't share around the campfire.
I think Waldo Butters shared the story of Murphy going up against Nicodemus with some of the people on the paranet. He wouldn't have done it out of maliciousness, just a lack of understanding that some things need to be kept under wraps. Unless, it was Mr. Sunshine and that seems really, really unlikely. Do you have a different solution?
A couple of other questions come to mind. Shouldn't Harry have been surprised by Carlos' question? If Ramirez knows about Murphy going against Nicodemus, how much more does he; and the White Council, know about the break in of Marcone's vault? For that matter, what about the rest of the major players in the supernatural world. For example, shouldn't Lara know the same facts? However, even though Carlos knew that Nicodemus had been set up, he gave Marcone all the credit for doing so, which was incorrect. Marcone and Hades provided the bait. Mab was the real brains behind the plan and Harry made it happen. Do you think Carlos realized that Harry was involved, because it didn't seem like he did to me? If you want to reread this passage, it's in chapter 25, page 238.
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Word gets around. Part of it because of Marcone and Mab who want everyone to know about Nicodemus defeat. Part of it because everyone is watching each other.
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I forgot to mention this before, but yes, it surprised me too. Specially the "I heard" but it implies that he does not know it thanks to Harry. But, IIRC, they were spreading the word that they were working for Marcone, so I think Marcone and his people spread the word. But of course, it could have been Michael. If that is the case, I hope the White Council also knows what Michael said of them in the end of BG :D
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Not so surprised about the question about Murphy perhaps. But how would he know about her
fight with Nic that got her injured? But then again, wouldn't that have been a friendly question to
be asked when they were on the beach before all of this went down in the first place? Or more odd, wasn't she sitting in the Munstermobile when Carlos and company stopped Harry? Why didn't he just ask her then, if supposedly it was all friendly, which it wasn't.
One way that makes some sense, is one of the Wardens was involved with a mission that included
Butters, the new Holy Knight. Then he would have gotten the information that the Sword had been remade, and there was a new Knight, and most likely Butters would have told how it happened. I don't think it is a secret.
Then there are a couple of ways that would be troubling if Harry had been paying attention fully to what Carlos said. However his mind was a bit occupied at the moment with how to free Thomas.
1] Carlos has taken up a coin because his body is so weakened he cannot do his job anymore. He was in a wheel chair apparently, but no indication that he is. Or father the holder of the coin never made itself known.
2] Yes, Harry was being watched even then, or rather watched for. He had been on the island for a year, so it was known when he left it with Mab. If it was a veiled tail, they might have seen the jewel that Mab put in his ear to keep the pain at bay, and interpreted it as a "control" of sorts. It would have seen the rest as well, and disciplined enough to merely watch and not get involved.
3] Carlos is infected with Nemesis, hope not, that well has been gone to a lot.
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Or more odd, wasn't she sitting in the Munstermobile when Carlos and company stopped Harry? Why didn't he just ask her then, if supposedly it was all friendly, which it wasn't.
One way that makes some sense, is one of the Wardens was involved with a mission that included
Butters, the new Holy Knight. Then he would have gotten the information that the Sword had been remade, and there was a new Knight, and most likely Butters would have told how it happened. I don't think it is a secret.
Then there are a couple of ways that would be troubling if Harry had been paying attention fully to what Carlos said. However his mind was a bit occupied at the moment with how to free Thomas.
1] Carlos has taken up a coin because his body is so weakened he cannot do his job anymore. He was in a wheel chair apparently, but no indication that he is. Or father the holder of the coin never made itself known.
2] Yes, Harry was being watched even then, or rather watched for. He had been on the island for a year, so it was known when he left it with Mab. If it was a veiled tail, they might have seen the jewel that Mab put in his ear to keep the pain at bay, and interpreted it as a "control" of sorts. It would have seen the rest as well, and disciplined enough to merely watch and not get involved.
3] Carlos is infected with Nemesis, hope not, that well has been gone to a lot.
No, Harry was alone the first time he went to see Lara.
I wonder if Mab might have been watching Harry under a veil. She might have watched the incident and then spread the story of how Nicodemus betrayed his word, betrayed the people he hired and how Murphy survived going one on one with him. Of course, she would have done this through proxies and gave Marcone all of the credit so Nicodemus will focus any future revenge plans against the Baron of Chicago. That would seem a very Mab thing to do; discredit and belittle an enemy and yet find a way to point their rage at someone else.
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No, Harry was alone the first time he went to see Lara.
You're right, my bad. Still Carlos could have asked about Murphy then.. He knew from the tracking dot that Harry had spent considerable time at her place.
I wonder if Mab might have been watching Harry under a veil. She might have watched the incident and then spread the story of how Nicodemus betrayed his word, betrayed the people he hired and how Murphy survived going one on one with him. Of course, she would have done this through proxies and gave Marcone all of the credit so Nicodemus will focus any future revenge plans against the Baron of Chicago. That would seem a very Mab thing to do; discredit and belittle an enemy and yet find a way to point their rage at someone else.
She could have, but I am not quite sure what her gain would be. Nic had already been discredited pretty badly by the end of Skin Game. We also do not know if Carlos knows the full story, as in Nic going back on his word. What we know, he knows, is Murphy received some major injuries fighting Nic. All Carlos said was, "I heard.." Now Molly may even have told him all of this before their sex fiasco. Which actually makes more sense that it coming from Butters.
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It might not be a secret in the supernatural community of Chicago or the Paranet. If it's not a secret in either, it wouldn't be weird for Carlos to hear as he's in L.A. where one of the heads of the Paranet is.
If it's only widely known in the Chicago supernatural community, Carlos has been keeping tab on the goings on of Chicago (meaning he's been suspicious of Harry), or he just talked to someone he knows in the Chicago supernatural community when he went out there for the peace talks.
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You're right, my bad. Still Carlos could have asked about Murphy then.. He knew from the tracking dot that Harry had spent considerable time at her place.
Good point.
She could have, but I am not quite sure what her gain would be. Nic had already been discredited pretty badly by the end of Skin Game. We also do not know if Carlos knows the full story, as in Nic going back on his word. What we know, he knows, is Murphy received some major injuries fighting Nic. All Carlos said was, "I heard.." Now Molly may even have told him all of this before their sex fiasco. Which actually makes more sense that it coming from Butters.
I'm not sure about the part I highlighted. I think Nicodemus was discredited because someone made some kind of public declaration; within the magical community, that Nicodemus had betrayed his word. If Nicodemus comes out of the vault by himself, possibly with one or two allies, then no one can say what he did. After Harry and company came out, I think that's when Mab put the word out. Nic leaving by himself with Harry pursuing a few minutes later was all Mab needed to publicize Nic's betrayal. I don't think Binder would have said anything because he just wanted his split. Anna Valmont operates on the edges of the supernatural world, she's not a full member. She would have relished the idea of discrediting Nicodemus, but I'm not sure she would know how to do it or if her word alone would suffice. Michael wouldn't have lowered himself to do something like this and Harry was under the weather, so to speak. That's why I think Mab put out the information to any and everyone in the supernatural world.
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I'm not sure about the part I highlighted. I think Nicodemus was discredited because someone made some kind of public declaration; within the magical community, that Nicodemus had betrayed his word. If Nicodemus comes out of the vault by himself, possibly with one or two allies, then no one can say what he did. After Harry and company came out, I think that's when Mab put the word out. Nic leaving by himself with Harry pursuing a few minutes later was all Mab needed to publicize Nic's betrayal. I don't think Binder would have said anything because he just wanted his split. Anna Valmont operates on the edges of the supernatural world, she's not a full member. She would have relished the idea of discrediting Nicodemus, but I'm not sure she would know how to do it or if her word alone would suffice. Michael wouldn't have lowered himself to do something like this and Harry was under the weather, so to speak. That's why I think Mab put out the information to any and everyone in the supernatural world.
I don't think she had to do anything to get the word out. Evidently the supernatural grapevine is pretty strong. The motive behind the robbery was pure vengeance for kidnapping Marcone years before, it was years in the making. What is interesting about the little scene at the end of Skin Game between Marcone, Mab, Harry, and Molly is what Harry said about what went down in the bank itself.
Why the plans to Marcone's vault were available.Why the bodies got cleaned up, and
why the cops didn't crawl all over this thing when it was done. Hell, they probably spinning the shoot-out and the explosions as some kind of terrorist attack.
Little off topic I realize, but in the light of Rudolph's I.A. investigation, I am thinking it had Marcone's finger prints all over it.. Back to regular programing..
Nic's set up,
Harry to Mab and Marcone;
"And you dealt him the worst pain you could imagine. You took away his daughter. No, you did worse---you made him do it himself." "Now he has lost his lieutenant," I continued. "He's lost his squires. When word gets out of his treachery, he'll lose his name. No one will want to work with him. From where you are standing, you've done worse than kill him. You've wounded him, strangled his power, and left him to suffer."
I doubt that Mab was watching or that it was she that put the word out. Now it might have been Marcone. Or in a twisted way, it may have been Nic himself trying to rebuilt his rep. He is down, but he isn't out, he can be just as cunning as Mab, and he is host to a master spy who hears everything, he might have learned just enough so that Nic could exploit prejudices in the Senior Council, he'd know of the sexual fiasco that Carlos suffered..
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All Carlos said was, "I heard.." Now Molly may even have told him all of this before their sex fiasco. Which actually makes more sense that it coming from Butters.
Nah, that short story was lampshaded as being very shortly after she got the mantle. Early in Harry's time stuck on the island, not post-SG.
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Nah, that short story was lampshaded as being very shortly after she got the mantle. Early in Harry's time stuck on the island, not post-SG.
