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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: heidi_storage on February 27, 2021, 02:44:26 PM
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I mentioned this in another thread, but it's bugging me. She's too angelic and obedient, and we're told rather than shown that she's traumatized from her experiences. "Zoo Day" didn't ring true--she isn't like any of the kids I've known, including those with bad histories or who are in foster care. Granted, I'm no expert, but I am a parent (albeit to nontraumatized kids), I've volunteered with children in tough situations, and my sister-in-law fostered kids for a couple of years. Maggie just doesn't feel real to me.
Harry-as-child is a lot more convincing--especially as an angry, scared, defensive, impulsive teen. Maggie doesn't appear to have the slightest difficulty fitting in with multiple caregivers. She falls asleep in Harry's arms when he's a relative stranger, and I just about threw up when she asks him if he wants to be her daddy. She doesn't act out, EVER.
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She's saving it all up for her teen years. Molly was also pretty good, when she was in sight of her parents. She was dressing provocatively, and changing in the treehouse before she'd go indoors. Good kids often grow to test their boundaries. In her childhood she may have learned that the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. She's afraid to stand out and only does so when she is forced to turn and confront her bullies.
Zoo Day wasn't super convincing, but it is a work of fiction so I'm willing to forgive some artistic license.
I hope we get to see Maggie's YA series. Jim has as much admitted that she's going to come into power. That will be fascinating to see.
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Little Maggie before she was kidnapped appeared to be living in a loving supportive home unless Susan was totally deceived. After the horrors she experienced, she was in another supportive loving home. So yes, she was severely traumatized, but she has also had a lot of loving support. She isn't totally unscathed, that is why she needs her therapy dog, Mouse. It is amazing what a therapy dog can do for someone suffering from severe PTSD, as any number of veterans who owe their lives and sanity to these wonderful animals can tell you. Most likely she has also blocked out the trauma she experienced, it all fit into a small time frame of a few days, she may have even been drugged or under a spell so she wouldn't fight what was about to happen to her. We also do not know if the Carpenters sought therapy for her.. That isn't to say it won't rear it's ugly head later on, she might even end up with multiple personalities.
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She's saving it all up for her teen years. Molly was also pretty good, when she was in sight of her parents. She was dressing provocatively, and changing in the treehouse before she'd go indoors.
I understand what you are saying; however, I don't think you can make any comparison between Molly and Maggie. Molly grew up loved, cared for, and was never in danger. While Maggie grew up loved and cared for, but was in severe danger. While Maggie might not remember it now, she probably will eventually. I think that Maggie is just compartmentalizing everything that has happened to her and that Mouse really helps her.
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It works like this. Set up peril. Ship to Michael's, because, what combat Wizard takes a child into battle? Kiss her goodby and tell her that daddy needs to kill monsters. Pick up after work. Rinse and repeat. Not what I'm paying to read.
That damned boat ride to Demonreach is only marginally better.
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It works like this. Set up peril. Ship to Michael's, because, what combat Wizard takes a child into battle? Kiss her goodby and tell her that daddy needs to kill monsters. Pick up after work. Rinse and repeat. Not what I'm paying to read.
That damned boat ride to Demonreach is only marginally better.
What would you have Harry done differently with little Maggie? As you say, he couldn't take her into battle, what Thomas did made it impossible to remain at their old home. So the best solution was to leave her at Michael's house, where there was at least the angelic modsquad on guard. It is what it is, how it all washes out in the next couple of years, I am sure Maggie will have problems in the coming years, flashbacks etc.. One thing no one mentions, while Harry and us lament on him killing her mother, does little Maggie even know that Susan was her mother? If she had been raised from birth to the kidnapping by that other family she might not fully understand the truth.
I agree, the boat scene wasn't that great..
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What would you have Harry done differently with little Maggie?
Not create her? As far as I can tell she has served two purposes. She motivated Changes and she's a potential source of income in a spinoff series. He could put her in boarding school and never mention her again in the main series and make better, tighter books. Which is my personal opinion and one which I'm sure isn't widely shared.
It may have occurred to you that Jim has more book ideas then he does life span. Almost certainly since he took a 6 year sabbatical he's exceeded my life span.
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Not create her? As far as I can tell she has served two purposes. She motivated Changes and she's a potential source of income in a spinoff series. He could put her in boarding school and never mention her again in the main series and make better, tighter books. Which is my personal opinion and one which I'm sure isn't widely shared.
Oh, I agree with you.
I actually resent her presence a bit, it takes away from Harry's development as well as other characters' in the series that are far more interesting and were actually there already. I really don't think she was a necessary addition to the series, I think Changes could have been brought on in some other way, it didn't have to be a child.
