I don’t know when or if it will happen, but, like you, I think it will be more interesting if it doesn’t happen in a parallel universe. As winter knight, I’d think Dresden should be out of the Council’s jurisdiction so he should have more latitude to act without consequence from them.Yeah, but the Council disagrees with you. And for that matter, so does Mab.
Probably much later. Just before or in the apocalyptic triology. In Peace talks Harry is still not powerful and experienced enough for this and the next two books are probably not that much about the council.
Yeah, but the Council disagrees with you. And for that matter, so does Mab.They do? I can’t remember him having any interaction with the council since Changes. Besides chatting with Rashid, have I forgotten something?
Given what peace talks is you can guarantee that at least some of the senior council will feature. It may not be about them but thats never stopped Harry from telling certain members where to shove themselves.But that is nothing special, that is just Harry being Harry. Peace talks will show that Harry is still a member with all the rights and obligations that brings.
They do? I can’t remember him having any interaction with the council since Changes. Besides chatting with Rashid, have I forgotten something?Sidhe thinking. Since when can you get rid of an obligation or debt just by taking up another one? Medieval thinking. If you have fiefs in two kingdoms you have to serve two kings and figuring out how to do so is your problem.
Sidhe thinking. Since when can you get rid of an obligation or debt just by taking up another one? Medieval thinking. If you have fiefs in two kingdoms you have to serve two kings and figuring out how to do so is your problem.That all makes sense and seems logical, but I just don’t see the white council arresting and executing Molly, for example, if they meet up in Peace Talks. I’d think they’d be equally stand-offish regarding arresting and executing Dresden for something he does as winter knight while conducting business for Mab. I think, for the moment, he and Molly are a bit out of their grasp. Moreso for Molly. They just need to watch out if the day comes and they are no longer part of the winter court because, then, I think, the white council would come to make them pay the bill.
The idea that you can have only one nationality, master, etc. is relatively modern and even now far from universally accepted. My wife has two passports, no problem at all.
Mab takes these obligations very seriously. Lea mentoring Molly and helping her protecting Chicago as the ragged lady showed that as well.
There may be conflicts but Mab will not on purpose prevent Harry from his obligations. Worst case that would mean Mab would have to fulfill them in some way.
Everything points to the council having a similar way of thinking. Harry is not the first wizard making deals outside the council and they just claim all wizards regardless of their other obligations.
Besides, they are paying his salary.
But that is nothing special, that is just Harry being Harry. Peace talks will show that Harry is still a member with all the rights and obligations that brings.
Molly is not human anymore, according to the councils definition of human. That will place her outside the councils jurisdiction.
That all makes sense and seems logical, but I just don’t see the white council arresting and executing Molly, for example, if they meet up in Peace Talks. I’d think they’d be equally stand-offish regarding arresting and executing Dresden for something he does as winter knight while conducting business for Mab. I think, for the moment, he and Molly are a bit out of their grasp. Moreso for Molly. They just need to watch out if the day comes and they are no longer part of the winter court because, then, I think, the white council would come to make them pay the bill.The salary is important. When you get a salary from someone you acquire obligations with it. Harry is a warden as long as they pay his salary and he accepts it.
I doubt even Harry's enemies on the Council would want to hash out their problems with him during PT. The Council would hate showing disunity or weakness in front of the assembled who's-who of the Accords powers even more than they hate Harry. With all the other powers around, it's a better opportunity for trying to manipulate Harry into a duel with someone who overpowers him. But taking him out in-house is better done later and not in front of so many witnesses.
The salary is important. When you get a salary from someone you acquire obligations with it. Harry is a warden as long as they pay his salary and he accepts it.Was that from his talk with Rashid? It seems familiar. I’d forgotten about that; good point. Still, I don’t think they will interfere with him while he’s doing Mab’s business. Later, when he’s either not needed or out from the job, I guess they will want him to pay the whatever bill he’s accrued.
Harry didn't murder a mortal with magic, Laws don't care. There is no accessory issues as far as the White Council is concerned.
Harry didn't murder a mortal with magic, Laws don't care. There is no accessory issues as far as the White Council is concerned.That’s one opinion. Most human legal systems would find him culpable. It could go either way, I think. I guess it comes down to if the Merlin likes him or not for if he presses it.
