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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: DonBugen on September 26, 2017, 02:46:27 AM
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I don’t know the answer to this. I have a suspicion, but I want to ask the class here and see what your thoughts are.
It’s implied, though never directly stated, that Mab doesn’t have a soul, as she’s not human but Fae.
I didn't meet Mab's eyes. I wasn't worried about a soulgaze any longer. Both parties had to have a soul for that to happen. But plenty of things can get to you if you make eye contact too long. It carries all sorts of emotions and metaphors. I stared at Mab's chin, my hand burning with pain, and said nothing because I was afraid.
One could argue that this is just an inexperienced Dresden just assuming that all fae don’t have souls. However, it appears that Harry and Mab do have moments where they stare deeply at each other and a soul gaze is not started. Case in point, Harry’s first moments in Cold Days.
I hadn't seen her picking up the thick, fluffy pillow beside me while she held my eyes. So I was totally unprepared when she struck, as fast as any snake, and slammed the pillow down over my face.
If Mab doesn’t have a soul, this is significant because she once did. She was human once, after all.
Mab did not turn around. When she spoke, her voice had something in it I had never heard there before and never heard again – uncertainty. Vulnerability.
“I was mortal once, you know,” she said, very quietly.
Evidence seems to show that the mantles of the Queens – at least, the Ladies – don’t come on all at once, but are gradual. Possibly related to choice. Evidence is seen with Lily’s first appearance as the Summer Lady. She says a LOT of untruths – most notably, that it’s the first time this power has come to a mortal.
Lily flushed prettily and nodded. "I know. I didn't want it, but when - when Aurora died, her power flowed into the nearest Summer vessel. Usually it would be one of the other Queens, but I had the Knight's power and it just sort of ... plopped in there."
I lifted my eyebrows and said, "Are you okay?
She frowned. "I'm not sure. It's a lot to think about. And it's the first time this kind of power has fallen to a mortal."
"You mean you're not, uh. You haven't?"
"Chosen?" Lily asked. She shook her head. "It's just me. I don't know what I'm going to do, but Titania said she'd teach me."
Now, IF Mab doesn’t have a soul, and the loss of one’s soul happens as one turns into Fae, then it does also follow that there’s a choice which must be made. The soul, apparently, is protected.
Bob shook his head. "I didn't think it was possible for them to do that to you. According to what I've heard, your soul's your own. I'd have thought you would have to walk into something like this willingly, but . . ."
I held up the heel of my hand and butted my forehead against it in steady rhythm.
"Oh, Harry," Bob said, his voice profoundly disappointed. "You didn't."
"They didn't explain it exactly the way you did," I said. "Not in so many words."
"But they gave you a choice?"
Captain Murphy had done exactly that. It had been phrased in such a way that I hadn't really had much of a choice, but I'd had a choice. "Yeah."
And the evidence is pretty plain that Molly didn’t choose the mantle. It just sorta happened to her, just like Aurora – it just plopped in the closest vessel of winter.
But there’s disturbing things about Molly. Dresden is beginning to fear that she’s more fae than human.
That stopped me in my tracks.
Cell phones were some of the technology that was absolutely the most sensitive to the unbalanced fields of energy around a mortal wizard. When one of us got near a powered-up cell phone, it was likely to kick the bucket right there.
Inhuman practitioners, on the other hand, had no problem with that effect whatsoever.
And I suddenly felt very afraid for Molly.
And furthermore, even if she didn’t choose her role in the beginning, she seems to have accepted it now.
I smiled at her a little. “Makes two of us,” I said. “How you holding up?”
Her eyes glittered. “It’s . . . been really interesting. It all looks very, very different from the inside.”
“Usually how it works,” I said. “Tell me about it?”
“Can’t, literally,” she said cheerfully and waved an airy hand. “Faerie mystique and all that.”
“Figures. You like it?”
“Not always,” she said without rancor. “But . . . it’s necessary work. Worth doing.”
So, everyone, my questions are:
A) Is Dresden correct, that a full Fae does not have a soul?
B) Does Molly still have her soul?
Discuss.
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As late as Proven Guilty Lily stil exhibited signs that she was still humanish or had human traits. A willingness to help beyond Fae Balance for instance, as well as old jokes between Friends. I would argue that Molly is like Harry in a battle to save her soul on multiple levels, and is in a lot of ways in more danger than Harry is, particularly since she isolates herself from her family who are her bed rock. Seriously outliving them is going to suuuuuck. Assuming she makes it.
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Jim has said that it's inevitable, but not immediate. That becoming fae (and presumably certain other supernatural entities) will cause a loss of the soul, but it's not an instant thing. Presumably it means that you've got X soul in you when you become fae, and once you use it up, it's gone, no amount of teppanyaki or sex with your boss brings it back.
So I'd say that, as it stands, Molly does still have her soul. Maybe even most of it. But it's only been a few years.
Also, note that Jim has also said that even regular old humans can lose their souls as well, just by being horrible enough. No supernatural intervention required.
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It is not a binary thing though it is presented as such in the earlier books. The whole plot in Cold Days is based on the fact that it is still difficult for Mab to kill her daughter even if her purpose demands it from her, there is still something of her soul left.
There is some later woj about it, the soul is a complicated thing and he is not sure even about Mab yet, we will see how it plays out.
At the moment Molly's soul is still there, these things take time depending on the person and the mantle.
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I would say her soul has been suppressed by her Mantle in order for her to perform her duties. If Mab still has a remnant after over a thousand years than Molly would still have most of hers even if it is not as easy to access.
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I would say her soul has been suppressed by her Mantle in order for her to perform her duties. If Mab still has a remnant after over a thousand years than Molly would still have most of hers even if it is not as easy to access.
