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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 10:00:26 PM
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In all these years and after thousands of threads is there any ideas that have not been debated past the point of sanity. I ask because it seems a common feeling that the lack of activity is due to "no new material" and "rehashing old arguments." For those of all us that are still visiting this forum (and hopefully visit its resurrection to foreign lands wherever that land may be) I think it would be good to discuss any notion, topic, or WAG that did not receive its 720 degree coverage. Just for tickles and giggles.
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It has been a long time since a new book. Interest wanes in that situation. Short stories are simply too short to give a big boost to interest.
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Oh we few.... We faithful few.... :'(
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It has been a long time since a new book. Interest wanes in that situation. Short stories are simply too short to give a big boost to interest.
Yup, it happens every time... Whatever the reason, good, bad, understandable, not understandable, the length of times between novels have grown... The number of novels in the series seems to remain the same leaving a lot of us thinking we will never see how it all ends.. It is also true that especially the latest crumbs thrown the fan's way in the way of short stories have not satisfied..
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And yet people here are more than willing to jump down on a fan when they ask when the next book will come out.
Or, TWG Forbid, you express displeasure about the lack of new materiel and then you are excoriated repeatedly because you've committed the mortal sin of being anything less than serenely grateful for what has been written before and reminded that you should be on your knees thanking all you hold dear that you've gotten as much as you have...
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What is frustrating is that it seems that there are as many loose ends created as are closed. Although the reveal of Nemesis and ascension of Molly to WL, birth of Bonnie in SG, closed some loose ends.
To last few posters, I agree. It's as if they must force water torture upon those that want a new book, because Jim feels water torture with the massive requests to hurry it along. So, they are willing to do the same thing to others that causes Jim pain. Great move.
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What is frustrating is that it seems that there are as many loose ends created as are closed. Although the reveal of Nemesis and ascension of Molly to WL, birth of Bonnie in SG, closed some loose ends.
To last few posters, I agree. It's as if they must force water torture upon those that want a new book, because Jim feels water torture with the massive requests to hurry it along. So, they are willing to do the same thing to others that causes Jim pain. Great move.
Worse yet, one gets the feeling that Jim may have more or less moved on... He has started another series, yeah I know he can walk and chew gum at the same time, but..... So with personal appearances other projects and yeah the man is entitled to having a personal life, I get that.... The time stretches out into years between books... Is it harder to come up with new stuff for a character he has been writing for 20 years perhaps, but then please end it skip to the BAT after Peace Talks..... Well, maybe do Mirror Mirror as well or many fans will burst a blood vessel if it is never written...
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I don't really get the feeling that he has moved on. I'm guessing Peace Talks just had a lot going on and a lot of characters involved, which is making it difficult to write.
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I would say that everybody is feeling a level of frustration with the situation. The whole spectrum with us (the demand) at one end to Mr. Butcher (the supply) at the other and all those inbetween like Iago and Priscellie are carrying some degree of irritation. Grumbling is always expected but never very productive.
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I would say that everybody is feeling a level of frustration with the situation. The whole spectrum with us (the demand) at one end to Mr. Butcher (the supply) at the other and all those inbetween like Iago and Priscellie are carrying some degree of irritation. Grumbling is always expected but never very productive.
But sometimes it is satisfying ::) We all know it is out of our hands in any case, it will be done when it is done..
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When is PT coming out? Is there a release date set yet?
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When is PT coming out? Is there a release date set yet?
Not yet as far as I know..
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Estimate 11/2018.
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To get back to the OP, we might think of some relatively new questions, but such issues will probably not have much meat on the bone. In other words, they will probably be issues or ideas which have very little written in the books to go on.
For example, I've thought about Harry at the beginning of Skin Game, where he states that he has been thinking about his life, but what I mostly got out of that soliloquy was that Harry wondered who he could trust. I imagine that was partly due to Nemesis; Harry can't risk openly discussing it with any of his friends, and partly due to neither Mab nor Molly answering his calls, but we later learn that Harry also felt he wasn't being visited very often by his friends.