That’s one opinion. Most human legal systems would find him culpable. It could go either way, I think. I guess it comes down to if the Merlin likes him or not for if he presses it.The Laws are not most human legal systems. They are explicitly about using* magic. Just being there when magic is happening is not an issue. Murdering someone is not an issue.
Speaking of more of Dresden’s bill, how is it he never was charged for all the young people he burned to death at Bianca’s par-tay? I can’t remember if that was ever explained in the books. I remember him fearing he’d pay for it, but I don’t remember anything ever happening. I remember a question mark on if they were already dead, but it seems unlikely all were. Unless I’m forgetting something, the books seem to have dropped it.
Interesting thought on this, where do all the members of the fellowship who died of old age after Harry took out the red court sit. The council obviously isn't concerned but JB's been clear in some WoJ's that what the council's laws are and what the universe level laws are on black magic don't allways line up.And how about the Grey Council members who were mortal wizards who killed the gunmen and so with magic at that fight?
And how about the Grey Council members who were mortal wizards who killed the gunmen and so with magic at that fight?The only one we know of is Eb who has a specific exemption from the Laws.
The salary is important. When you get a salary from someone you acquire obligations with it. Harry is a warden as long as they pay his salary and he accepts it.Part 2 response because F this heatwave in Europe! I can’t sleep!
As for the deaths at Biancas, I imagine that it's chalked up to them not knowing who, if anyone, actually was killed by the fire vs already dead. Though given the grudge some folks held against him, you'd think they'd try a bit harder to look into it.
Part 2 response because F this heatwave in Europe! I can’t sleep!That is the Sidhe way of looking at things. And as always that is both true and uncomfortable and not how humans would look at the same facts.
I was thinking about your reply in concert with Rashid’s conversation with Dresden. Upon reading that bit in the book, I had just assumed Rashid was being kind. But, now, with what you said about obligation due to the monies, I find I’m rethinking the just being kind assessment. Was Rashid purposely bringing Dresden into obligation?
If so, I wonder what his various motives were? Some could be as a measure of protection to keep Dresden from becoming “other” to the council. Others could be less altruistic. Now you say this, though, it seems very calculated to re-obligate Dresden to me.
@Ananda: The Laws of magic are about preventing black magic. If in the councils view it won't cause you to become stained with black magic they 100% don't care, (at leat as an organisation, individual members will have distinct views but the council as a whole will have no formal policy).Right, I read that stuff in the books, too, but I was thinking more political expediency and manipulation of situation to get rid of people. Certainly, they’ve used politics and trickery to attempt certain ends within their laws before. There’s pure logic and then there’s cunning and manipulating a framework for a desired end.
A wizard could go around using magic to rough people up and extract protection money and whilst a good piece of the White Council wouldn't approve as individual's, the Council as a whole wouldn't do a thing to stop them, it isn't against the Laws of magic and thus isn't there problem unless it threatens to splash back on them in some way, (like say getting the council put on an arrest on sight watchlist), that threatens them with retribution from someone else. Even then it would be about protecting the Council's continued existence, not about the actions that created said threat.
And heatwave yes. I could not sleep the night before but this night I was so tired that I just passed out.It’s literally not cool how hot it’s been. 36 here midweek and swedish buildings are made for holding heat in like an oven. By night, it’s 30+ inside. At least I’m not in Portugal or Spain where I think I read it will be 46+ this week. My husband almost bought an ac for us in may, but decided against. Now, you can’t buy one in the whole country.
It’s literally not cool how hot it’s been. 36 here midweek and swedish buildings are made for holding heat in like an oven. By night, it’s 30+ inside. At least I’m not in Portugal or Spain where I think I read it will be 46+ this week. My husband almost bought an ac for us in may, but decided against. Now, you can’t buy one in the whole country.Your heatwave is my normal weather. :'( Of course AC is the rule here in the southern US, not the exception. Stay cool. If the humidity is low enough you might try a swamp cooler. Oh yeah and use Mack's recipe for lemonade with lemonade ice.