Supressed and slowly consumed. Thematically, the biggest difference between a fallen and a Mantle is the Fallen is technically in the coin. The mantle wraps itself around your soul directly and the more you use it the more it replaces you. And... the biggest difference between a possession and a Mantle is the Mantle has no consciousness attached, its the subconscious mantle impressing upon the consciousness itself. All 3 are spiritual entities.
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Though with the death of Maeve, Mab showed some vulnerability and admitted to Harry she was "human" once. Kringle then warned Harry never to to tell anyone what he witnessed in Mab or have that kind of confrontation in front of anyone because she is very proud. Hint of still having a soul? Or just a frank admission that she was human at one time?
I think we are confusing behavior with facts.. One can have a soul and still act coldly, badly, or down right evil, the way that Denarians act for the most part under the influence of their coins, yet they still have souls.. Or at least the Nights of the Cross think so, their primary mission is the attempt to help them give up their coins and start on the road to redemption..
So having said all of that, does Mab still have a soul? If she does she'll never admit to it... Does Molly? I'd say she does and I doubt that she will lose it...
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Add in, it comes down to Molly's choices. I recall in Small Favor when Bob talked about things which will help Harry recover his soul when he uses Soul Fire. Like that, if Molly acts in intrinsically good ways, showing love and accepting love of family, being a good person, she can recover her soul. If she can save the children of Winter Fae from becoming soldiers, that will be a truly great act.
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Though with the death of Maeve, Mab showed some vulnerability and admitted to Harry she was "human" once. Kringle then warned Harry never to to tell anyone what he witnessed in Mab or have that kind of confrontation in front of anyone because she is very proud. Hint of still having a soul? Or just a frank admission that she was human at one time?
I think we are confusing behavior with facts.. One can have a soul and still act coldly, badly, or down right evil, the way that Denarians act for the most part under the influence of their coins, yet they still have souls.. Or at least the Nights of the Cross think so, their primary mission is the attempt to help them give up their coins and start on the road to redemption..
So having said all of that, does Mab still have a soul? If she does she'll never admit to it... Does Molly? I'd say she does and I doubt that she will lose it...
I think the discussion gets confused because we are not always talking about the same thing when we use the word soul, even in the dresdenverse.
It can be the thing Bob sees that you can exchange with other humans while hugging them or it can be an abstract thing, the essence of your being as Mother Summer describes it. Becoming evil can be described as loosing your soul because you are no longer the person you were so your essential You-ness is gone but you are still something.
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I have a working theory on souls, spirits, mantles, and free-will. One day, I am going to do a complete re-read and work it through in totality. But in essence;
Soul: What you are, your essence and identity, at your core.
Spirit: The rules and beliefs with which you operate in the world.
Mantle: A specific set of rules and beliefs.
Free Will: The ability for there to be conflict and influence between Soul and Spirit.
So, to my theory, a human taking on a mantle brings a powerful new spirit (set of rules and beliefs) into the Free Will conflict. The less the humans fight the Mantle, the more it is able to assert its influence upon the soul. Essentially, the mantle will eventually overcome the soul- wiping out free will in the process. You simply become a conduit for the rules and beliefs inherent in the mantle.
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I have a working theory on souls, spirits, mantles, and free-will. One day, I am going to do a complete re-read and work it through in totality. But in essence;
Soul: What you are, your essence and identity, at your core.
Spirit: The rules and beliefs with which you operate in the world.
Mantle: A specific set of rules and beliefs.
Free Will: The ability for there to be conflict and influence between Soul and Spirit.
So, to my theory, a human taking on a mantle brings a powerful new spirit (set of rules and beliefs) into the Free Will conflict. The less the humans fight the Mantle, the more it is able to assert its influence upon the soul. Essentially, the mantle will eventually overcome the soul- wiping out free will in the process. You simply become a conduit for the rules and beliefs inherent in the mantle.
And if you then take away the mantle what will that person be?
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Add in, it comes down to Molly's choices. I recall in Small Favor when Bob talked about things which will help Harry recover his soul when he uses Soul Fire. Like that, if Molly acts in intrinsically good ways, showing love and accepting love of family, being a good person, she can recover her soul. If she can save the children of Winter Fae from becoming soldiers, that will be a truly great act.
I think there's more to it than that. Lily was trying to act in intrinsically good ways, and she still got her personality substantially overwritten in a decade or so.
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I think there's more to it than that. Lily was trying to act in intrinsically good ways, and she still got her personality substantially overwritten in a decade or so.
I do not think it is that simple. A summer lady can act in good ways as well. It is about having a strong personality and acting in a Lilly way.
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Well, if their souls are lost, what happens to them? There is direct confirmation of an afterlife in the Dresden Universe. Does that soul get to move on when the mantle gets crammed in there? Will it ever? Because if it just gets consumed, then Mab sentenced Molly, Maeve, and Sarissa to actual, literal oblivion, eternity-wise.
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I think there's more to it than that. Lily was trying to act in intrinsically good ways, and she still got her personality substantially overwritten in a decade or so.
I think it's a bit telling that at the end of Summer Knight, Lily says that she hasn't yet made her choice on what to do. In Cold Days, she angrily says that she never had a choice. Lily can't lie, and she can't deceive herself... so what does she mean by this? I mean, if the soul is protected by choice, what can she mean?
I think that yes, this might be one of those gradual, little-at-a-time things, like how someone gives in to the fallen in a coin. Give an inch, then an inch, then an inch, and before you realize what you've done you're neck deep and sinking fast. And you didn't even realize you were making the choice to give up your humanity because it all happened so subtly.
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Well, if their souls are lost, what happens to them? There is direct confirmation of an afterlife in the Dresden Universe. Does that soul get to move on when the mantle gets crammed in there? Will it ever? Because if it just gets consumed, then Mab sentenced Molly, Maeve, and Sarissa to actual, literal oblivion, eternity-wise.
That is a very Christian point of view. Mab is not a Christian.
“To fulfill one’s purpose is not to be a slave, my daughter,” Mab said.