Okay, couldn't remember the exact timeline. Then it has to be Butters I think, he is new to the Holy Knight gig, and I can see him thinking there was no harm in talking about what happened at Michael's house.
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Of they want to really stamp on Nics reputation then telling how he almost got beaten by an entirely vanilla mortal tiny woman is not bad as a cherry on top. So I think the motive for Mab or Marcone is there.
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Of they want to really stamp on Nics reputation then telling how he almost got beaten by an entirely vanilla mortal tiny woman is not bad as a cherry on top. So I think the motive for Mab or Marcone is there.
Except that is questionable. Plenty of evidence that Nic let her almost beat him. He was setting her up because he knew what she'd do once he surrendered. And she did what he predicted, tried to execute him and break the Sword, which was his object. He couldn't have been too beaten or hurt because once that happened he turned the tables and really beat the snot out of her, crippling her for the rest of her life.
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Except that is questionable. Plenty of evidence that Nic let her almost beat him. He was setting her up because he knew what she'd do once he surrendered. And she did what he predicted, tried to execute him and break the Sword, which was his object. He couldn't have been too beaten or hurt because once that happened he turned the tables and really beat the snot out of her, crippling her for the rest of her life.
That might be true but that is far from obvious. Mab and Marcone will give their own spin to it and nobody believes Nicodemus anyway.
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That might be true but that is far from obvious. Mab and Marcone will give their own spin to it and nobody believes Nicodemus anyway.
There were other Denarians present, and Nic's squires as well, they could have spread the story.
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There were other Denarians present, and Nic's squires as well, they could have spread the story.
The squires left Nicodemus and are probably spreading Marcones Story now. If they are spreading any story, they have no tongues. Deirdre is dead. Hannah is dead. The other denarians were not involved.
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Plus, 2 denarians tell you the most powerful Denarian played a mortal woman for a fool and achieved very little.
Mab and Marcone tell you the most powerful Denarian almost got beat by a mortal woman associated with that upsetter of balanaces, Harry Dresden, and only saved himself through sheer gall, then subsequently broke his word in a heist.
I know who I would believe. The latter is much more in line with Nic's image.
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We also know just how many little folks are running around Chicago and Harry in particular. A pizza and the right questions can get you a lot of valuable information.
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The squires left Nicodemus and are probably spreading Marcones Story now. If they are spreading any story, they have no tongues. Deirdre is dead. Hannah is dead. The other denarians were not involved.
Blood on His Soul was there.
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Blood on His Soul was there.
Who is such a wonderful communicator ;D
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Funny fact in Forest People language Genoshkwa means "War Path" but it also can be read as "Gossip Girl" - it all depends where you count this H in the middle.
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ROFL!!! :D :D :D
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Who is such a wonderful communicator ;D
Point.
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Why would it have to beyond that Harry reported the incident to the WC, he was still part of the council at the end of SG.
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Why would it have to beyond that Harry reported the incident to the WC, he was still part of the council at the end of SG.
Too incriminating. Only leading to further questioning and unwanted attention. No wish to bring the white councils attention to his friends.
No wish to tell the council where he was and what he got, and what he did not get.
A complete report would be unwise and an incomplete report would lead to unwanted questions and why give the council free information that can be used against you? Besides all that reporting takes time and effort.
Indo not think he reported anything. That also created more distrust but...
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I mean, in terms of creating distrust palling around with Nicodemus with no explanation is probably worse than any report.
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I mean, in terms of creating distrust palling around with Nicodemus with no explanation is probably worse than any report.
Sure but I can not find any explanation that would actually help Harry and would not harm his friends or got unwelcome attention to the artifacts, demonreach or his relation to Mab.
And a report that is obviously incomplete and false wouldn’t help either.
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Sure but I can not find any explanation that would actually help Harry and would not harm his friends or got unwelcome attention to the artifacts, demonreach or his relation to Mab.
And a report that is obviously incomplete and false wouldn’t help either.
Yes, Harry was between a rock and a hard place, which was just enough to give the Council the excuse to toss him. Even if he did go and lobby as Eb suggested I doubt that it would have helped at all, in fact it might have made things worse.
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I know I and others here have said it before, but it bears repeating, it makes little sense for the Council to oust Harry, largely on evidence that he violated the First Law, and not execute him for that violation.
It's an equivocal response. It telegraphs weakness and fear. They're unwilling to attack Harry. A single wizard. Sure, he has a fearsome reputation, but so do a lot of members. Kincaid seemed scared of Eb. The Merlin, the Gatekeeper, LtW are all extremely impressive in combat. They were set on killing Morgan rather than appear weak. Either the Council is in serious trouble, or something else is at play.
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There is Mab. The council can throw Harry out but declaring war on Harry now just after what he did for the accords and for Mab and hunting him down on this flimsy accusation runs a serious risk for the council. Mab might decide that this is an attack on her court.
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I still think the "killing humans" is BS. It was a battle. It's like killing someone in self defense. It shouldn't be a reason to expulsion, or death sentence, or anything.
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I still think the "killing humans" is BS. It was a battle. It's like killing someone in self defense. It shouldn't be a reason to expulsion, or death sentence, or anything.
So was Chichen Itza but the blackstaff only got away with killing all those mercenaries because of his staff. The accusation was flimsy because the status of turtlenecks.
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I know I and others here have said it before, but it bears repeating, it makes little sense for the Council to oust Harry, largely on evidence that he violated the First Law, and not execute him for that violation.
It's an equivocal response. It telegraphs weakness and fear. They're unwilling to attack Harry. A single wizard. Sure, he has a fearsome reputation, but so do a lot of members. Kincaid seemed scared of Eb. The Merlin, the Gatekeeper, LtW are all extremely impressive in combat. They were set on killing Morgan rather than appear weak. Either the Council is in serious trouble, or something else is at play.
The catch there is that being WK gives him more protection than he thinks.
Does Harry get paid for being the Winter Knight or is that not a thing?
Are you kidding? No no he can go ask for things. Harry already did get paid for being the Winter Knight by being given a bunch of power. The Sidhe are hyper-focused on obligation and keeping the sheets balanced, especially Winter. In Summer you can get a little bit more emotional and do some nice things and not hold anyone accountable for it but in Winter everyone accounts for everything. So sure they could pay Harry but he'd have to go live on - and be working shifts and doing things on their time and so on. As it is Mab's just made a deal "When I need you, you show up." He's kind of a consultant now and he's been paid in power. Plus he reaps a bunch of side indirect benefits of being Mab's strong guy; such as the White Council not just obliterating him. "That would be declaring a war, can't really do that, damn it, we should have killed this guy when we had the chance" that's what a lot of people on the White Council are thinking, even the people who kind of like him, "you know what, maybe we should have killed this guy when we had a chance", they've seen too many bad wizards come along. Everybody who is worried about Harry is looking at him and thinking "that's Kemmler again and it's just a matter of time before he starts digging into bad things, you saw what he did with the dinosaur" so. But yeah, they're not gonna pay him that would be too easy for Harry. Harry's the Charlie Brown of urban fantasy, he gets to open his treat bag and go "I got a rock".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N-5X2wf8JM
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It was a battle. It's like killing someone in self defense.
The First Law is "don't kill mortals with magic," not "don't murder mortals with magic." Nothing in WoJ, the books, or short stories indicate that "not murder" killings are exempted from the Laws of Magic, the Council's or the universe's version. If I was writing the books, that's how it would work. But I'm not.
The catch there is that being WK gives him more protection than he thinks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N-5X2wf8JM
How much of a pause would the White Council take if Harry were to start flagrantly breaking the laws and saying “Come at me bro” while Winter Knight? Would his connection to Mab provide much protection?
They wouldn’t pause long at /all/ in that case. And Mab would look at him and say “you started this: finish it.”
While it appears that your more recent WoJ and this one conflict, I can read them as not conflicting. The "White Council not just obliterating him" (emphasis added) isn't the same as them executing him for "flagrantly breaking the laws and saying 'Come at me bro.'” They're is a big difference between executing someone for breaking a well established law with the death penalty being the well established sentence than just assassinating/murdering someone. Most despotic regimes and tyrannical kings usually have some trumped up charges when they just want someone dead.
I still think it telegraphs weakness. Especially to those who aren't thinking like the 2016 WoJ, but are thinking Harry was flagrantly violating the Laws while thumbing his nose at the Council, which he basically did when Ramirez confronted him in the graveyard.
I think these two WoJ, read together and not as contradictions, really lend credence to the "killing Turtlenecks is a First Law violation is bs" camp.
Also this to illustrate how Jim lies with like a Sidhe/changes his mind.Kansas City release party Q&A [circa 2011]
You’ve mentioned several times that marriages are used to seal pacts and alliances, will Harry be forced into a marriage, and will it be with Lara [Raith]?
What makes you think that Harry hasn’t been forced into a marriage already? I mean, the whole thing with Mab, come on. Read more book. Read the most recent one, and see if that doesn’t give you more answers. Certainly, he’s in it deep with Mab at the moment, because there’ll be none of this, “He’s going to get out of this because he was technically dead”—no, it’s too easy.
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Of course it's BS, in the book Harry knows it and so does Carlos. It high political theater, or at least what passes for it in Jim's mind. It's been telegraphed since Summer Knight and was reinforced in Dead Beat. It was only a question of when. Carlos knew of the events because a rep is useful to Marcone only when things that build him up are widely known. It would have been part of taking down Nic.
Jim has shown that he will throw canon under the bus if it suits him.
