The pentagram does have the appearance of how a star would be drawn. Could each point on the pentagram represent a type of requirement for a Starborn to be created? More likely a Starborn is based on some kind of astrology or something, but wanted to see if the pentagram could be part of the equation. It's important to Harry, and I think his mom provided him with the the necklace? I dunno, just a random thought I had.
I'm not aware of any five-pointed star shapes in the classical constellations, but there might be some sort of less direct connection. But if one of the ingredients for a Starborn was a deliberate ritual by / around the pregnant mother during the several months window of the astrological conjunction (we know that component is somewhat broad since both Harry and Elaine meet it despite being a few months different in age), it very likely could have been done in the usual pentagram format.
I was thinking maybe a magical ritual say with 5 people or objects of power, points in time, something like that.
The pentagram does have the appearance of how a star would be drawn. Could each point on the pentagram represent a type of requirement for a Starborn to be created? More likely a Starborn is based on some kind of astrology or something, but wanted to see if the pentagram could be part of the equation. It's important to Harry, and I think his mom provided him with the the necklace? I dunno, just a random thought I had.The Pentagram, the stars and stones curse, the 5 stars on Lady Nights neck when the sky is devoid of stars in CH and a few other things lead me to believe there are 5 major repeating starborn patterns(Harry vs Thomas is a good example of starborn differentiation). If you par down most pantheons you can find the five major god/ess's. An also possible corralates to the 5 planets(eight astrological) visible from earth with the naked eye as defined by Greek and Roman astrologists. So 5 and 3, just like the number of Holy relics plus nails of the sword. the thing is, each one probably represents at its kernel the whole of a 'star' and that gets broken down piecemeal in reality(except angels, they represent the entirety of one, an absolute without room for change) So if you put them to the current agenda in the Fae, each line of queens/knights is one being, then the kings are 2 beings of their own(each starborn culminates as that kernel, that kernel is the mortal ability to change) and the 5th is probably in the fomor/N archetype starborn.
I was thinking maybe a magical ritual say with 5 people or objects of power, points in time, something like that.
The Pentagram, the stars and stones curse, the 5 stars on Lady Nights neck when the sky is devoid of stars in CH and a few other things lead me to believe there are 5 major repeating starborn patterns(Harry vs Thomas is a good example of starborn differentiation). If you par down most pantheons you can find the five major god/ess's. An also possible corralates to the 5 planets(eight astrological) visible from earth with the naked eye as defined by Greek and Roman astrologists. So 5 and 3, just like the number of Holy relics plus nails of the sword. the thing is, each one probably represents at its kernel the whole of a 'star' and that gets broken down piecemeal in reality(except angels, they represent the entirety of one, an absolute without room for change) So if you put them to the current agenda in the Fae, each line of queens/knights is one being, then the kings are 2 beings of their own(each starborn culminates as that kernel, that kernel is the mortal ability to change) and the 5th is probably in the fomor/N archetype starborn.I normally don't quote entire posts, but this one just kinda calls for it. Wow.
*the hard thing to explain but which i'm pretty sure we will see some of eventually, is instead of bringing in some identity like a mantle portion, if you die like TWC did you become the identity of the 'star' itself. Which may be why Lasciel has a greek woman as what Harry presumes is close to her true looks, even though angels have existed since they did creation, ergo before actual human mortals. On a lower level Harry did the same thing I think, being both alive and malleable but also the spirit/Mantle of Dresden at the same time.(you wanna be absolute, you gotta get absolutely killed out THEN come back, he just broke the lid on his mortality cup as of yet)
**current line up is Harry, Molly, Murphy, Marcone and.... Ms Beckett perhaps? Or maybe Grey, hard to identify the last one so far. ***oops, I plum forgot about Elaine, #5 is Elaine.
I normally don't quote entire posts, but this one just kinda calls for it. Wow.1 In CH when Harry is at the stone table to receive the mantle, which the first time he was there in SK the sky had more than the five stars iirc, the sky was otherwise empty on this event.
Ok, I'm kinda following, but could you clear up some things?
5 stars on Lady Night's neck? When was that?
Is Thomas a Starborn? Has anyone other than Harry been called a Starborn?
I get the repetition of 5, where is 3?
And then you completely lost me when you started talking about kernels of a star. I don't know what your list of characters at the end is supposed to mean. Are you saying that all these people are also starborn?
Don't get me wrong; I -love- complex theory. I just don't understand this one yet, but want to. Please elaborate, with sources if possible!
You mean the five have to come together somehow and "BE" the starborn?
Has there ever been any WOJ on what a Starborn actually is, other than having power over Outsiders? All I know is what is in the books, and it's nothing but knowing references from other people.