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That is a very Christian point of view. Mab is not a Christian.
It's a Dresden Files in book view. Also the idea of a soul is not limited to Christianity. Mab also is well aware of the White God, she makes note of it. She has a more knowledgeable, and complete understanding to God's existence making her in some ways closer to God than the most devout religious person who will always have at least a tiny bit of doubt, doubt Mab does not share.
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Well, if their souls are lost, what happens to them? There is direct confirmation of an afterlife in the Dresden Universe. Does that soul get to move on when the mantle gets crammed in there? Will it ever? Because if it just gets consumed, then Mab sentenced Molly, Maeve, and Sarissa to actual, literal oblivion, eternity-wise.
It seems to be a process of diminishment rather than switching off at a certain discrete point. The WOJ was that Mab might still have the tiniest spark of a soul somewhere in there, but it would be hard to ever know for sure. (Mind you, given that he has also said regular mortals can lose their soul through enough bad choices, a millennium or so of having to make brutally utilitarian choices as the military commander of reality's defenses at the gates might have taken quite a toll on her even without the effects of a mantle).
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That is a very Christian point of view. Mab is not a Christian.
I didn't mean to imply Christianity, and if it came off that way, I'm sorry; I was speaking of souls. We have several entities and several afterlives, including, for instance, Hades. There is direct proof and evidence that souls live on past death in some form or another—even if it's torturous. If a soul is a requirement for the afterlife—again, I'm not saying Heaven—and the Fae mantles, in some way or another, eliminate the soul, what happens to it? Does it still exist? Or did Mab (and is she herself) consign at least two daughters and a relative innocent to eventual Oblivion—cessation of existence?
Can, for instance, Aurora's soul, what was left of it, experienced some kind of afterlife? Or was her soul completely consumed, and there was nothing that could move on? And, if it was consumed, what happened to it? It can't be destroyed; it has to be converted in some fashion, assuming that thermodynamics applies. Is it used up as fuel for the Mantle? What happens when it runs out completely?
It's like when Dresden worries about using too much Soulfire and, you know, dying. The Soulfire I can understand, because it's converting soul to energy multiplicatively. My questions are basically if there is a similar function that takes place with the mantles?
All that other stuff aside, even taking the Christian point of view into account—how will Michael, whose whole life is built around Catholicism, react if he finds out about the soul thing? From his perspective, assuming the above suppositions are true, his firstborn will never, no matter what, be able to join him in Paradise.
I'll be over here trying to get the image of a weeping Michael out of my head now.
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It can be the thing Bob sees that you can exchange with other humans while hugging them or it can be an abstract thing, the essence of your being as Mother Summer describes it. Becoming evil can be described as loosing your soul because you are no longer the person you were so your essential You-ness is gone but you are still something.
However does that mean you no longer have a soul? Turning the argument on it's head, an evil person can repent and gain redemption, their "you-ness" has also totally changed.. So did they gain a soul? They indeed had a "You-ness" before, but it was evil... There are dark souls out there as well...
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It's a Dresden Files in book view.
A view of the dresden files in book christians.
Also the idea of a soul is not limited to Christianity.
It is also about what happens with it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if in the dresden files hindus get reincarnated and christians not. The books are pretty vague about what next is, it is entirely possible.
Besides knowing about the soul and an afterlife is not the same as valueing it. Maybe you want to escape the cycle. Maybe you want to stay behind as a shade to help your descendants. Maybe you want to find a purpose like Mab did.
Mab also is well aware of the White God, she makes note of it. She has a more knowledgeable, and complete understanding to God's existence making her in some ways closer to God than the most devout religious person who will always have at least a tiny bit of doubt, doubt Mab does not share.
The white god is a title you use if you are not a follower. The white god was not that important in the past and he might not be that important in the future. Things change.
She knows Hades as well, a lot of souls went to the him in stead of the Christian afterlife. She probably expected to go somewhere else.
It is not just about what is but also about how you look at it. Why would she want to be a shade attending some god that is not hers? She has a purpose, she has fullfillment. Eternity is overrated.
Ask Gard, she will tell something similar.
I think Michael will be concerned but strangely enough I think Uriel is not, I do not see any evidence for it in the books.
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I think there's more to it than that. Lily was trying to act in intrinsically good ways, and she still got her personality substantially overwritten in a decade or so.
Lily's personality change may also be because of making her Choice and becoming more like her fae side; I'm not sure Dresdenverse nixie's are renowned for their strength of will and Lily never seemed like a particularly sharp tool prior to assuming the mantle.
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However does that mean you no longer have a soul? Turning the argument on it's head, an evil person can repent and gain redemption, their "you-ness" has also totally changed.. So did they gain a soul? They indeed had a "You-ness" before, but it was evil... There are dark souls out there as well...
Actually there's a woj that states criminals of a certain caliber don't have a soul anymore. i.e. Serial killers and psychopaths. I'll look for that real quick, see if I can spot it.
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Actually there's a woj that states criminals of a certain caliber don't have a soul anymore. i.e. Serial killers and psychopaths. I'll look for that real quick, see if I can spot it.
Which may just be another way of using the word soul.
It is strongly implied that corpstaker still had a soul and she was a mass murderer.
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Which may just be another way of using the word soul
Huh?
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Which may just be another way of using the word soul.
It is strongly implied that corpstaker still had a soul and she was a mass murderer.
I disagree. She had a spirit. Not a soul. Assuming you're talking about her plan to reincarnate herself.
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Lily's personality change may also be because of making her Choice and becoming more like her fae side; I'm not sure Dresdenverse nixie's are renowned for their strength of will and Lily never seemed like a particularly sharp tool prior to assuming the mantle.
I don't think she ever Chose fae. There was a WOJ that she was just mistaken at the end of SK in thinking she had a choice left at all - the clock was already ticking for her.
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The white god was not that important in the past and he might not be that important in the future.
Please show in book information, or woj that says this.