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The First Law is "don't kill mortals with magic," not "don't murder mortals with magic." Nothing in WoJ, the books, or short stories indicate that "not murder" killings are exempted from the Laws of Magic, the Council's or the universe's version. If I was writing the books, that's how it would work. But I'm not.
Harry killed Justin (and, as far as the WC knows) Elaine with magic and they did not kill him because they could not prove it was not in self defense. So, Damocles and all that, but self defense is a passable excuse. Also, about the death sentence, a wizard has no right to speak in his defense? Because Harry said he was too busy to go to speak with the WC while he was working the PT, but that was about his status as member of the council. It he was going to be accused of, basically, being a warlock, he should have been able to defend himself, right?
Gosh, I really hope that decision bites the Council in the arse.
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Harry killed Justin (and, as far as the WC knows) Elaine with magic and they did not kill him because they could not prove it was not in self defense. So, Damocles and all that, but self defense is a passable excuse. Also, about the death sentence, a wizard has no right to speak in his defense? Because Harry said he was too busy to go to speak with the WC while he was working the PT, but that was about his status as member of the council. It he was going to be accused of, basically, being a warlock, he should have been able to defend himself, right?
The defendant has no rights at all. In the show trial against Morgan letting him speak was an exception, not the rule. Nobody let Molly speak. You only get a defense if some wizard with enough cloud wants to defend you. If he gets the opportunity and the warlock is not just beheaded in your absence
These are not really trials in any modern sense. Just a group of people deciding whether you are too dangerous too live.
And unless the case is too clear to ignore it can be all subject to politics. Harry was spared not because he was innocent, several wizards just wanted too kill him, but because the blackstaf had enough cloud to prevent it. And again Harry did not speak either. He could not even see who his accusers were.
Gosh, I really hope that decision bites the Council in the arse.
Of course. They will need winter and probably Harry in the next apocalypse. But most of them are pretty ignorant as the gatekeeper said.
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The Wizards judicial proceedings are modeled after Star Chambers and the Wardens after Death Squads. Why Jim chose these particular models escapes me.
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The White Council doesn't really have trials. What they have are formal meetings that allow them a salve to the collective conscience of the non-Senior members and for the Senior Council to make political points and on rare occasions find new talent.
Execute a warlock? Expel an outlaw? That's on the seniors, nothing to do with me, sad about those lost kids though.
The Seniors get to show that they have the power and authority to run things. They also get to say, " Hey, we've found a rare kid with talent, who's not a total loss. Anybody want to try to save them and add to the WC's power It's ok if you don't cuz we have this insane rule where if they go bad before you finish teaching them you die. See how compassionate and merciful we can be.
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Harry killed Justin (and, as far as the WC knows) Elaine with magic and they did not kill him because they could not prove it was not in self defense.
Self defense isn't a justification. Self defense against black magic is. There's a huge difference. The Turtlenecks were using firearms, not magic.
... we have this insane rule where if they go bad before you finish teaching them you die.
Is that a rule? It happened that one time with Harry. It doesn't appear to be a condition on Eb. The condition placed on Eb was that he would have to execute Harry if Harry stepped out of line. Eb ignored this condition.
The White Council's concept of what a trial consisted of might have come from the Roman Empire. I don't know what that looked like. In the Republic, it looked close enough to what we're familiar with: juries, two sides arguing, etc. After the Republic, the juries went away. I'm not sure about the rest.
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I just wanted to let a WoJ here, it's from a pre PT interview (perhaps even before SG, I am not sure). It's about the Council reaction to Harry´s upgrades.
28:56 Going back to that question about Molly and the Doom of Damocles, what was the White Council's reaction when they found out that Harry, the black sheep, and then his apprentice are now like the two most powerful people in the Winter Court?
And not only that, he's also in charge of the damned island full of monsters *said while pointing down*, he's also taken over monster island what do you think their reaction is? You look at Harry from the exterior, oh my gosh he's the new dark lord, that's the new Voldemort, he is on the way. And not only that but he's secured his position with Mab now so you can't cross him without crossing Mab as well, not only that but his apprentice is even more highly placed than that so he's trained the next person up from him in the chain of command over in Winter, not only that but he's obviously got some kind of relationship with the new Summer Lady and also the current Summer Knight, he's forming this group of people who share information over this internet that wizards can't access, so he's got this spy network forming, are you kidding, he's the most dangerous man on the planet.
So they're crapping their pants.
Yeah exactly. It's not as much that as "yeah okay we're going to have to bump him up as a threat, bump him up again, bump him up a-it doesn't go any higher? Okay we're going to have to start taking action on this one" so.
Is he still part of the White Council?
Technically. Technically because the White Council subscribes to the "keep your friends close and keep your enemies closer" theory of things. And Harry doesn't really realise any of that because he's just stumbling along through his life doing stuff, but anybody who's looking at it from the outside are you kidding they've got to be flipping out right now.
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I just wanted to let a WoJ here, it's from a pre PT interview (perhaps even before SG, I am not sure). It's about the Council reaction to Harry´s upgrades.
Yeah, that just about sums it up, and instead of trying to working with him or reaching out to him, they chose to alienate him instead. Not wise, because they will need him before the end.
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Yeah, that just about sums it up, and instead of trying to working with him or reaching out to him, they chose to alienate him instead. Not wise, because they will need him before the end.
Yes they basically threw away their influence on him and a useful spy as well.
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This seems like a rather minor part of a conversation Carlos had with Harry, at Marcone's Castle before Ehniu showed up.
Carlos - "How's Karrin doing?"
Harry - "Like always, but slower and grouchier."
Carlos - "I heard what she did. Went hand to hand with Nicodemus Archleone and survived."
How did Carlos or anyone from the White Council know about this? Was someone sitting under a veil watching the whole thing play out? That seems highly unlikely. I don't think Rashid saw it through some time travel message shenanigan's. If he had it's unlikely he would have told anybody else unless he believed it was necessary to do so.
I'm going to eliminate Nicodemus and the Genoskwa from the list of people who would have spilled the story. One's on the run and the other would rather kill a human than talk to one. That leaves Harry, Murphy, Michael and Waldo Butters. Charity was in the safe room with the children.
Murphy was pretending that her injuries occurred in a traffic accident and Harry would have backed her up on this. That leaves Michael and Waldo and Michael was in the game a long time before that day. Long enough to know there are some things you don't share around the campfire.
I think Waldo Butters shared the story of Murphy going up against Nicodemus with some of the people on the paranet. He wouldn't have done it out of maliciousness, just a lack of understanding that some things need to be kept under wraps. Unless, it was Mr. Sunshine and that seems really, really unlikely. Do you have a different solution?
A couple of other questions come to mind. Shouldn't Harry have been surprised by Carlos' question? If Ramirez knows about Murphy going against Nicodemus, how much more does he; and the White Council, know about the break in of Marcone's vault? For that matter, what about the rest of the major players in the supernatural world. For example, shouldn't Lara know the same facts? However, even though Carlos knew that Nicodemus had been set up, he gave Marcone all the credit for doing so, which was incorrect. Marcone and Hades provided the bait. Mab was the real brains behind the plan and Harry made it happen. Do you think Carlos realized that Harry was involved, because it didn't seem like he did to me? If you want to reread this passage, it's in chapter 25, page 238.
To be honest, I believe Jim was getting so rushed with his last two (one) novel(s) that he didn't apply the polish we are used to. Several times I suspect he just wanted to put the idea on paper but didn't really go through the whole process of working out how that information should come out naturally, and we as readers are highly sensitive to that. It's hard as an author to get that right as it is but when under pressure I am not surprised that things blow out a bit.
Take Harry's conversation with Bob early on in BG about Reality starting to break. The scene is almost word for word something out of one of Jim's interviews or Q&As - Harry is the questioner and Bob is Jim. Why would Harry say to Bob (in-universe) "Ferrovax the Dragon" when Bob would already know who he meant by saying Ferrovax and Bob probably knows more than Harry about what Ferro really is? And why would Harry bring up a conversation from 20 years ago with a being who wasn't even present for it (as though they were) to ask about this? It was almost as if Jim wanted remind not just the audience but also himself of what happened in Grave Peril when Harry and Ferro first meet.
The conversation would have made more sense (in my opinion) if it read more like:
"Bob, when I first met Ferrovax he told me his true form would crack the Earth - did he mean Reality?"
"Yes, Harry you moron. Did you really think he meant physically crack the planet's crust with his weight? It only took you 20 years to figure that out!"
Or something like that. Instead it came off as clunky, ham-handed exposition. It wasn't the usual standard of Jim's writing at all.
Another example is Dresden's mysteriously deep and practical knowledge of how the Arma Christi (Weapons of Christ - the artefacts he retrieved from Hades' vault) seem to work. How on earth did he know how the plaque worked? It's not like that knowledge is just everyday information (there is no lore that suggests it in our world either). If it is common knowledge in Harry's universe (which would be extremely bizarre) then shouldn't more people know? If it is in fact the rare knowledge that it most likely IS (and should be), how does Harry come to possess it? It's not like Harry could just test this stuff either. It's almost like a scene was missing where Harry needed to seek out information on the artefacts of the Redeemer. Same with the Spear of Destiny? How does Harry know it's a spear to everything (I assume that means nothing can stop it)? And what a crude use of it too. A mundane stabbing tool. Surely the Spear of Destiny (supposedly a weapon that makes the holder invincible) can be used better than for a mere tactical contest? We are talking a thing connected to the fundamental and supreme power in the universe. And while we can put it down to Harry being a brute yadda yadda - we know now that Harry hasn't been the brutish "engineer" that Jim wanted him to appear as for a long time. We have seen that he is intelligent, crafty, ruthless, diplomatic (at times) and thoughtful. Harry's should know more about his weapons, that doesn't bother me. But how he came into that knowledge does. It almost appears to just pop into his head. Who knows, maybe it's another type of intellectus (clever tool for Jim to use too).
