"We have set our feet upon a darkling path" he murmured. "A road that will grow only more dangerous. Our first steps are crititcal. We must make them with caution."
The cowl turned to Ebenezar and the Gatekeeper said.
"You love the boy Wizard MCCoy. You would fight to defend him. Your own dedication to our cause is not inconsiderable. I respect your choice.
He turned toward LaFortier.
"You question Dresden's loyalty and his ability. You imply that only a bad seed can grow from bad soil. Your concerns are understandable-and if correct, then Dresden poses a major threat to the Council."
He turned to Ancient Mai and inclined the cowl forward a few degrees. The Ancient replied with a slight bow of her own.
"Ancient Mai" The Gatekeeper said "You question his ability to use his power wisely. To judge between right and wrong. "You fear that DuMornes teaching may have twisted him in ways even he cannot yet see. Your fears too are justified."
He turned to the Merlin. "Honored Merlin. You know that Dresden has drawn death and danger upon the Council. You believe that if he is removed so will be that danger. Your fears are understandable but not reasonable. Regardless of what happens to Dresden, the Red Court has struck a blow against the Council too deep to be ignored. A cessation of current hostilities would only be the calm before the storm."
...
"Let him secure the assistance of Winter. If he does that should lay to rest your concerns regarding his ability LaFortier"
LaFortier frowned then nodded at the Gatekeeper. He turned to Ancient Mai.
"Should he accomplish this it should show that he is willing to accept responsibility for his mistake and to work against his own best interests for the greater good of the Council. It should satisfy your concerns ass to his judgement-to make the mistakes of youth is no crime but not to learn from them is. Agreed?"
Ancient Mai narrowed he rheumy eyes but gave the Gatekeeper a precise nod.
"And you honored Merlin. Such a success may do much to alleviate the pressure of the coming war. If securing routes through the Nevernever places the Red Court at a severe enough disadvantage, it may even enable us to avoid it entirely. Surely it would prove Dresden's dedication to the Council beyond a doubt."
...
"Then perhaps their fears are more justified than your affection, Wizard McCoy. We may indeed conclude that his appointment to full Wizard initiate may have been premature."
She touched my face again and said, "I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone. I hope that one day you will forgive me my mistake. But know that I am proud of what you have become. I love you, child."
"I mean no insult by it, but you should know that your ability to comprehend your environment is very strongly defined by your belief in a number of illusions. Time, Truth. Love That kind of thing. It isn't you fault of course-- but it does impose limits upon your ability to percieve and unerstand some matters.
...
She sighed. "Again you have only a partial understanding. But in the interest of expediency yes. You would have to cease living".
...
"because of the circumstances of your birth-because of *why* you were born Harry. Your mother found strength to escape Lord Raith for a *reason*."
...
"He Who Walks Behind *is* an Outsider, Harry. A terrible creature, the most potent of the Walkers, a powerful knight among their ruling entities, But when he came for you, you overthrew hi,."
...
"You have potential to hold great power over them. You may be able to escape the power now held over you. If you are sure it is what you want."
"So" she whispered a moment later. "You have finally come to see what has been before you all this time."[/quote]
...
"He knew certain names. He was not wholly stupid in choosing them or wholly wrong in using them."
mother Summer's bright green eyes narrowed. "Did he..?
"No" croaked Mother Winter "Not that one. But he has seen the adversary and learned one of its names"
...
"So many new futures unwinding"
"Too many Bright ones" Mother Winter said sullenly
"Even you must think better that than empty night."
...
"He is a weapon. Let him be made stronger"
"Or broken"
...
"If you choose to walk with me what is seen cannot be unseen and what is known cannot be unknown. It may harm you.
...
"You may never know a night's peace again. Knowledge is power, young man. Power to do good and power to do harm. Some knowledge can hurt. Some can kill."
...
"Even if it may haunt you? Harm You? Isolate you?"
"JUST TELL ME WHOSE SKULL TO CREAK WITH MY CLUB DAMMIT!"
"Still I can't recall the last time a wizard of your age managed the trip however it was done. You take after your mother."
I blinked "You knew her?"
"Those of us who spend any amount of time wlaking the Ways tend to develop a certain amount of camaraderie. We would have dinner every so often compare notes of our walks. And there were several of us who were friends of Ebenezar who.. took it upon ourselces to watch over her."
...
"You've become aware of the adversary" he said his one one of firm approval. "Excellent. I was certain your particular pursuits would get you killed long before you got a chance to lean."
...
"to say nothing of the problems you've created for yourself that you haven't found out about yet."
...
"Wait" I said "What problems? I haven't been trying to create problems:
"Oh" he said waving a hand. "You've danced about in the shadows at the edge of life now young man. That's no small thing, to go into those shadows and come back again-- you've no idea the kind of attention you've attracted."
...(Outsider lo down)
...
"I know precisely how it feels to be where you are... Precisely"
....
"I will settle matters between you and the Council which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to-- and that isn't much"
"I'm sure it isn't an uncommon play among wizards" I said
Something in his eye flashed, an amused thought that went by almost before I could see it.
"Fewer try it than you might think"
...
"Nothing that significant just happens, Dresden"
...
"I'm aware of how important it is that the island be well managed. Most of the people who came to your party in Mexico are."
By which he meant the Grey Council.
...
"Wizard... you have been dead and returned. It has marked you. It had opened doors and paths that you do not yet know exist, and attracted the attention of beings who formerly would never have taken note of your insignifance
"Meaning what?" I asked
There was no humour at ll in his face. "Meaning that now more than ever you are a fulcrum. Meaning that your life is about to become very, very interesting."
"Every couple or three wizard generations" Ebenezar said "the stars line up just right and what amounts to a spotlight plays over the earth for a few hours. Any child born within that light--"
...
"Power against the Outsiders" the old man growled "Among other things that their minds can't be magically tainted by contact with anything from Outside. Which means..."
(fight with Outsiders in which Harry has the penny dropped)
"Not until I get something on this whole starborn thing."
...
"I told you You were born at the right time and place. As a result you.. He sighed as if struggling to find an explanation. "Your life force resonates at a frequency that is the mirror opposite and cancellation of the Outsiders. They can't take away your free will. They're vulnerable to your power. Hell you can punch them and they'll actually feel pain from it.
...
"This starborn thing. It happens all the time?"
"Once every six hundred and sixty-six years."
"Why?" I asked him "What's it for? What's coming?"
"Lessons over for tonight. I already said more'n I should've"
Was that why Nemesis for example had revealed itself to me but had never actually attacked me in an effort to take control of my thoughts and actions? Because it actually *couldn't*? It made sense grouped with my previous experiences with Outsides, where others had been disalbed by their attacks while I had still been capable of taking action. It meant that not only could I resist their influence but I could go up against these things, mind to mind, without fear of short-circulating my brain along the way.
"He is *exactly* my weapon she hissed "By his own choice. Which is more than *your* people ever gave him. And they call the Sidhe wicked and deceitful."
I blinked and shot a glance at Ebenezar
The old man wouldn't meet my eyes.
...
"Immortality offers a significant advantage but it is no substitute for intelligence. Remember that young wizard"
Ebenezar scowled and opened his mouth.
"Should it for some bizarre reason ever be necessary" Mab said smoothly before he could speak.
I stared back and forth between the pair of them for a second.
Yeah. Time for things to change.
"Their immaculate beardlinesses have you in the dark even now? As one starborn to another I must say it seems unseemly in the extreme."
...
"I would tell you to ask of your own White Council what they aren't telling you, what they bred you for, and what they expect you to do."
...
"Ill be open with you star-born."
"He's got a different set of priorities."
"Because he's starborn" I guessed
Listens to Wind looked at me sharply.
...
"There's some secrets that do worse than get you killed. A whole hell of a lot worse."
...
"I'll be your advocate. I'll speak on your behalf to the others"
...
"Thats how big this is boy. I a senior wizard of the White Council don't think I'm smart enough to make this call alone"
...
"The people I need to talk to? Make it a year."
He looked uncomfortable. "Lot of the wizards who matter are near the end. Hanging on hard."
I tilted my head at him "Why?"
"Not the right erson time or place to tell starborn.
I pursed my lis. "Six hundred and sixty sic years" I said experimentally
River's craggy brows rose itself a feat of superhuman strenth "Huh" he said "You learned some things"
"I learnt that" I said
"We pretty close to that time" he said "Kinda promised not to tell you anything. Sucks. Necessary."
...
"There's plenty that you don't know yet. And maybe this story isn't mine to tell."
"Starborn are for the Master"
"How many starborn are there wandering about this close to the endga-"
"But I don't like you. I think you are dangerous" His mouth twisted. "But I am no longer convinced you these things out of malice. I think you lack discipline and judgement. You have repeatedly demonstrated your willingness to put yourself in harm's way to protect others. As much as it galls me to admit it, I don't think you have any evil intentions. I think your questionable actions are the result of arrogance and poor judgement. In ther end it matters little why you do it. But I cannot in good conscience condemn you for it without giving you some sort of chance to prove me wrong."It's basically the entire journal entry so reread and enjoy. It's a great addition to the lore:
And also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn't a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father's approval.
It didn't work out so well.
Well yeah there's only one guy who can soulgaze with a kraken and the kraken's scared of him, right.
Well essentially yeah. That was more a starborn thing but anyway. There you go free one for the audience.
Alright, so, then as much as we can get about Nemesis now that we can see it's taken someone particularly close to Dresden and his brother. Is there really just one way that it spreads from person to person/being to being or are there particular requirements that have to be met?
Not terribly. The only limit it has is how many places it can be at once, it can only be in so many places at once.
But it's more than a couple because we've seen at least a few at the same time.
More than a couple but there's a limit.
Less than forty thousand starborn.
Less than forty thousand starborn, correct. The whole point of the starborn is that they don't have to put up with the nonsense from the outsiders, stuff like Nemesis taking them over.
Priscellie: How long have starborns been a thing? Is it recent millennia or much further back?
Jim: Oh for many many many many many moons, as long as anyone remembers, including among the supernatural memories. That's been going since creation got started, it's sort of a well you'll see what it is later when we talk about it more.
How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.
Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?
Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...
Priscellie: Oh god. *laughs*
Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.
Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?
Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.
Priscellie: Is that the only way out?
Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because amon the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I thing he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.
Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?
Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.
She touched my face again and said, "I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone. I hope that one day you will forgive me my mistake. But know that I am proud of what you have become. I love you, child."
‘The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures: he
leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul: He leads me in the paths of
righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of
death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou
prepares a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anoints my head with oil; my
cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell
in the House of YHVH forever.'
I'll add some pieces. Harry was raised to be a sociopath. Isolated and abused.Do you think his star born nature contributed to the treatment he received, or was the cause?
Butcher may have set the stage in Grave Peril when he has Harry go berserk and burn down the mansion. Harry stops his heart from the stress of the magic he uses.
