In chapter 51 of "Ghost Story," when Mab told Demonreach that he couldn't gainsay her claim on Harry, and that Harry was hers to shape as she pleased, Uriel could and did call those statements "lies."Uriel's not banned from lying, is he?
How could Mab, a faerie, lie?
Or if she was telling the truth (or even just what she believed to be true), how could Uriel call what she said lies?
In chapter 51 of "Ghost Story," when Mab told Demonreach that he couldn't gainsay her claim on Harry, and that Harry was hers to shape as she pleased, Uriel could and did call those statements "lies."
How could Mab, a faerie, lie?
Or if she was telling the truth (or even just what she believed to be true), how could Uriel call what she said lies?
In chapter 51 of "Ghost Story," when Mab told Demonreach that he couldn't gainsay her claim on Harry, and that Harry was hers to shape as she pleased, Uriel could and did call those statements "lies."
How could Mab, a faerie, lie?
Or if she was telling the truth (or even just what she believed to be true), how could Uriel call what she said lies?
Did Mab lie? (At the end of Ghost Story)From a 2011 DC signing.
Mab did not lie, Mab was wrong. There's a subtle difference to that, at the end of Ghost Story. As far as Mab is concerned, she's telling the truth, because she's telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level. So we'll see how that plays out a little bit more in the next book
From a 2011 DC signing.
That doesn't explain why Uriel said she WAS lying, though.7 words is a pretty harsh word limit, presumably just saying wrong instead wouldn't have been enough to snap Harry out of it.
7 words is a pretty harsh word limit, presumably just saying wrong instead wouldn't have been enough to snap Harry out of it.
That doesn't explain why Uriel said she WAS lying, though.
He didn't say she was lying.
Yes he did. He called her statements, and I quote, "Lies."
It seems to me like he could have gotten the point across just as easily by saying, for example, "Mab cannot change who you are, Dresden," so it has to be important in some way that he specifically called Mab a liar.
Maybe it's just that archangels have different criteria than mortals or fae or WOJ for what is or isn't a lie. That's the only explanation I can think of.
Yes he did. He called her statements, and I quote, "Lies."That does not mean she was lying. Mab believed what she was saying and she had good reasons to do so.
And a voice—a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, “Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 575). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
lie2
/lī/
noun
plural noun: lies(click to show/hide)
used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.
"all their married life she had been living a lie"
"Intentionally false statement" seems pretty clear to me.Which Mab did not do.
So why did Uriel say that she had? He was clearly referring to two or more statements, not situations. (There's only one situation that's really at stake.)He did not. He did not say Mab lied, he said her statements were lies. There is a difference. Mab obviously believed what she said.
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And a voice—a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, “Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 575). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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So why did Uriel say that she had? He was clearly referring to two or more statements, not situations. (There's only one situation that's really at stake.)I thought it was clear. The phrase is not Mab lies, rather that her statements are lies. They are true to Mab based upon a mistaken impression. It's a more arcane way of stating it. The prose is meant to do just what it does. Jim wants you to draw the inference and use the first definition when in point he is using the second. The first is more interesting, for lack of a better way to say it. He could have used mistaken impression and been clear.
"(The statements that were just spoken are) lies. Mab cannot change who you are" makes a lot more sense to me than "(The situations here are) lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
I thought it was clear. The phrase is not Mab lies, rather that her statements are lies. They are true to Mab based upon a mistaken impression. It's a more arcane way of stating it. The prose is meant to do just what it does. Jim wants you to draw the inference and use the first definition when in point he is using the second. The first is more interesting, for lack of a better way to say it. He could have used mistaken impression and been clear.I do not think Mab’s impression is even mistaken, it is just based on a different point of view. If Mab makes Harry change who he is, who had changed Harry? According to Mab she did it, according to Uriel Harry did it. Both are right in their own point of view.
I do not think Mab’s impression is even mistaken, it is just based on a different point of view. If Mab makes Harry change who he is, who had changed Harry? According to Mab she did it, according to Uriel Harry did it. Both are right in their own point of view.