The Wizards judicial proceedings are modeled after Star Chambers and the Wardens after Death Squads. Why Jim chose these particular models escapes me.
Jim has always made a bit of a point through out the series of the dangers of large organisations that impose rules on others. I suspect he himself was channelling his own feeling about bureaucracy (particularly in relation to his rather harsh treatment by the university administration - not the professors - something he mentioned in an interview). It's somewhat thematic too for such an old organisation, so it works in-universe too. Currently he has Harry seceding from the White Council under the guise of this is for the best etc. Maybe it is, time will tell. But it's certainly heading towards the destruction of the White Council and the rules-based order they have helped keep. There may come a time where Harry might regret this. Perhaps he is even being nudged to do this. These days Harry sounds a lot like Cowl when he talks to and about the White Council - but with less haughtiness and style.
I still think the "killing humans" is BS. It was a battle. It's like killing someone in self defense. It shouldn't be a reason to expulsion, or death sentence, or anything.
You also have to consider Harry's expulsion was not really about whether he broke the rules, but because people wanted him out of the Council. For varying reasons. Some on the Council think he is a legitimate danger (and clearly there is a big reveal coming about Harry's dark origins and possible future). Some want him isolated from his former allies so he will be easier to manipulate. Some just want him removed so he can be killed easier. It's politics after all.
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About the knowledge of the weapons, I suspected he has asked Alfred but I wondered why he never said it explicitly in his inner monologue "According to Alfred, the Spear is a spear for everything."
As a side note, I repeat what I already said, I am worried because it has never been stated that the Spear is back in the Demonreach armory. I don't know if it was lazy writing or we are facing another "Where is your blasting rod, Harry?"
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About the knowledge of the weapons, I suspected he has asked Alfred but I wondered why he never said it explicitly in his inner monologue "According to Alfred, the Spear is a spear for everything."
As a side note, I repeat what I already said, I am worried because it has never been stated that the Spear is back in the Demonreach armory. I don't know if it was lazy writing or we are facing another "Where is your blasting rod, Harry?"
Possibly, but it was a bit poor of Jim to not explain that. And I'm not sure Alfred would be able to explain it (assuming he had the knowledge) without damaging Harry.
I really hope it's not a repeat of SmF. That would be a bit annoying. I think Jim just didn't explain Harry taking it back. Or perhaps Harry is keeping it in his new fortress now. Harry seemed to think it would be as hard to get in as Demonreach (not if your Ethniu level clearly).
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I just wanted to let a WoJ here, it's from a pre PT interview (perhaps even before SG, I am not sure). It's about the Council reaction to Harry´s upgrades.
It's pre-PT and from 2016.
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You also have to consider Harry's expulsion was not really about whether he broke the rules, but because people wanted him out of the Council. For varying reasons. Some on the Council think he is a legitimate danger (and clearly there is a big reveal coming about Harry's dark origins and possible future). Some want him isolated from his former allies so he will be easier to manipulate. Some just want him removed so he can be killed easier. It's politics after all.
Maybe they just hope some old enemy of his will bump him off.
Or perhaps Harry is keeping it in his new fortress now. Harry seemed to think it would be as hard to get in as Demonreach (not if your Ethniu level clearly).
It might be that hard, or close to it, for Ethniu. She blasted her way out, not in. That's often much easier.
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Maybe they just hope some old enemy of his will bump him off.
It might be that hard, or close to it, for Ethniu. She blasted her way out, not in. That's often much easier.
Marcone did not use all things possible with the enchantments in the stones. Harry will create insane level wards.
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Maybe they just hope some old enemy of his will bump him off.
I think some of them have been. Drakul seems to imply that some of them want him for some special reason, a sacrifice or weapon bred specifically.
It might be that hard, or close to it, for Ethniu. She blasted her way out, not in. That's often much easier.
Maybe...Marcone did have Gard help with the defences. While Harry might get better ones, truth is that Ethniu is a power both older and greater than Mab and such beings. She seemingly had most of her full power, she was armoured in nigh-invulnerable plot armour and armed with a super-weapon. Gods have constantly been used a reference point for beings that could smash down seemingly impregnable locations (Arctis Tor, crossing a strong threshold and still have plenty of mojo, Edinburgh etc). It might hold a bit longer but I doubt if the God was prepared Harry could do much about it. As Ethniu was.
Marcone did not use all things possible with the enchantments in the stones. Harry will create insane level wards.
Not sure that he will create wards. He still needs families living there to build a strong enough threshold to build on. Even so, the wards are already there. All he has to do is activate what's still working. The problem he has is what does he do about the one that were destroyed?
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Maybe...Marcone did have Gard help with the defences.
The wards in place were similar to the ones on Demonreach. They could have been from Merlin. Marcone also had Namshiel. I don't know if Gard was adding a whole lot in magic department at that point.
Another point is that the wards probably weren't fully armed because Marcone had guests coming and going.
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Maybe...Marcone did have Gard help with the defences. While Harry might get better ones, truth is that Ethniu is a power both older and greater than Mab and such beings. She seemingly had most of her full power, she was armoured in nigh-invulnerable plot armour and armed with a super-weapon. Gods have constantly been used a reference point for beings that could smash down seemingly impregnable locations (Arctis Tor, crossing a strong threshold and still have plenty of mojo, Edinburgh etc). It might hold a bit longer but I doubt if the God was prepared Harry could do much about it. As Ethniu was.
I think Ethniu with the eye could storm Demonreach despite Harry being on the Island and the wards all turned on. It may take a few shots but I think it would get the job done. As far as Marcone and the wards goes they probably selected the wards that they did to protect specifically against the Fomor.
Not sure that he will create wards. He still needs families living there to build a strong enough threshold to build on. Even so, the wards are already there. All he has to do is activate what's still working. The problem he has is what does he do about the one that were destroyed?
I wonder if the threshold of a Castle moves with it? If this building is centuries old and had a student of Merlin as well as the Twyleth Teg put wards down they may just need to get turned on and can run off the power stored in the stones.
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The wards in place were similar to the ones on Demonreach. They could have been from Merlin. Marcone also had Namshiel. I don't know if Gard was adding a whole lot in magic department at that point.
Another point is that the wards probably weren't fully armed because Marcone had guests coming and going.
Do you remember Gard's ward on her locker at the train station? Ward's are something she can do, arguably better than Harry. Her job for Marcone is as a consultant so I expect that she was giving him the bulk of the advice. She didn't need to place any wards on the castle; they already were there. I suspect Marcone has been keeping Namshiel under wraps for a while, I doubt he wanted to reveal that even at the end. Marcone, like all of the really clever guys, keeps his cards close to his chest. I suspect he didn't let Gard in on that. Which isn't to say she didn't know. But I am sure he was playing dumb about a few things in order to just be the little old Baron, not a Knight of the Blackened Denarius. Particularly because Gard has quite strong feelings about those guys - as does Vadderung I am sure.
I think Ethniu with the eye could storm Demonreach despite Harry being on the Island and the wards all turned on. It may take a few shots but I think it would get the job done. As far as Marcone and the wards goes they probably selected the wards that they did to protect specifically against the Fomor.
I wonder if the threshold of a Castle moves with it? If this building is centuries old and had a student of Merlin as well as the Twyleth Teg put wards down they may just need to get turned on and can run off the power stored in the stones.
Perhaps, she was very strong. Although Sharkface couldn't get through on brute force either...and why he arguably wasn't as strong as Ethniu (at that moment) he is still a heavy hitter. But then again, Alfred was specifically made for capturing beings like Ethniu (and by Harry's own admission Ethniu isn't the biggest thing on Demonreach, by some margin). I suspect she would be pretty loathe to attack Harry on Demonreach unless she was desperate or had a cleverer approach. The wards were there to protect against any supernatural threat - the insult to the Fomor was written above the entrance to make a point that Marcone wasn't afraid of them (which he clearly underestimated).
WOJ is that Marcone had to move a bunch of families in as there was no threshold in order for the wards to work. I suspect it comes down to when the the home is either destroyed or no longer a home, the threshold is destroyed too. It's people that create the thresholds after all. I suspect caves had them originally.
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Do you remember Gard's ward on her locker at the train station? Ward's are something she can do.
So? Doesn't mean she helped him with the wards or that the wards were Gard's. She may have helped. I highly doubt they were her wards.
Whoever had constructed this place, they’d warded it at least as heavily as the defenses of the White Council’s own headquarters under Edinburgh. I could have hurled Power at this place all the ding-dong day, and it would have about as much effect as tossing handfuls of sand at sheet metal. It was similarly fortified against spiritual intrusion, with the only possible access points being the heavily armored entryways—and even those had been improved upon since I’d slipped my immaterial self through an open door.
Nothing was getting in now. The castle would make one hell of a defensive position.
Or, some nasty, suspicious part of me said, nothing was getting out, making it one hell of a trap.
“Huh,” Ebenezar said, squinting at the castle. “That’s old work. Real old.”
“Our people, you think?” I asked him.
“Nnngh,” he said, which meant that he didn’t think so. “Maybe Tylwyth Teg. Maybe even Tuatha.”
“Tuatha?”
The old man’s mouth curled up at one corner, and his eyes were thoughtful and approving. “The ancient enemy of the Fomor,” he said.
“Ah,” I said. “Statements are being made.”
Emphasis added. So maybe it was as hard to blow her way out as it would have been to blow her way in.