This happens again in Blood Rites. Eb tells him that Raith killed his mother and again he goes into a berserker rage and Eb must squeeze his burnt hand to stop him.
In Changes he loses two minutes of time when he triggers the bloodline curse and kills the vampires. And people world wide have nightmares.
Finally then Battle Ground and the berserker fury overtakes Harry once again and the sword hurts him to stop him.
If you wish you may want to add this quote from Blood Rites
We may know where the plot was laid. Eb refers to what I assume was the genesis, which is the meeting where Arianna discovers the relationship between Eb and Margaret. All of the player were there. Raith, Eb, Arianna and Margaret.
In Journal it’s Destroyer capitalised, there is a whole page on Wikipedia about Destroyer Gods and they list 15 that may be what is meant. A Starborn has the potential to become a Destroyer God, like Shiva or Ahriman.
That may be what Drakul is, a Starborn who became a Destroyer god and then had to step down like Odin, but for different reasons, and got stuffed into a human body .Erlik is a good match, with Junior being one of his sons (god’s of evil, darkness, chaos, discord etc)
Kemmler, no, but not for want of trying, and the Darkhallow is the mechanism for both Drakul to regain his Destroyer godhood, and for Harry to become a Destroyer in his own right, which explains why Mavra wanted the Darkhallow, for Drakul, and with Journal being written after Dead Beat, Morgan MUST have made that connection. Would this mean Cowl is also a Starborn from a previous cycle like Drakul? It would certainly suggest Cowl is not Drakul .
Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?
Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...
Priscellie: Oh god. *laughs*
Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.
Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?
Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.
Priscellie: Is that the only way out?
Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because amon the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I thing he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.
Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?
Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.
It may be something like the Darkhallow works best for a Starborn, or it is the missing piece Kemmler overlooked. If so Corpsetaker and Grevane etc may not have succeeded. One has to wonder why Kemmler never used it, or in fact did he use it but it didn’t fully work?. His last incarnation was far more powerful than he is portrayed in a Fistful of Warlocks, but not god level and he didn’t become immortal. Is that the difference?, a Starborn mortal can become immortal using it? Without a Mantle?
Both the Darkhallow and the killing of Immortals are linked to Halloween, as is Harry’s birthday. Is that the connection?
Harry's rage as a symptom of Star Born could be relevant it could explain why Morgan tried to provoke Harry as much as possible/ If he can't control his rage he can't wield the power of Star Born responsibly.
I also agree Harry's childhood and how he was raised was text book to create someone with rage and trust issues. Ironcallly or tragically I've been watching some Good Will Hunting clips. Will the main character has some analogies. Child genius grew up in the system was abused by it, only trusts a limited circle of friends who he knows will back him up in a fight. Still has a desire for a strong and kind father figure.
So how much of that is just psychological human of growing up abused and how much is Dresden potentially going dark side. Probably a bit of both.
Kemmler got closer then most. I don't doubt he was one of the few Wizards who made it back from death like Vadderung says. There's a woj on Kemmler being the Warden before last and White Council scrambled to make sure he never reached the island. It didn't occur to me because I was focused on Star Born stuff not Warden stuff, but I'll add it here and in the original post now that I think of it.
I don't think Cowl is Star Born. I think he's Simon Pietrovich so outside of the 666. I don't think you necessarily have to be Star Born to pull off Dark Hallow. Otherwise Corpsetaker and Grevane would be Star Born candidates as well.
Thanks Yuillegan!
I dunno about how directly that bible verse applies. I mean Jim isn't shy about Christian influence, but we usually only get the bible parallels when the Knights or even more specifically the Carpenters get involved.
As for telling Harry the truth. Their has to be some sort of personal betrayal to it for Ebenezar to feel so guilty about it, and it has to be more major then being Blackstaff, Being Grandfather and finding out Thomas is his Grandson. The last one was still fresh and there was still something that makes him hesitate.
I like the idea of Corpsetaker and Grevane failing anyway despite all their efforts during the Dark Hallow, and they may be greedy mad and power hungry to be arrogantly believe they could ull it off regardless. Cowl though is a little more centred I mean at the very least he ponders on whether or not he is insane and if so how would he know.
Oh and also I added the Rashid Senior Council discussion from Summer Knight cause I thought it might be relevant.
The general theme was always the same: dead children. The world in flames. Terror and death spreading across the globe in an unstoppable wave, destroying anything resembling order or civilization.This may have been the Merlin's plan in a nutshell. But the Reds weren't the original target. The rages when they overtake Harry involve something like this.
I don’t remember what happened when the ritual went off. There’s a blank spot in my head about two minutes wide. I had no desire whatsoever to find out what was there.
I had the power and the resolve to bring such a tide of magic against him that he would be utterly destroyed. I would lay him low and make him howl for mercy before I tore him apart. He deserved nothing less.This brings to mind the Norse Berserker. And in the rages he means to use magic to kill, something that Lea tells up that Justin was attempting to teach him.
This brings to mind the Norse Berserker. And in the rages he means to use magic to kill, something that Lea tells up that Justin was attempting to teach him.
They must all live pretty long lives or are immortal because if only one is born every 666 years, there shouldn't be that many around.
No there are multiple Starborn in any one sequence but when Kemmler was last around it was close to the end of the 666 year sequence, so the only known Starborn from a previous sequence is Drakul, who even Kemmler probably didn’t fancy taking on. Time winnows them down. Drakul may not be immortal in that he can be killed other than on Halloween, but may be long lived just like most Fae who are not immortal, or White Court Vampires and is still immensely powerful and resilient. Immortality is the next step up and godhood the next step up from that. It stands to reason therefore as a stepping stone to godhood, you siphon off another beings immortality, hence the Erl King being summoned.
It may be though that you can do it if you body swap a Starborn, but you have to have one available to Bodyswap and the new batch wouldn’t be born for nearly a decade after his last reported death. The only known surviving Starborn from a previous sequence is Drakul. Good luck trying to steal his body, especially with the White Council baying for your blood
Indeed, but it must matter more for star born than regular beings. Otherwise why would everyone keep the knowledge so secret?
Or using the Star Wars metaphor, "One must not give into the dark side of the Force." That is why a Jedi has to keep his or her emotions under control and not be too connected emotionally to anyone.
They have great power, but if they lose their temper and really cut loose with it, they start going
down a dark road and turn into someone like Darth Vader.
No there are multiple Starborn in any one sequence but when Kemmler was last around it was close to the end of the 666 year sequence, so the only known Starborn from a previous sequence is Drakul, who even Kemmler probably didn’t fancy taking on. Time winnows them down. Drakul may not be immortal in that he can be killed other than on Halloween, but may be long lived just like most Fae who are not immortal, or White Court Vampires and is still immensely powerful and resilient. Immortality is the next step up and godhood the next step up from that. It stands to reason therefore as a stepping stone to godhood, you siphon off another beings immortality, hence the Erl King being summoned.I'd say Drakul is about as mortal/immortal as Vadderung - though likely for different reasons. But both seem to use it the same way i.e. to influence events at a local level. Vadderung was clearly a major power once yet chooses to be a bit more mortal so that he can stay in the game. I'd say Drakul also does the same thing. Jim has compared them both a lot - particularly regarding their multiple identities throughout history. It seems to be a choice to do with mortals that makes mortals much simpler to deal with.
Ref: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50129.msg2289460.html#msg2289460Almost certainly Justin knew about Harry, given his ties to Margaret. And I doubt it was some accident he picked up Elaine. So I would say it's more likely than not that he knew at least of her potential...assuming she is one. Maggie Le Fay seems to have been friends with a great many Wardens (Morgan, Luccio, Justin) despite her animosity with the Council in general. I would say she was rather like Harry. Liked by some, feared by some, hated by some, but the achievements are respected (even if the individual isn't always). The way it looks though is she might have been quite a bit more of a piece of work than Harry. And considering her respect by a great many darker and more vile beings and individuals...I would say she did some pretty questionable stuff. More than Harry at any rate.
The above is a post I made a while back about Harry, Elaine, and Justin DuMorne.
Did Justin know that Harry is a starborn? Did Justin know that Elaine is a potential starborn? If so, how does that tie into his relationship with Margaret LeFay?
Margaret LeFay set out to have a starborn child, and tried to make him as powerful as possible. Did she learn how to have a starborn child from Justin DuMorne, or with Justin DuMorne?
There are so many questions about what happened back then.
APG
Just an observation. Somebody was looking for special children and using the courts and other institutions to find them. This has been a recurring theme in the books. Elaine was probably picked specifically because she was similar to Harry.
Is Elaine another candidate to wield power over Outsiders (the way Harry supposedly is)?
A: Yes. There’s a reason Justin picked the two of them. (Editor's note: The original asker posted this clarification)
Quote from: laura118b on August 23, 2010, 08:01:14 PM
…I asked him the question :)
The full question was if he had stated in the past, during an interview, that Elaine also was a candidate to have the potential to wield power over Outsiders. His longer answer was yes, he had said that before, that Harry and Elaine are just a few months apart age wise so for all intensive purposes the same age. He then told me that was one of the reasons that Justin had picked both of them to adopt, it wasn't just random kids with power. The key word in my question and his answer was potential.
There is a certain level of Butcher being Butcher in all of this. My mother could be Starborn for as much specificity as he gives. But obviously birth date isn't sufficient in and of itself. Where you are when you were born seems to be important. So the date is knowable but the location may not be and the only way to know is to test for it. Or maybe Margaret figured it out. Which might explain why Malcolm wasn't at the birth.
If you want to go all tin hat, the fight with Justin may have been that test. Put Harry on the run and see what happens when he crosses paths with an Outsider. If he's Starborn he passes, if he isn't, he gets eaten. Easy Peasy and here is your guaranteed Genuine Starborn Certificate.
I don't think a body would do Kemmler or anybody any good. A body is a body, there is more to being a starborn than that I think. The skills don't carry over, remember Luccio in a new body, she still was a wizard, but she lost the skill to forge Warden's swords to match the skills and talents of the Warden wielding it. If it were as simple as switching out a body, you'd think the Corpsetaker would have latched on to one long ago for a chance to be starborn.
There is more to Vadderung than just the Kringle Mantle that makes him immortal.
There was, but he took a deliberate step down to stay in the game as a mortal, probably in exchange for Soulfire from the White God and the crafty bugger figured out to still do so and regain his immortality through the White God mandated Kringle Mantle. It’s not his immortality or the ability to wield Soulfire which makes him formidable, it’s his smarts. That’s the real edge he has over Drakul.
Just an observation. Somebody was looking for special children and using the courts and other institutions to find them. This has been a recurring theme in the books. Elaine was probably picked specifically because she was similar to Harry.The White Council often seems like they wouldn't be much good navigating the mortal systems...but they clearly have the wealth to have multiple law firms on retainer. So they are one possibility (or at least someone who was White Council, particularly if they were younger i.e. Justin).