However, I would really like to know if Harry thought about anything else besides that. I mean he had an entire year on the island. He couldn't have spent the entire time learning how the island functioned and doing Parkour. To get more specific, at the end of Cold Days Mab told Harry that the athame Lea received from Bianca was tainted and the infection spread from Lea to Meave. In Ghost Story Lea told Harry's shade the reason she went gonzo on the Red Court was she owed them payback for the treacherous gift (meaning the athame) Bianca gave her. Has Harry thought about this at all? He knows or should remember that there were two powerful wizards (necromancers specifically) who were pretending to be Bianca's flunkies, dutifully retrieving and presenting Bianca's gifts. Cowl and Kumori didn't contest this observation when Harry told them he recognized them from Bianca's party. Cowl even played some one-upmanship on Harry by telling him that many things of consequence happened at that party that Harry wasn't aware of.
So we know Harry couldn't do any investigating while he was stuck on Demonreach, so there wasn't anything he could do concretely, but I hope in a future book this comes up, and hopefully it doesn't hit Harry out of the blue. He's smart enough to have put the pieces together. He should even be wondering how much his knowledge is worth. I mean Lea would certainly be interested that other people besides Bianca were involved in giving her the tainted athame, and Harry knows that at least one of them (Cowl) is still alive. Perhaps Mab would like some payback as well against a wizard or wizards who were instrumental in Maeves nemfection. Without their specific identities Harry might not have enough information to make a deal, but he's an investigator, it's kind-of what he does. So Harry should have thought about this topic and perhaps others while he was stuck on Demonreach Island.
So we can talk about this and other things Harry might have mulled over, but I'm not sure there will be much textural evidence to backup any ideas we might come up with.
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If anything, Harry should have a roll call of who and what Demonreach is holding. Or, have a big old list of questions that need answers.
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Estimate 11/2018.
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Wasn't that the estimate for this year? ???
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To get back to the OP, we might think of some relatively new questions, but such issues will probably not have much meat on the bone. In other words, they will probably be issues or ideas which have very little written in the books to go on.
For example, I've thought about Harry at the beginning of Skin Game, where he states that he has been thinking about his life, but what I mostly got out of that soliloquy was that Harry wondered who he could trust. I imagine that was partly due to Nemesis; Harry can't risk openly discussing it with any of his friends, and partly due to neither Mab nor Molly answering his calls, but we later learn that Harry also felt he wasn't being visited very often by his friends.
However, I would really like to know if Harry thought about anything else besides that. I mean he had an entire year on the island. He couldn't have spent the entire time learning how the island functioned and doing Parkour. To get more specific, at the end of Cold Days Mab told Harry that the athame Lea received from Bianca was tainted and the infection spread from Lea to Meave. In Ghost Story Lea told Harry's shade the reason she went gonzo on the Red Court was she owed them payback for the treacherous gift (meaning the athame) Bianca gave her. Has Harry thought about this at all? He knows or should remember that there were two powerful wizards (necromancers specifically) who were pretending to be Bianca's flunkies, dutifully retrieving and presenting Bianca's gifts. Cowl and Kumori didn't contest this observation when Harry told them he recognized them from Bianca's party. Cowl even played some one-upmanship on Harry by telling him that many things of consequence happened at that party that Harry wasn't aware of.
So we know Harry couldn't do any investigating while he was stuck on Demonreach, so there wasn't anything he could do concretely, but I hope in a future book this comes up, and hopefully it doesn't hit Harry out of the blue. He's smart enough to have put the pieces together. He should even be wondering how much his knowledge is worth. I mean Lea would certainly be interested that other people besides Bianca were involved in giving her the tainted athame, and Harry knows that at least one of them (Cowl) is still alive. Perhaps Mab would like some payback as well against a wizard or wizards who were instrumental in Maeves nemfection. Without their specific identities Harry might not have enough information to make a deal, but he's an investigator, it's kind-of what he does. So Harry should have thought about this topic and perhaps others while he was stuck on Demonreach Island.
So we can talk about this and other things Harry might have mulled over, but I'm not sure there will be much textural evidence to backup any ideas we might come up with.
I don't doubt that he has thought about it, but he really doesn't have anyone to bounce these thoughts off of at this time now that Butters has Bob. Bonny might know stuff but has zero experience in the world. Murphy can help with her deductive cop reasoning but a lot of this is above her pay grade.
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There is a video that puts peace talks being out 3-4 months after June or July 2018 when something else comes out, the anthology I think. So, I'd expect it between late September to November 2018.
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If anything, Harry should have a roll call of who and what Demonreach is holding.