There's a lot of contradictions in that quote. It implies that the wards were done by whoever constructed the Castle, but also that some of them weren't there when Harry was there in GS. The quote also implies Harry wasn't invited in that time. He was. The quote further implies that the wards were done by beings from either Welsh or Irish folklore. I'm not sure whether or not the Tautha are considered fairies in the Dresden Files. I'm not sure if there even extant.
This is also the quote that forgets that Harry was there in SG and that it's the Brighter Future Society.
Anybody have the quote about the wards from Battle Ground? I haven't gotten a digital copy of that one yet.
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So? Doesn't mean she helped him with the wards or that the wards were Gard's. She may have helped. I highly doubt they were her wards.
Emphasis added. So maybe it was as hard to blow her way out as it would have been to blow her way in.
There's a lot of contradictions in that quote. It implies that the wards were done by whoever constructed the Castle, but also that some of them weren't there when Harry was there in GS. The quote also implies Harry wasn't invited in that time. He was. The quote further implies that the wards were done by beings from either Welsh or Irish folklore. I'm not sure whether or not the Tautha are considered fairies in the Dresden Files. I'm not sure if there even extant.
This is also the quote that forgets that Harry was there in SG and that it's the Brighter Future Society.
Anybody have the quote about the wards from Battle Ground? I haven't gotten a digital copy of that one yet.
She shook her head. “Have you noticed all the enchantments on the place?” Molly asked skeptically. “There is some really old stuff here that is still working.”
In point of fact, I had Bob going over the entire thing now for an in-depth assessment. The defensive systems built into the castle had been laid up by a wizard with a particularly thorough breed of the crazies. My first read was that Marcone’s use of them had only touched the surface of their potential—maybe Thorned Namshiel hadn’t yet had time to teach him to make full use of them. Hell, the only reason I felt like I knew what I was talking about was that the enchantments hardwired into the stones of the castle bore a startling structural resemblance to those that had been used to create Demonreach. It was entirely possible that the castle’s magical defenses had been the work of the original Merlin or one of his inheritors.
It would take time to be sure, but if I was right, by the time I was done with the place, I’d have a redoubt damned near as hard to crack as the island, and a heck of a lot more convenient to live in.
“Yeah. Kind of like having a smart house, I guess,” I said. “There’re all sorts of features I’m going to have to work through and figure out.”
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Well, Harry will want to do wands that can keep Denarian Marcone and Gard away, I am sure. So he will need to do a good job. I suspect his intellectus on the island has helped with Demonreach runes and that in turn will help him with the Castle ones, and that is why Namshiel couldn't do that himself. That, or there are something in the wards themselves that are against Denarians.
Gosh, I hope Excalibur is in the castle soon.
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I won't live to see this, but I think that the wards are angelic. I think this is the whole reason for Bonea. Everything is a trail of breadcrumbs leading to the finale. The Castle, the island, Bonea and the guy in Demonreach. Everything related to Merlin. Bonea isn't just a little girl spirit. She bargained with Mab when she helped keep Harry alive in Ghost Story. Why keep Harry ignorant until Cold Days? One question Jim has to deal with is how Merlin would have known what he knew of the magic that he used.
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Perhaps, she was very strong. Although Sharkface couldn't get through on brute force either...and why he arguably wasn't as strong as Ethniu (at that moment) he is still a heavy hitter. But then again, Alfred was specifically made for capturing beings like Ethniu (and by Harry's own admission Ethniu isn't the biggest thing on Demonreach, by some margin). I suspect she would be pretty loathe to attack Harry on Demonreach unless she was desperate or had a cleverer approach. The wards were there to protect against any supernatural threat - the insult to the Fomor was written above the entrance to make a point that Marcone wasn't afraid of them (which he clearly underestimated).
WOJ is that Marcone had to move a bunch of families in as there was no threshold in order for the wards to work. I suspect it comes down to when the the home is either destroyed or no longer a home, the threshold is destroyed too. It's people that create the thresholds after all. I suspect caves had them originally.
Sharkface may be incredibly powerful but he's still bound by whatever not being of this reality. Ethniu is part of this reality and mordite takes it past that. Plus the Eye being a ranged weapon she could go for the actual bedrock of the island which may not be warded (she'd go for the frontal assault, she's a child but she could do something different).
As far as there being nastier things than Titans chained up in Demonreach I'm reminded of how Harry described Alfred as being an Antlion going after bigger bugs. The circle is the sand trap that the bugs fall into and the will of the binder is the walls which keep the bugs from getting in. Then the antlion comes in and takes them away.
Also the quotes in Battle Grounds make it sound like you can anchor wards in stone, you just need to turn them on and power them. Can Harry tap a leyline from his place?
I won't live to see this, but I think that the wards are angelic. I think this is the whole reason for Bonea. Everything is a trail of breadcrumbs leading to the finale. The Castle, the island, Bonea and the guy in Demonreach. Everything related to Merlin. Bonea isn't just a little girl spirit. She bargained with Mab when she helped keep Harry alive in Ghost Story. Why keep Harry ignorant until Cold Days? One question Jim has to deal with is how Merlin would have known what he knew of the magic that he used.
She's also Lash's child so she's probably got a devious streak. I wonder when Harry will turn to Bonea for magic lessons? As for Merlin maybe he had a divine tutor as well? Pre-mortal Vadderung? Or Merlin is another Starborn (in some version he's the Devil's son) and learned from something he bound?
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It was entirely possible that the castle’s magical defenses had been the work of the original Merlin or one of his inheritors.
Thanks. This part and something Jim said on The Dresden Files Podcast makes me thing it was one of the authors of Eb's journals. Jim said the castle was from Scotland. Eb's Scottish. It's a stretch, I know.
... the guy in Demonreach. Everything related to Merlin.
Jim said the guy in Demonreach was put there by the original Warden of the island.
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To be honest, I believe Jim was getting so rushed with his last two (one) novel(s) that he didn't apply the polish we are used to. Several times I suspect he just wanted to put the idea on paper but didn't really go through the whole process of working out how that information should come out naturally, and we as readers are highly sensitive to that. It's hard as an author to get that right as it is but when under pressure I am not surprised that things blow out a bit.
That is plausible.
Take Harry's conversation with Bob early on in BG about Reality starting to break. The scene is almost word for word something out of one of Jim's interviews or Q&As - Harry is the questioner and Bob is Jim. Why would Harry say to Bob (in-universe) "Ferrovax the Dragon" when Bob would already know who he meant by saying Ferrovax and Bob probably knows more than Harry about what Ferro really is? And why would Harry bring up a conversation from 20 years ago with a being who wasn't even present for it (as though they were) to ask about this? It was almost as if Jim wanted remind not just the audience but also himself of what happened in Grave Peril when Harry and Ferro first meet.
The conversation would have made more sense (in my opinion) if it read more like:
"Bob, when I first met Ferrovax he told me his true form would crack the Earth - did he mean Reality?"
"Yes, Harry you moron. Did you really think he meant physically crack the planet's crust with his weight? It only took you 20 years to figure that out!"
Or something like that. Instead it came off as clunky, ham-handed exposition. It wasn't the usual standard of Jim's writing at all.
I concur.
Another example is Dresden's mysteriously deep and practical knowledge of how the Arma Christi (Weapons of Christ - the artefacts he retrieved from Hades' vault) seem to work. How on earth did he know how the plaque worked? It's not like that knowledge is just everyday information (there is no lore that suggests it in our world either). If it is common knowledge in Harry's universe (which would be extremely bizarre) then shouldn't more people know? If it is in fact the rare knowledge that it most likely IS (and should be), how does Harry come to possess it? It's not like Harry could just test this stuff either. It's almost like a scene was missing where Harry needed to seek out information on the artefacts of the Redeemer. Same with the Spear of Destiny? How does Harry know it's a spear to everything (I assume that means nothing can stop it)? And what a crude use of it too. A mundane stabbing tool. Surely the Spear of Destiny (supposedly a weapon that makes the holder invincible) can be used better than for a mere tactical contest? We are talking a thing connected to the fundamental and supreme power in the universe. And while we can put it down to Harry being a brute yadda yadda - we know now that Harry hasn't been the brutish "engineer" that Jim wanted him to appear as for a long time. We have seen that he is intelligent, crafty, ruthless, diplomatic (at times) and thoughtful. Harry's should know more about his weapons, that doesn't bother me. But how he came into that knowledge does. It almost appears to just pop into his head. Who knows, maybe it's another type of intellectus (clever tool for Jim to use too).
The way that Harry knew how the plaque worked really bothered me. The spear a little less, but there was a little voice in the back of my mind saying to me, "this is weak." It reminds my of something a certain foul mouthed movie critic (Mr. Plinkett) on the YouTube channel Red Letter Media says about logical inconsistencies in movie scripts that you might not consciously notice; at least on a first viewing, because the movie is fast paced or a major action scene follows; "You didn't notice it, but your brain did." Sometimes it's only when you discuss a movie with other people; or in this case a novel, or re-watch or re-read it, that the writing flaws become easily apparent, but something in the back of your mind was already pinging you that something was off.
My best guess is Jim had a scene in mind that took place on Demonreach where being The Warden of island gave Harry a level of intelectus to understand how the weapons worked. I think it would have been best if that had happened in the denouement chapter of Skin Game. Harry could have locked the weapons in one of the empty crystals meant for prisoners and then had an a sudden understanding of what they did. A short conversation would have followed with Alfred with a surprised Harry exclaiming something simple and direct like "I know what they can do, now," with Alfred replying, "Of course, you are the Warden." Unfortunately, Jim needed to wrap up other elements of Skin Game and reveal future complications and conflicts, so such a scene was never written. It might have also been done in Peace Talks or Battle Ground but perhaps because the story was already pretty long as it was, Jim might have decided that adding a scene like the one I described above might have slowed down the pace of story to an unacceptable level. So, I think Jim probably knows how Harry knows about the Arma Christi, he just forgot to explain it to us. Oops!