We don't know about Cowl, if it weren't for Bob, Harry, and Sue, he would have pulled off Darkhallow.. So is Cowl starborn? What happened to him anyway? He hasn't been heard from since White Night and had given the impression of being a major player.I think being blown half-way to Hell probably has kept him side-lined. Given his extreme likely hood of being Black Council or whatever, and how much they are behind the scenes movers, I'd say that's reason enough to not be seen. Although I do miss the character. The Doylist reason is probably that Jim just couldn't fit him in the other books, his character isn't needed for the story so far.
There is a certain level of Butcher being Butcher in all of this. My mother could be Starborn for as much specificity as he gives. But obviously birth date isn't sufficient in and of itself. Where you are when you were born seems to be important. So the date is knowable but the location may not be and the only way to know is to test for it. Or maybe Margaret figured it out. Which might explain why Malcolm wasn't at the birth.True enough, frustrating as it is. I think the location is extremely significant. And I would bet dollars to donuts that it's Chicago that's the place. No idea how much. But given that there were 40,000-50,000 star born I'd say it was anyone in that area. I'd assume it was night time. It's hard to imagine that many beings all rounded up and prepared but it's possible. Most rituals of some sort of blessing/transformation require a preparation of the thing being changed - so I expect Harry (and whoever else) might have been prepared earlier. The way Ebenezar puts it (and the number given) seem to suggest it's all those born in that area, at the right time. However. As we know being mortal isn't a requirement so obviously some beings are turned into star born after being "born" - perhaps long after that.
If you want to go all tin hat, the fight with Justin may have been that test. Put Harry on the run and see what happens when he crosses paths with an Outsider. If he's Starborn he passes, if he isn't, he gets eaten. Easy Peasy and here is your guaranteed Genuine Starborn Certificate.
The difference between Vadderung and Drakul is the Kringle Mantle, which like the Queens renders him immortal not merely ageless and extremely difficult to kill, like for example the Redcap. Otherwise they would be on a equal footing. The other difference is that Odin has access to Soulfire and this is required to create Einenjharen, the only way it seems to safely resurrect the dead appears to be Soulfire (e.g. Jesus and Lazarus). Drakul’s son created the original Black Court Vampires, perhaps in response, using Hellfire?I am not so sure about that. I think Kringle is immortal but not Vadderung, and so being Kringle is what keep Vadderung ticking along. I think it's an important difference myself.
Was Harry born in Chicago?
No he bounced around with his father till he was 6 then the system then Justin the ebenezaes farm. Hitching for a year or 2 before settling in Chicago.
As for vadderung. Kringle is what he does so as not to age power of belief of children each year sustains his immortality.
As for his use of Soulfire yeah woj from the Dresden FIles podcast. But it should be noted the naagloshii called it 'the fires of creation' so maybe not just exclusively the white God.
All that incurious Harry has to do is figure out where Kringle got the Mug. He actually has something to use a locator spell on.
It's never been stated where he was born...but considering Chicago is the centre of everything I would say it's more likely than not.I keep looking for three wise men and the Star of Bethlehem. Just in case you haven't noticed the imagery.
If you think about it in a Doylist sense working backwards, where else makes sense? Where else would you put 40,000 beings that is also significant to the series?
That rules out locations important only to Harry (e.g. Hog's Hollow or whatever). Harry's early years are very vague - we don't know where Margaret was when Harry was born (although likely this is kept secret for a reason). However, given that Lord Raith the White King was in Chicago with Margaret Le Fay (at one of the White Court's main locations at the Raith Chateau) - he even has a picture of her there, and her other son spent most (if not all his life in Chicago) - it seems more likely than not.
But I am open to other suggestions.
(1) The mug appears to be actual matter and not composed of ectoplasm, so it isn’t a common conjuration like with conjouritis. That means putting in enough energy to create the matter from scratch and that is prohibitive see e=MC 2.
Malcolm is a spirit, and does not possess even the ghost of the Coffee mug, but does know it’s importance to Harry without invading his mind. He may have known what happened to his stuff as a spirit. He then tells Kringle about the Mug and where it is and Kringle gets it.Doesn't matter, even as a spirit, Malcolm is Harry's loving father, and as loving parents everywhere if asked by Kringle, would know what would comfort Harry the most. Especially when you consider how close they were in life, it was just father and son until his death. He tells Kringle and Kringle gets his elves to put it together to present to Harry on Christmas Eve.
Gifts from Kringle or Santa are usually made of actual matter, not ectoplasm. In the real world you are correct about creating matter from scratch, but this is the Dresdenverse.. It is also a gift from Santa, and a bit of a miracle, and as such all practical rules of the universe to out the window.Doesn't matter, even as a spirit, Malcolm is Harry's loving father, and as loving parents everywhere if asked by Kringle, would know what would comfort Harry the most. Especially when you consider how close they were in life, it was just father and son until his death. He tells Kringle and Kringle gets his elves to put it together to present to Harry on Christmas Eve.
I keep looking for three wise men and the Star of Bethlehem. Just in case you haven't noticed the imagery.Wizards are often known as "the Wise" as that's part of the meaning of the word, and are sometimes referred to as the three Magi, so I'd guess three wizards.
Peace Talks page 271 Malcom is wearing a Chicago Cubs baseball cap, indicating it is is hometeam. The same memory sequence has Malcolm doing gigs in Colorado and Ohio, suggesting my earlier premise that Malcolm’s home base was Chicago and that he worked the Midwest is valid and that Harry was born there in Cook County Hospital is also valid. This may suggest that the Mug from Christmas Eve was actually stored by a friend/theatrical agent of Malcom based in Chicago and that there is a hoard of Dresden memorabilia to be uncovered by Harry.
“Be comforted, my Knight: I chose you for times precisely such as these, when an elemental of destruction is what is most needed.”(-No using red please, mod team :))
There’s another Destroyer quote in Battle Ground page 51Quote“Be comforted, my Knight: I chose you for times precisely such as these, when an elemental of destruction is what is most needed.”
So the White Council and Mab clearly know what he is a Destroyer, an elemental of destruction which likely comes from the Sacred game as the primary weapon of one is fire and force. In classical terms Harry is a Salamander. It’s weaknesses are ice and poison. Could the Winter Mantle actually be a moderating influence on Harry’s elemental nature, channeling it and that is the struggle he has with it? Creating a balance in some respects whilst it creates an imbalance in others?
This makes me think that it is easier to gain immortality through a Mantle rather than through any other means.I think that is the only way for an ordinary mortal to gain immortality. Wizards naturally live a much longer life span that vanilla humans, but eventually even they grow older and die. Denarians are the closest I think to ordinary humans gaining immortality as long as they keep the coin. The Holy Knights are mere mortals like the rest of us, even if they remain Knights for years like Michael and Shiro, eventually get old and will die someday. I'm not sure whether or not White Court Vampires are immortal, they live a very long time, but I don't remember it being said they are immortal. I don't think either the Summer or Winter Knight mantle gives immortality along with it, because the Knights remain mortals, they are not transformed into Fae like the Queens. So in the case of Molly, she gained immortality with her Lady's Mantel, but the price for it may be her soul.
Harry would not have become immortal by picking up the coin. At least the other Denarians do not seem to be immortal because they are dying all the time. Maybe Blood on his Soul (or what the name of the evil Bigfoot was) is immortal, but it is not from the coin, since his first host died just fine.
The list of immortal "people" is pretty short.
It's never been stated where he was born...but considering Chicago is the centre of everything I would say it's more likely than not.
If you think about it in a Doylist sense working backwards, where else makes sense? Where else would you put 40,000 beings that is also significant to the series?
That rules out locations important only to Harry (e.g. Hog's Hollow or whatever). Harry's early years are very vague - we don't know where Margaret was when Harry was born (although likely this is kept secret for a reason). However, given that Lord Raith the White King was in Chicago with Margaret Le Fay (at one of the White Court's main locations at the Raith Chateau) - he even has a picture of her there, and her other son spent most (if not all his life in Chicago) - it seems more likely than not.
But I am open to other suggestions.
As far as we know immortals can be killed by the eye and on Halloween. And some? Maybe only the fairy queens, can be killed on the stone table.
This is in contrast to e.g. Denarians who can be killed all the time and by normal means.
Bob is clear in the distinction in Cold Days in the conversation where he tells Harry he cannot kill Maeve because she is immortal.
I guess you could argue that the coins are very convenient to transport to the site of the darkhallow, but of course eating a fallen is probably too much for most even with a lot of preparation.
I did a back of envelope sonewhere else on here.Which is so strange, I think, as celestial movements can play out over much longer periods of time. But I do think you're right in that it's only a special hour or so that happens, and that's where the 40-50 thousand number comes in. That being said...it's surely not just births, as Jim hinted that you only need to be in the right (wrong?) place at the right time (which Jim thinks makes you really unlucky). Being born is by no means the only way to become a star born it would appear.
It's a window of time. When Harry was born- circa 1970- that number represents something like a half hour or hour (I misremember) of births.
It’s the difference between not agelessness and immortality.This is essentially correct as far as I can tell. Although I believe Bob explained that it was the entire battlefield of Chicago-over-Chicago that was charged/prepared for the killing of Immortals, not just the Stone Table. The Stone Table seems to have other purposes, namely around the transfer of energy.
Denarians, Vamps, sidhe are ageless, time doesn’t diminish them, but they can be killed with varying degrees of effort.
Immortals on the hand can’t (they don’t like to talk about Halloween) the Queen’s Mantles are constructs and had a back door built into it the Stone Table.
Aside from the Queens, the other Immortals we have seen are The Kringle Mantle, Erl King, the Naagloshii, Uriel, the Angel of Death, Ethnui, Hades, the Fallen. If the Darkhallow requires an immortal there aren’t that many roaming around these days, and some are just too powerful (the Mothers, Hades, Uriel, the Angel of Death, Ethnui, the Fallen) to even try to summon. The Erl King was probably the weakest and most accessible. The Ladies are ‘weak’ but are an artificial construct so would they work? Kemmler could have undertaken a Darkhallow using Maeve only to find to his horror he was the new Winter Lady subject to Winters rules, and being physically reshaped to the task.
Which is so strange, I think, as celestial movements can play out over much longer periods of time. But I do think you're right in that it's only a special hour or so that happens, and that's where the 40-50 thousand number comes in. That being said...it's surely not just births, as Jim hinted that you only need to be in the right (wrong?) place at the right time (which Jim thinks makes you really unlucky). Being born is by no means the only way to become a star born it would appear.