Your heatwave is my normal weather. :'( Of course AC is the rule here in the southern US, not the exception. Stay cool. If the humidity is low enough you might try a swamp cooler. Oh yeah and use Mack's recipe for lemonade with lemonade ice.Those climates are not meant for human habitation and were only colonized after the invention of ac, we however live since time immemorial in a temperate climate and we did not need those ugly blobs on the top of our houses, we don’t have flat tops on our houses either traditionally.
Your heatwave is my normal weather. :'( Of course AC is the rule here in the southern US, not the exception. Stay cool. If the humidity is low enough you might try a swamp cooler. Oh yeah and use Mack's recipe for lemonade with lemonade ice.
Those climates are not meant for human habitation and were only colonized after the invention of ac, we however live since time immemorial in a temperate climate and we did not need those ugly blobs on the top of our houses, we don’t have flat tops on our houses either traditionally.
But all those ac’s caused global warming and so the problem spread to holland and apparently even Scandinavia. We used to have only a few hot days a year now it is weeks.
Yeah but i doubt you get lows of -5 most years either in the winter, and snow is that weird stuff that happens to other people.A neighbor attached one on the front of his house clearly visibly from the street and he had to remove it after people complained. It was an eyesore.
Mines a portable stick a pipe out the window job, a bit bulky for my small room, (okay a lot bulky), but no flat roof or big thing on top of the house required.
As for the deaths at Biancas, I imagine that it's chalked up to them not knowing who, if anyone, actually was killed by the fire vs already dead. Though given the grudge some folks held against him, you'd think they'd try a bit harder to look into it.
Bianca probably had the bodies disposed of before the council were aware of what had happened there. Later books show the Wardens aren't actually as all-knowing and all-powerful as early Harry's fears make them out to be.If he stood there for murder with magic they had to kill him but the vampires wanted him alive.
Bianca probably had the bodies disposed of before the council were aware of what had happened there. Later books show the Wardens aren't actually as all-knowing and all-powerful as early Harry's fears make them out to be.
We know from death masks that she didn't, Butters did the autopsy's. Harry got off because no one, not even butters could determine how most of the actual human remains died.
Yeah but i doubt you get lows of -5 most years either in the winter, and snow is that weird stuff that happens to other people.
We know from death masks that she didn't, Butters did the autopsy's. Harry got off because no one, not even butters could determine how most of the actual human remains died.I thought these acts were supposed to leave some sort of stain on the perpetrator? Couldn’t they just take a look at Dresden for such “stains”? There were quite a few dead, so it wouldn’t have been too subtle. Molly used magic to try to help a baby and a couple of junkies and Dresden saw the darkness in her in his gaze thingie. Morgan was cray-cray in Storm Front, lusted for blood in later books, but where was he after this? Maybe on holiday in Ibiza?
I thought these acts were supposed to leave some sort of stain on the perpetrator? Couldn’t they just take a look at Dresden for such “stains”? There were quite a few dead, so it wouldn’t have been too subtle. Molly used magic to try to help a baby and a couple of junkies and Dresden saw the darkness in her in his gaze thingie. Morgan was cray-cray in Storm Front, lusted for blood in later books, but where was he after this? Maybe on holiday in Ibiza?No you can’t because those stains could have many causes not all caused by breaking the laws. They are also very subjective and you don’t want to execute someone just because is not Lilly white enough just because of a soul gaze, you need extra evidence especially if someone is already a group member.
Punishment aside, wasn’t killing all those people supposed to affect Dresden in some major way? The current books talk about Eb’s staff protecting him which leads to the conclusion that there’s something to protect against. So, what, if anything, happened to Dresden?
I was thinking of after the coroner stage. Although I suppose Bianca personally might have been dead before Butters was done with them.
The Red Court hierarchy would have had an incentive to claim the bodies and dispose of them before anyone could double-check Butters' work and notice that hey, he's got a point after all.
No you can’t because those stains could have many causes not all caused by breaking the laws. They are also very subjective and you don’t want to execute someone just because is not Lilly white enough just because of a soul gaze, you need extra evidence especially if someone is already a group member.While discussing this and some other stuff recently, it struck me that it’s interesting how matter of factly many responses are when discussing things that aren’t actually in the books. I don’t necessarily mean this answer, but in general.
That is why they wanted to invalidate his membership. You can do all kind of things with people who do not belong.