Jim has always made a bit of a point through out the series of the dangers of large organisations that impose rules on others. I suspect he himself was channelling his own feeling about bureaucracy (particularly in relation to his rather harsh treatment by the university administration - not the professors - something he mentioned in an interview).
I think I'll refrain from trying to psychoanalyze Jim. You could be right, but I don't know if there could be other factors involved.
It's somewhat thematic too for such an old organisation, so it works in-universe too. Currently he has Harry seceding from the White Council under the guise of this is for the best etc. Maybe it is, time will tell. But it's certainly heading towards the destruction of the White Council and the rules-based order they have helped keep. There may come a time where Harry might regret this. Perhaps he is even being nudged to do this. These days Harry sounds a lot like Cowl when he talks to and about the White Council - but with less haughtiness and style.
Many of us have long known that something like this is coming. Though it might not result in the wholesale destruction of the White Council, but things will certainly get shaken up. The Gatekeeper hinted at this in Turn Coat. Now it seems to be right around the corner. At least in universe it may be right around the corner. For the readers it might be something more like four to six years.
You also have to consider Harry's expulsion was not really about whether he broke the rules, but because people wanted him out of the Council. For varying reasons. Some on the Council think he is a legitimate danger (and clearly there is a big reveal coming about Harry's dark origins and possible future). Some want him isolated from his former allies so he will be easier to manipulate. Some just want him removed so he can be killed easier. It's politics after all.
Yes, there are those who are acting out of fear and those who are playing one kind of game or another.
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The way that Harry knew how the plaque worked really bothered me. The spear a little less, but there was a little voice in the back of my mind saying to me, "this is weak." It reminds my of something a certain foul mouthed movie critic (Mr. Plinkett) on the YouTube channel Red Letter Media says about logical inconsistencies in movie scripts that you might not consciously notice; at least on a first viewing, because the movie is fast paced or a major action scene follows; "You didn't notice it, but your brain did." Sometimes it's only when you discuss a movie with other people; or in this case a novel, or re-watch or re-read it, that the writing flaws become easily apparent, but something in the back of your mind was already pinging you that something was off.
It's been a while since I read Death Masks, but in that case, Harry figuring out how the plague was going to be unleashed wasn't that difficult, or implausible. He was given a lot of information, it became a matter of adding it up as a good detective should, he didn't need to be an epidemiologist for that. Butters introduced "patient zero," who had the plague on steroids, who happened to be a member of Father Forthill's Order, the theft of the Shroud, the involvement of both the Denarians and the Knights of the Cross, the warnings from the Loa, so putting it all of it together quite plausible, however there is a lot of other stuff going on at the same time that distracts.
As to knowing how the Spear works, yes, Harry had access to Alfred on Demonreach, he is also buds with the Knights of the Cross, along with knowing Father Forthill, all of the above would have information or some. Or perhaps more plausible, because the Spear is what it is, and the care that it goes only to those with enough smarts to get it in the first place, it comes with how to directions. In other words if you know what it is and are clever and strong enough to break it out of the vault, you get the how to knowledge that goes with it. It just happens.
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Maybe he simply asked Bonea. One would assume that a Fallen Angel would have known how to use the devices.
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Maybe he simply asked Bonea. One would assume that a Fallen Angel would have known how to use the devices.
But that would be too funny a conversation not to put in the books.
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Maybe he simply asked Bonea. One would assume that a Fallen Angel would have known how to use the devices.
Yeah, but at this point she is so young she'd just get it confused with a back scratcher or a nose pick.
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It reminds my of something a certain foul mouthed movie critic (Mr. Plinkett) on the YouTube channel Red Letter Media says about logical inconsistencies in movie scripts that you might not consciously notice; at least on a first viewing, because the movie is fast paced or a major action scene follows; "You didn't notice it, but your brain did." Sometimes it's only when you discuss a movie with other people; or in this case a novel, or re-watch or re-read it, that the writing flaws become easily apparent, but something in the back of your mind was already pinging you that something was off.
These two books had so many little things like that, that I didn't need to wait to talk about or reread them to catch some. I still enjoyed them. These two books were probably his worst written books since Fool Moon.
It's been a while since I read Death Masks, but in that case, Harry figuring out how the plague was going to be unleashed wasn't that difficult, or implausible. He was given a lot of information, it became a matter of adding it up as a good detective should, he didn't need to be an epidemiologist for that. Butters introduced "patient zero," who had the plague on steroids, who happened to be a member of Father Forthill's Order, the theft of the Shroud, the involvement of both the Denarians and the Knights of the Cross, the warnings from the Loa, so putting it all of it together quite plausible, however there is a lot of other stuff going on at the same time that distracts.
As to knowing how the Spear works, yes, Harry had access to Alfred on Demonreach, he is also buds with the Knights of the Cross, along with knowing Father Forthill, all of the above would have information or some. Or perhaps more plausible, because the Spear is what it is, and the care that it goes only to those with enough smarts to get it in the first place, it comes with how to directions. In other words if you know what it is and are clever and strong enough to break it out of the vault, you get the how to knowledge that goes with it. It just happens.
Maybe put that in the book? There's this guy I watch on YouTube who says if fans have to come up with answers to plot holes, that's just bad writing. Now plot holes is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence, but depending on one's definition of plot hole, I agree.
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Maybe put that in the book? There's this guy I watch on YouTube who says if fans have to come up with answers to plot holes, that's just bad writing. Now plot holes is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence, but depending on one's definition of plot hole, I agree.
I find a whole lot of plot holes in Peace Talks and Battle Ground when it comes to it. However not
so much in Death Masks, maybe because of my biology background, and maybe because I've seen movies with similar plots. So to me it wasn't too hard to connect the dots as far as the plague goes, but as I said, aside from that, the book seemed to go all over the place. Maybe because Jim was using it to introduce things that would be important down the road.
Susan and Harry have had sex in the past, but this time neither used protection and it was after she was half turned.. Oh in Changes a little bundle of joy just happens to turn up. One other point about that, and I am adding it because it crossed my mind this morning. On one hand Susan seemed to resent Harry getting her pregnant and didn't let him know to keep the child safe... But then she keeps the kid near by her, and names it after Harry's mother for crap sake.. Hello Princess of the Obvious, if it wasn't hard for Arianna to figure out that Eb and Margaret were related, it isn't big a step for her to figure out a kid of Susan's named Maggie was related.. Death Masks also sets up Martin to be the double crossing heavy, which he was down the line. He also encouraged Susan to be with the injured Harry, knowing with the smell of blood and all.. Well, you know.. Shiro hands over his Sword to Harry for safe keeping, not to be a Knight, but as caretaker.. The Sword does nothing until Small Favor which sets Harry up further as custodian when he gains the Sword of Love as well, which also becomes important in Changes, drags Murphy into the mix which climaxes several books later in Skin Game when she breaks the Sword of Faith, and we know where that all led.. Oh also introduces the power of the Artifacts, though we find out later in Skin Game that that Shroud was a fake, the one that Harry nabbed, isn't.
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DM didn't seem all over the place to me.
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DM didn't seem all over the place to me.
But you must admit it was packed with a lot of set ups.
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But that would be too funny a conversation not to put in the books.
Pancakes and spears.“I know two hundred and twenty-seven individual pancake recipes!” Bonnie said. “Sixteen can be made with the current inventory of the kitchen!”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 15). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Bonea was full of points of information that didn’t connect to anything else. She could tell you the particulars of all sorts of secrets of the universe, but she’d have no idea what kind of an effect those secrets could have on the actual world. Which made her . . . someone to be carefully managed.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 14). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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But apparently Harry did not think in asking her what being a Starborn meant.
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But apparently Harry did not think in asking her what being a Starborn meant.
Harry isn't the brightest crayon in the box.
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That is not actually true. Harry is impulsive and as such he does not immediately realizes things, but when he has time to think, he is quite clever. As "Justine" said, he does not look that bright, but he pretty much is. Not a genius, mind you. But he is intelligent.
So he did not ask for the same reason he did not ask many other questions. Because of plot reasons.
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Or to put it simply he's passive to the point where Demonreach arguably has more initiative and interest in the outside world than Harry does.
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Yes, but that is the problem, isn't it. Harry is a P.I. He is supposed to be interested in finding answers. Why he did not some research on his own life? Specially now, as whatever happens to him in the future will probably impact Maggie. And Bonea herself.
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Yes, but that is the problem, isn't it. Harry is a P.I. He is supposed to be interested in finding answers. Why he did not some research on his own life? Specially now, as whatever happens to him in the future will probably impact Maggie. And Bonea herself.
Nobody wants to talk to Harry about the really important stuff. Jim keeps him isolated from information about his mother all the time, he only gets some fragments.
And I also think he is afraid of what he would find sometimes.
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I agree he sometimes is scared but precisely why nobody talks to Harry he should have asked Bonnie.
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I agree he sometimes is scared but precisely why nobody talks to Harry he should have asked Bonnie.
Except Bonnie is also his daughter and he should protect her and help her grow up as a responsible good person. I do not think that sort of questions are exacly good for Bonnie at this point of time. There is a reason he wants to keep her separated from Bob.
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But apparently Harry did not think in asking her what being a Starborn meant.
I was told I was bright when I was young. The way I lived my life said otherwise.