You are thinking the entire Earth, but what if it’s like a solar eclipse?, there is a path? where it plays over only part of the earth for an hour the witching hour), and Chicago was the only big city in the path this time (Romania last time for Drakul’s current body). If that can be plotted then it can be predicted, you merely need to time the birth for that specific hour in that pathway. Easy using time dilation of the Ways
Margaret had previously had a child, so she was not a first time mother, so a shorter labour was likely. Hitting a particular day would involve her using the ways temporal effects to get her due date to Halloween, most likely delaying labor, so she ‘overshoots’ her due date. From then she would need a doctor to induce labor, a little bit of Earth magic to squeeze the baby out with a focussed gravitational field (her father and her son both did that spell) and Bob’s your uncle. The child is Starborn as soon as it is independent of Margaret, and the entropy curse bites on Margaret and she uses her Death Curse on Raith.
Margaret couldn't bargain using something she didn't have and didn't control. Lea would be a fool for taking any such bargain.
The in utero immunity? The Leansidhe, the price? the first born female of her line, little Maggie.
Margaret couldn't bargain using something she didn't have and didn't control. Lea would be a fool for taking any such bargain.
Almost certainly she hid Margaret and given the timing, whatever deal she had died at birth.
WOJ has it that Margaret made a bargain with Lea and that when Harry finds out what it is he is going want to kill Lea. There is nothing further Lea can want from Harry, except Maggie. Harry’s own bargain with Lea was passed to Mab, but the blood debt Margaret incurred would be separate.
Or considering the population of the earth, it could be millions born in the special hour. So it stands to reason that it is a lot more complicated than it appears to conceive and give birth to a star born. Lash hinted that it was to Harry, she made it clear that it took a lot of planning on Margaret's part for it to happen. It is also clear that in her choice of Malcolm to be her star child's father Margaret was trying to break the mold for the norm of what a star child is.
It strikes me that Listens, another Starborn knows Chicago well enough to be a forward planner for the Fomor. Another Chicago native? Was he responsible for the books and belts in SF and FM? Did he plan the way for Cowl in GP? Was he a Red Court agent until there was no Red Court and the go to the Fomor? And was he a Black Council agent all along?I think you might be right about Listen. He is just has too much on the ball.
You are thinking the entire Earth, but what if it’s like a solar eclipse?, there is a path? where it plays over only part of the earth for an hour the witching hour), and Chicago was the only big city in the path this time (Romania last time for Drakul’s current body). If that can be plotted then it can be predicted, you merely need to time the birth for that specific hour in that pathway. Easy using time dilation of the Ways.
Remember everything boils down to Chicago, Changes is the only book where something significant in the Supernatural world happens outside of Chicago.
Not enough data. There is nothing in the text that indicates where Harry was born. The closest we get to that moment is placing Margaret and Malcolm at the Lincoln Monument just before Harry is born. Given the 666 year cycle it could be some type of comet or asteroid. There is no way to know. Butcher could be basing it on something like Highlander, there can be only one! I know one thing. He has a fascination with vampires.That is true. As I said earlier though, I would say on balance of probabilities it's likely in America, and Chicago seems to be the most significant place in America in the series. No idea why that is (in terms of in-universe reasons, obviously we know the Doylist reasons that Jim needed to set the series there). There are enough references to Highlander that I am sure that it has something to do with everything...that being said there isn't much real-world myth to back up Highlander and from what I have seen of Highlander and researched about the greater universe it is in, there isn't a lot that links to the series. In fact, it's so general it could link to anything. However, there is a thing about the source of immortality in Highlander being linked to a cosmic conjunction where literally every planet in the universe somehow "lines" up.
Presumably it only affects those born "in the that light" i.e. the spot light (which I am sure would occur during the night/early morning). So I would presume it's quite literally a cosmic light, hitting one side of the planet. That would include all of North America (USA, Canada), Central America, Cuba and the Central American islands, Mexico, the most nothern parts of South America (i.e. parts of Brazil etc), parts of the Artic Circle, the western part of Russia, parts of Japan, parts of China, parts of Korea, parts of New Zealand and Australia (and a number of Pacific Islands), and some parts of South-East Asia.
My guess is though it isn't all of them surely, for the number would be higher. It will be a literal thing like "born under a blood moon" type of thing. Will it matter if the births are indoors? Not sure. Will the babies need to be sanctified? Not sure. Will those who are in the light who are not babies be affected? Unclear.
So many questions.
Indeed, that is why I think that the "conceiving" of a star born is at least as complicated as time of birth and place of birth. It is obvious that Harry's birth was no accident, once she met Malcolm, Margaret did a great deal of planning to bring Harry's birth about. What is more I think Malcolm did a lot more than just supply the sperm at the right time. I say this because in both his dream/soul gaze sequences when Harry talks with his father and his mother they both express regret for what they put on him, an innocent, by their plans.The problem is that how do we reconcile the special circumstances of the star born creation with the fact that 40-50,000 were created in a single cycle.
The problem is that how do we reconcile the special circumstances of the star born creation with the fact that 40-50,000 were created in a single cycle.
Is this usual per cycle? Is it more? Less?
Hence why I think Chicago is the necessary location...rather than 50,000 different babies being prepared in different locations.
The other thing about Chicago is that it appears to have become the mortal base for a number of supernatural nations and powers, the Swartalves, White Court, Winter and Summer (both original knights were local and their replacements continue to be) a Knight of the Cross and the Twylyth Teg (poor Gwyn, he should have joined the Accords, perhaps the survivors will). This may have been in anticipation of the searchlight hitting Chicago during the witching hour and the appearance of Starborn in the City, jockeying for position to influence the Starborn and events for the benefit of their nations/causes.That's interesting about the birth stones. I am not so sure that is what Jim is planning re: stars and stones but it's intriguing in and of itself.
The other thing thinking on Stars and Stones. Could the Stones refer to birthstones? Harry (and all other Starborn) have the birthstone of Opal, the same gem Molly used in the pinky ring simulacra for Harry in Peace Talks. coincidence?
...
Or is that resolved by most of the babies born during that cycle don't make it to adulthood? Fifty thousand star born babies born around the world might work, but not all in Chicago, world wide there are only 350,000 kids born each day. Also apparently September through December are the highest birth months.. My own four grand-kids fit into that one, and they were all born in Chicago.Perhaps if we think of it more like radiation it might work better. Potentially anyone could have been affected in Chicago during the 666 conjunction but we don't know exactly who or when. Jim knows it's 50k or so...but how many others know?
Also in centuries past, if you take into that number not just the rate of live births but infant mortality have to be taken into account. Accordingly at least half of the children born as star born would have died 666 years ago before reaching puberty, I did look it up, today only about 2.9% die before reaching puberty today. According to what I read, the birth rate hasn't changed that much, but the rate of survival has, that is why we now have a population problem.
Anyway, I go back to my original premise, if the birth rate for a star born is that high, even if it takes place only once every 666 years there is nothing really special about it in my opinion. On par perhaps with White Court Vampires. Also while fifty thousand were born under that light, how many of their parents went through the various rituals to make it an actual fact? As in fifty thousand potential star borns born, but out of that maybe five or only one actually are, because of how their conception and birth was brought about. That would solve why Justin adopted both Elaine and Harry, both had the potential, but so far unless we learn different, only one turned out to be one... Or it is Harry Potter and Nevil Longbottom all over again...
Where are we getting 50,000 from?It comes from a WOJ just after Battle Ground I believe. Jim was asked about how many were running around and he said 40-50, 000 this cycle which doesn't account for previous cycles. And he said the cycles have been going since the beginning of Creation. It's to do with Lucifer's messing around.
In novel only Listen, Harry and Drakul has been described as Starborn. To a certain extent Jim is making it up as he is going along (it’s fiction) and also Jim lies in WOJ (he even lied in novel in Christmas Eve on line, it’s not true until it’s on paper and bound and sold for less than $50.)
All Jim needs to retcon is that Elaine was required for another but related purpose, a vessel for Nemesis perhaps, a nice mortal but powerful wizard body, if Harry was scheduled for Kemmler. That kind of makes sense, Justin was building up their talent for others to benefit from when their bodies were taken over.
I wouldn't worry too much about random numbers Butcher pulled out of his butt. Chicago didn't exist 666 years ago. Since he set the books in Chicago he therefore must center the story around that locale. The idea of Demonreach is the weakest because of that choice. It's 4000 miles from London. No one from the era of Hastings had any idea at that moment that 5 freshwater lakes existed in North America. And no one other than someone who walked here knew of North America. How Merlin figured this out is a mystery. The Caspian Sea is the largest lake and it isn't in Chicago. So if you needed a big lake and were in Europe you would have went East and not West to find your fresh water lake. In any sense where logic applies the fact that Demonreach exists in Chicago implies it exists because someone in Chicago today put it there for some reason.I agree as far as Chicago goes, that it didn't exist 666 years ago is valid. However since we've seen the short that Alfred played for Harry back in Cold Days as to how Merlin built the island, where it is located loses it's importance. Okay, one answer is the Leylines at that point, but it is also suggested that what makes those Leylines so potent is the gods/monsters in the prison feeding the energy. Or could it be the Leylines is the only thing holding them in prison? It becomes the classic chicken or the egg scenario. The difficulties I see since Alfred has a limited range, aside from Merlin, who were the other Wardens of the island with the kind of juice needed to bind these monsters and then get them close enough for Alfred to throw them in the slammer? Yes, the only obvious solution is the monsters were drug through the Nevernever to the island.. But that seems really risky to me, what if one got loose? Or is that even possible once it was bound?
It comes from a WOJ just after Battle Ground I believe. Jim was asked about how many were running around and he said 40-50, 000 this cycle which doesn't account for previous cycles. And he said the cycles have been going since the beginning of Creation. It's to do with Lucifer's messing around.
I hadn't connected this before, but it doesn't make much sense that the Winter Lady before Maeve would have died (assuming that's what he means by "not fared so well") last time a starborn was running around, if the cycle is 666 years and Maeve & Sarissa's father being the "famous Austrian composer" dates them as born not likely earlier than the 1600's.
So there pretty much must have been two Winter Ladies under Mab before Maeve got the role.
I hadn't connected this before, but it doesn't make much sense that the Winter Lady before Maeve would have died (assuming that's what he means by "not fared so well") last time a starborn was running around, if the cycle is 666 years and Maeve & Sarissa's father being the "famous Austrian composer" dates them as born not likely earlier than the 1600's.
So there pretty much must have been two Winter Ladies under Mab before Maeve got the role.
I wouldn't worry too much about random numbers Butcher pulled out of his butt. Chicago didn't exist 666 years ago. Since he set the books in Chicago he therefore must center the story around that locale. The idea of Demonreach is the weakest because of that choice. It's 4000 miles from London. No one from the era of Hastings had any idea at that moment that 5 freshwater lakes existed in North America. And no one other than someone who walked here knew of North America. How Merlin figured this out is a mystery. The Caspian Sea is the largest lake and it isn't in Chicago. So if you needed a big lake and were in Europe you would have went East and not West to find your fresh water lake. In any sense where logic applies the fact that Demonreach exists in Chicago implies it exists because someone in Chicago today put it there for some reason.Totally get what you're saying. As I said, I was very annoyed about the relevance of Chicago because it didn't make much sense for things like Demonreach or millennia-old races/organisations that had established their HQ's there...except the White Council and a few others. Which is when I realised Jim must have a reason for Chicago being special (or else my head might explode). Perhaps Chicago was built on sacred ground or perhaps it is the location of a future prophecy. Perhaps Demonreach was felt from across the world. I could see Merlin getting some information about an island in a distant and unknown land (to the Euro-centric world) - perhaps Vadderung said "hey I know this great place to lock up monsters if you're interested?", but it also could be events in Harry's future that make Demonreach important in the past i.e. if you believe Harry is Merlin or connected to Merlin he interfered with the past.
