ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: nadia.skylark on February 15, 2019, 01:27:26 AM
-
So, I was reading an old thread about what would happen if you sacrificed a denarian on the stone table, and it sparked an idea.
What if the reason Nicodemus wanted the knife from Skin Game was because it can destroy denarian coins, which by WoJ would free the Fallen inside to act?
-
It's possible but the mythology of the Knife is that the wielder cannot be defeated. I think that is the reason. A battle is brewing and Nicodemus wants every advantage he can get. Michael was able to fight Outsiders with his Sword while wizard magic wasn't effective. If a Holy Sword works, I'd imagine the Knife would as well.
-
That assumes that the knife is actually the blade of the Spear of Destiny. Which is a decent assumption, but not necessarily guaranteed.
-
I'd call it a safe assumption. Anything else would be pretty hard for me to believe or a major twist in the entire cosmology of the DF.
-
the mythology of the Knife is that the wielder cannot be defeated.
True, but I have a hard time believing that this is true in the Dresdenverse. For one thing, it destroys all tension--Harry has the Knife, ergo he will always win. For another thing, it undermines free will somewhat if the wielder will win no matter what anyone does. The Knife is clearly connected to the the White God, and he doesn't do that. What I think the knife might do is allow its wielder to carry out their choices unimpeded, ex. if Harry chooses to look for a way out of the Winter Knight mantle, Mab can't just put a geas on him to stop him, but Harry has to make that choice (and then all the choices that would lead to him finding a way and then choosing to go through with it--although he might be helped by contrived coincidence). If Harry, on the other hand, chose to get into a sword fight with Nicodemus without protective armor, the Knife might tilt things in Harry's favor but I have a hard time believing that it would stop him from getting stabbed.
-
If the possessor of the Spear of Destiny cannot be defeated, then how was Hades defeated to take it? Hades is not, historically, known to ever willingly give up his possessions.
I cannot help but wonder if the items are genuine or powerful fakes?
-
If the possessor of the Spear of Destiny cannot be defeated, then how was Hades defeated to take it? Hades is not, historically, known to ever willingly give up his possessions.
Hades explained pretty clearly what the Vault was for, mortal weapons for mortal's to wield. Hades wasn't defeated
True, but I have a hard time believing that this is true in the Dresdenverse. For one thing, it destroys all tension--Harry has the Knife, ergo he will always win.
First: Just because mythology makes the claim doesn't mean it's entirely accurate for the Dresdenverse. It may just be a very very powerful weapon that's even more powerful than the Swords used by the KoTC. Second: Just like the Swords it probably has a specific use, and therefor the wielder can't just go around doing everything they want.
-
First: Just because mythology makes the claim doesn't mean it's entirely accurate for the Dresdenverse. It may just be a very very powerful weapon that's even more powerful than the Swords used by the KoTC.
This is exactly what I'm saying.
-
Second: Just like the Swords it probably has a specific use, and therefor the wielder can't just go around doing everything they want.
If it's like most other power in the DV, being greater than the swords might also means it has a correspondingly narrower range of legitimate purposes.
-
Just because mythology makes the claim doesn't mean it's entirely accurate for the Dresdenverse. It may just be a very very powerful weapon that's even more powerful than the Swords used by the KoTC. Second: Just like the Swords it probably has a specific use, and therefor the wielder can't just go around doing everything they want.
So does anyone have suggestions for what it can do and what its purpose is?
I think it might cut through supernatural forms of binding--that would fit with TWG's stated agenda of free will above all else, it would let Harry use it to get out of being Winter Knight if he chose, and it would support my theory of Nicodemus wanting it to free the Fallen from their coins.
-
Hmm. I think the Knife was in Harry's coat pocket... which Butters put on before he ran out to fight Nicodemus. I can't really check right now to be sure—does Harry hand it off to Michael or someone else?
-
Hmm. I think the Knife was in Harry's coat pocket... which Butters put on before he ran out to fight Nicodemus. I can't really check right now to be sure—does Harry hand it off to Michael or someone else?
I'm fairly certain Harry's got it now. I think I remember a discussion at the end of Skin Game where Michael acknowledges the corruption in the Church as a reason Harry should keep the artifacts.
-
I'm fairly certain the knife was in the coat pocket thru the entire action of Skin Game. That is, once Harry pulled it out of his sleeve.
-
There is a chance Nicodemus didn't want to knife for any purpose other than to unmake it, destroy it. He could have known that the need for the Knife was coming, and that it would find it's way into the hands of mortals, and he wanted to prevent it from happening. Ironically it was his actions that resulted in mortals acquiring the Knife.