Having said that, Harry has at his beck and call two talking heads. The answer to any question that you can ask about how Harry knows things can be answered by saying Bonea said or Bob said. In the case of Starborns say that Bonea isn't the little child Jim would like you to believe, so Harry asked and she lied either directly or indirectly. Because after all she is the offspring of a Fallen angel named Lasciel. The deceiver.
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I was told I was bright when I was young. The way I lived my life said otherwise.
Having said that, Harry has at his beck and call two talking heads. The answer to any question that you can ask about how Harry knows things can be answered by saying Bonea said or Bob said. In the case of Starborns say that Bonea isn't the little child Jim would like you to believe, so Harry asked and she lied either directly or indirectly. Because after all she is the offspring of a Fallen angel named Lasciel. The deceiver.
All one has to do is refer to the scene where Bonnie and Maggie are making pancakes. Bonnie may have 150 recipes for pancakes in her data base, but she thinks milk is alive because it moves. So whether or not she may have the information on the Spear becomes questionable, she really doesn't have the experience to be a reliable source for that information. She has a lot to learn before she will be reliable, and not so much because her mother was a deceiver.
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I wasn't speaking about what Harry did or didn't do, simply how I justify how he could know.
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I wasn't speaking about what Harry did or didn't do, simply how I justify how he could know.
I understand, what I am saying is Bonnie at this point wouldn't be a very reliable source of information, so I doubt he'd even try to get it from her. With some things, there is general knowledge, heck if anyone has heard of the Spear of Destiny at all they have basic knowledge to begin with. Harry understood upon seeing it what it was,what it meant, and that was what Nic was really after, and he nabbed it. Hades told Harry, only those with the skill and the commitment to use them could get them. Harry realized immediately that the artifacts were weapons, so he passed the first test. Then he said the fate of the weapons is in the hands of the one who found them and understand what they are. I think that opened up quite a bit of knowledge for Harry. Alfred, from his reaction to Harry's request for two of the artifacts in Peace Talks, says to me at any rate that he understands very well what the artifacts are and how they are used. When Harry brought them to the island for safe keeping, I bet he asked a lot of questions.
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It's been a while since I read Death Masks, but in that case, Harry figuring out how the plague was going to be unleashed wasn't that difficult, or implausible.
I wrote plaque, not plague. I suppose I should have said placard instead or plaque from The Cross. Harry came up with the idea of how to use it; or how Mac could use it, out of nowhere. There is nothing in the Dresden books, bible or middle age mythology to give a clue how it could be used. (By middle age mythology I'm referring to the beliefs in the mystical power of numerous pieces of "True Cross," thorns from the Crown of Thorns and many other items of highly questionable authenticity, which were sold to Churches, Kings and nobles during the middle ages. They were treated as holy items but outside the various fake Spears of Longinus, no one said they had some special temporal purpose the holder could take advantage of.)
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I wrote plaque, not plague. I suppose I should have said placard instead or plaque from The Cross. Harry came up with the idea of how to use it; or how Mac could use it, out of nowhere. There is nothing in the Dresden books, bible or middle age mythology to give a clue how it could be used. (By middle age mythology I'm referring to the beliefs in the mystical power of numerous pieces of "True Cross," thorns from the Crown of Thorns and many other items of highly questionable authenticity, which were sold to Churches, Kings and nobles during the middle ages. They were treated as holy items but outside the various fake Spears of Longinus, no one said they had some special temporal purpose the holder could take advantage of.)
Sorry, a lot on my mind at the moment. I agree about the Placard, it was never explained just what is did, they just sort of did at the bar.
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You can take Jin out of the bible belt but you can't take the bible belt out of Jim. The objects were used exactly as you would expect if you look at the crucifixion mythology.
The sign designated Jesus as the King of the Jews. Jesus died on the cross to atone for the sins of man. He died to save them. Which is what is implied for the sign in the book.
The Spear pierced the side of Jesus and released water and blood. And mythological BS aside this is precisely how Harry would have used it in the end. But it was a spear to everything. If I could stick it in the Titan, she would bleed.
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 321). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Except that Jim has an Super Marcone do it with a pocket knife. Everything else is embellishment. In advance Harry has his staff altered by the swartelves. He had Bob, his research assistant. So he had obviously done due diligence and his homework.
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The Spear also allowed him to do the binding further from Demonreach and I think it was important for the binding too, because he used it for make the circle (with Bob). That was not something I expected.
I so want to know if the Spear can kill a Fallen (not only the host, the actual Fallen).
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It's a Spear to anything by Harry's description.
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Yes, but we know sometimes Harry is not a reliable narrator. Still, I think you are right. I have sustained since I first read BG that one of the reasons Marcone did not go for the Eye was the fact that Harry could kill both of them. Yes, Harry was wasted, but it was a large bet. If they were underestimating Harry's remaining power, they would be screw. And both of them knew that Harry has a history of winning against the odds. They also know Harry stubborness. If he managed to gather a little willpower to Forzare the spear, they could die. And I suspect Namshiel is not as brave as Marcone. (On a side note, I also have the theory that Marcone himself did not want the Eye near a Fallen, even if it is a Fallen he was hosting.)
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It's a Spear to anything by Harry's description.
Of course, we still have no clue if it also has the Eye's perma-death capabilities even if Jim reused that "it's an x for anything" description when talking about it.
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Yes, but we know sometimes Harry is not a reliable narrator. Still, I think you are right. I have sustained since I first read BG that one of the reasons Marcone did not go for the Eye was the fact that Harry could kill both of them. Yes, Harry was wasted, but it was a large bet. If they were underestimating Harry's remaining power, they would be screw. And both of them knew that Harry has a history of winning against the odds. They also know Harry stubborness. If he managed to gather a little willpower to Forzare the spear, they could die. And I suspect Namshiel is not as brave as Marcone. (On a side note, I also have the theory that Marcone himself did not want the Eye near a Fallen, even if it is a Fallen he was hosting.)
Can an angel be killed?
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Precisely. An spear for everything, that everything includes, well, everything? a god? a loup-garou? An angel? An archangel? Who knows how reliable can be Harry. But my theory is yes, it can kill anything, even outsiders or achangels. Probably not TWG.
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Can an angel be killed?
The Eye of Balor can do it if they don't block or dodge (which means in all practical terms no they can't be killed).
Well speaking of sweeping through people, so... Ethniu has this superweapon, the Eye of Balor, now that Harry has it is that the kind of weapon that someone even of the level of Mother Winter would appreciate or would she just kind of find that thing quaint and be like "aw that's cute but"?
Oh no, no, that was a weapon of Balor, he was a titan. He was one of the big bads of-he was the big bad of Celtic mythology. But yeah Balor's weapon is something that was so formidable that /the gods/ had to be afraid of it, it was something that-there were multiple stories about it, yeah I mean they're all gonna be impressed. You know at the end of the day when somebody puts a .44 magnum in your face he's got a .44 magnum in your face and that's what Dresden has, the Eye of Balor is a .44 magnum to anybody, it's dangerous.
Is it even like dangerous to Uriel? Or his boss?
If Uriel just stood there in it, yeah, I mean he wouldn't, it could kill him I mean it's- again it's one of those- I mean Uriel is... he's so powerful that he's not even on the scale with everybody else. I mean yeah maybe the Eye of Balor could disintegrate Uriel if Uriel couldn't just immediately teleport anywhere or make the energy go somewhere else or basically do anything at all to defend himself. If he just stood there like a dummy, sure somebody could kill him with the Eye of Balor. He's not going to, freaking archangel.
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I've been thinking something. The Eye is not so impressive is Harry can't use it. And he told Marcone that he couldn't. BUT what if what we were talking about the weapons is true, and Harry just got the user's manual for them when he placed them at the armory at Demonreach? Some sort of side-effect of being the Warden. If that is the case, he would have the user's manual for the Eye now. And perhaps he cannot use it in normal conditions but he knows now how to create the conditions (like, tapping a leyline, for instance). That way he would have an effective grip of the weapon.
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I've been thinking something. The Eye is not so impressive is Harry can't use it. And he told Marcone that he couldn't. BUT what if what we were talking about the weapons is true, and Harry just got the user's manual for them when he placed them at the armory at Demonreach? Some sort of side-effect of being the Warden. If that is the case, he would have the user's manual for the Eye now. And perhaps he cannot use it in normal conditions but he knows now how to create the conditions (like, tapping a leyline, for instance). That way he would have an effective grip of the weapon.
There are prisoners on the island who can use it. ;D
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Yes, at least one who is bound to Harry.
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Is it even like dangerous to Uriel? Or his boss?
If Uriel just stood there in it, yeah, I mean he wouldn't, it could kill him I mean it's- again it's one of those- I mean Uriel is... he's so powerful that he's not even on the scale with everybody else. I mean yeah maybe the Eye of Balor could disintegrate Uriel if Uriel couldn't just immediately teleport anywhere or make the energy go somewhere else or basically do anything at all to defend himself. If he just stood there like a dummy, sure somebody could kill him with the Eye of Balor. He's not going to, freaking archangel.
Really? Jim invents a weapon so powerful it can kill and Archangel and then places it in the hands of the village idiot. A nine foot tall village idiot who leads her chief henchman around with a leash.
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If Uriel just stood there in it, yeah, I mean he wouldn't, it could kill him I mean it's- again it's one of those- I mean Uriel is... he's so powerful that he's not even on the scale with everybody else. I mean yeah maybe the Eye of Balor could disintegrate Uriel if Uriel couldn't just immediately teleport anywhere or make the energy go somewhere else or basically do anything at all to defend himself. If he just stood there like a dummy, sure somebody could kill him with the Eye of Balor. He's not going to, freaking archangel.Really? Jim invents a weapon so powerful it can kill and Archangel and then places it in the hands of the village idiot. A nine foot tall village idiot who leads her chief henchman around with a leash.