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Please show in book information, or woj that says this.
That is historical. There was a time people did not even know who he was. There is also Hades comment that souls used to go to him and not to other places. And those souls are still there, with him.
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I disagree. She had a spirit. Not a soul. Assuming you're talking about her plan to reincarnate herself.
Lea said she was like Harry. She would be alive again when she got a body. It was her, not some ghost. Corpstakers essence in Mab's terms, the soul of corpstakers being. Uriel got a certain satisfaction when she got carried away at the end. There is every indication that plan could have succeeded.
If evil people don't have a soul what is the point of the southbound train?
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I don't think she ever Chose fae. There was a WOJ that she was just mistaken at the end of SK in thinking she had a choice left at all - the clock was already ticking for her.
You do not always have a choice in everything even if you have free will, some things are just forced upon you.
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That is historical.
No, that's conjecture. Not knowing about a thing does not remove the thing's existence. Stating the White God was not important in the past is conjecture. Uriel stated that he was fighting wars before Earth even existed. So TWG, and his Angels were around in the past, and that's in book information.
There is also Hades comment that souls used to go to him and not to other places
In book cannon states that the Angels job is to ensure Choice... If mortals chose to believe in a place like the Underworld, and Hades, it makes sense that he would get souls. People made their choice to believe in it.
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Jonas, I’d be very interested to hear your WOJ on mortals losing their souls due to hideous acts yet continuing to live without souls. In fact, I’d actually like to challenge you on that, because it’s book-canon that all mortals have them, and anything that appears mortal but doesn’t trigger the soul gaze must be inhuman.
"Why should I?" I snarled, and for once I didn't avert my eyes. I stared into her gleaming amber eyes and braced myself for the impact of looking into her soul, and for her to peer into mine.
Instead, nothing happened.
That, in itself, was enough to make my jaw drop incredulously. I continued the stare, and she didn't blink, didn't turn away - and didn't fall into soulgaze with me. I shuddered in reaction. What was going on? Why didn't the 'gaze begin? There were only two kinds of people whose eyes I could meet for more than a second or two: the people who had already met my eyes in a soulgaze were one kind; inhuman beings from the Nevernever were the other.
I had never looked upon Tera West's soul before. I remembered a soulgaze, every time it happened. The experience wasn't the sort of thing you could forget. That only left one conclusion.
Whoever she was - whatever she was, Tera West wasn't human.
I mean, it’s always possible that Harry’s wrong. But I'm certain that either Justin or Ebenezer would have taught him the information he's stating about soul gazes, and I can't think of a good reason why either would be mistaken or intentionally misleading him. Furthermore, nothing in the Dresden Files ever seems to support that horrible people who have caused pain, death, and suffering on an exponential scale lose their souls. Laura Raith and John Marcone, for example, but have souls. Hell, even Rasmussen has a soul, and at that point he was slaughtering people as Ursiel for generations.
By the way, Corpsetaker’s an interesting case. It (and I’m referring to the Corpsetaker as It because she/he has identified as both, and has no fixed sex) doesn’t trigger a soulgaze when Harry stares at it in Ghost Story – possibly due to Harry being an emaciated soul and the Corpsetaker also being in spirit form – but then when it possesses Butters, it does soul gaze Molly.
I see two different possibilities. The first, and probably less likely, is that the Corpsetaker was a true ghost in Ghost Story – just an impression of the original person, but not them at all – and that it somehow created a soul by eating the spooks. The second, and more likely, is that its ability to swap its soul back and forth between person and person allowed it to ‘jump ship’ when Harry killed Luccio’s body, so Corpsetaker has been running around as a naked soul since Dead Beat. In this case, Dresden didn't trigger a soul gaze because he didn't have enough of a soul to do so, not the other way around.
But yeah, Corpsetaker soul gazes Molly. There’s no question about it. Corpsetaker has a soul, too.
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Jim didn't say people lose their souls from doing bad things. He said that you lose parts of it, over time from doing bad things or words to that effect. The question is how much do you lose per act, and how much do you regenerate which it does do. If someone loses their entire soul, they would probably die just as Harry would if he used too much soulfire, according to Bob.
The way Jim described it, as I remember is that even Mab may still have some left. Mortals lose parts of their souls from doing bad things but mortals lives end probably before their entire soul is consumed. The difference between a mortal, and someone like Mab is that Mab lives much much longer giving her more and more time to lose bits, and pieces.
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All that other stuff aside, even taking the Christian point of view into account—how will Michael, whose whole life is built around Catholicism, react if he finds out about the soul thing? From his perspective, assuming the above suppositions are true, his firstborn will never, no matter what, be able to join him in Paradise.
I'll be over here trying to get the image of a weeping Michael out of my head now.
I know, right? And more than that, I wonder how Molly is really doing. I doubt that if she was horribly regretting it she'd be able to flat-out say anything. You notice in Skin Game that she never actually goes out and says that she likes being the Winter Lady, or that she's OK with it. She doesn't say anything flat out.
I mean, I know that Harry mentioned at one point that Molly had a healthy dose of skepticism on organized religion, but there's a big difference between liking organized religion and believing in God. She literally lives in a world where she not only knows that the faith her parents taught her is real, she has constant proof of it. I mean, an archangel just hung out with them for the weekend and made blueberry pancakes.
If she did lose her soul, imagine KNOWING that the rest of your family, everyone you know, would live on for eternity in paradise... and that you would live for a very, very long time, but when you died, that would be it. You would just be done, and cease to be.
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I know, right? And more than that, I wonder how Molly is really doing. I doubt that if she was horribly regretting it she'd be able to flat-out say anything.
Lilly could so Molly can do so as well.
You notice in Skin Game that she never actually goes out and says that she likes being the Winter Lady, or that she's OK with it. She doesn't say anything flat out.
We have her inner monologue in Cold Case.