Regarding Harry as Starborn as far as the text is concerned the genesis of the idea is exposed by Eb when he discusses a meeting where Margaret laid out a plan to do something that she thought the White Council might buy into. How's that for a run on sentence? There are two ways to look at her pregnancy. She was either pregnant when she ran or just randomly tripped over Malcolm while looking for a random sperm donor for her plan. Color me skeptical on the latter of those two possibilities.
The markings on Demonreach and the castle are interesting. That the Skin Walker isn't frightened suggests that he doesn't associate them with a prison capable of holding him. I'm thinking old ones or angels, someone from his other existence.
Demonreach was put there for the principal reason, the genius loci. Merlin might have figured where future cycles would hit, so that may have been a secondary reason if the old time traveller was aware this would be a very tricky cycle as it also involves the Apocalypse.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGgyJNMA4q8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGgyJNMA4q8) This video at 42:00 Jim says there are 40-50,000 of them originally (not so much now).
I have argued that people were not sure until relatively recently where Demonreach was in the mortal world even Kemmler, as it was accessed from the NeverNever where the next best form of transport was horse and sailboat. You are right a lot of Old World Wizards would have looked to the Caspian Sea for centuries. Kemmler knew it was in the New World when he was Warden, but that gives an truly enormous area to search, especially when it is immune to divination.
I think the 50k is a gross overstatement to hide things. Halloween is the day that the barrier between the mortal and the supernatural is at its weakest, and the witching hour when a practitioner is at their strongest. If it’s birth whic is suggested, then I suspect it’s when the soul of the infant fully separates from that of his mother, they would be overlapping until then. I wonder what a pregnant lady looks like through the third eye? A jumble of overlapping and flickering images I would expect.
The searchlight could have been large enough to cover more than one big city and the next nearest is Milwaukee subject of the unseelie incursion of 94. Maybe not everyone had as accurate an mapping of where the searchlight would hit this time so the maternity wards in Chicago were ignored because all the Starborn chasers were in Milwaukee, and most only figured this out in 94.
Which, unless the point of having that many is for Harry to unite into a star born army to repel an Outsider invasion, is a real disappointment. One also has to ask, what is the point? I mean out of the fifty thousand born this cycle, how many have the talent or are even aware of or care about Outsiders? More to the point, if they are so common, aside from the Outsider thing, what is so special about them that they are basically top secret information? What is the White Council afraid of? Would they rather Harry got the story from Drakul or Listen? Now that has the potential for fake news that could really do some damage.See, I was thinking it was a bit more like Supernatural (the TV show) where Azazel the demon feeds his blood to young babies, which taints them and gives them psychic powers but also one of them will become the leader of the demons (and in the end, the vessel for Lucifer).
I hadn't connected this before, but it doesn't make much sense that the Winter Lady before Maeve would have died (assuming that's what he means by "not fared so well") last time a starborn was running around, if the cycle is 666 years and Maeve & Sarissa's father being the "famous Austrian composer" dates them as born not likely earlier than the 1600's.I believe that's the case. One died around Hastings, and I am unsure about the second.
So there pretty much must have been two Winter Ladies under Mab before Maeve got the role.
I personally have no issue with the initial number of Starborn, they only matter if they have metaphysical talent. Listens probably falls in this bracket, Paranet level.I like this. Great stuff!
Chicago, though, is explained in series. Chicago is a travel nexus. It is a railroad nexus, an air nexus, a sea travel nexus, a river network nexus.
Chicago was elevated in the 19th century to alliw for sewers and water control. Magically, therefore, Chicago exists suspended between land, sea, and air.
Further, I believe the background series has implied politics that Harry missed. Namely, the Red Court and White Court were engaged un trying to sieze Chicago. It's why the council left Harry alone- he setup residence in a foreign territory.
Victor Sells, iirc, worked for SilverCo- Papa Raith's creature. Three way battle for Chicago's vice between Raith, Bianca (Ariana's creature) and Marcone (no-one's creature, but appears to be a White Council creature viz Harry). In short, it's a magic Wild West border town. Which implies territorial proximity- or being on another border.
Chicago is therefore a city of boundaries and pathways, perhaps more than anywhere than Constantinople.
So the series happens there
Truth is though, nowhere has it been said star born are good or intended as such. In fact, Jim has said the opposite is effectively true. Given the reactions of various beings who know about star born I would say that it is consistent. They view them as weapons, as destructive elements, as tools to shape the future. The "good" guys seem scared of them. The bad guys seem to want to use them.
I don't disagree, however I would add that the White Council wanted to be part of this game as well. I has written a while back that they also had intended to use Margaret to get their own advantage. That is why she rebelled in the first place against them and for a while went off the deep end. Then she stumbled across pure goodness, it changed her and in her love for Malcolm she decided that mankind was worth saving. There was better way to throw a monkey wrench in everyone's plans,which the conception with Malcolm and birth of Harry did.I agree that the White Council and "others" have plans for Harry that don't involve him being an agent of destruction...at least to them and the world at large. Rashid is a prime example of what happens when things work out it seems. Drakul is possibly the opposite...although I would bet there are far more examples.
The series has also has balance as a consistent theme, with Malcolm as Harry's father Margaret balanced out the darkness with the light. Oh Harry does have many of the dark qualities that make a star born, but he also has just as many of the qualities that make up a good man from his father.
This is what sets him apart from the rest of the star born. However none of it explains why no one will sit him down and tell him the truth about what he is and what he was meant to do.
Not so sure I agree that Margaret was intended to be used by the White Council, but it's possible. I think she rebelled for far more ordinary reasons though, like having an authoritarian mentor/parent and disliking how the Council operates and bullies others...just like Harry. Ebenezar and Luccio effectively tell us this anyway.
I think it must be difficult to identify star born up to a point...similar to how Rashid even struggles to detect Nemesis (or Uriel for that matter). Obviously people know about Harry now that he is starting to use that power, but I wonder about others. Because Elaine could be yet has seemingly remained undetected by the White Council (although not by the Black Council perhaps). Obviously Outsiders know them, considering the power star born can wield against them. But I wonder how easy it is to find them? To identify them once found? Particularly if they haven't been using their power.Is it? I mean several characters have come out and called Harry a star born without much trouble. Harry doesn't have a tat too on his forehead proclaiming it, so without additional information how did they know? Now HWWB didn't seem to have any trouble, though he didn't come right out and call him a star born. Do Outsiders make a habit of visiting and checking out possible star born confidantes?
4. It could also be a prophecy-type deal that once the person is told, it certain events in motion, and maybe everyone is building up their forces and defenses to ensure that they are ready for what comes next. Several beings have hinted they want as much power as possible when things kick off. Titania also implied to Mab that some sort of threshold had been crossed, a milestone that means those very things are about to happen (relatively speaking).
The evidence for that is in my opinion is the fact that she apparently knew the significance of on and how to conceive of one. Now it is possible I guess that it was Lord Raith that was pushing her for this. Wouldn't he have loved a star born child that he could use as a weapon? Provided of course it was female, a male child especially a star born one would have been seen as a threat. So I don't think that happened, and while the idea of star born children may be general knowledge, the details of how to conceive one is another matter. Apparently the Senior Council has this knowledge, Eb wasn't a member at that time, but as Blackstaff with the job perhaps of taking one out from time to time, he'd need the knowledge. I think the real reason the Merlin wanted Eb to observe and possibly wipe out young Harry wasn't because he feared he'd revert to warlock, but because he knew Harry was star born. And just how did that know this? I mean they may have had Harry's birthday, but did they have the other information about him? That tells me they knew very well what Margaret had done, and had been a part of it at one time.I think several parties want their own star born. But were they trying to make one or did they luck out when they found one? Considering their were around 50k at Harry's birth, it isn't like there wasn't a plethora to choose from. Given some comments made by Jim about how the White Council is so out-gunned and desperate for fire power, I wonder if they wouldn't normally have allowed a star born to exist (think about Morgan's diary entry - he finds it abhorrent that a "Destroyer" should be born and the Merlin wished to execute Harry, and Morgan was one of the top hatchet men for the job) but once presented with the opportunity some wished to exploit this potential weapon. Was it happenstance or planning by the White Council? I don't doubt Raith was involved in trying to get a star born of course, considering his involvement around that time. I don't know that Raith needed a child as much as a slave, so I am not sure the gender mattered much. I think we are both in agreement on the real reasons Eb was to watch (and potentially execute) Harry. The White Council knowing about it is still fairly removed from them planning and/or orchestrating it (although I wouldn't put it past certain rogue elements to be involved like Justin and/or potentially Simon). I just don't see Margaret Le Fay, legendary White Council rebel, working with her organisation that she was on the run from.
Is it? I mean several characters have come out and called Harry a star born without much trouble. Harry doesn't have a tat too on his forehead proclaiming it, so without additional information how did they know? Now HWWB didn't seem to have any trouble, though he didn't come right out and call him a star born. Do Outsiders make a habit of visiting and checking out possible star born confidantes?Well, Maeve could have known due to her Fae knowledge or via Mab, or perhaps being of two-worlds she can just "see" it. But she also was infected by Nemesis, and I am sure Nemesis (like any Outsider) can spot a star born instantly. The Erlking has similar reasons in that he is Fae (and potentially an ex-god), and that Mab may have informed him, and he also knew Maggie. Apart from Outsiders I can't think of who else has called Harry star born. Obviously Eb and senior wizards know, but were they told or can they see something with the Sight? Something most wouldn't recognise. River Shoulders knows (and I guarantee Blood-on-his-Soul also knows) but I would tie that in to what they are. Drakul is a star born himself, so he might recognise his own kind, but he also seems very clued in. I am sure He Who Walks Behind knew exactly what Harry is, just like the other Walkers and other Outsiders. I also suspect gods and angels, and perhaps some demons, certainly the Fallen would also know. Look at the interest Harry gets from these beings. Certainly above normal. I am curious if Alfred knows (or cares). I also wonder if the Naagloshii knew...given what they were I would lean towards yes but it did seem puzzled by Harry's soulfire. I know not all star born would have that but still.