It might not be a good idea to even know details on what some of those things are. At least some of them probably operate on the same basis of mortal knowledge being beneficial to them as the Old Ones and the Venators' targets in the Oblivion war.
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It might not be a good idea to even know details on what some of those things are. At least some of them probably operate on the same basis of mortal knowledge being beneficial to them as the Old Ones and the Venators' targets in the Oblivion war.
I disagree with this, he may not need to know details but he needs to have an idea of who and what. I don't think the usual "mortal knowledge" thing works in the case of the Warden of the Island, Harry remains mortal but that particular mantle puts him in a separate box in my opinion.
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He is responsible for some special levels of nasties. Heck, may even be a few minor gods down there.
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He is responsible for some special levels of nasties. Heck, may even be a few minor gods down there.
Minor lol?
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It might not be a good idea to even know details on what some of those things are. At least some of them probably operate on the same basis of mortal knowledge being beneficial to them as the Old Ones and the Venators' targets in the Oblivion war.
Probably most of them. The skinwalkers already do and they are the weaker ones.
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Alfred is the prison; among other things, so I imagine he already has a list of all the inmates and what they can do. He might even know that some of them shouldn't be called by their Name or even say it out loud. Harry should start by asking Alfred if he has this knowledge, and if so, if there is way for Harry to access it.
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Alfred is the prison; among other things, so I imagine he already has a list of all the inmates and what they can do. He might even know that some of them shouldn't be called by their Name or even say it out loud. Harry should start by asking Alfred if he has this knowledge, and if so, if there is way for Harry to access it.
He most likely has.
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In Skin Game Harry talks about spending some time figuring out what the island and prison can do. He mentions that he could now shut down a threat like the one presented to the island/prison in Cold Days. I would love to have some more info on what he found out. Did he get more history of the island, what additional defenses does the island have, are there any perks to being the Warden, are there any other side effects to the sanctum invocation, and as other have mentioned, does he have access to a list of prisoners? Unfortunately, we probably will not find out more about Demonreach for several books since Harry has moved back to Chicago. I wouldn't be surprised if Demonreach does not appear again in a significant way until the BAT.
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Alfred is the prison; among other things, so I imagine he already has a list of all the inmates and what they can do. He might even know that some of them shouldn't be called by their Name or even say it out loud. Harry should start by asking Alfred if he has this knowledge, and if so, if there is way for Harry to access it.
If that were the case, then with the intellectus, when Harry asked the Brit, "who are you?" Wouldn't that information have become available to him?
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If that were the case, then with the intellectus, when Harry asked the Brit, "who are you?" Wouldn't that information have become available to him?
Hmmm, unless the information is either need-to-know or Harry has to go through a different process to obtain it. Its possible that information is locked so that intellectus cannot retrieve it. It may be a safety precaution so that the Warden does not know he has person X locked up until person X is relevant to something. It could also be set-up so that any one with intellectus is blocked from getting that information in order to prevent that information from getting out.
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If Harry wanted to know who the Brit was; he only needed to ask. Harry was just killing time during a break.
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You know, I had a theory and I don't know if I published it or not.
What if the books are really each different versions of Harry? What if each book is kind of a Mirror Mirror book and we just didn't know it. Subtle differences between are explained that way (Bianca's Assistant's Name and the like).
The universes are similar enough that almost everything is the same, but not quite everything.
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You know, I had a theory and I don't know if I published it or not.
What if the books are really each different versions of Harry? What if each book is kind of a Mirror Mirror book and we just didn't know it. Subtle differences between are explained that way (Bianca's Assistant's Name and the like).
The universes are similar enough that almost everything is the same, but not quite everything.
Your not wrong i'd say. I think at various points in between books(or during) the timeline shifts slightly, showing us different versions of Harry. The funny thing is, I think each version subtly matches up to one of those many similar characters... Odin, GK, even Nic in his own way. In the end these different 'versions' should show, or at least in MM.
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That would be very confusing.
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That would be very confusing.
Well, some of the "inconsistencies" are very confusing.
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Well, some of the "inconsistencies" are very confusing.
I invoke Raidem for "Time Travel."
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I surrender!
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I surrender!