A fun theory I just thought of is that the knife is more of a Saint's weapon (a wizard who uses Faith Magic). It would be one heck of a foci tool
-
A fun theory I just thought of is that the knife is more of a Saint's weapon (a wizard who uses Faith Magic). It would be one heck of a foci tool
Just imagine using it as an athame in a ritual!
-
I'm fairly certain the knife was in the coat pocket thru the entire action of Skin Game. That is, once Harry pulled it out of his sleeve.
Yeah, I'm just curious if the knife was part of the reason Butters made it through the action, between running outside and getting the Sword. I know Harry's keeping the stuff on Demonreach now, and was mostly just wondering if it was chilling in the pocket of his borrowed coat.
-
Yeah, I'm just curious if the knife was part of the reason Butters made it through the action, between running outside and getting the Sword. I know Harry's keeping the stuff on Demonreach now, and was mostly just wondering if it was chilling in the pocket of his borrowed coat.
I doubt it, for starters Butters didn't know what is was, at the moment we don't know how it is used or if it provides any protection.
-
Without knowing how it works, we can't say for certain, but I don't think you need to know what it is or do anything to invoke it's power, you just need to have it.
That said, nothing that happened seemed to really require any supernatural protection on his part, until the Sword got into it, and chalking that up to the knife would undercut the importance of his faith that made it happen.
-
Without knowing how it works, we can't say for certain, but I don't think you need to know what it is or do anything to invoke it's power, you just need to have it.
That said, nothing that happened seemed to really require any supernatural protection on his part, until the Sword got into it, and chalking that up to the knife would undercut the importance of his faith that made it happen.
Exactly, unless you buy that it may have guided the hilt to the hand of Butters in the first place. Harry tossed it in a last ditch leap of faith towards the hand of Charity, but it bounced instead to the hand of Butters and lit up. On the other hand I agree that this might seem to undercut the power of the Sword to chose it's wielder...
-
So, I was reading an old thread about what would happen if you sacrificed a denarian on the stone table, and it sparked an idea.
What if the reason Nicodemus wanted the knife from Skin Game was because it can destroy denarian coins, which by WoJ would free the Fallen inside to act?
His coin with the Fallen within, keeps him alive. It seems counter intuitive.
-
It's hard to say. Deirdre was enough of a true believer to sacrifice her life for the cause. It's possible Nic is as well.
-
His coin with the Fallen within, keeps him alive. It seems counter intuitive.
It's hard to say. Deirdre was enough of a true believer to sacrifice her life for the cause. It's possible Nic is as well.
Given that Nicodemus is enough of a fanatic to sacrifice his daughter, I figure he's enough of a fanatic to be willing to die himself.
Alternately, he could have been planning to use the grail or shroud to prevent himself from aging and dying.
Or he could just free 29 of the Fallen and keep Anduriel. They work together well enough that Anduriel might not mind.
-
It wouldn't surprise me if the fallen were freed from the coins, maybe in the BAT. I couldn't speculate intelligently. I don't know who put them there or why. In their own way they are like the prisoners in Demonreach. Alfred says early on that the inmates of the prison are always dangerous, but least dangerous in the prison. Which pretty much describes the Fallen. Obviously Mab thinks the weapons will be needed. On the surface they appear to be modeled loosely on the One Ring if you find that helpful.
-
True, but I have a hard time believing that this is true in the Dresdenverse. For one thing, it destroys all tension--Harry has the Knife, ergo he will always win. For another thing, it undermines free will somewhat if the wielder will win no matter what anyone does.
It doesn't destroy all tension if it is limited to the wielder of the knife cannot be defeated in battle. He can still be tricked, trapped, betrayed, or murdered, just not beat in a fight. It also doesn't destroy free will - you can always choose not to engage the wielder in a battle. Yes, the wielder might kill you - but that was the wielder's choice to do so.
-
I don't think that Nicodemus would go through all that trouble, especially with sacrificing his daughter, if the grand prize was an item which had a slight improvement over the noose already around his throat.
Honestly, with this guy, I think there's only one or two things that he would give about anything for. My best guess is that the knife (if it IS the same spear which pierced Christ's side) is a conjunction, much in the same way that Halloween is - it's an item which allows the user to slay an immortal. Only instead of having to wait for a particular time, or approaching a being while IN the flow of time, it just gives them the ability to kill.
No real evidence, but it fits thematically both with who Nicodemus is, the small list of impossible things he'd sacrifice his daughter in order to accomplish, and known potential powers given the history of the item in question.
-
I don't think that Nicodemus would go through all that trouble, especially with sacrificing his daughter, if the grand prize was an item which had a slight improvement over the noose already around his throat.