But Harry has always known since White Knight that he was different because of how his mother and father conceived him, he had power over Outsiders. Also from the soul gaze with Thomas, Margaret told him that it might be unfair the burden her and his father placed on him. Also in Harry's vision/dream of Malcolm, he repeated what Margaret said. As late as Peace Talks Eb told Harry he can deal with Outsiders, yet Harry hasn't used that knowledge to go Outsider hunting.Is it to do with how he is conceived? I believe Ebenezar says it's about where the child is born that matters i.e. in the celestial light from the conjunction. If she hadn't birthed him in that light it might not have done anything. To be fair to Harry, he only found out a small bit of information about himself and what he is and part of what that means in Peace Talks. He hasn't really had an opportunity to really test out that strength (although we've seen it in action against the Walkers and other Outsiders of course). It's not an ultimate weapon, it just means he can get them where most beings struggle to. Doesn't mean he can lay them all out (at least for now).
So he knows quite a bit, but unless there is some more to the huge reveal, why not tell him? I think a lot of people will have a lot to answer for once Harry knows, that is why no one is sitting him down and telling him the whole truth.. I include the Winter Court in that, I think they had a lot to do with why Margaret ultimately made her decision.. Andthat'swhy Harry is really going to be pissed at Lea for becoming his godmother, he is going to be pissed at the whole Winter Court.. Hell yeah, he will feel used and abused in the typical fashion that only Harry Dresden can feel.. ::)
Not Winter, Lea. Not everything Lea does is on behalf of Winter.Do you really think Lea does everything she does just for Winter? I believe in Changes she says that even she doesn't owe Mab so much to take out the Red Court for her, but wanted to anyway for their attack on Harry (and his child) - although whether that was the whole story is another thing. Lea is all about power. I suspect she very dearly wishes to supplant Mab - she called Mab her dearest enemy once. Lea isn't necessarily a good guy. How do you think Lea and Margaret met after all? They met when Maggie was becoming buddies with people like Raith and Arianna and Nicodemus...I'd say Lea is out for herself as much as anything.
The deal Lea made with Harry was with her, not Winter. It’s transfer to Winter was part of the price Lea paid to be free of Nemesis. This doesn’t mean that the deal Lea made with Margaret was with Winter, or part of the price Lea paid. Harry was not part of that deal, he cut his own with Lea.
What did Mab get with it eventually ? A competent Winter Knight and Winter Lady. There is nothing else she needs. Lea’s deal with Margaret if about Maggie, is not about Winter, it’s about Lea, and as such neither Mab nor Molly will interfere as it her personal business, not Winters Business.
We will I think see a Battle Royale between Harry and Lea at some point, the problem is Lea is immortal, Harry is not. It may be this is what gets Harry to release Ethnui, to take in Lea, and bring her to Demonreach. We haven’t seen Lea take on Ethnui, she was at the Gates during the Battle of Chicago, and we have had foreshadowing of the release of Ethnui.
And Mab will sit back and do nothing.
Is it to do with how he is conceived?
"it's the why he was born."
Was Listen conceived and born to order? If so by whom and who were HIS parents. I have hypothesised he is a scion, mortal enough to qualify.
In White Night Lash Harry;
Perhaps I'm wrong, but that sounds way more complicated that finding the right place at the
right time to give birth. It takes planning, time of conception and matter of conception is very much a part of that.
In White Night Lash Harry;Well if we play out the idea that Margaret intended Harry to be a star born, the logic says she must have known a) what star born are (otherwise why bother), b) when the star born conjunction was going to occur and where the light would shine on Earth, c) any sort of preparation/sanctification of Harry that may have been required prior to his birth.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but that sounds way more complicated that finding the right place at the right time to give birth. It takes planning, time of conception and matter of conception is very much a part of that.
Magic is generally inherited from the female line and exposure to talent prebirth.But why go to the effort? Margaret's bloodline was already strong enough (and has Ebenezar in it before her, and potentially dates back to the original Merlin). She didn't need to shop around as she had all the power she needed in her bloodline to produce such a strong wizard.
I rather think the deal with Maggie Sr is that she mastered the Ways young enough as a woman to guarantee a wizard-level offspring born whenever she picked via time manipulation via the Ways. The trick is a starborn with metaphysical capabilities. Since the Fomor favored the talented for their modification, I suspect Listens happens to have Paranet level talent. Maggie was still fertile when she attained that level of Ways mastery, and as a female wizard could guarantee foetal exposure to high level magical energy.
But Harry has a big, big talent. And not by chance. I think Maggie hacked the process, and her amulet represents the ability to create an army of starborn wizards next time around.Therefore, it's dangerous and the Merlin will want it smashed.
I think Thomas was a test run, with Valentine's picked for sentimental reasons. He might represent a 5 month objective 9 month subjective pregnancy kind of situation, as could Harry. Or vice versa- 9 month subjective 5 year objective.
Also, @Yuillegan, I think Edinborough represents the Erlking's old digs- his contribution to Odin's pet project.
Typed on mobile, sorry
Now we have to figure out where she got this information (information that seems very carefully guarded). Margaret was no slouch and she travelled far and wide; but she was also at odds with the White Council for much of her life (particularly around the time of Harry's birth). It doesn't rule them out but you then have to go the extra step and say it was a conspiracy between them and her.
In any case, I don't believe the circumstances of Harry's conception played into this. If you're suggesting Malcolm was selected on purpose (particularly for his rare personal characteristics let alone any possible supernatural ones) how does that account for the other 50,000 at the time? You wouldn't suggest that there are 50,000 Malcolms for such purposes. And then you look at a character like Listen. Were his parents specifically selected? While I don't doubt the importance of bloodlines I am not so sure that necessary for the creation of star borns. I think the main components are being in the Light of the conjunction (i.e. the time and place) and any specific sanctification/preparation of Margaret and/or Harry. What other components are there really?
Margaret made an arrangement with Lea, not the Winter Court, subtle difference. If it was a personal agreement Mab will stand back and let Harry be Harry. If Winter had been formally involved this might be construed as a move by Winter on the White Council, instead it was an agreement between individuals.
Um, Mab is Winter, and I doubt it was personal, if Harry was just your ordinary Joe, who's mother made some kind of bargain with Lea, you'd be right, and I doubt that Mab would be interested. But Harry isn't, Mab knows it, has known it from the time he was a mere gleam in Malcolm's eye, she plays the long game and as a result, got herself a star born as her Winter Knight with the BAT approaching.
Harry’s own agreement with Lea was personal to her UNTIL Mab took over the agreement as part of the price for a cure. Harry wasn’t going to go to the White Council to help him, and Mab could still claim this was personal between her and Harry, Mab had a claim, not Winter. That ended when Harry accepted Winters offer and became Winter Knight.
Well if we play out the idea that Margaret intended Harry to be a star born, the logic says she must have known a) what star born are (otherwise why bother), b) when the star born conjunction was going to occur and where the light would shine on Earth, c) any sort of preparation/sanctification of Harry that may have been required prior to his birth.
Now we have to figure out where she got this information (information that seems very carefully guarded). Margaret was no slouch and she travelled far and wide; but she was also at odds with the White Council for much of her life (particularly around the time of Harry's birth). It doesn't rule them out but you then have to go the extra step and say it was a conspiracy between them and her.
The more simple explanation is she got the information in her travels (in particular with Lord Raith and his big library that has made Lara turn from a manipulative politician to an expansionist drawing all available power to her, the same library that convinced Lord Raith to become a player in this cycle). But she then did the unexpected and ran away and used the information for her own goals, and not the goals of her previous allies.
In any case, I don't believe the circumstances of Harry's conception played into this. If you're suggesting Malcolm was selected on purpose (particularly for his rare personal characteristics let alone any possible supernatural ones) how does that account for the other 50,000 at the time? You wouldn't suggest that there are 50,000 Malcolms for such purposes. And then you look at a character like Listen. Were his parents specifically selected? While I don't doubt the importance of bloodlines I am not so sure that necessary for the creation of star borns. I think the main components are being in the Light of the conjunction (i.e. the time and place) and any specific sanctification/preparation of Margaret and/or Harry. What other components are there really?
But why go to the effort? Margaret's bloodline was already strong enough (and has Ebenezar in it before her, and potentially dates back to the original Merlin). She didn't need to shop around as she had all the power she needed in her bloodline to produce such a strong wizard.
I don't think that there is some grand conspiracy with choosing Malcolm. I think she chose Malcolm for the simplest yet most mysterious reason of all: love.
This is how she had the strength to escape Lord Raith. She fell in love. So Raith no longer held power over her. And she fled to protect her new love, and perhaps her soon-to-be-born offspring.
I am very confused about the Erlking being linked to Edinburgh. The second Merlin won it off a Sidhe lord - the Erlking is a (the) goblin lord (and stronger than almost any Sidhe bar the Queen and possibly Lea and Eldest Gruff).
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."Butcher is playing games. He's lied, I just can't figure out about what. Give or take it's about two years after she left that Harry is born. Term may have been longer then nine months but not shorter. So she had about fifteen months to find Malcolm and fall in love. Or somebody else found Malcolm and put him out to stud.
No, she was no fool, but from the way Lash words it when she tells Harry about it says she was being set up to be the little star mother. I will wager it was because of qualities she had.If Margaret has special qualities, are there 50,000 others with special qualities?
My answer to that is something Jim said years ago when asked about Elaine and Harry. Paraphrasing because I cannot remember the exact WOJ, but he said those born at that particular time have the potentialto be star born, which is a lot different from being star born. Again I used the example of Harry Potter and Nevil Longbottom, both were born under the same circumstances to become "the boy who lived," actually if I remember the story correctly it should have been Nevil, but it was Voldermort that screwed up and went after the wrong baby. So what I am saying is if we go by that old WOJ, if I'm remembering it correctly, fifty thousand born under that light and alignment of stars have the potential to be star born, but out of that number, very few actually grow up to be one.
Margaret also knew she and her baby would be targeted, thus she made arrangements with the Winter Court and Harry ended up with a real fairy godmother.
I'm not totally convinced of that, I think the godmother bit is pretty significant, also the Winter Court is in charge of the defense of the Outer Gates. So that kind of move in my opinion doesn't happen without passing muster with Mab. Why would it have to be seen as a move on the White Council by the Winter Court? To quote Rashid who plays a significant role both on the Senior Council of the White Council and in the Winter Court as the Gate Keeper as one of the main generals keeping the Outsiders at bay.. "What the White Council doesn't know won't hurt it.."I believe Lea says that even Mab cannot gainsay her deals - which is clearly partly how Lea has gained so much personal power. Every Fae clearly has the right to their own deals. Toot-toot made his own personal deal with Harry, for example, which has massively increased his personal power.
So I wouldn't be shocked if the White Council is totally ignorant that Lea is Harry's godmother.
Um, Mab is Winter, and I doubt it was personal, if Harry was just your ordinary Joe, who's mother made some kind of bargain with Lea, you'd be right, and I doubt that Mab would be interested. But Harry isn't, Mab knows it, has known it from the time he was a mere gleam in Malcolm's eye, she plays the long game and as a result, got herself a star born as her Winter Knight with the BAT approaching.