It's simple really, watch Harry's magic and how he uses it, what he favors best and each time this changes it represents a significant change in the timeline. Which... generally match up to one of the mantled characters that have 'versions', GK, Odin, ect and changed after every third book, which is when the possibilities start to spin off in at least two directions each time. which if i'm right about it happening 5 times, means last one is book 17 MM... ::) Technically Harry 'Prime', the alternate identity and of course MM Harry's version, which twines together. the alternate spin off version is a result of time travel, multiple versions ending up in one timeline. Oh... and one where he died, always one were he failed too..
When it starts, SF, Harry is channeling lightningbolts from storms and favoring flash wind spells, in Book 2 he uses faith in magic to throw his pentacle 'like a lightning struck oak tree' at the Loup. in these books he was channeling Odin/Thor variations, In SK he changes subtly and of course, if GP had ended different his magic would have been different there but also if he'd excepted the WK mantle then.. he'd be dead, and so would that reality from Mab Nfected and Titania distraught. That's where Hwwb4's memeory of Harry being strung up actually came from, a now dead universe. second arc culminates in the Hand burning and confronting Raith(who I think in MM came out for the better vs Lara/overall) and generally focuses around if Harry picked up the coin or not.
And so forth, I don't have them all mapped out entirely, but one good clue is in Odin and Kringles descriptions, Odin is lean like a young 'runner', Harry trains running in early books to escape baddies, Kringle has muscles and Harry as the WK has been doing some serious buffing up, ect. The flying carpet in GS in Molly's mind and the one the GK rides later, the GK is the version who excelled at Mind magic mostly I think.
First Harry travels backwards in time hopping closer to his own timeline by altering events indirectly so they have the same outcome as in his(which is the one where he already went back and did all this of course) and in doing so saves himself 5 other times, making 5 universes where he ultimately succeeds... 5 times, at the same time ::)
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I invoke Raidem for "Time Travel."
Time travel? It is time to split of to another mirror world without it.
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I am sick of both time travel and Mirrormirror speculation... :P At this rate the book is at least six years off...
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I am sick of both time travel and Mirrormirror speculation... :P At this rate the book is at least six years off...
LOL ... could be ... could be.
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What if the books are really each different versions of Harry? What if each book is kind of a Mirror Mirror book and we just didn't know it. Subtle differences between are explained that way (Bianca's Assistant's Name and the like).
I had some thoughts, posts etc on that in my less lucid days. I think it was combined with lots of IN and OUT posts. First off the IN and OUT refers to sets of realities either mostly IN (safe from Outsiders) or mostly compromised OUT; or IN being set of realities that are active, OUT being those inactive at the moment. As to time travel, I assumed that Team OUTsiders took a time travel gambit to sabotage the timeline, we are basically seeing effects from their attempt. Team Insiders (at least Harry's part) have yet to counter the sabotage but will. It's this gambit/counter that is playing in the background of the story that we aren't really clued in on.
Anyway, One things I had discussed was this WOJ- that I'm vaguely recalling/paraphrasing namely that timelines and parallel realities behave like frequencies, or some such. So, an IN/OUT theory with frequencies could be interpreted in such a way that there are at events in one reality popping into another. So, in some instance the wave pattern of our and another realities sync and some facts of this other reality replace/or at least create errors within ours. I also hypothesized that people have a connection with these other selves along the parallel realities and that their behavior in a particular reality could be affected in a synced way by circumstances/behaviors/ect of their other selves.
In one example I provided was an InMab and OutMab, where Mab has to fight against a nemfected part of her mantle or Mab that is from another Reality.
The other thought was something like you suggest. It was a statement made by another though in describing some of what I was saying.
In one of the books, MacAnally's bar gets a different sign than any of the other books. I wondered if there was a particular time travel/alternate reality reason for it. I also liked or hoped that maybe his bar was like a central hub of many different parallel realities. Let's say there is a Bar right next to his in the NN and it's like the bar all Time Travel/Parallel Reality Travelers go to. I made a comprehensive list of all the occurrences of the the sign, I hope it made it into Reference Collection.
Here is the link to discrepancy list.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32830.0.html
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Here's another one ...
What happened to the other puppies who were not returned to Brother Wang? Mouse's siblings.
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Here's another one ...
What happened to the other puppies who were not returned to Brother Wang? Mouse's siblings.
Jim is going to use them later, they are probably bad news for Harry.
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Here's another one ...
What happened to the other puppies who were not returned to Brother Wang? Mouse's siblings.