I mean, I know that Harry mentioned at one point that Molly had a healthy dose of skepticism on organized religion, but there's a big difference between liking organized religion and believing in God. She literally lives in a world where she not only knows that the faith her parents taught her is real, she has constant proof of it. I mean, an archangel just hung out with them for the weekend and made blueberry pancakes.
Sanya is wielding that sword and he is still sceptical about some things.
If she did lose her soul, imagine KNOWING that the rest of your family, everyone you know, would live on for eternity in paradise...
Actually what is next is not that certain. We have the stories of course but everyone we think has some knowledge about it refuses to tell anything.
and that you would live for a very, very long time, but when you died, that would be it. You would just be done, and cease to be.
Knowing you had done something that really mattered, defending reality itself. At the moment you try to save your soul at the cost of everything and everyone you are not really saving it. Molly has a purpose now and that purpose is important.
Molly also has a very strong sense of duty.
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Lilly could so Molly can do so as well. We have her inner monologue in Cold Case. Sanya is wielding that sword and he is still sceptical about some things. Actually what is next is not that certain. We have the stories of course but everyone we think has some knowledge about it refuses to tell anything. Knowing you had done something that really mattered, defending reality itself. At the moment you try to save your soul at the cost of everything and everyone you are not really saving it. Molly has a purpose now and that purpose is important.
Molly also has a very strong sense of duty.
I haven't read Cold Case yet, or any of the others that will be in Brief Cases, mostly because I refuse to buy a short story compendium (I don't particularly like short stories as a format; writing them was always a chore for me, so I stuck with novels with backstory notes; reading them tends to feel rushed to me) for one entry. I don't know what her inner monologue is like, but I'm excited to find out.
I'd argue that doing something worthwhile and having a purpose is great, but that doesn't mean you're happy about the price. No matter what, Molly is paying a price, and will continue to pay it, for a very, very long time (barring, you know, destruction of reality). It's made worse since this wasn't something Molly went into willingly, with any real grasp of the consequences. The Winter Lady's Mantle was shoved down her throat.
Being willing to pay a cost to make the best of a bad situation is different from being happy about it. She may not care about it in a hundred years when the Mantle asserts itself and pieces of Molly's personality get chipped away, but I'd be willing to bet she cares now.
I'd say that things may be turning out for the best with Molly as the Winter Lady, but that doesn't preclude it from being tragic.
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Lilly could so Molly can do so as well.
Lilly was Summer, not Winter. I can see Winter being very much of the "don't admit weakness" while Summer is much more into sharing.
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This question is of particular interest to me, so I'd asked Jim about and was GREATLY unsatisfied by his answer.
I think what is meant is that someone does not give up that energy (if you will) that is your soul. What happens is it is your's when you are able to continue to make choices for the good.
Meaning if you lose your soul, what you've done is made so many decisions to be bad/evil/dark that it's almost impossible for you to make any decisions that are not bad/evil/dark. That you have basically given up your free will to the Darkness. The more you seek power, for whatever reason, the more likely you are darken your soul. The whole Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Mab may still have a spark of a soul, because she still believes she's doing what is good, even if the means are at times bad. She is totally Fae though, no matter what.
Molly still has most of her soul because she hasn't made those decisions that have "darkened" her soul to the point where she sees no choice but the dark choices..
I think Harry's assertion in the beginning of the series that the Fae have no souls is either wrong, or that their souls have changes so much, have lost so much of the ability to exercise Free will, that they are no longer recognizable by another (mortal's) soul.
I believe that if someone else tried to soul gaze Molly now, it would work. That her soul has not been so twisted and darkened yet to be un-touchable by another soul.
As to Lily ... Jim said that she had made her choice through her actions. She was just in denial about it. No clue about her soul thought.
As to Bob's having said that Lily was basically just Aurora after 10 years, I think he's making an assumption. Remember he didn't see Lily (or Aurora that we know of) either before she was Queen, nor when he'd made the 10-year comment.
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Jonas, I’d be very interested to hear your WOJ on mortals losing their souls due to hideous acts yet continuing to live without souls. In fact, I’d actually like to challenge you on that, because it’s book-canon that all mortals have them, and anything that appears mortal but doesn’t trigger the soul gaze must be inhuman.
I recall the one he's referring to (something about "just look at the average newscast"), but I see your point that it seems incompatible with what we know of soulgazes. Nicodemus is pretty much the paragon of human evil, and Harry is pretty sure a look in his eyes would be the next best thing to madness-inducing, rather than just nothing at all.
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I recall the one he's referring to (something about "just look at the average newscast"), but I see your point that it seems incompatible with what we know of soulgazes. Nicodemus is pretty much the paragon of human evil, and Harry is pretty sure a look in his eyes would be the next best thing to madness-inducing, rather than just nothing at all.
Yea if I could find it, didn't even see this until you quoted it btw. I Looked but because of the broad variety of questions and topics that it could be thrown into I might have just plain missed it in the reference collection itself. Reply to Free will? Dark Magic? Fae? Another similarly worded question? Perhaps it's not even in there directly, but I'm positive I actually read this and not listened to it.
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A view of the dresden files in book christians.It is also about what happens with it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if in the dresden files hindus get reincarnated and christians not. The books are pretty vague about what next is, it is entirely possible.
Besides knowing about the soul and an afterlife is not the same as valueing it. Maybe you want to escape the cycle. Maybe you want to stay behind as a shade to help your descendants. Maybe you want to find a purpose like Mab did.The white god is a title you use if you are not a follower. The white god was not that important in the past and he might not be that important in the future. Things change.
She knows Hades as well, a lot of souls went to the him in stead of the Christian afterlife. She probably expected to go somewhere else.
It is not just about what is but also about how you look at it. Why would she want to be a shade attending some god that is not hers? She has a purpose, she has fullfillment. Eternity is overrated.
Ask Gard, she will tell something similar.