A Village idiot who put a beatdown an all star cast of immortals, wizards, heroes and monsters all by herself. And the only one she used the Eye on was Mab.
Even if they had known she had it prior to PT, who do you think is badass enough to have gone to the Formor kingdom and taken it from her?
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A Village idiot who put a beatdown an all star cast of immortals, wizards, heroes and monsters all by herself. And the only one she used the Eye on was Mab.
Even if they had known she had it prior to PT, who do you think is badass enough to have gone to the Formor kingdom and taken it from her?
My complaint is that the Titan didn't turn out to much of a threat as threats go, especially given the buildup. The Fomor killed more people in when they gassed a city to get at a hospital, no Eye needed. Where's the sense of menace? Where is the fear? Jim actually has Marcone rag her about it.“If you had a mind,” Marcone said, “you would have used restraint. You would have arisen from the water with no warning to anyone. You would have unleashed a wave of expendable troops on the city, blown down a building or two, and returned to the sea to watch the havoc unfold.” He shook his head. “I will simply never understand the need some people seem to feel to be proven correct in front of their enemies. It’s quite childish.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 326). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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She had overwhelming power, but her strategy was was kindergarten tantrum 101. Marcone critiques her methods not her power.
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If Uriel just stood there in it, yeah, I mean he wouldn't, it could kill him I mean it's- again it's one of those- I mean Uriel is... he's so powerful that he's not even on the scale with everybody else. I mean yeah maybe the Eye of Balor could disintegrate Uriel if Uriel couldn't just immediately teleport anywhere or make the energy go somewhere else or basically do anything at all to defend himself. If he just stood there like a dummy, sure somebody could kill him with the Eye of Balor. He's not going to, freaking archangel.Really? Jim invents a weapon so powerful it can kill and Archangel and then places it in the hands of the village idiot. A nine foot tall village idiot who leads her chief henchman around with a leash.
The Dresden Files is a land of glass cannons, being able to throw out rocket launcher blasts is way more common than being able to take a rocket to the face and keep on going for example.
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She had overwhelming power, but her strategy was was kindergarten tantrum 101. Marcone critiques her methods not her power.
Yes, village idiot 101.The Dresden Files is a land of glass cannons, being able to throw out rocket launcher blasts is way more common than being able to take a rocket to the face and keep on going for example.
Yeah, but the Eye is the Glass Canon in this case, it's powerful if someone grabs the barrel and says shoot here. That is what pisses me off in the WOJ, because that is precisely what Jim is saying.
Here's the thing. Past antagonists have had palatable menace, you could easily see how they might win and how ugly it would be if they did. The Reds are a perfect example. Every time I think of the King Corb on the leash and the Titan all I can image is the Keystone Cops or the Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight. Anyway, I'll shut up about it.
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Yes, village idiot 101.Yeah, but the Eye is the Glass Canon in this case, it's powerful if someone grabs the barrel and says shoot here. That is what pisses me off in the WOJ, because that is precisely what Jim is saying.
Here's the thing. Past antagonists have had palatable menace, you could easily see how they might win and how ugly it would be if they did. The Reds are a perfect example. Every time I think of the King Corb on the leash and the Titan all I can image is the Keystone Cops or the Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight. Anyway, I'll shut up about it.
You have a point here though. In a sense the Fomor were a closed-off might makes right sort of society. No one could kill Corb or Ethniu so they likely slaughtered their way to the top of the heap and as a result guile kind of died in Fomor society. You can scheme all you want but unless you steal a fusion bomb from a submarine (the sun lighting up the bottom of the sea?) you can't kill them. The defenders are mostly guile heroes or smart villains who stay alive with their brains. There's a strong contrast here that I think Jim may have been trying to play up. If Listen had been running the battle I have no doubt that Millions would have died (I'm assuming the Eye didn't take down planes or fry pacemakers etc.)
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Yes, but that is the problem, isn't it. Harry is a P.I. He is supposed to be interested in finding answers. Why he did not some research on his own life? Specially now, as whatever happens to him in the future will probably impact Maggie. And Bonea herself.
Nobody wants to talk to Harry about the really important stuff. Jim keeps him isolated from information about his mother all the time, he only gets some fragments.
And I also think he is afraid of what he would find sometimes.
Arjan nailed it. At one point Harry says something about how he was only able to gather tidbits about his mother. I think it was when he had that talk with Eb in BR, but I'm not sure. And Harry goes on and on and on about he avoids introspection and thinks he's not a good person. It's very in character for Harry to not ask questions about himself.
I was told I was bright when I was young. The way I lived my life said otherwise.
You ain't the only one.
The Spear also allowed him to do the binding further from Demonreach.
Yeah. Harry wouldn't have defeated Ethniu without it.
Yes, but we know sometimes Harry is not a reliable narrator. Still, I think you are right. I have sustained since I first read BG that one of the reasons Marcone did not go for the Eye was the fact that Harry could kill both of them. Yes, Harry was wasted, but it was a large bet. If they were underestimating Harry's remaining power, they would be screw. And both of them knew that Harry has a history of winning against the odds. They also know Harry stubborness. If he managed to gather a little willpower to Forzare the spear, they could die. And I suspect Namshiel is not as brave as Marcone. (On a side note, I also have the theory that Marcone himself did not want the Eye near a Fallen, even if it is a Fallen he was hosting.)
And not to forget, like Harry and apparently Jim did, Harry had a couple of guns on him at that point.
There are prisoners on the island who can use it. ;D
Also that guy who only has one eye that Harry owes a favor to that was repeatedly called out by that particular feature in the book HARRY GOT AN EXTRA EYE THAT HE HAS NO USE FOR.
Every time I think of the King Corb on the leash and the Titan all I can image is the Keystone Cops or the Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight. Anyway, I'll shut up about it.
One can hope that Jim was laying ground work to make Listen a palatable menace down the line.
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Arjan nailed it. At one point Harry says something about how he was only able to gather tidbits about his mother. I think it was when he had that talk with Eb in BR, but I'm not sure. And Harry goes on and on and on about he avoids introspection and thinks he's not a good person. It's very in character for Harry to not ask questions about himself.
You ain't the only one.
Yeah. Harry wouldn't have defeated Ethniu without it.
And not to forget, like Harry and apparently Jim did, Harry had a couple of guns on him at that point.
Also that guy who only has one eye that Harry owes a favor to that was repeatedly called out by that particular feature in the book HARRY GOT AN EXTRA EYE THAT HE HAS NO USE FOR.
That eye was sacrificed for wisdom. I am sure Odin will loose a lot of wisdom when he puts that other eye in.
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Bad Alias, yes, about the guns. I was so hoping a moment when Marcone eyes the Eye (:-P) and then he looks at Harry and found him pointing a gun to him. Also, I was disappointed he did not use Murphy's gun at all but I supposed that will happen in the future.
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That eye was sacrificed for wisdom. I am sure Odin will loose a lot of wisdom when he puts that other eye in.
Maybe. I'm not so sure myself.
@Dina: Nice turn of phrase. My only real disappointment with these two books is the rampant lack of continuity and plot holes. A lot of the continuity stuff can be explained away. I just don't find most of the explanations I've seen at all satisfying. A lot of the plot holes can be explained later. Maybe Jim will fix it all later. There have been problems like this in the other books, but it feels like there are more in these two books than in all the others combined.
Most of the continuity and plot hole problems could have been fixed without much effort. For example, Jim could have put in a line about how Marcone could get him before he could reach his gun.
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Maybe. I'm not so sure myself.
It runs on hate. It is opposite to reason. Ethniu was a bit unstable and that might have been a factor.
If Odin had just injured his eye he could have grown it back. He is immortal. He does not grow it back. Him not having an eye has meaning.
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Maybe. I'm not so sure myself.
@Dina: Nice turn of phrase. My only real disappointment with these two books is the rampant lack of continuity and plot holes. A lot of the continuity stuff can be explained away. I just don't find most of the explanations I've seen at all satisfying. A lot of the plot holes can be explained later. Maybe Jim will fix it all later. There have been problems like this in the other books, but it feels like there are more in these two books than in all the others combined.
Most of the continuity and plot hole problems could have been fixed without much effort. For example, Jim could have put in a line about how Marcone could get him before he could reach his gun.
Yes, I agree these two books are the worse. Specially PT but the end of BG still feels rushed.
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My complaint is that the Titan didn't turn out to much of a threat as threats go, especially given the buildup. The Fomor killed more people in when they gassed a city to get at a hospital, no Eye needed. Where's the sense of menace? Where is the fear? Jim actually has Marcone rag her about it.
I don't disagree with you. As villains go, Ethniu was something of a letdown. However, I felt that King Korb was an even bigger disappointment. It's obvious that his henchman Listen is a lot smarter than Korb. Also, I don't remember if it was in Peace Talks or Battle Ground, but there is a scene where Harry asks Mab about King Korb, and her reply is that Korb is smarter, tougher, and more devious than Harry; or words to that effect. The problem is that Korb never comes off as any of those things.
Though we didn't see King Korb fight, because he is the King of the Fomor I can picture Korb as being bad news for a mortal wizard to go against one on one, but that's it. Aside from making himself Ethniu's slave; which is a less than impressive power move for a King to make, Korb came off as a complaining, blustering and blubbering idiot. I found it hard not to picture Korb as an evil version of Boss Nass; the leader of the Gungan's in The Phantom Menace.