Jim is going to use them later, they are probably bad news for Harry.
They, or she?
I read the WoJ awhile back, but I'm wondering when they/she will show up.
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I believe it was a 'they', in the sense that someone has more than one.
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I believe it was a 'they', in the sense that someone has more than one.
I thought it was singular, they have his brother? Made a really really old wag on that, that cowl or somebody ended up with him..
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No. There is a whole bunch of fallen foo dogs around somewhere. Guess who has to do something about that.
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Yeah, I remember something like Mouse's evil brother, like KITT and KARR. Man, I just dated myself.
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Don't know about KITT and KARR, but I believe it'll be a she-foo-dog, not another male.
Mouse has to have picked up on some of Harry's foibles. Not wanting to harm a female dog may be one.
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It's a Knight Rider reference. A she Foo Dog? I am feeeling a Harry and Elaine comparison coming.
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It's a Knight Rider reference. A she Foo Dog? I am feeeling a Harry and Elaine comparison coming.
Well, there was a burning building...
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And it wasn't Mouse's fault.
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Well, not entirely his fault.
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Now come on ... neither Mouse nor his littermates lit one match. It was purely the flying monkeys.
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Didn't puppy Mouse do some barking and growling?
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There wasn't even a glow.
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Didn't puppy Mouse do some barking and growling?
Puppy mouse seemed to react to the supernatural, but never glowed to my knowledge or displayed any powers.
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He did chew the heck out of that Blampire's ear.
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Quick question. Why was Lafortier chosen to die as opposed to other members of Senior Council?
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He did chew the heck out of that Blampire's ear.
That's what puppies do.... ::)
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Quick question. Why was Lafortier chosen to die as opposed to other members of Senior Council?
If memory serves, Harry had speculated that Lafortier had discovered Peabody's existence as a spy, and that his death was something of a reaction to that. If Harry was wrong, it could have been because he represented such a large minority and made for a better leverage to get Cristos in position.
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If memory serves, Harry had speculated that Lafortier had discovered Peabody's existence as a spy, and that his death was something of a reaction to that. If Harry was wrong, it could have been because he represented such a large minority and made for a better leverage to get Cristos in position.
I actually would go with situation 2. Lafortier was killed during the night. I can't see him finding out about the existence of a spy (especially one with such close association to the Senior Council) and waiting to tell someone about it and going to bed instead. My bet is that it was a combination of him being a "sort target" (as opposed to Eb for instance), the fact that his replacement was from the minority segment, and the fact that his killing would upset the biggest number of white council wizards and cause divisions due to underrepresentation.
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So, Lafortier was the weakest link. Goodbye.
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If memory serves, Harry had speculated that Lafortier had discovered Peabody's existence as a spy, and that his death was something of a reaction to that. If Harry was wrong, it could have been because he represented such a large minority and made for a better leverage to get Cristos in position.
I think it was more of the bolded part. If Lafortier knew that Peabody was a spy, why would he not have "called the guards" immediately?
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Quick question. Why was Lafortier chosen to die as opposed to other members of Senior Council?
Because LaFortier was the Western wizard most popular with the non-Western wizards and was therefore an important diplomatic link that keeps the council whole.
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Because LaFortier was the Western wizard most popular with the non-Western wizards and was therefore an important diplomatic link that keeps the council whole.
I agree. It was a move to hopefully disrupt the council by making those groups in minority to feel unrepresented. Thus destabilizing the Wouncil.
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I agree. It was a move to hopefully disrupt the council by making those groups in minority to feel unrepresented. Thus destabilizing the Wouncil.
While potentially getting a mole/plant on the inside of the Senior council.
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While potentially getting a mole/plant on the inside of the Senior council.
I've thought of this and just don't see Christos as a mole. It just doesn't sit right. Peabody was the mole, from a Doyalist point of view, that would be going down a road we've already been.
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I've thought of this and just don't see Christos as a mole. It just doesn't sit right. Peabody was the mole, from a Doyalist point of view, that would be going down a road we've already been.
Christos seems more like a useful idiot. Maybe a useful infected idiot. Probably does not know about it if he is. He just takes harmful decisions.