Honestly, with this guy, I think there's only one or two things that he would give about anything for. My best guess is that the knife (if it IS the same spear which pierced Christ's side) is a conjunction, much in the same way that Halloween is - it's an item which allows the user to slay an immortal. Only instead of having to wait for a particular time, or approaching a being while IN the flow of time, it just gives them the ability to kill.
No real evidence, but it fits thematically both with who Nicodemus is, the small list of impossible things he'd sacrifice his daughter in order to accomplish, and known potential powers given the history of the item in question.
I agree with that. In fact, I would say either you are right and I'm wrong, or we are both right. I think Nicodemus wants to kill Lucifer. Your theory makes sense in that it gives him the power to accomplish that task. My theory could also be true - because Nicodemus needs the knife to actually win (the noose wouldn't be enough), but my theory isn't necessary.
-
I'd point out that being able to always win a fight does not mean someone would always succeed. If Harry's goal is to find something out, or protect someone, or convince someone, the knife isn't necessarily going to help him. Maybe he can fight and defeat one enemy, but if there's two more going around him entirely, that doesn't do him much good.
-
Kill Lucifer? Why would Nicodemus want to kill Lucifer, when it's clearly TWG that he's so bitterly impassioned against? Furthermore, why would Lucifer help Nicodemus in Small Favor, if Nicodemus has ever displayed any issue at all?
Not arguing against you, per se; I just love twisty theories. Straight and narrow ones generally don't have a chance of happening.
-
Just imagine using it as an athame in a ritual!
I'd bet a dollar he sticks it to the end of his staff. Odin makes it look so fashionable.
-
I'd point out that being able to always win a fight does not mean someone would always succeed. If Harry's goal is to find something out, or protect someone, or convince someone, the knife isn't necessarily going to help him. Maybe he can fight and defeat one enemy, but if there's two more going around him entirely, that doesn't do him much good.
It is about power on a huge scale, Harry may need that kind of boost in the BAT, that is what the Knife will give him. Though I doubt he has much of a clue at the moment about how to use it or if he should use it.
-
So, I was reading an old thread about what would happen if you sacrificed a denarian on the stone table, and it sparked an idea.
What if the reason Nicodemus wanted the knife from Skin Game was because it can destroy denarian coins, which by WoJ would free the Fallen inside to act?
Harry found multiple items on the table. Nic specifically wanted the grail. He killed his daughter and engineered the raid for precisely that purpose. Did he know of the other items in any specific way?
-
Harry found multiple items on the table. Nic specifically wanted the grail. He killed his daughter and engineered the raid for precisely that purpose. Did he know of the other items in any specific way?
It's implied that he actually wanted all five items, and the knife specifically; he's just pathologically incapable of being honest.
-
Yeah. Nic SAID he wanted the Grail, and presumably that was his main goal, but he almost certainly wanted the whole collection.
-
Kill Lucifer? Why would Nicodemus want to kill Lucifer, when it's clearly TWG that he's so bitterly impassioned against? Furthermore, why would Lucifer help Nicodemus in Small Favor, if Nicodemus has ever displayed any issue at all?
Not arguing against you, per se; I just love twisty theories. Straight and narrow ones generally don't have a chance of happening.
See Mab and Leah for a trusted enemy relationship similar to what Nico/Luci would have. They might work together, but Lucifer kicked Anduriel out of hell and trapped him in a coin precisely because Nicodemus was one of his strongest generals and therefore a threat to Lucifer. However, while the above is true, I agree it is too straightforward and too unrelated to the Outsider theme to be the motivation behind Nicodemus wanted the knife.
My theory is that when Harry suggested to Nicodemus in SmF that there was a traitor in the Denarians mix, while we were led to believe it was Namshiel, Nicodemus' investigation revealed that the treachery goes deeper and discovered that Lucifer is nemfected.
Here is the evidence: In Skin Game, Nicodemus sacrificed his daughter in Hades to protect her from the Enemy. It doesn't make sense that she needs protection from the TWG, because the worst that TWG would do is send her soul to hell for eternal damnation. That means Nicodemus is trying to keep her out of hell and put her in hades (the place) instead. Hades (the god), however, suggests that she isn't going to escape her crimes. Nicodemus is smart enough to know she's still going to be tortured in hades, so there must be some other reason than avoiding torture that explains why hades is preferable to hell. The difference has to be their respective rulers, Hades v. Lucifer. Why would Lucifer be bad and more specifically, why would being sent to hell to be tortured by Lucifer deliver her to the hands of the Enemy? Simple, Lucifer is Nemfected.