But that isn't the point, it is what Harry believes to be true. Mab is perfectly happy to let him believe it. So she isn't outright lying to him, but it simply isn't true that she can change who he is. Uriel is saying that belief is a lie, not that Mab was lying.That is not the point either. For what Mab says Mab’s point of view is important because whatever she likes Harry to believe she can not lie from that point of view. To understand her words we have to look at her point of view. And in her point of view it is true because if she makes Harry do it it is the same. It is about practical outcome.
I think something to consider is the wording the Sidhe use. They speak the truth, but can be extremely deceptive in the way the speak it. Uriel knows the truth, but Dresden is at a severe disadvantage against Mab. I think Uriel was speaking in terms for Dresden to understand. Dresden BELIEVED he would be Mab's monster. That's why he had himself killed to begin with. Mab stated she would change him, and Dresden obviously believed this to be a fact. Uriel stating that they were lies may have simply been to break Dresden of the illusion he had no choice or free will in the matter.Mab was quite explicit in what she wants. She wants a knight that shares her purpose. From what we know about her purpose she will probably get it.
Mab wasn't lying, she could completely control Dresden, however as Dresden pointed out, she doesn't want a mindless slave that she had to control 24/7. She wants a Knight who follows her orders, and she wants Dresden, as Dresden. She chose him for a reason after all. Needing to control his every move would have made him a really poor choice of Knight.
I think something to consider is the wording the Sidhe use. They speak the truth, but can be extremely deceptive in the way the speak it. Uriel knows the truth, but Dresden is at a severe disadvantage against Mab. I think Uriel was speaking in terms for Dresden to understand. Dresden BELIEVED he would be Mab's monster. That's why he had himself killed to begin with. Mab stated she would change him, and Dresden obviously believed this to be a fact. Uriel stating that they were lies may have simply been to break Dresden of the illusion he had no choice or free will in the matter.
Mab wasn't lying, she could completely control Dresden, however as Dresden pointed out, she doesn't want a mindless slave that she had to control 24/7. She wants a Knight who follows her orders, and she wants Dresden, as Dresden. She chose him for a reason after all. Needing to control his every move would have made him a really poor choice of Knight.
Exactly, what Uriel told him is exactly what Eb was trying to tell him back in Changes.Or to make it more complicated. Uriel maybe was not even talking about anything Mab said. Uriel’s words were about what Harry was saying to himself.
Or to make it more complicated. Uriel maybe was not even talking about anything Mab said. Uriel’s words were about what Harry was saying to himself.
Pretty much this ^^
Paviel, can you at least accept the idea that Jim was not saying Mab was lying, nor was Uriel? It might have been better if Jim had used the word "wrong" or "false" but he was trying to use a word that has particular emphatic value, and "lies" isuch better for that than the previous possible examples. I agree with others that it would have been clearer to phrase it slightly differently, but the intention is clear enough...and the 2011 statement more than clears it up.
In any case, I wouldn't worry about it. Easier and happier to accept that Mab didn't lie, than worrying about an apparent inconsistency for too long - accepting the arguments that Mab didn't lie will probably be better for your enjoyment in the long run (unless you're a masochist).
Jim isn't a perfect writer and I think it's good as fans to do our best to try and understand what he was trying to do. If we hold his writing as gospel and immovable then we hold Jim to an impossible, ridiculous and unfair standard (not that you are, but in general). Jim is only human after all, and these stories were written mostly for fun.
Mab was quite explicit in what she wants. She wants a knight that shares her purpose. From what we know about her purpose she will probably get it.
She also has her ideas about what makes an effective knight just as she has ideas about what makes an effective winter lady. She will get a more effective team but not in the way she thinks.
Uriel is not bound to the truth in any way we know, he is bound to his purpose and he has a certain reputation. I would not take what he says at face value either.
I have already considered that it may have been an illogical leap to go from "The things Mab said were lies" to "Mab lied." I will no longer argue that point.I agree, it's an interesting notion to think about that lies might have a source, perhaps all lies. Naturally, the Father of Lies comes to mind but in the Dresdenverse he might not be the only candidate.
I like the idea that while the statements may have been lies, they weren't Mab's lies. But it makes me wonder who told Mab those lies...
Well look at it this way. If Uriel was wrong, then his words would have been nothing more than to comfort Harry before Mab turned him into her monster.For Uriel the important thing is what effect these words have on Harry, he had only seven words available after all.