I think Michael will be concerned but strangely enough I think Uriel is not, I do not see any evidence for it in the books.
The same story [Backup] seemed to imply that entities could gain or lose power retroactively, in a wibbley-wobbly timey-wimey sort of way. For example, The Almighty is the Creator of the Universe, but He hasn't always been the Creator of the Universe[4] . Is there anything to this assumption, and if so, might we see it explored in greater detail later?
Jim: 7) You're assigning limits where there aren't any. In the Dresden Files universe, what changes really isn't the actual beings. It's our understanding of who and what they are
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Great thread. Raises a lot of the important questions. I'll try to put some of my thoughts in order:
1. Molly had a choice about becoming the winter lady. When the power came to her she could have chosen to resist and been killed. Choice in a "convert or die" situation is still a choice.
2. To my mind, the mantle suppresses access to the soul. If one has a strong enough soul, and the strength to exercise it by actively using their free will, than the soul may survive and be useable, but if not it just slowly gets ground down until it is effectively not there. This explains why you can't soulgaze a fey (because the soul is suppressed) but I think that Mab actively exercised free will in not immediately just killing Maeve, which would have been the most winter-ish action that her Mantle should have pushed her toward.
3. The soul of a mortal is never "destroyed" especially not by making dark choices. After all, those dark choices are still choices, and an exercise of free will.
So in my thoughts, her soul is still present, somewhere, but it is a much bigger struggle to exercise it than it used to be. She can still be saved if the Mantle is removed.
My big question about the soul is the one that has been discussed before about ghosts. Harry and the Corpsetaker may have been running around in the souls, but the old british soldier should not have been, his ghost was supposed to be just a ghost, and yet at the end of the book we see him getting a job offer from an angel. How can a ghost work for an angel in a job peopled by souls? Shouldn't his soul already be wherever it was judged to be? Are all ghosts souls? Then how was there a live Harry and a ghost Harry simultaneously? It gets very murky very quick.
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I do it think that Stuart was a soul as well even if he did not know it himself. He was just stronger than the rest and Uriels interest points in that direction.
Clearly you can choos to stay behind if your spirit is strong enough Uriel and Harry even discussed that possibility at the end of ghost story but Uriel said Harry's spiritual essence had become too weak. It is what necromancers can do if they want to return but also if you strongly feel something needs to be done. Maybe it is how ancestor worship originated.
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I do it think that Stuart was a soul as well even if he did not know it himself. He was just stronger than the rest and Uriels interest points in that direction.
He's a Roman ancestor spirit,(well, he's the same thing anyway) it's why he kept his self all those years, he had a purpose in protecting his lineage. He talks about in GS how all ghosts start to loose themselves eventually. I can't recall directly but something about that caught me up one day about why he never did, classically, ancestor spirits don't drift apart into shades or... whatever they called them.
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I haven't read Cold Case yet, or any of the others that will be in Brief Cases, mostly because I refuse to buy a short story compendium (I don't particularly like short stories as a format; writing them was always a chore for me, so I stuck with novels with backstory notes; reading them tends to feel rushed to me) for one entry. I don't know what her inner monologue is like, but I'm excited to find out.
I'd argue that doing something worthwhile and having a purpose is great, but that doesn't mean you're happy about the price. No matter what, Molly is paying a price, and will continue to pay it, for a very, very long time (barring, you know, destruction of reality). It's made worse since this wasn't something Molly went into willingly, with any real grasp of the consequences. The Winter Lady's Mantle was shoved down her throat.
Being willing to pay a cost to make the best of a bad situation is different from being happy about it. She may not care about it in a hundred years when the Mantle asserts itself and pieces of Molly's personality get chipped away, but I'd be willing to bet she cares now.
I'd say that things may be turning out for the best with Molly as the Winter Lady, but that doesn't preclude it from being tragic.
Not reading the short stories is like saying no thanks to icing on the cake. They often tie into and expand many parts of the overall story. But, to each their own.
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Sir Stuart makes it actually pretty clear that he is not a soul, when Harry, Mort, and he are all riding out to Karrin's house. He identifies himself as another spirit, who is not the original Sir Stuart. This happens when Morty and Sir Stuart are discussing that the reason ghosts are created is usually because they have some unfinished business. Sir Stuart says that he chooses, then, to take comfort in that he is his own person, who came into being specifically with a purpose - presumably, to protect his family.
I gave Sir Stuart the eye and then Mort. "That's what you do? Lay spirits to rest?"
Mort shrugged. "If someone didn't, this town would run out of cemetery space pretty fast."
I thought about for a moment. Then I said, "So how come you haven't laid Sir Stuart to rest?"
Mort said nothing. His silence was a barbed, stony thing.
Sir Stuart leaned forward to put a hand on Mort's shoulder, seemed to squeeze it a little, and let go. Then he said to me, "Some things can't be mended, lad. Not by all the king's horses or all the king's men."
"You're trapped here," I said quietly.
"Were I trapped, it would indicate that I am the original Sir Stuart. I am not. I am but his shade. One could think of it that way nonetheless, I suppose," he said. "But I prefer to consider it differently: I regard myself as someone who was truly created with a specific purpose for his existence. I have a reason to be who and what and where I am. How many flesh-and-blood folk can say as much?"
I scowled as I watched the snowy road ahead of us. "And what's your purpose? Looking out after this loser?"
"Hey, I'm sitting right here," Mort complained.
"I help other lost spirits," Sir Stuart said. "Help them find some sort of resolution. Help teach them how to stay sane, if it is their destiny to become a mane. And if they become a lemur, I help introduce them to oblivion."
I turned to frown at Sir Stuart. "That's . . . kinda cut-and-dried."
"Some things assuredly are," he replied placidly.
"So you're a mane, eh? Like the old Roman ancestral ghost?"
"It isn't such a simple matter, Dresden.