I think she stalls the story, and the books have been going a bit downhill since Changes, imo, except Battle Ground, in which she wasn't a character really but a thought (that could have been easily replaced by something or someone else).
Besides, Harry was already doing the whole "I'm responsible for this human being" thing with Molly, who thank god grew up, because I couldn't take much more of that teenage thing, but that's personal preference. I don't like children in adult stories, they stall.
About Maggie as a character, I dunno, she's not well fleshed imo, sometimes she doesn't sound the age she's supposed to be. Zoo day was interesting only because of Mouse. But then again, I really don't think I wanna see more of her, unless she starts going psychotic or something, I don't see her as being that interesting.
Same thing with the whole Bonnie thing, which gets all mixed up, is she a daughter or not? imo not, but people consider her as such.
And now we also have Thomas' child. I dunno, seems all so repetitive. And Jim probably has some great plan, but I dunno, these are additions that I haven't particularly enjoyed because they take away from what was already there and could have been developed otherwise.
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Not create her? As far as I can tell she has served two purposes. She motivated Changes and she's a potential source of income in a spinoff series. He could put her in boarding school and never mention her again in the main series and make better, tighter books. Which is my personal opinion and one which I'm sure isn't widely shared.
It may have occurred to you that Jim has more book ideas then he does life span. Almost certainly since he took a 6 year sabbatical he's exceeded my life span.
I don't disagree with you there, I was totally unhappy when she was created, I also don't like the whole Winter Knight/Mab gig either. But she is here now, and short of killing her off as well,which also gets kind of old,something has to be done with her.. Here is an idea, instead of Jim doing his version of Harry Potter, why not have Maggie turn out to be just a vanilla, human, muggle.. No spin offs, just your average pain in the ass teenager that Harry has to learn to cope with.
I fell in love with the series early on because it seemed different from the usual fantasy formula rehash, the struggling big city private detective openly practicing his art in a skeptical world appealed to me.. Now, I am not sure, and I think the ideas are running a bit thin, going for the shock, okay, kill of Murphy in a really dumb way then arrange a political marriage to a vampire... Who is technically his half sister even if they are not related by blood.. That is why I stand by what I've said for a while now, edit, edit, edit, wrap up the series with maybe three or four really well written stories instead of dragging it out thinner and thinner with one or two shocks every few years so we'd want to read the next book, and inevitably are a bit disappointed as many were after these last two efforts.
Yes, I've resigned myself that I won't live to see the end of the series. I know he has more book ideas than he has life span, but then he might benefit from focusing more, finish one series before he moves on to the next. Yes, they are still entertain, but in my opinion they could be a whole lot better..
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Here is an idea, instead of Jim doing his version of Harry Potter, why not have Maggie turn out to be just a vanilla, human, muggle.. No spin offs, just your average pain in the ass teenager that Harry has to learn to cope with.
Yes! I so want her to be a normal child, no powers, no nothing. He can do a series or whatever, that I doubt I'll read. But keep her a normal person, dealing with the supernatural maybe, but keep her vanilla. LOL, Dresden will be raising a little Murphy (i'm just joking).
I fell in love with the series early on because it seemed different from the usual fantasy formula rehash, the struggling big city private detective openly practicing his art in a skeptical world appealed to me.. Now, I am not sure, and I think the ideas are running a bit thin, going for the shock, okay, kill of Murphy in a really dumb way then arrange a political marriage to a vampire... Who is technically his half sister even if they are not related by blood..
OMG, she is his half sister, I also think of her in that way. I think the whole marriage thing it's the excuse to to bring Harry in close with the Librarias and the people working in the dark in the government, and also add to the Murphy thing, but I dunno, did we really need a wedding to the half sister for this? Also, it sorta changed Lara's character imo to fit with this, and I don't like it.
I know he has more book ideas than he has life span, but then he might benefit from focusing more, finish one series before he moves on to the next. Yes, they are still entertain, but in my opinion they could be a whole lot better..
YESSSSS!!
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Not create her? As far as I can tell she has served two purposes. She motivated Changes and she's a potential source of income in a spinoff series. He could put her in boarding school and never mention her again in the main series and make better, tighter books. Which is my personal opinion and one which I'm sure isn't widely shared.
It may have occurred to you that Jim has more book ideas then he does life span. Almost certainly since he took a 6 year sabbatical he's exceeded my life span.
Agree on all counts. And frankly, Jim does a better job making a fallen angel a rounded, believable character than he does this little girl. She just seems like a cipher; I keep on trying to imagine her acting and saying things on the page, and it doesn't fit right. Isn't Jim's sister writing the boarding-school spinoff? Maybe she'll do a better job making Maggie convincing.