So either he's correct, and Mab's words were lies, or he wasn't, and his words were ultimately meaningless. I don't think what he said was meaningless.
I don't think Mab was intentionally lying (she can't unless Nemfected, or if she took the Mantle off I guess??), I just think she's mistaken in her beliefs.
Mab was quite explicit in what she wants. She wants a knight that shares her purpose. From what we know about her purpose she will probably get it.He had a whole speech about how angels are held to a higher standard when it comes to lies in that same book.
She also has her ideas about what makes an effective knight just as she has ideas about what makes an effective winter lady. She will get a more effective team but not in the way she thinks.
Uriel is not bound to the truth in any way we know, he is bound to his purpose and he has a certain reputation. I would not take what he says at face value either.
He had a whole speech about how angels are held to a higher standard when it comes to lies in that same book.No idea what these higher standards are. Those seven words helped Harry without doubt, they had a positive effect. They made him think.
They might not have been literally true. Or they might be true in Uriel’s soul centric world view but very dependent on interpretation.
Harry turning the tables on Mab make it appear that it was true.It had the right effect on Harry and no doubts the words were well chosen but that does not necessarily imply truth.
Harry turning the tables on Mab make it appear that it was true.
If Uriel's words were not true, then by his own admission he is no better than Lasciel.And Uriel is not potent and can not be deadly?
"Mortals are free to lie if they choose to do so. If they could not, they would not be free. But others are held to a higher standard. Their lies are far deadlier, far more potent." (Uriel, "Ghost Story" chapter 50)
Maybe you could even say that Harry choose to believe in Uriel's words and as a result they became the truth.
Uriel can't mess with mortals' free will like that. As I said, he would be no better than Lasciel if he did.
What he said must have been True.
Uriel can't mess with mortals' free will like that. As I said, he would be no better than Lasciel if he did.
What he said must have been True.
Uriel can't mess with mortals' free will like that. As I said, he would be no better than Lasciel if he did.He could. With seven words to neutralize Lasciel’s meddling. But even Uriel can not undo Lasciel’s meddling so he can only interfere with Harry’s free will in a different direction.
What he said must have been True.
He could. With seven words to neutralize Lasciel’s meddling. But even Uriel can not undo Lasciel’s meddling so he can only interfere with Harry’s free will in a different direction.
"When a lie is believed, it compromises the freedom of your will." (Uriel, Ghost Story chapter 50)
Whose words would compromise the freedom of Harry's will if he believed them: Mab's, or Uriel's?
"When a lie is believed, it compromises the freedom of your will." (Uriel, Ghost Story chapter 50)Both. But Mab is only bound to what she thinks is true, not to what Harry makes of her words. Uriel is bound differently but we do not have the details. Probably something to do with promoting free will
Whose words would compromise the freedom of Harry's will if he believed them: Mab's, or Uriel's?
Isn't it said by Uriel that he is allowed 7 words to COUNTERBALANCE the words of the shadow. To me, that sounds like he can use any words he needs to use to fix the damage the lie did to the free will of the person.
“I’m saying many things,” Mother Summer said. “Do you have a chance to remain yourself despite the tendency of the mantle to mold your thoughts and desires? All Knights, Winter and Summer, have that chance. Most fail.” “But it’s possible,” I said. She looked up at me and her eyes were deeper than time. “Anything is possible.” “Ah,” I said, understanding. “We’re not really talking about me.” “We are,” she said serenely, turning her eyes away. “And we are not.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 335). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
A lie is balanced by truth. What was taken from Harry was hope. What Uriel offers to Harry is that hope, the chance that he can remain who he is. Mother Summer will reinforce this when she takes Harry to the Outer Gates.Can not change you is quite different from you have a chance. If you go for literal truth Mother Summer is more reliable.
If you have free will you can fall even if Mab can't force the issue. You can change yourself.Theoretically. But Uriel’s interpretation is not completely realistic. If you have absolute power over someone and can entice, blackmail, indoctrinate, influence someone’s emotions and senses etc. You can maintain that it is still you who is changing yourself but I think that interpretation lacks compassion.