I have absolutely nothing to counter on this argument, but that's mostly because it seems to be presupposition built on presupposition built on patterns in legend. Its hard to argue for or against hidden lore. Which is not to say that it might not be true; it's a really cool theory that supposes a good deal on ritual and numerology. But I like my WAGs to be a bit more grounded before they become headcanon.
I always thought it odd, by the way, that Elaine had a pentacle amulet just like Harry's. Thomas I could see; it was a gift from their mother. But why Elaine? Did she just really like Harry's and get one at a store? Or does it also signify something deeper?
Has there ever been any WOJ on what a Starborn actually is, other than having power over Outsiders? All I know is what is in the books, and it's nothing but knowing references from other people.Theres a woj on Elaine's amulet btw
I have absolutely nothing to counter on this argument, but that's mostly because it seems to be presupposition built on presupposition built on patterns in legend. Its hard to argue for or against hidden lore. Which is not to say that it might not be true; it's a really cool theory that supposes a good deal on ritual and numerology. But I like my WAGs to be a bit more grounded before they become headcanon.
I always thought it odd, by the way, that Elaine had a pentacle amulet just like Harry's. Thomas I could see; it was a gift from their mother. But why Elaine? Did she just really like Harry's and get one at a store? Or does it also signify something deeper?
In the early books you mention that Elaine has the same pentacle as Harry. Is that significant or have you changed your mind on?throw this in since your talking about it
No it's significant. There is a reason for that. Harry and Elaine come from the same philosophical background as far as magic is concerned... Or at least so he believes in any case. I guess we will have to see if Elaine thinks the same way. Who here has read White Knight so far? Yah, Elaine doesn't think exactly the same way as Harry when it comes to the use of magic, but at the same time though they are not exactly on a totally different page either. It's significant that they both have the same symbol. It says something about what they think and what they believe.
Q: Is Elaine another candidate to wield power over Outsiders (the way Harry supposedly is)?*there's probably things to support these prepositions and knowing references, I just forget the little details. an the one place i'd stored all my data was kinda destroyed/taken away unfortunately.
A: Yes. There’s a reason Justin picked the two of them.
The five points of the pentagram of magic: earth, wind, fire, water and spirit.
Perhaps to create a starborn, you need all of these to be present in the parents. earth: the mother's father is a farmer, works the earth. water: perhaps Malcolm's dad was a sailor. Fire: she is a wizard and wields the fire of magic. Wind: they are on the run, not bound, blowing free.
Spirit could be where she erred with Papa Raith if she misinterpreted spirit as passion, when it actually means love. It was when she was in love with Malcolm that the final ingredient was achieved.
Just an off-the-top-of-my-head theory.
If that were the case then one of Raith's parents would have to be a sailor and the two would need to be on the run too. Plus magic seems like a combination of all five rather than a representation of one of the elements.
I think you may be on to certain qualities in the parents being a factor though. But I think timing and other events which are harder to "tick off a list" would be involved. I really like the idea of each element in the five points of magic being represented in some way. Has it ever been said that Margaret was trying for a starborn? I think there may have been a WoJ, but I can't remember for sure.
Yes, Lash told Harry as much in White Night. No, she didn't call him star born, that is a term someone else gave him... But she said..
page 363
"It is relevant," Lash said, "Because of the circumstances of your birth--because of whyyou were born, Hary. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
She goes on to say a few lines later;
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
She nearly confesses to Harry in Blood Rites what she did, I don't have time to look up the exact quote now, but in his vision of her in his soul gaze with Thomas, she speaks of her arrogance to do what she did in creating him.. In Dead Beat his dream about Malcolm he also speaks of the unfair burden he and Margaret placed on him... To my way of thinking that pretty much spells it out that they deliberately conceived Harry to be a star born.
Does that imply that Malcolm was complicit in engineering a starborn? I've never considered that before. That puts a different spin on his character for me. I've never really thought about Malcolm, to be honest, which is unfortunate now that I am. I always kind of chalked him up as a vanilla mortal who got swept up in a romance and found that the world was way more complicated than he thought. But if he was complicit, and there was something specific about Malcolm that Margaret was looking for...
If that were the case then one of Raith's parents would have to be a sailor and the two would need to be on the run too. Plus magic seems like a combination of all five rather than a representation of one of the elements.
I think you may be on to certain qualities in the parents being a factor though. But I think timing and other events which are harder to "tick off a list" would be involved. I really like the idea of each element in the five points of magic being represented in some way. Has it ever been said that Margaret was trying for a starborn? I think there may have been a WoJ, but I can't remember for sure.
If making a star-born is a lengthy, multi-step process and Elaine has the potential to be a starborn; then who were Elaine's parents that they: A. knew the process, B. could follow the process, and C. decided that the result of the process needed to be conceived?
I like that part about how Elaine does not think about magic in the same way as Harry. Feels like it has meaning.