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I've always entertained the thought that Lafortier figured out the ink—not that that was the vector of transmission for Peabody's influence, but that there was influence, and had begun narrowing down the suspect pool. He managed to fight off most of the control once he recognized it, but didn't realize how subtle it was, and his natural paranoia and distrust of warlocks (such as Harry Dresden) was amplified. He had it down to a super short list, but didn't bring anyone else on, because he couldn't be sure who he could trust. He was too close, so Peabody killed him. He didn't know precisely that it was Peabody, but he was down to, say, the last four or five suspects, and it would've been a matter of days.
That's how it played out in my head anyway.
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Christos seems more like a useful idiot. Maybe a useful infected idiot. Probably does not know about it if he is. He just takes harmful decisions.
That really sums up my opinion of Cristos nicely. Thank you.
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I've always entertained the thought that Lafortier figured out the ink—not that that was the vector of transmission for Peabody's influence, but that there was influence, and had begun narrowing down the suspect pool. He managed to fight off most of the control once he recognized it, but didn't realize how subtle it was, and his natural paranoia and distrust of warlocks (such as Harry Dresden) was amplified. He had it down to a super short list, but didn't bring anyone else on, because he couldn't be sure who he could trust. He was too close, so Peabody killed him. He didn't know precisely that it was Peabody, but he was down to, say, the last four or five suspects, and it would've been a matter of days.
That's how it played out in my head anyway.
That is some detailed thought and more credit than I would have given LaFortier. But, he was SC.
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Christos seems more like a useful idiot. Maybe a useful infected idiot. Probably does not know about it if he is. He just takes harmful decisions.
This has been my assessment as well, except for the infected part (I assume you mean Nemfected). I'm still of the opinion that Mankind cannot be Nemfected.
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I've always entertained the thought that Lafortier figured out the ink—not that that was the vector of transmission for Peabody's influence, but that there was influence, and had begun narrowing down the suspect pool. He managed to fight off most of the control once he recognized it, but didn't realize how subtle it was, and his natural paranoia and distrust of warlocks (such as Harry Dresden) was amplified. He had it down to a super short list, but didn't bring anyone else on, because he couldn't be sure who he could trust. He was too close, so Peabody killed him. He didn't know precisely that it was Peabody, but he was down to, say, the last four or five suspects, and it would've been a matter of days.
That's how it played out in my head anyway.
I could add that I'd believe that LaFortier probably had it stuck in his head that it WAS Harry, but evidence shows that Harry could NOT have been the one, and that is what caused Lafortier to hesitate. He just couldn't reconcile it in his head.
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I could add that I'd believe that LaFortier probably had it stuck in his head that it WAS Harry, but evidence shows that Harry could NOT have been the one, and that is what caused Lafortier to hesitate. He just couldn't reconcile it in his head.
LaFortier irrationally believing Harry is the mole causing him to delay identification of the mole which leads to his death due to the mole's machinations only to wind up having his case solved by Harry seems fitting.
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LaFortier irrationally believing Harry is the mole causing him to delay identification of the mole which leads to his death due to the mole's machinations only to wind up having his case solved by Harry seems fitting.
ROFL ...
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LaFortier irrationally believing Harry is the mole causing him to delay identification of the mole which leads to his death due to the mole's machinations only to wind up having his case solved by Harry seems fitting.
And, that summary basically proves that LaFortier was an obnoxious idiot who was replaced with a more obnoxious and bigger idiot.
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And, that summary basically proves that LaFortier was an obnoxious idiot who was replaced with a more obnoxious and bigger idiot.
God, I hope so.
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It will take alot for me to see Cristos as a big bad like Cowl.
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Oh, I don't think Christos is a Big Bad, but he may be a "member" of the Circle.
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On a par with Madeline, he sits at the kiddie table.
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Probably has an overinflated sense of his importance while Cowl is behind him rolling his eyes at the things that come out of Cristo's mouth.
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Cowldoesn't make eye rolls; he makes heads roll (off).
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On a par with Madeline, he sits at the kiddie table.
This would be my assessment as well.
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What other really-flunkies-but-want-to-be-big-bosses do we have running around?
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What is frustrating is that it seems that there are as many loose ends created as are closed. Although the reveal of Nemesis and ascension of Molly to WL, birth of Bonnie in SG, closed some loose ends.
Why would you expect more loose ends to be closed than created at, what, somewhere between 60% and 70% of the way into the whole series ?
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I think there are a few loose ends that occurrred before BK1 that need focus. Those are big and old and will hurt more.