Can mab lie to non-mortals? After all, demonreach is not a mortal.They can not lie to each other. It is not about the one they are talking to.
2011 DC signingI was there when the old magics were written...
Did Mab lie? (At the end of Ghost Story)
Mab did not lie, Mab was wrong. There's a subtle difference to that, at the end of Ghost Story. As far as Mab is concerned, she's telling the truth, because she's telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level. So we'll see how that plays out a little bit more in the next book
I was there when the old magics were written...But is cosmic level truth the same as practical truth?
But is cosmic level truth the same as practical truth?yes. Unless you can explain the difference I'm supposed to be denying? It's not for me to sus out why that'd be a cosmic truth and not a practical one, or even what those two things ARE for that matter. So what say you?
yes. Unless you can explain the difference I'm supposed to be denying? It's not for me to sus out why that'd be a cosmic truth and not a practical one, or even what those two things ARE for that matter. So what say you?For all practical purposes Mab can change who Harry is by adding pressure, temptation and controlling his sensory in and output. In Uriel's view it is still Harry who changes himself but really what is the practical difference?
Sith began quivering so hard that he was jitterbugging back and forth in place on the floor, his head twitching, his fur standing on end and then abruptly lying flat again. “Fight it, Sith,” I urged him quietly. “It doesn’t have to win. Fight it.” For a second, I thought I saw something of Cat Sith’s smug, contemptuous self-assurance on the malk’s face. And then it was gone. Just gone. Everything went away, and the malk stood for a second with its head down. Then it lifted its head and the motion was subtly wrong, something that simply didn’t have the grace I’d seen in the elder malk before. It faced me for a moment and then it spoke, its voice absent of anything like personality. “A pity. I would have been more useful to them as an active, covert asset.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 438-439). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
If you are prepared to die for it. With most people torture and bribes will get you quite far. Especially if they don’t know what is happening or don’t understand. Harry changed somewhat and nearly changed a lot more if he had not gotten his act together. He is Lucky Mab’s ambitions are not as destructive as Lasciel’s who could have changed him as well.But that is the point, isn't it? Harry did get his act together when he realized he was being changed by Lasciel. So it still holds, the only person that can change Harry, is Harry.
Or again in Uriel’s interpretation it was all Harry’s free will.
But that is the point, isn't it? Harry did get his act together when he realized he was being changed by Lasciel. So it still holds, the only person that can change Harry, is Harry.Can change you does not mean success is guaranteed. If you can make Harry change himself you have changed him
Can change you does not mean success is guaranteed. If you can make Harry change himself you have changed him
The keyword is "make," isn't it. In the end Harry still has to change himself if he chooses to, free will is still his.Which in practice can be just a technicality
Well, that technicality is important, at least in the Dresdenverse.For Uriel and for your final destination, not for Mab.
For Uriel and for your final destination, not for Mab.Except, the stark truth of Dresden's reply actually stuck. She didn't argue the truth, or much at all on it
Except, the stark truth of Dresden's reply actually stuck. She didn't argue the truth, or much at all on itIs it?
Is it?
Or is it because Mab actually liked what was happening. I think Harry had a totally wrong idea about how Mab wants to change Harry.
Mab isn't stupid, does she like someone who argues with her? No, on a lot of levels she doesn't, but the stakes are too high now, she needs effective and not mediocre.She actually liked Harry’s arranged suicide in Changes. She does not mind Harry arguing with her as long as he understand doing it in public will have grave consequences. She will actually put up with a lot as long as he is a winter knight worth having. What she wants is a knight who shared her purpose, I think that is done, is becoming more and more effective, that is happening, and shared her ruthless efficiency, we will see how far that gets but he moved in her direction.
She actually liked Harry’s arranged suicide in Changes. She does not mind Harry arguing with her as long as he understand doing it in public will have grave consequences. She will actually put up with a lot as long as he is a winter knight worth having. What she wants is a knight who shared her purpose, I think that is done, is becoming more and more effective, that is happening, and shared her ruthless efficiency, we will see how far that gets but he moved in her direction.
Is it?yes, she does. That doesn't make it less true or wrong or mean she wouldn't argue the point if she had one to argue. A equalling B has nothing to do with C see?