As to why Uriel is interested in Sir Stuart - simply because Stuart is a shade, does that mean that he has no use at all to someone like Uriel? I sincerely doubt it. But if this is something difficult to accept, then I also will mention that Uriel mentioned that in taking Sir Stuart on, he would be using his power - which is Soulfire, essentially - to rebuild him. And possibly, like the Six Million Dollar Man, better than he was before.
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Doesn't Uriel also say something along the line of Sir Stuart is more than he's had to work with before?
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Yes, though Uriel still identifies him as a spirit; just a far greater one than most. And he also refers to the original Sir Stuart as a separate being.
I went back over to Uriel to find him conversing with Sir Stuart.
"Don't know," Sir Stuart was saying. "I'm not . . . not as right as I used to be, sir."
"There's more than enough left to rebuild on," Uriel said. "Trust me. The ruins of a spirit like Sir Stuart's are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up. I'd be very pleased to have you working for me."
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Many creations start out as simple ideas.
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Sir Stuart makes it actually pretty clear that he is not a soul, when Harry, Mort, and he are all riding out to Karrin's house. He identifies himself as another spirit, who is not the original Sir Stuart. This happens when Morty and Sir Stuart are discussing that the reason ghosts are created is usually because they have some unfinished business. Sir Stuart says that he chooses, then, to take comfort in that he is his own person, who came into being specifically with a purpose - presumably, to protect his family.
As to why Uriel is interested in Sir Stuart - simply because Stuart is a shade, does that mean that he has no use at all to someone like Uriel? I sincerely doubt it. But if this is something difficult to accept, then I also will mention that Uriel mentioned that in taking Sir Stuart on, he would be using his power - which is Soulfire, essentially - to rebuild him. And possibly, like the Six Million Dollar Man, better than he was before.
That is what he thinks he is. But they were sure Harry was just a ghost as well, that ghosts often deluded themselves in thinking they were something else. Stuart does not want to delude himself that he is more than he is. What the story shows about people is more important than what they say about themselves.
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Yes, though Uriel still identifies him as a spirit; just a far greater one than most. And he also refers to the original Sir Stuart as a separate being.
The words are often not that precisely used as we want to like:
“I got shot. Or drowned. Ain’t exactly rare.” Jack lifted a big, square hand and waggled it back and forth. “It isn’t about the physical. It’s about the spiritual.”
But here I think it is used more precise but I interpred it differently. Take this as a clue:
“I can’t talk to you about that,” he said. “What comes next is about faith, Harry. Not knowledge.”
I folded my arms. “What if I dig the ghost routine?”
“You don’t,” Uriel replied. “But even if you did, I would point out to you that your spiritual essence has been all but disintegrated. You would not last long as a shade, nor would you have the strength to aid and protect your loved ones. Should you lose your sanity, you might even become a danger to them—but if that is your desire, I can facilitate it.”
Uriel is talking about rebuilding Stuarts spirirtual essence and Stuart is talking about his spiritual weakness. His spirit is still stronger than what most men have when they die. And it can be rebuild. But what Stuart needs to rebuild it is a soul.
I went back over to Uriel to find him conversing with Sir Stuart.
"Don't know," Sir Stuart was saying. "I'm not . . . not as right as I used to be, sir."
I is the complete sir Stuart including his soul. His weakness is weakness of spirit.
"There's more than enough left to rebuild on," Uriel said. "Trust me. The ruins of a spirit like Sir Stuart's
The difference between spirit and soul again but nowhere is said that the soul is not there as well, it is just not weakened. It is there to rebuild the spirit.
are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up. I'd be very pleased to have you
You is the essential Sir Stuart, the soul to be saved.
working for me."
I do not think Uriel has mere ghosts working for him and I do not think even Uriel can rebuild a spirit if there is no soul to work with. or would be interested in doing so.
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That is what he thinks he is. But they were sure Harry was just a ghost as well, that ghosts often deluded themselves in thinking they were something else. Stuart does not want to delude himself that he is more than he is. What the story shows about people is more important than what they say about themselves.
I will agree that there certainly could be more to Sir Stuart than meets the eye, and that he could be a self-deluded shade in the other way - convinced that he is a shade when he really is a free soul. I just don't see the evidence, though, myself.
Uriel is talking about rebuilding Stuarts spirirtual essence and Stuart is talking about his spiritual weakness. His spirit is still stronger than what most men have when they die. And it can be rebuild. But what Stuart needs to rebuild it is a soul.
I'm not quite following you there. What evidence do you have to state that Sir Stuart needs a soul in order to rebuild himself?
Throughout Ghost Story, we see that memories are what makes up a shade. Sir Stuart spends a memory to fire his pistol, and regains back part of himself when he absorbs that musket shot back. Dresden was attacked by lemurs who were gorging on his memories, and after Bob attacked them, Harry re-absorbed his memories and healed himself. But when Sir Stuart had his memories burned - fire is, after all, a cleansing force - there was nothing to re-absorb.
"Come on," I said. "Don't talk like that. We'll get you patched up."
Sir Stuart let out a small laugh. "Nay, wizard. Too much of me has been lost. I've only held together this long so that I could speak to you."
"What happened to our world being mutable in time with our expectations? Isn't that still true?"
"To a degree," Sir Stuart said affably, weakly. "I've been injured before. Small hurts are restored simply enough." He gestured at his broken body. "But this? I'll be like the others when I restore myself."
"The others?"
"The warriors who defended Mortimer's home," he said. "They faded over time. Forgetting, little by little, about their mortal lives."
The evidence is that Sir Stuart's memories are what makes him who he is.
"Aye," Sir Stuart said. "'Tis a muzzle-loading pistol, boy. You have to reload them like a proper weapon." Idly, he reached out a hand toward the last remnants of a deceased wraith, and flickers of light and memory flowed across the intervening space and into his fingertips. When he had it all back, Sir Stuart sighed and shook his head, seeming to recover a measure of strength. "Very well, then, lad. Help me up."