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Little Maggie before she was kidnapped appeared to be living in a loving supportive home unless Susan was totally deceived. After the horrors she experienced, she was in another supportive loving home. So yes, she was severely traumatized, but she has also had a lot of loving support. She isn't totally unscathed, that is why she needs her therapy dog, Mouse. It is amazing what a therapy dog can do for someone suffering from severe PTSD, as any number of veterans who owe their lives and sanity to these wonderful animals can tell you. Most likely she has also blocked out the trauma she experienced, it all fit into a small time frame of a few days, she may have even been drugged or under a spell so she wouldn't fight what was about to happen to her. We also do not know if the Carpenters sought therapy for her.. That isn't to say it won't rear it's ugly head later on, she might even end up with multiple personalities.
Yeah, we're told she needs Mouse, but never shown it, in my opinion.
And fine, say she's a very resilient child--which I could buy! She should then act like, well, a child, which is to say she should pester people at inappropriate times, complain sometimes, be loud and annoying sometimes, etc. I am not a fiction writer (I wish I were), but she just doesn't feel right, and she's more of a plot point than a character.
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Honestly, I really don't mind Maggie or even Bonnie... what I do mind is the 6 year sabbatical. I'm only 52, but I also worry that I won't live to see the end of this series.
Burned by Robert Jordan. Burned by GRR Martin (no way he ever finishes his series)... I hope I don't get burned by Jim Butcher, but I fully expect to be.
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Yeah, we're told she needs Mouse, but never shown it, in my opinion.
And fine, say she's a very resilient child--which I could buy! She should then act like, well, a child, which is to say she should pester people at inappropriate times, complain sometimes, be loud and annoying sometimes, etc. I am not a fiction writer (I wish I were), but she just doesn't feel right, and she's more of a plot point than a character.
But as you pointed out, she isn't a normal child, she has suffered severe trauma. Yes, children are resilient, but the brain is a complicated organ, her mind may have blocked out most of what happened, but part of it may not be. For example that part of her mind that hasn't blocked it all out may be thinking what happened was her fault. Children who've been through this sort of thing often do, so deep down she thinks if she is a very, very, good girl, that horror won't happen to her again. Also think female Peter Pan, she acts younger than she is so she doesn't have to confront reality. I just finished reading in it's original form J.M. Barrie's Peter Pan and Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens in addition J.M. Barrie and The Lost Boys by Andrew Birken. Believe me the character of Peter is a lot more complicated then the Disney cartoon, honestly sad and a bit tragic in my opinion. In many ways, the character of Maggie reminds me of the character of Peter, on one hand we are told her intelligence is off the charts, yet Maggie acts and talks more like a six year old than a child of nearly eleven.
She does show she needs Mouse, he stands beside her, and her hand usually rests on his back or shoulder. This gives her assurance and makes her feel safe, he breaks the ice with other kids for her by just being himself.. You watch veterans with their emotional support dogs, yes, the dogs are well trained and behaved as Mouse is, but that is merely manners, the important bit is they are there for their master. They develop different ways to help their masters, anything from leaning against their leg to a paw or well placed nose and head, to relieve the tension they sense in their masters.
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grew up with 7 siblings of witch 4 were adopted. the trauma that breaks the soul happens at a very young age. I have an adopted brother who is in jail for murdering his girl friend and there might be more women he murdered over the years before he got caught. My brother is a sociopath. My brother had his soul destroyed before my parents ever adopted him. the way this happens is that at a young age trust in others is not learned becouse of physical and sexual abuse. I dont know the details of what happen to him what I do no is that his mom was a prostitute who was turning tricks for a biker gang. I know that her johns molested him and that he grew up never knowing if he was going to get to eat that day. This all happen before the age of six and was his whole life till he got abandoned at his grandmas house. She ended up a year later putting him in foster care at the age of seven becouse she could not handle him.
Maggie was never traumatized over an extended period of time like my brother. Maggie had loving foster parents that took care of her she did not have her spirit broken instead she saw her foster parents slaughtered and was held by vampires for a month maybe two. that traumatized Maggie but she did not lose her ability to care about others. Jim actualy does a good job portraying her reaction to the trauma in that she is emotionally delayed and has a maturity level of a much younger child. I would not be surprised if he consulted some child trauma experts before he wrote anything extensive about her.
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She's saving it all up for her teen years.
Or whenever she finds out daddy slit mommy's throat, after backing Martin's play to get her to turn, if that comes before her teenage years.
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Or whenever she finds out daddy slit mommy's throat, after backing Martin's play to get her to turn, if that comes before her teenage years.
If you put it that way, yes, she will be pissed.. However if little Maggie likes living and understands that is the only way her and her father could have been saved, maybe not so much.. She might also understand that her dear mother screwed up by keeping in contact with the family that adopted her, thus allowing for the Red King to find her, kidnap her, and murder her adoptive family in the first place... That might also make her just as pissed... Or she might be more understanding of why.. A lot depends on whether or not little Maggie is a thinking teenager or merely a reactionary angry one..