Monarchs have their official sovereign capacity and their personal capacity. So yes, Mab can contract in either capacity. When Harry started being useful to her she made sure she took over Lea’s deal over Harry, literally freezing her our. Everything Lea has done since then for Harry was by Mab after Harry became Winter Knight, part of her duties to her liege..I think you might be going a step too far here. While I agree Mab can make deals both as herself and as her position as Queen (although I suspect much of the differences are semantics in most situations to the person on the other end), Mab only took over Lea's deal that she made with Harry but not Lea's deal with Margaret La Fey. Which I think Lea confirms as much in Changes when she says even she doesn't owe Mab so much to take out the Lords of the Outer Night, but Lea did so anyway because of her obligations to Dresden (because of her deal with Margaret). So I wouldn't say everything is just her duties to Mab, but much of it for sure.
Think you crossed some arguments.Which arguments did I cross?
Maggie was part of a plot to engineer a dangerous, uber-strong wizard starborn. Rather than walk away, she threw a wrench in the process by having such a child with Malcolm- breeding aside, Malcolm also raised Harry. Eb said Malcolm has a soul like few he'd ever seen- after meeting Michael. Also would neatly explain why Harry adopted Michael as a pseudofather so quickly.
The goblins are Wyldfae. Ir's why the Erlking is a Summer King, like Kringle is winter. Erlking is lord of the bloodsport that is the hunt in summer, as Kringle embodies the warmth and family coming together to survive side of Winter.
Wyldfae means Fae. Summer King implies Sidhe. Herne the Hunter is geographically close. And his Nevernever digs were similar tunnels, as I recall.
There is no such thing as a Summer King in the Dresden Files faerie cosmology. Mab and Titania need a King like a fish needs a bicycle. :)Kringle doesn't have a Court, nor does the Erlking. In theory they could side with either Summer or Winter, just like any Wyldfae.
There are a ton of independent rulers of the Wyld, though, much like the Erlking, who is a member of the Winter Court more or less as a sign of courtesy and respect.
The Faerie realms just aren’t that structured. It’s more accurate to say that [Kringle] is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab’s and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.
Butcher is playing games. He's lied, I just can't figure out about what. Give or take it's about two years after she left that Harry is born. Term may have been longer then nine months but not shorter. So she had about fifteen months to find Malcolm and fall in love. Or somebody else found Malcolm and put him out to stud.What makes you think he's lying? I am curious on what that might be. Good to hang on to such feelings as it's often a good way of spotting a hint.
If Margaret was enthralled to Raith and fell in love with Malcolm that might have broke her free of Raith since he wouldn't have been able to touch her. He introduced the idea of time passing at different rates in the Never Never so it isn't out of the realm of possibility. He(Butcher) has also dropped a lot weird bread crumbs like Margaret and Malcolm visiting the Lincoln Monument just before Harry is born. That may have been where Harry was born (In DC).
If Margaret has special qualities, are there 50,000 others with special qualities?In a word, yes. For that matter a fish may lay 50,000 eggs, but only a small percentage of that number survive, and of that number even fewer grow to their full potential.
The quote that Morris provides is the one I believe you are referring to. For your theory to really work, Harry has to be more special than any other star born. A special star born. Which I grant is possible. Harry could be some Chosen One of a prophecy. But we haven't heard any references to a prophecy or that Harry is chosen. The Chosen One thing is very much a fate thing, yet the series is constantly underlining the importance of choice. While fate and chance are not mutually exclusive necessarily it does make it harder to reconcile.Doesn't mean there isn't a prophecy, there are several books to go plus the three book BAT. And yes, Harry has shown already he isn't your run of the mill star born, because of the choices he has made. He is the reason Justin's plans or plans he was part of blew up in their faces, Harry didn't behave like a normal star born. The part you leave out about choice is character, who you are motivates your choices as much as circumstances. Harry granted has screwed up, he is human, but for the most part they have been for the better. There is a reason why Shiro sacrificed himself for Harry, made him Custodian of his Sword when he passed, they haven't all been revealed yet.
In a word, yes. For that matter a fish may lay 50,000 eggs, but only a small percentage of that number survive, and of that number even fewer grow to their full potential.Even if there are 50k special parents give or take, that doesn't address Margaret choosing to be a part of some plot.
Doesn't mean there isn't a prophecy, there are several books to go plus the three book BAT. And yes, Harry has shown already he isn't your run of the mill star born, because of the choices he has made. He is the reason Justin's plans or plans he was part of blew up in their faces, Harry didn't behave like a normal star born. The part you leave out about choice is character, who you are motivates your choices as much as circumstances. Harry granted has screwed up, he is human, but for the most part they have been for the better. There is a reason why Shiro sacrificed himself for Harry, made him Custodian of his Sword when he passed, they haven't all been revealed yet.
What makes you think he's lying? I am curious on what that might be. Good to hang on to such feelings as it's often a good way of spotting a hint.Butcher lies via obfuscation. For instance he's been telling you in bits and pieces what it is that Harry is. He's a nuclear bomb if you will. In Changes everybody just believes that the Red's curse did the deed, except The Merlin. He called the dance back in Scotland.
I seem to remember Margaret went on the run for two years, as you say, and in that time Harry was born. I think Ebenezar tells Harry this. I think she didn't meet Malcolm during this time, but rather at the start, given that's what I believe what gave her the strength to escape. Falling in love does crazy things to people after all.
DC is a reasonable spot as any if the location for the conjunction Light is the most if not all of the USA. But I do suspect it might be a bit smaller than that (i.e. the size of a city). DC could be the place of conception though...I doubt even Jim has the answer to that right now (if it ever becomes relevant). I think it would have to be only the size of a city, maybe smaller, given the amount of star borns.
“No,” Langtry said. “So they never knew it was coming. Period. We will no longer wage a war with that filth, cold, hot, or otherwise. We’re going to destroy them, root and branch.” He lifted his chin slightly as his voice turned to frost. “We’re going to exterminate them.”So this is how Butcher lies. He does this kind of thing a lot so my working assumption is that he lying whenever his lips are moving.
Even if there are 50k special parents give or take, that doesn't address Margaret choosing to be a part of some plot.
But Harry's choices don't make him intrinsically special any more than any other individuals choices. He's more special than the average human both because he is a wizard and because he is a star born, and perhaps because of some chosen one thing, and his choices have intensified this. But they don't make him a "special" star born. He doesn't have attributes beyond any of the others as far as we know. He has displayed the regular powers of star born i.e. resisting the power of the Outside and being able to hurt the Outsiders.
We don't know how a normal star born would behave as Harry is the benchmark, and we've only met two confirmed star born (possibly three). I don't see a difference between how bad star born act and how bad individuals act.
Shiro would have sacrificed himself for the lowest person on the planet. He is just that good of a person. Harry's star born nature had nothing to do with it, and I don't remember Shiro knowing a thing about it. Even if he did, I doubt that played into it whatsoever. That's what being a Knight of the Cross really means.
"No," Shiro said. "There is much you do not understand." He coughed, and pain flashed over his face. "You will."Then he handed over his Sword to Harry to take care of.. A whole lot more Harry doesn't understand even yet.. Harry is special.
You also haven't addressed when Harry became a star born. When do you propose this happened?
One thing that I'm not buying on any level is that Malcolm was just Malcolm.Yes, I agree to a point, though I think Malcolm was just a vanilla human, but some of them are saints.. If Malcolm wasn't, he came very close to being one.
Finding Malcolm while Margaret is on the run is like finding a 3 pound gold nugget in a pile of random sand. I don't believe it. It assaults my sense of how stories are constructed.
Nope Margaret figured curses etc weren’t working against Raith when targeted directly at him, she made her death curse surround him instead and anchored it in the blood of her children to keep it going to have time to work. That’s why STARVE, it wasn’t cruelty, it was the only way it would work to kill him.
"I as so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone. I hope you will forgive my mistake. But know that I am proud of what you have become."
The Hunger hissed more words at Thomas. "What is it saying?" I asked.
"It's telling him to give up. That there's no point in fighting anymore. That it will never leave him in peace."
“I lulled their predator spirit to sleep,” she said calmly. “Poor lambs. They didn’t realize how much strength they drew from it. Mayhap this will prove a useful lesson.”That pretty much covers it for me although your mileage may very. Margaret attacked Raith though Thomas's link to his demon. She can hear him speaking. She either came to it independently or she learned from the Fey.
Butcher lies via obfuscation. For instance he's been telling you in bits and pieces what it is that Harry is. He's a nuclear bomb if you will. In Changes everybody just believes that the Red's curse did the deed, except The Merlin. He called the dance back in Scotland.I'm confused. Didn't the Reds curse wipe out the Red Court? Didn't Harry just aim their weapon back at them and fire it?
So this is how Butcher lies. He does this kind of thing a lot so my working assumption is that he lying whenever his lips are moving.
One thing that I'm not buying on any level is that Malcolm was just Malcolm.
Finding Malcolm while Margaret is on the run is like finding a 3 pound gold nugget in a pile of random sand. I don't believe it. It assaults my sense of how stories are constructed.I get why you might think like that but I believe it misses the point of Malcolm's character i.e. that he is a vehicle for Jim's own thoughts about his own father (read some of the things he says about his own father and you'll see - not that he does speak much about him publicly). This is also clear in that Dresden was built on Jim's own personality originally, so it's natural his father shares similarities with Butcher's. Beyond that, I think the character is meant to showcase (just as Michael is) a really good person. Sometimes what's special about a character (particularly in fantasy) is how good they are of a person despite not having any real power (especially in the magic sense). Think Garrow in Eragon or Sam in LOTR (more to the point - hobbits in general) or Jonathan Kent (Superman's adoptive father) or perhaps most classically Uncle Ben (and to some degree, Aunt May).
Sure it does, we are talking "potential." To put it another way, thousands of babies are born every minute, all have potential, but to reach it takes something more. It is clear that when Margaret met Malcolm she chose a different path, and then she chose and he agreed to conceive a star child. What we've seen of star children so far and what it looks like Justin was after, star children are not exactly nice.. The series is also about the importance of "balance" as well as "choices." It looks like Harry is that balance, he isn't perfect and he has made some poor choices, but most of the time he tries to do the right thing, it's on his tombstone.Well that's not Jim's wording. His wording wasn't there were 50,000 potential star born this cycle originally. He said there were 50,000 star born. As in, they had already become star born. Whatever that truly means.
Sure it does, Harry is special and set apart, he resisted a Shadow of one of the Fallen, he is Custodian of the Holy Swords, it is a privilege given to him to know who and who shouldn't be
a Holy Knight be it for a minute or for life when needed. Something you just cannot declare for yourself even if you happen to have the Swords as Murphy found out. He has Soul Fire, this sets him apart, he passed the exam that Hades set up and now has possession of the Holy Relics/weapons, he passed the exam at the island and now is Warden.. He is a whole lot more than a wizard with power to resist Outsiders, he was meant to be a whole lot more, this is hinted at all through the series.