As for your arguments...
I is the complete sir Stuart including his soul. His weakness is weakness of spirit.
That's certainly one interpretation... however, I think that when Sir Stuart says that he's not what he once was, he's still referring to the massive injury that he sustained. Sir Stuart might have remembered a little bit about himself by fighting again, but he's still far away from being whole. There's a gigantic difference between the cool, collected, professional Sir Stuart of the beginning of Ghost Story and the confused, somewhat vacant shell left at the end.
"There's more than enough left to rebuild on," Uriel said. "Trust me. The ruins of a spirit like Sir Stuart's
The difference between spirit and soul again but nowhere is said that the soul is not there as well, it is just not weakened. It is there to rebuild the spirit.
are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up. I'd be very pleased to have you
You is the essential Sir Stuart, the soul to be saved.
I don't see it. You're dividing up Uriel's speech and saying that he isn't saying what he's saying. You're claiming that Uriel is really talking about the soul and using as evidence that he's not saying Sir Stuart doesn't have a soul. That's like me stating that Andi is a great transgendered hero of the story, and using as evidence the fact that she never explicitly states that she wasn't born a little boy named Andrew.
You need something more substantial than that. You can't use as evidence the fact that someone doesn't mention something unless the fact that the information is missing is conspicuous. If 99.9% of creatures appearing to be ghosts are simply created spirits, it doesn't cast sudden suspicion that Uriel doesn't call out the fact that Sir Stuart doesn't have a soul. Can you point to somewhere in the books that state that a spirit like Sir Stuarts' must have a soul, or that Uriel would only work with deceased mortals and not with spirits? I mean, I can point to sections of the Christian Bible which suggest that there are spirits who DO serve God, but that's our world, not Dresden's.
Besides, you sort of sidestepped the fact that when Uriel speaks to Sir Stuart, he refers to the original in the third person. If Sir Stuart was the soul of the real Sir Stuart, and not an impression created upon death, there would be no reason for Uriel to say "The remains of a spirit like Sir Stuart's. Sir Stuart would be right there, and Uriel wouldn't be talking of him in the third person. Instead, the phrasing would naturally be, "The remains of a spirit like yours are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up."
I do not think Uriel has mere ghosts working for him and I do not think even Uriel can rebuild a spirit if there is no soul to work with. or would be interested in doing so.
What makes you disregard the one piece of evidence that Uriel does have mere ghosts working for him as untrue?
Furthermore, what makes you believe that a being that can destroy solar systems without a second thought, and works for a being who is beyond time itself, cannot recreate the memories that Sir Stuart lost? What makes you so certain that a soul is necessary?
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Creating is always more difficult than destroying, Ask Bob. Maybe it is more impressive to create one soul than to destroy the universe.
And even if Uriel could create a soul that wouldn't be the same one. Uriel talked about rebuilding not building something new. The soul is the essential Stuartness, without it the spirit is only a collection of memories. Adding new memories without a soul to work, without them being your own memories will just damage you.
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Quote from: Arjan on September 26, 2017, 12:13:40 PM
A view of the dresden files in book christians.It is also about what happens with it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if in the dresden files hindus get reincarnated and christians not. The books are pretty vague about what next is, it is entirely possible.
Besides knowing about the soul and an afterlife is not the same as valueing it. Maybe you want to escape the cycle. Maybe you want to stay behind as a shade to help your descendants. Maybe you want to find a purpose like Mab did.The white god is a title you use if you are not a follower. The white god was not that important in the past and he might not be that important in the future. Things change.
She knows Hades as well, a lot of souls went to the him in stead of the Christian afterlife. She probably expected to go somewhere else.
It is not just about what is but also about how you look at it. Why would she want to be a shade attending some god that is not hers? She has a purpose, she has fullfillment. Eternity is overrated.
Ask Gard, she will tell something similar.
I think Michael will be concerned but strangely enough I think Uriel is not, I do not see any evidence for it in the books.
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The same story [Backup] seemed to imply that entities could gain or lose power retroactively, in a wibbley-wobbly timey-wimey sort of way. For example, The Almighty is the Creator of the Universe, but He hasn't always been the Creator of the Universe[4] . Is there anything to this assumption, and if so, might we see it explored in greater detail later?
Jim: 7) You're assigning limits where there aren't any. In the Dresden Files universe, what changes really isn't the actual beings. It's our understanding of who and what they are
That is absolutely beautiful. It means that nothing we say about it has to have any meaning at all when our understanding changes. Because our understanding can change significantly.So if our understanding is that souls reincarnate then that is what happens, at least as we understand it.
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Not reading the short stories is like saying no thanks to icing on the cake. They often tie into and expand many parts of the overall story. But, to each their own.
I read the Dresden Files short stories, specifically for that reason, but I don't read any from other authors. I haven't even bothered with the novellas for the Iron Druid books (though mostly because all of the side characters' narrations are annoyingly written in present tense, which I find extremely tedious). I meant that I was waiting for Brief Cases rather than buying a dozen other anthologies for the single entries I actually want to read. I went through Side Jobs and the Bigfoot trilogy because they were self-contained. It's one of the reasons I was pumped when Brief Cases was announced last month; there are gaps I want to fill.
As for Sir Stuart: Soul or not, I want to know what Uriel's got him doing now. Maybe we'll get to check in with Mort in Peace Talks.
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As to the original topic, I recall Bob mentioning that we leave bits of our souls around all the time but they regrow. I think the key to that regrowth is our human connections.
The Fae still leave bits of soul around, but without han connections, they don't regrow them. In Cold Days Mab only had the tiniest sliver of soul because she still had one connection to a normal mundane life - Sarissa. Now that Sarissa is Fae, Mab is going to fade quickly until Harry is forced to kill her, setting off the BAT.
How quickly Molly's soul disappears depends upon how much time she spends regrowing her soul by hanging out with her family.