-
To get back to the OP. I disagree with the idea of using the blade to free one or more of the Fallen from the coins. (Assuming it can be done.) Nicodemus could get someone like Quintas Cassius to work with him, and certainly his daughter followed him, but a demon on the loose might be another story. Plus, would Anduriel need Nicodemus if it was free of the coin? I'm thinking probably not. The Fallen might be more effective with a human host like Nicodemus, but most of them wouldn't see it that way and I doubt Nic would trust letting any of them out of their coins.
-
Plus, would Anduriel need Nicodemus if it was free of the coin? I'm thinking probably not. The Fallen might be more effective with a human host like Nicodemus, but most of them wouldn't see it that way
I think Anduriel probably would, though, given the nature of his relationship to Nicodemus.
and I doubt Nic would trust letting any of them out of their coins.
Why? Nicodemus is on their side.
-
Here is the evidence: In Skin Game, Nicodemus sacrificed his daughter in Hades to protect her from the Enemy. It doesn't make sense that she needs protection from the TWG, because the worst that TWG would do is send her soul to hell for eternal damnation. That means Nicodemus is trying to keep her out of hell and put her in hades (the place) instead. Hades (the god), however, suggests that she isn't going to escape her crimes. Nicodemus is smart enough to know she's still going to be tortured in hades, so there must be some other reason than avoiding torture that explains why hades is preferable to hell. The difference has to be their respective rulers, Hades v. Lucifer. Why would Lucifer be bad and more specifically, why would being sent to hell to be tortured by Lucifer deliver her to the hands of the Enemy? Simple, Lucifer is Nemfected.
Is not eternal damnation bad enough to want to avoid it? And perhaps Nic was just so focused on avoiding judgement from TWG that he was blinded by the other possible consequences. After all, he got himself played by Mab and Marcone, so he's hardly omniscient.
-
Is not eternal damnation bad enough to want to avoid it?
Except she didn't avoid it.
And perhaps Nic was just so focused on avoiding judgement from TWG that he was blinded by the other possible consequences.
I'd like to think that he's a little smarter than that. After all, Roman mythology was the religion he grew up surrounded by.
-
Except she didn't avoid it.
Not for lack of trying.I'd like to think that he's a little smarter than that. After all, Roman mythology was the religion he grew up surrounded by.
Yeah, and then he spent the next approximately two millennia as part of Christian mythology.
-
Is not eternal damnation bad enough to want to avoid it? And perhaps Nic was just so focused on avoiding judgement from TWG that he was blinded by the other possible consequences. After all, he got himself played by Mab and Marcone, so he's hardly omniscient.
I think it is gross rationalization of Nic's part that eternal damnation in Hades won't be as bad for his daughter than being damned on Judgement Day.. Hades disabused Harry of that notion and if one cares to study Greek or Roman mythology the punishments for those deserving of punishment are pretty bad and eternal, they range from getting one's liver torn out and devoured repeatedly to eternal thirst with only a sieve to try and scoop out water, oh yeah, the rolling up a large bolder up a steep hill only to have it roll back down again...
-
Not for lack of trying.
I remain unconvinced that she was trying.
Yeah, and then he spent the next approximately two millennia as part of Christian mythology.
True, but given that he's well aware that the gods are real, I don't consider this an adequate reason to have neglected to realize how Hades works--if he was a bit unclear as to the detail after such a long time, he should have had the sense to check. You can find books of Greek/Roman mythology at any library, after all, and Nic had to have done a bunch of research to be able to break into Hades vault on top of that.
I'm fairly convinced that either A) Nicodemus knew exactly what he was condemning his daughter to (even if he wasn't too happy to have his nose rubbed in it) and thought it was worth the cost, or B) Anduriel muddled with his brain a bit.
-
WAG1: To summon Erlking, Harry used:
Heavy dog collar
Flint and steel
Bowie knife
Steel arrowheads
Whetstone
5 items
To summon God, Nicodemus could use:
Grail
Spear of Destiny
Shroud of Turin
Crown of Thorns
Plaque-forget its name
WAG2: The speartip sockets perfectly into the Blackstaff
WAG3: There are 4 Archangels, but we only see three Knights and 3 Swords. Spear is the fourth nail, to be born by Uriel's Knight
-
@Cozarkian
That is a really interesting theory & would play into who juiced up Namshiel when he was assaulting Arctis Tor in PG. It also explains Deedee’s sacrifice in SG. My only argument against it would be that if someone as powerful as Lucifer is Nfected, the Outsiders would have started winning the overall war.
@BrainFireBob
While I’m not sure that God can be summoned in a ritual circle, your WAGs are very interesting. I also don’t know why the Swords would be linked to Archangels - are any of them supposed to explicitly embody love, faith & hope?