And Harry already had some stains from killing Justin. Just being stained is not breaking laws. The grey wardens are probably all a bit stained if you look at it from the perspective of someone whe kept his soul particularly clean.
Punishment aside, wasn’t killing all those people supposed to affect Dresden in some major way? The current books talk about Eb’s staff protecting him which leads to the conclusion that there’s something to protect against. So, what, if anything, happened to Dresden?Eh, now any significant lack of manifestation I chalk up to the dark magic cleansing foo dog.
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No you can’t because those stains could have many causes not all caused by breaking the laws. They are also very subjective and you don’t want to execute someone just because is not Lilly white enough just because of a soul gaze, you need extra evidence especially if someone is already a group member.
That is why they wanted to invalidate his membership. You can do all kind of things with people who do not belong.
And Harry already had some stains from killing Justin. Just being stained is not breaking laws. The grey wardens are probably all a bit stained if you look at it from the perspective of someone whe kept his soul particularly clean.
Harry was not soul gazed by a majority of wizards during his trial because that would have brought a level of knowledge and understanding on both sides that was clearly not there in Summer Knight.
A soul gaze stays with you so you don’t want to look at warlocks more than necessary, it can give you some ugly memories that never disappear.
Yes to the second part, but the reason Harry wasn't soul gazed by the whole Council at his trial is the same reason Molly wasn't... Protocol, the arresting warden does the soul gazing of the perp and testifies as to what he/she observed in that soul gaze. Which, when you think about it opens another can of worms, interpretation is based on the mind and experience of the one doing the soul gazing.IIRC Carlos had to give a second opinion re:Molly, and I suppose that is supposed to catch any too-egregious interpretation effects. I imagine Harry, too, was soulgazed by two Wardens.
IIRC Carlos had to give a second opinion re:Molly, and I suppose that is supposed to catch any too-egregious interpretation effects. I imagine Harry, too, was soulgazed by two Wardens.Why? It is ugly to soulgaze warlocks. You are going to see all kinds of uglyness you will never forget. Mostly you just don't do it and kill them when they try to run away. But sometimes they have a trial for political reasons, when the warlock knows somebody or the merlin needs it to prove a point. But even then one soul gaze is more than enough. Why should several wizards look in the same sewer? One is more than enough thank you.
Why should several wizards look in the same sewer? One is more than enough thank you.An obvious reason is that someone can lie, be biased, or just be mistaken as a single source of judge and jury.
Eh, now any significant lack of manifestation I chalk up to the dark magic cleansing foo dog.
An obvious reason is that someone can lie, be biased, or just be mistaken as a single source of judge and jury.You mean the accused has rights?. I don’t see any evidence for that. The Merlin fully expected Harry to have killed Molly in stead of calling Edinburgh and wasting everyone’s time.
Mouse came into Harry's life around a year after he torched Bianca's place, though. If he was stained from burning a bunch of teenage vampire groupies who were unconscious but still alive, Morgan and the rest of the hardliners would have had plenty of time to notice it on him.Whose talking about any of that? I'm talking about Crazy Made Manifest. Screw the council.
Mouse came into Harry's life around a year after he torched Bianca's place, though. If he was stained from burning a bunch of teenage vampire groupies who were unconscious but still alive, Morgan and the rest of the hardliners would have had plenty of time to notice it on him.
No, he came the same year... Remember Harry sitting on his sofa in pain from his badly burned hand listening to Eb with baby Mouse sitting next to him trying to give comfort..
Bianca != MavraWatch out someone might see that as a challenge.
Watch out someone might see that as a challenge.
Throw in some time traveling and you can probably build a theory based on Bianca = Mavra
You mean the accused has rights?. I don’t see any evidence for that. The Merlin fully expected Harry to have killed Molly in stead of calling Edinburgh and wasting everyone’s time.You asked “why should” there be more than one person essentially on the jury. Whatever the case with this organisation, I answered why there should be. :)
Fair trial is not high on the list. If the accused usually does not get to say anything, has no formal defender, is blindfolded and can not understand what is going on because everything is said in a dead language you can not expect other considerations of fair trial to be high on the list.
And even Molly did not get a second soul gaze. Even when the Merlin did not trust Harry at all. The Merlin probably thought one soul gaze was already overkill. She was proven guilty, kill her and be done with it.