Or is it because Mab actually liked what was happening. I think Harry had a totally wrong idea about how Mab wants to change Harry.
yes, she does. That doesn't make it less true or wrong or mean she wouldn't argue the point if she had one to argue. A equalling B has nothing to do with C see?
Uriel doesn't have NO free will. Just not much. It's an important distinction. A while back Jim answered a question about how the Fallen must have had some free will in order to rebel in the first place. I think the same applies to all beings. However, due to Uriel's nature and high position, he cannot do all that much without breaking himself and the universe (or go a bit crazy perhaps).
This does not tell us he can not lie. It just says he has no free will. But the rules that bind him might even force him to lie under some circumstances.
Can change you does not mean success is guaranteed. If you can make Harry change himself you have changed himI think that while this view is valid enough as an argument in our world, I think in the Dresden Universe it isn't so much the case. It's a philosophical position in our world, but not in Dresden's. Jim is being clear enough that Uriel can dispense objective truth. However, you are correct in that he doesn't have to. But by choosing to lie he would effectively destroy a universe (remember what the Angel of Death in Ghost Story said about unmaking a reality by interfering)...perhaps it might even destroy a part of himself. He would Fall. Not to mention cause probably another civil war in Heaven. So you can see why he might not do that either.
If you are prepared to die for it. With most people torture and bribes will get you quite far. Especially if they don’t know what is happening or don’t understand. Harry changed somewhat and nearly changed a lot more if he had not gotten his act together. He is Lucky Mab’s ambitions are not as destructive as Lasciel’s who could have changed him as well.Everything changes you. So Lasciel, and Mab, have succeeded in a sense. Just by interacting with Harry. But changing the core of who he is...that's another thing entirely. And neither of them have achieved that...yet. It was Harry's free will but it wasn't totally free as a Fallen was interfering. Uriel reacts strongly to that sort of thing. But Uriel doesn't really interpret much. That's the job of the Judge, in a legal sense. Uriel mostly just does his thing. He doesn't make a lot of decisions on what constitutes universal law breaking, he just sort of knows via intellectus and reacts.
Or again in Uriel’s interpretation it was all Harry’s free will.
She actually liked Harry’s arranged suicide in Changes. She does not mind Harry arguing with her as long as he understand doing it in public will have grave consequences. She will actually put up with a lot as long as he is a winter knight worth having. What she wants is a knight who shared her purpose, I think that is done, is becoming more and more effective, that is happening, and shared her ruthless efficiency, we will see how far that gets but he moved in her direction.Much of that is true. But it isn't the whole truth either. Harry shares part of her purpose but he can't share it all because he doesn't know it all.
It is also a matter of point of view and interpretation. Uriel values free will, that is subjective. You do not have to agree with him. There was a short discussion between Gard and Marcone about it when Marcone decided to save Harry in dead beat. Gard was more like don’t mess with fate. Which is probably not just her opinion. It is also something from Greek tragedy.
Uriel represents a certain point of view. A very important point of view because of where Harry lives and who he is. But not the only one.
All myths are true.
Actually I think it was Gard that decided to save Harry in Dead Beat, because she already had him in her sites to take to Valhalla. However I really don't know how much "power" she has to decide the matter, because if she could have prevented the death of Hendricks she would have.Gard saved Harry because Marcone wanted it. Gard was against it:
"He didn't," said Gard. "I did." She looked over her shoulder at Marcone and frowned. "This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley."
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" Marcone asked.
"There will be consequences," she insisted.
Marcone shrugged. "When aren't there?"
Gard turned her face back to the front and shook her head. "Hubris. Mortals never understand."
"He didn't," said Gard. "I did." She looked over her shoulder at Marcone and frowned. "This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley."
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" Marcone asked.
"There will be consequences," she insisted.
Marcone shrugged. "When aren't there?"
Gard turned her face back to the front and shook her head. "Hubris. Mortals never understand."
I don't remember Mab having a say in it, I remember the above quote however. One wonders what the consequences will turn out to be, and for whom? I mean did Gard mean for Harry, or Marcone? Meaning perhaps the future showdown between Harry and now Denarain Marcone?Spelling mistake. Gard.