-
From memory:
Archangel Michael gave Sanya Esperacchius. Sanya has also referred to receiving directions from Michael multiple times.
Archangel Raphael is described by Mab as the "Demonbinder," and that he prefers to work with his own hands. The wards on Michael's house were, as I recall, described as Raphael's handiwork by Lasciel and Amoraccius has only gone out twice we know of- to perfect candidates each time. Possibly when the other two Swords were already in use? Regardless, Raphael rarely appointing a Knight tracks with preferring to do things himself
Archangel Gabriel is the Trumpeter, and Mab notes he's proclamatory. *Something* seized Murphy when she was wielding Fidellacius to pronounce judgement on the Red Court.
Mab notes that the Watchman, Uriel, is the most subtle and his works are rarely observed.
That's consistent with him not appointing a Knight.
I originally concocted this theory after Warriors, thinking that giving Harry Soulfire was anointing him as a Knight of the Cross, and was the equivalent of giving him a Sword. I still rather think this- it explains why Mab would "share" Harry with Uriel at all, if Uriel had a prior claim (even if Harry is ignorant of said claim). Once the Lance of Longinus appears, the idea of it being the fourth nail for the fourth Archangel simply fit.
-
From memory:
Archangel Michael gave Sanya Esperacchius. Sanya has also referred to receiving directions from Michael multiple times.
Archangel Raphael is described by Mab as the "Demonbinder," and that he prefers to work with his own hands. The wards on Michael's house were, as I recall, described as Raphael's handiwork by Lasciel and Amoraccius has only gone out twice we know of- to perfect candidates each time. Possibly when the other two Swords were already in use? Regardless, Raphael rarely appointing a Knight tracks with preferring to do things himself
Archangel Gabriel is the Trumpeter, and Mab notes he's proclamatory. *Something* seized Murphy when she was wielding Fidellacius to pronounce judgement on the Red Court.
Mab notes that the Watchman, Uriel, is the most subtle and his works are rarely observed.
That's consistent with him not appointing a Knight.
I originally concocted this theory after Warriors, thinking that giving Harry Soulfire was anointing him as a Knight of the Cross, and was the equivalent of giving him a Sword. I still rather think this- it explains why Mab would "share" Harry with Uriel at all, if Uriel had a prior claim (even if Harry is ignorant of said claim). Once the Lance of Longinus appears, the idea of it being the fourth nail for the fourth Archangel simply fit.
I quite agree Harry is effectively an extra Knight - just look at what he does to Hannah Ascher in the vault, standard Knight working with added explosions rather than swords. Of course since Uriel is skirting the rules to get a 4th Knight, Lasciel still gets to be slightly manipulative even when Harry is talking to her, but that's the kind of tit-for-tat you get.
However, being that the case, it means Harry has been a 4th Knight since SF. So why would he need a 4th Sword to make him such? Nevermind that he has none of the three standard divine elements (Faith, Hope, Love) to work from.
However - there was a great big theological debate about Faith alone being what saves souls or Faith and works doing that, so making Uriel/Harry the Knight of 'getting the job done according to faith/hope/love' does have a certain appeal.
Your theory also does have a bit of fridge brilliance to never clear it up, so we might never get a clear yes or no; according to Wikipedia, there's debate about whether the crucifixion used 3 or 4 nails... And of course Uriel being a 4th Archangel is also disputed outside Dresden lore (and there's 3-4 more Archangels if you want to get deeper into the lore, depending if you follow Talmudic, Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, or Anglican ideas - but at least thanks to Mab's summary we can exclude those as particularly relevant; maybe they have jobs like keeping the stars burning rather than anything with humans).
-
My WAG is that Nic wanted the blood of Christ for some ritual work. The grail would have the most "residue" on it most likely, but each of the other objects would famously have some on them too, with the exception of the plaque.
But we dont really know what that is yet either. (my assumption was that it was the plaque affixed to the crucifix in most depictions of it, which bears the letter INRI) Seems likely if it was affixed to the cross, there might be some blood on it just by nature of where it was.
-
My WAG is that Nic wanted the blood of Christ for some ritual work. The grail would have the most "residue" on it most likely, but each of the other objects would famously have some on them too, with the exception of the plaque.
But we dont really know what that is yet either. (my assumption was that it was the plaque affixed to the crucifix in most depictions of it, which bears the letter INRI) Seems likely if it was affixed to the cross, there might be some blood on it just by nature of where it was.
There's also the supposition Harry makes in Death Masks that the shroud had faith-related power, simply because people believed in it. That would be enough to supercharge the grail, too. Probably also the plaque.