I believe that Margaret DID know of the need for a Starborn. I don't believe that Thomas was her first attempt. It think she was just enjoying great sex.
But, it's entirely possible that she learned of the need, and maybe the process, for creating a Starborn, from Pappa Raith's library. And then she started working on a means of escape.
Further, I believe that Justin was in on the plan.
Here's a further WAG ... Margart was trying to get the Vampire courts together to take over the outer gates.
Cough - Kumori - cough.I think that we are sharing the same sore throat.
I believe that Margaret DID know of the need for a Starborn. I don't believe that Thomas was her first attempt. It think she was just enjoying great sex.I doubt it as far as Thomas was concerned, evidence for that is the fact that she left him behind when she ran off with Malcolm. If she was trying with Lord Raith to conceive a star child her motives were way different from what they were when she conceived Harry.... Lash confirms this by saying meeting Malcolm gave her the courage to leave Lord Raith, then she went about the business of conceiving Harry. Since we don't know the exact alignments, genes, etc to make a star child, it is unclear .. If what you are saying is true, why didn't she just stick around and have another baby with Lord Raith if she failed the first time?
But, it's entirely possible that she learned of the need, and maybe the process, for creating a Starborn, from Pappa Raith's library. And then she started working on a means of escape.
Further, I believe that Justin was in on the plan.
Here's a further WAG ... Margart was trying to get the Vampire courts together to take over the outer gates.
Margaret preserved her knowledge of the ways, so I wondered if she did the same for the rest of her magical lore, which would include what she knew about star Borns. She knew Harry would face a big burden, so having her grey lore would be an invaluable advantage. I could see her hiding the location of her stash somewhere in her way gem.
I believe that Margaret DID know of the need for a Starborn. I don't believe that Thomas was her first attempt. It think she was just enjoying great sex.
But, it's entirely possible that she learned of the need, and maybe the process, for creating a Starborn, from Pappa Raith's library. And then she started working on a means of escape.
Further, I believe that Justin was in on the plan.
Here's a further WAG ... Margart was trying to get the Vampire courts together to take over the outer gates.
I don't think she ran off WITH Malcolm. I think she met him while on the run.
I think she was trying to create a starborn with LR. She told Eb that she was with LR to accomplish something, that they had a plan.
I think it more likely that Elaine's parents didn't know, but someone (Justin) saw the circumstances of her birth and figured it was possible. He then killed the parents and arranged to become the foster parent. IIRC he adopted Harry for pretty much the same reason.
I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates, including Justin DuMorne. After that, no where was safe for her. She ran, from her former allies and from the wardens for perhaps two years... She met your father. A man, a mortal without powers, without influence, without resources, but a man with a good soul like few I have ever seen. I believe she fell in love with him.
She did gift him with another gem, remember? In the soul gaze with Thomas where they speak she sends a "gift/gem" straight to his brain, "insight." Insight has served Harry well since then..
As I recall, there hasn't been much of anything even mentioned about the physical gem since Changes.
A Voltron necklace?
As I recall, there hasn't been much of anything even mentioned about the physical gem since Changes. Seems a bit weird, actually, considering that Harry was basically hanging out on Demonreach for a year without studying it. Though I guess he was a bit preoccupied with making replacement gear. Maybe he and Bonnie will look into it together as a bonding experience.
It kind of has to come up again soon, because Lea mentioned a price to be paid for the knowledge—Margaret couldn't sleep soundly ever again, so I expect him to have something similar. If Butcher really wants to torture him, an enforced vow of chastity would be in order...
I don't know how much he could study it, it was basically a red gem if I recall correctly, sort of a magical microchip I imagine. He couldn't travel with it since the thing in his head wouldn't let him leave the island. At the moment his plate is pretty full so not much time for exploring the Ways just for the sake of it. However I doubt that we've heard the last about it.. Thing is, if Harry used it all of the time to get where he needs to go it would became an all too easy plot device..
Well, yeah, he hasn't needed to use it. I'm saying that for someone with an orphan complex as bad as Harry, it's a bit odd that he hasn't spent time examining or studying the thing that lets him hear his mother's voice.
The knowledge in the gem was recorded like personal notes. What else is on there besides directions through the Ways? Seems like something Harry would want to know—in fact, be desperate to know.
Margret knew Harry would be a starborn, and made that pentagram just for him. He has used it as a focus before, I wonder if she might have made it just for a starborn.
If I remember correctly Harry's pentagram belonged to Margaret, or so he keeps saying.. It is one of the few physical things supposedly handed down to him from her. But then again Thomas also wears a pentagram identical to the one Harry wears, well not quite, his now has a road map gem of the Ways in it. So she must have had them made for her boys.. As far as we know, Thomas isn't starborn and Margaret wasn't starborn, yet they wear and wore a pentagram.