Watch out someone might see that as a challenge.I mean the Black Court is capable of converting other Species of Vampire into one of their own...
Throw in some time traveling and you can probably build a theory based on Bianca = Mavra
"It is not your hour"- A common expression used to say "you shouldn't die right now".It's actually a paraphrase of a Bible quote, uttered by Christ. John 2.4.
"Woman, what has this to do with me? My hour has not yet come."Evidently referring to his Crucifixion.
You asked “why should” there be more than one person essentially on the jury. Whatever the case with this organisation, I answered why there should be. :)I should have asked why would :)
It's actually a paraphrase of a Bible quote, uttered by Christ. John 2.4. Evidently referring to his Crucifixion.You know those books weren’t written in english, right? That means the translator just used an existing phrase. :P
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
You know those books weren’t written in english, right? That means the translator just used an existing phrase. :PHow do you think translation works?
You mean the accused has rights?. I don’t see any evidence for that. The Merlin fully expected Harry to have killed Molly in stead of calling Edinburgh and wasting everyone’s time.
Fair trial is not high on the list. If the accused usually does not get to say anything, has no formal defender, is blindfolded and can not understand what is going on because everything is said in a dead language you can not expect other considerations of fair trial to be high on the list.
And even Molly did not get a second soul gaze. Even when the Merlin did not trust Harry at all. The Merlin probably thought one soul gaze was already overkill. She was proven guilty, kill her and be done with it.
It's actually a paraphrase of a Bible quote, uttered by Christ. John 2.4. Evidently referring to his Crucifixion.
The Gatekeeper seems to be conveniently always around to have something enigmatic to say. He pops up in some weird places. He's hob nobs with the Mothers and has pissed off Demonreach. I smell a talking head. Version 2.
It is almost certain that Harry will go head to head with some members of the Senior Council, assuming that the Black Council is represented there.
Though, I do disagree with the general idea that the phrase refers to His crucifixion, given the context, I'm pretty sure He's talking about revealing Himself to the world.My source implied otherwise, but since I care about the Bible only as it relates to the Dresedenverse, I have no strong opinion on the matter.
He shook his head. “Places in time. This is not the time, or the place. What you are about to do will cost lives—among them your own. I wish you no harm, young wizard. But if you will not surrender, so be it.
The merlin isn't free to do as he pleases, he has to pay attention to the other council members, (usually anyway), and not all of them are as dumb as he is.Sure but that does not give rights to the accused just a possibility that someone else is a little bit less trigger happy.
How do you think translation works?With license. The turn of phrase wasn’t invented for that series of stories. How many languages do you speak? You don’t really translate things word for word.
With license. The turn of phrase wasn’t invented for that series of stories. How many languages do you speak? You don’t really translate things word for word.I'm confused. Are you talking about translating the Dresden Files, or the Bible?
I'm confused. Are you talking about translating the Dresden Files, or the Bible?I was talking about the bible, but it’s the same for the DF.
Thus he went down, and the life struggled out of him;
[and as he died he spattered me with the dark red
and violent driven rain of bitter-savored blood
to make me glad, as plants stand strong amidst the showers
of god in glory at the birthtime of the buds.
Fallen thus, he gasped away his life, and as he breathed forth quick spurts of blood, [1390] he struck me with dark drops of gory dew; while I rejoiced no less than the sown earth is gladdened in heaven's refreshing rain at the birthtime of the flower buds.
So he fell, his life throbbed away; breath and blood spurting out him of like a shower, spattering me with drops of crimson dew. I soaked it up joyfully as spring buds do the gods’ sweet rain.
And when prompted as to why he cared said "It is not your hour"- A common expression used to say "you shouldn't die right now".While it can be read that way, obviously the Gatekeeper was prepared to kill Dresden at that point. Since Dresden has made it perfectly clear that he would take it to the wall if he needed to. The Biblical quote refers to the death and resurrection. To a moment in time that when Jesus would serve his purpose on earth. I'm assuming a similar meaning for the "starborn"(I feel foolish even writing that). As in, Harry is destined to fulfill some function of which he remains ignorant, but which everybody(important or powerful) else knows. By the way does Butters have a king in his family tree somewhere?