For starters, I don't think there is such a thing as "a normal" star born. We know how Drakul and Listens act, bad is bad, Harry is mostly a good person, so what are you trying to say? Nothing special about star born except the Outsider bit that most will never know about because they are just normal people? So what is the point of making it such a big deal in the series?
Yes, he would, but there is more to it than that.. Page 337 Death Masks..
Harry says it should have been him instead of Shiro, but dying Shiro tells him;
Then he handed over his Sword to Harry to take care of.. A whole lot more Harry doesn't understand even yet.. Harry is special.
When he was conceived and born alive.. It isn't about that it is about the special mix of genes! Malcolm is the key, this is what motivated Margaret to have a child by him and he agreed.. They both tell Harry it is unfair the responsibility and trouble they put upon him by conceiving him. We are repeatedly told all though the series that for the most part Harry inherited his father's good nature and good heart.. This is the difference that Margaret was looking for in her star born, this is what sets Harry apart from the likes of Drakul and Listens. Yes, I agree to a point, though I think Malcolm was just a vanilla human, but some of them are saints.. If Malcolm wasn't, he came very close to being one.
Malcolm was just human, that is to say just the best distilled of all human qualities that makes a Father Forthill, a Nick Angel virtual living saints or a Knight, he is a champion of humanity, free will and the White God, just by being him. That makes him incredibly rare, a human being with only the positive virtues and not the negative vices of humanity, which was why he was such a breath of fresh air to Margaret dealing with a White Council very much steeped in humanity’s vices.I agree. Saints in the series are the result of ascensions, similar to becoming a god. Powerful beings indeed. The Catholic Church liked it until it became a problem for reasons unknown. I doubt Malcolm is a literal Saint. Otherwise, the bar has lowered considerably. Not to mention, that would imply that there are Saints humanity isn't aware of, unless there is a Saint Malcolm Dresden that I don't know about.
Harry is not that, he has anger aplenty, but kindness, love etc in greater or equal measure, as a Starborn he can turn either way, but he has been lucky in the people he has sought or received guidance from or who have been there at time of crisis. His father an enduring influence, Nick Angel after coming to Chicago, then Murphy, then Michael and Father Forthill, Shiro, Sanya, Butters.
Chicago has a population of 2.7 million, Chicagoland larger 9.5 millionit has produced Malcolm Dresden, Father Forthill, Michael Carpenter, Karin Murphy and Waldo Butters
If you think about it the odds are better than one in a million.
Nope Margaret figured curses etc weren’t working against Raith when targeted directly at him, she made her death curse surround him instead and anchored it in the blood of her children to keep it going to have time to work. That’s why STARVE, it wasn’t cruelty, it was the only way it would work to kill him.Agree with all of this.
I wonder in Next Book whether Papa Raith will still be around, he isn’t needed due to the alliance with Mab any longer to support Lara’s power.
Finding Malcolm was a boon for Margaret, but it could have as easily beenFather ForthillNick Angel. The White God is a big believer in Free Will, and will only intervene in the most indirect of ways. Therefore whilst TWG may have put Malcom in Margaret’s way, to have Harry was her decision. TWG only created the possibility of a Harry Dresden Starborn, that Malcolm just by being who he is convinced her that humanity needed a champion, that it should not just fall prey to the monsters and the end of time and she made that decision even knowing it would cost her life.
Mab came along later, Lea had already cut her own deal with Margaret, for the future Maggie and wasn’t interested in a Starborn. Although TWG is working with Mab, Odin and Hades, and has been for some time, they are not mortals and TWG doesn’t care about THEIR free will. Mab is constrained by the laws of Winter, Odin gave up his immortality to stay in the mortal world and Hades is restricted to the Never Never. Harry as a mortal is allowed to exercise free will for good or bad, and the battle inside his head is perhaps more important than the ones going on outside of it in the real world. Butters and Sanya were not in Chicago to defeat Ethnui, they were there to help Harry make a decision not to kill Rudy, not to become the monster he secretly feared.
Margaret had the opportunity to examine Raith up close for a good period of time, and no doubt witnessed at least one major magical attack on him (for example Eb’s visit) slowing her to figure out how it was working. That doesn’t mean she needed Lea or Mab’s help, she easily could have done this on her own. What Lea did was shield Margaret from being located (not just by Raith) and protect her from harm until Harry was born.Agreed, although did Eb attack Raith before he killed Maggie?
I always thought Elaine cut a similar deal with Summer, in her case until the child reached its full majority, 21. Jim has said there is no third child, but things come in threes and Jim lies. Elaine has kept her distance from Harry for perhaps a good reason and any such child would have hit 22 by Battle Ground.
That pretty much covers it for me although your mileage may very. Margaret attacked Raith though Thomas's link to his demon. She can hear him speaking. She either came to it independently or she learned from the Fey.Why couldn't she attack Lord Raith's Hunger directly? Why would she need to go through Thomas?
I think this provides a hint as to how Harry will free Thomas from his Demon.
But was Shiro handing over Fidelacchius because of Harry's star born nature or because of some prophecy, or was it because of Harry's character and values? I think he entrusted them to Harry because he believed in Harry's judgement. But I could be wrong.
Look, it's a fair theory that she chose Malcolm for his personality, but this assumes she knew she was going to have a star born child. Which we don't know that she knew. We don't know that she planned it at all. Even if she did intend for it, did Malcolm know before the conception? Which would be highly questionable, ethically speaking. Even if she did plan it, we don't have any evidence that the White Council or anyone else on the "good guys" wanted Harry to exist. She could just as easily have tried to take on her enemies alone.
"I as so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone.
I'm confused. Didn't the Reds curse wipe out the Red Court? Didn't Harry just aim their weapon back at them and fire it?Sure. Butcher then inserts the datum that Harry lost two minutes when the curse was triggered. Why do that? There are moments when Butcher adds things that make no sense in context unless there is something going on that he both wants to expose and conceal. Meaning he wants you to see the shadow but not the thing casting it. In PG Butcher has Little Chicago broken. The dominant question then becomes, who fixed it? Heck, I've a WAG or three on that topic myself. But the complementary question is, why did he break it? Which I never hear asked.
Why couldn't she attack Lord Raith's Hunger directly? Why would she need to go through Thomas?There was nothing to attach the spell to. In the text Harry describes it as,
Agreed, this is the hint on how to free Thomas...assuming Butcher ever wants that to happen.
And felt nothing. Not just empty air and drifting dust, but nothing. A cold and somehow hungry emptiness that filled the space where he should have been. I'd felt something like it before, when I'd been near a mote of one of the deadliest substances that any world of flesh or spirit had ever known. My power, my magic, the flowing spirit of life, just vanished into it without getting near Raith.I take the metaphor of the hand extending out of the mirror in Blood Rites to mean that if it can reach out then Margaret realized she could reach in. She, I believe, bound Raith's demon through Thomas. His demon wasn't protected.
I get why you might think like that but I believe it misses the point of Malcolm's character i.e. that he is a vehicle for Jim's own thoughts about his own father (read some of the things he says about his own father and you'll see - not that he does speak much about him publicly).Seems plausible, however he chose to make him a player from beyond death. Malcolm is so important that Uriel keeps him on tap when Harry needs a bucking up and Malcolm can guard Harry's dreams. Perhaps I'm just jackass stubborn. It grates on me.
Seems plausible, however he chose to make him a player from beyond death. Malcolm is so important that Uriel keeps him on tap when Harry needs a bucking up and Malcolm can guard Harry's dreams. Perhaps I'm just jackass stubborn. It grates on me.
"So," I said. "Why haven't I dreamed about you before?" "Because I wasn't allowed to contact you before. My father said easily. "Not until others had crossed the line."Yup, and who is Dresden mainly up against in Death Mask? Denarians.. I'm guessing that Malcolm is held back because Harry has to be allowed to make his own choices.. But balance is an important theme in the series, the Denarians crossed the line, so Malcolm is allowed by Heaven to pay his son a visit. Malcolm tells Harry he isn't alone, to listen to his heart.. Yup again the "heart" theme, and who's good heart did Harry inherit? Malcolm's heart...
"Allowed?" I asked. "What others? What line?"
"My boy. There's so much still ahead of you." "So much?" I whispered.Malcolm never answers, but he knows what is ahead for Harry, he knows what he and Margaret put upon him when they conceived him. Oh yeah, he was no accident of birth.. One more thing Malcolm says, he will keep the campfire burning and Harry safe until morning.
"Pain. Joy. Love. Death. Heartache. Terrible waters. Despair. Hope. I wish I could have been with you longer. I wish I could have helped you prepare for it."
"For what?" I asked him.
Apparently in WOJ in 2010, Justin DuMorne thought Elaine might be a Starborn like Harry.
This may suggest he didn’t have Elaine’s exact date and time of birth, but her apparent age and general background may have made him suspect this, whereas with Harry he definitely knew. But what if his suspicions were incorrect? Someone fudged things and placed Elaine as a candidate for Justin to find, as bait? One of the other players using a fake Starborn to find Harry (the real deal) when neither his grandfather nor Morgan could find him?
Could Elaine Mallory have been the Merlin’s plant? And he still lost her? It would explain why no one looked for her from the White Council, too many inconvenient questions would have arisen about the Merlin using a 10 year old girl as bait.
This theory allows Jim to lie/not lie and confuse the issue as to Starborn, which is exactly what it has done for the last 12 years.
Elaine’s medallion? Set dressing and perhaps a magical tracking device.
I don't think that Jim lied twelve years ago, he just wasn't committing himself one way or the other, keeping his options open for her. She still could be star born, they seem to be popping up like mushrooms in the last couple of books.
Much more nuanced, a character who is DED thought Elaine was a Starborn according to Jim. Everyone was looking for Harry who dropped off the face of the Earth because of who he was, a wizard Starborn. If everything else fails why not put a fake out there to see who took the real thing? You need a child of approximately the right age with magical ability, you can fudge the records on the former, and the child’s memory, but not the latter.
Justin may have used the Walker to help enslave Elaine, which proved she was NOT Starborn, she wasn’t immune to their influence.
It’s actually listed in Elaine’s page of the Dresden Wiki.
Jim definitely had “The Lady of Shalott” in mind when creating the character, she died alone and untouched in her tower of unrequited love when Lancelot passed her over (Elaine Lilian (The Lily is a sign of purity in the poem and wider)Mallory) here this Elaine survived both Harry and his love. Not to be confused with the other Elaine in Mallory’s Morte d’ Arthur, who was Galahad’s mum (or is it, does Harry have an adult son by Elaine (who wasn’t pure and untouched) who will take the Grail from Nicky?)