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We have never seen her angry but we have seen her thinking about everything.
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We have never seen her angry but we have seen her thinking about everything.
Yes, the important thing is that she is told the truth. If she is told to full truth, there is much for
her to be sad about, but very little to be angry about. Or if she is angry, it should be towards the ones that infected her mother in the first place and then kidnapped her, murdered her beloved adoptive family, then tried to sacrifice her in an effort to kill her father and grandfather. They are the ones responsible, not her father or mother, who may have made a series of stupid mistakes, but in the name of love, not malice.
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Kids' anger is not always rationally allocated. Being associated with unhappiness can make kids angry, even if the other party isn't to blame. It's also common to internalize blame and anger.
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Kids' anger is not always rationally allocated. Being associated with unhappiness can make kids angry, even if the other party isn't to blame. It's also common to internalize blame and anger.
But we have a Maggie pov story and I think that would have shown.
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But we have a Maggie pov story and I think that would have shown.
I agree with that with one reservation, teens can be irrational, it also depends somewhat on the
friends she has around her. However having said that, so far Maggie doesn't appear to be either
unhappy or angry with her situation, but teenagers can pull resentments out of thin air simply because they lack the life experience and maturity to understand. As Mark Twain put it and I paraphrase, " at twenty, I fought with my father, but at twenty-one I discovered how wise he had become.."
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Yes. I don't think Maggie's angry now, but I think she could become so as a teen.
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Yes. I don't think Maggie's angry now, but I think she could become so as a teen.
True, but some is normal in all teens, dealing with those pesky hormones... ::)
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She'd be a great candidate for a Fallen, like Lasciel.
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But there is also Mouses influence which makes these things less likely.
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But there is also Mouses influence which makes these things less likely.
Yeah, Mouse wouldn't let one of the Fallen get near her. I also don't see what any of the
Fallen have to offer her in the first place.
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I also don't see what any of the Fallen have to offer her in the first place.
Oh that part's easy.
"Your father goes out and takes on the dark scary things of the world. But one day he won't come back; he's fighting things more powerful than him every day, and one day they'll catch him. One day they'll kill him. One day something will kill Mouse, steal Bonnie, and you'll be left all alone. Poor defenseless Margaret, barely able to go to school without getting seizures. You'll be alone in the world, pitied by everyone, or worse... exploited.
But there's a way to prevent that. I can help you. Just take up the coin and I'll teach you how to stand there by his side, so you can face the darkness together, and when he needs help the most... It'll be YOU who saves HIM."
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Oh that part's easy.
"Your father goes out and takes on the dark scary things of the world. But one day he won't come back; he's fighting things more powerful than him every day, and one day they'll catch him. One day they'll kill him. One day something will kill Mouse, steal Bonnie, and you'll be left all alone. Poor defenseless Margaret, barely able to go to school without getting seizures. You'll be alone in the world, pitied by everyone, or worse... exploited.
But there's a way to prevent that. I can help you. Just take up the coin and I'll teach you how to stand there by his side, so you can face the darkness together, and when he needs help the most... It'll be YOU who saves HIM."
Or not.. If Maggie has powers of her own, she won't be too tempted by that. Also Michael has handled a lot of her upbringing, he will see to it that she knows the dangers.
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Maggie knows monsters.
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Oh that part's easy.
"Your father goes out and takes on the dark scary things of the world. But one day he won't come back; he's fighting things more powerful than him every day, and one day they'll catch him. One day they'll kill him. One day something will kill Mouse, steal Bonnie, and you'll be left all alone. Poor defenseless Margaret, barely able to go to school without getting seizures. You'll be alone in the world, pitied by everyone, or worse... exploited.
But there's a way to prevent that. I can help you. Just take up the coin and I'll teach you how to stand there by his side, so you can face the darkness together, and when he needs help the most... It'll be YOU who saves HIM."
Maggie - "Yeah but Bonnie knows all that stuff already and says it's overrated"
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Maggie - "Yeah but Bonnie knows all that stuff already and says it's overrated"
But she hasn't got it together yet..
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Or not.. If Maggie has powers of her own, she won't be too tempted by that. Also Michael has handled a lot of her upbringing, he will see to it that she knows the dangers.
That worked well with Molly, no? ;)
(sidenote: I never really bought just how far off the rails Molly went before/during PG. Seemed a bit of a stretch that her phase would go beyond piercings and crazy looks; after PG all her deviations are much closer to what I'd expect from an overconfident teen, while in PG she was approaching actively scummy)
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Molly was already sucked into the horrible positive-feedback cycle of black magic in PG; after that book, she had Harry to guide her.