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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on November 21, 2018, 02:37:40 AM

Title: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: morriswalters on November 21, 2018, 02:37:40 AM
I have decided that my mind is going.  And everybody but me probably has realized this.  But on my umpteenth reread of Proven Guilty it just occurred to me that Sandra Marling is the prime mover.  She triggers all the events of the book. 

She knows who Molly is. She plants the idea that traps Molly into Black Magic by suggesting that fear can control addiction.  All the young people who Molly was associating with have her as a common denominator.
Quote
Molly looked at me obliquely for a second and then said, “She’s a part-time volunteer at one of the shelters where I’m doing community service. She helped Nelson out when he was younger. Rosie too, and her boyfriend.“

As the convention Chair she would have known that Madrigal Wraith was on the agenda.  She would have known the theater owner and the location of his theater.  She's at the hotel when all the events happen.  She leads Harry to Molly so he can  get her away from the police and allow her go home where she was vulnerable. 

She is described as middle aged and while there is no description of her height, there is this.
Quote
“Mister Dresden!” called a voice from across the crowded convention hallway. I looked up to see Sandra Marling hurrying through the crowd toward me. The convention’s chairwoman looked exhausted and too nervous to be awake, much less standing, much less politely pushing her way through a crowd, but she did it anyway. She still wore the same black T-shirt with the red SplatterCon!!! logo on it, presumably the same I’d seen her in the night before.
“Ms. Marling,” I said, nodding to her as she approached. “Good afternoon.”
For Harry to see her in a crowd and identify her she would need to be tall enough to be seen.  That's a stretch, but humor me.

Last, but not least, myrk or something like it is used in the attack and will be used again later in Small Favor under similar conditions by whoever sent the Hobs.  As well as a ward.

My WAG is Kumori.  But that is purely a WAG.
It also occurred to me that she was a ghoul posing as a human with Maeve doing the magic is the background.  Again a bad WAG.

Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 21, 2018, 08:34:54 AM
There have been alot of theories about Sandra Marling. Starting with her "fishy" name.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: morriswalters on November 21, 2018, 11:23:56 AM
/facepalm/  I can't believe I didn't make the connection.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: Bad Alias on November 21, 2018, 04:23:41 PM
Two points I picked up:
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 21, 2018, 11:21:29 PM
Perhaps some sorta thrall status makes her less of a danger and more of a victim to Mouse.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: Snark Knight on November 22, 2018, 12:30:44 AM
Quote from: Bad Alias on November 21, 2018, 04:23:41 PM
Two points I picked up:
  • Mouse never growls at her.
  • She has a cell phone.

Good catch on the cell phone. Zoo Day did establish that some kinds of possession on a sufficiently different wavelength are hard for even Mouse to notice, though.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: morriswalters on November 22, 2018, 02:09:18 AM
Quote from: wardenferry419 on November 21, 2018, 11:21:29 PM
Perhaps some sorta thrall status makes her less of a danger and more of a victim to Mouse.
Maybe a thrall of Madeline Raith's?  The drugs that landed Molly in trouble are right up the White Courts line.  And the they have local political connections in terms of courts.  She does something similar in Turn Coat with the lawyer?.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: Bad Alias on November 22, 2018, 04:42:40 PM
The cell phone thing just means she isn't a sufficiently powerful mortal magic user. I think Mort can use them, and Binder definitely can.

I may be mistaken, but I believe we have seen Mouse growl at black magic users and monsters with the exceptions of everyone already knew the threat was present, and Harry said the black magic user/monster was okay.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: Snark Knight on November 24, 2018, 12:40:28 AM
Quote from: Bad Alias on November 22, 2018, 04:42:40 PM
I may be mistaken, but I believe we have seen Mouse growl at black magic users and monsters with the exceptions of everyone already knew the threat was present, and Harry said the black magic user/monster was okay.

I mean, by definition if a villain was being super stealthy and Harry and the audience didn't recognize them yet, we wouldn't know if Mouse missed alerting on somebody.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: Bad Alias on November 24, 2018, 02:26:20 AM
Quote from: Snark Knight on November 24, 2018, 12:40:28 AM
I mean, by definition if a villain was being super stealthy and Harry and the audience didn't recognize them yet, we wouldn't know if Mouse missed alerting on somebody.

Sure, but we have never seen a situation in which someone turned out to be a villain (defined as monster/black magic user), and Mouse didn't alert to them before Harry figured out why/how that person was a villain. I feel that it would be a cheap trick if Sandra turned out to be Marva, and Mouse didn't alert to her. Now if she was some sort of cutout, that would not bother me.

P.s. please correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: morriswalters on November 24, 2018, 02:35:07 AM
It makes one wonder if Goodman Grey could pull if off?
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: Snark Knight on November 24, 2018, 03:16:28 AM
Quote from: morriswalters on November 24, 2018, 02:35:07 AM
It makes one wonder if Goodman Grey could pull if off?

I'm not still not sure how evil he is when he's not taking 'paying the Rent' jobs. The Monster LLC spinoff will be interesting if it ever happens.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: Bad Alias on November 24, 2018, 03:45:15 AM
Quote from: morriswalters on November 24, 2018, 02:35:07 AM
It makes one wonder if Goodman Grey could pull if off?

He seems "lawful neutral" to me, though we don't have much to go on.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: morriswalters on November 24, 2018, 04:19:37 AM
I don't know that I buy Goodman Gray.  I don't see him doing something that took as long as the game Sandra Marling appears to be running.  But when he did the money guy it appeared that the impersonation went deep. 

The other question that keeps on bugging me is how did they find Molly in the first place.  It is never explained in White Knight how they went about finding low level practitioners. Or did I miss it? I mean they don't advertise. And the Fomor are attacking them by Skin Game. Does somebody have a magic detector?
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: kbrizzle on November 24, 2018, 05:54:21 PM
I don’t buy Goodman Grey either. My read on Sandra Marling was that whoever she is, she is an agent of the Black Council. The couple of theories with merit in my opinion are that she is affiliated with the Black Court, or that she is affiliated with the Fomor - there have been speculations that both may have ties to the Outsider plot.

@morriswalters

That’s a good question. The simple answer is probably that they are constantly on the lookout for magical talent through various occult groups around the world.

If I were being conspiratorial however, I’d say that it has something to do with how Michael & Charity met. We know that Charity had some power & was following an increasingly insane sorcerer, Gregor (in the vein of Sells & Kravos), who was sacrificing his followers to a Dragon (Siriothrax I believe) for power. I have another WAG that these are the types of folks who are calling up Outsiders whenever they do show up. Anyway, Michael slew the Dragon, saving Charity. I wouldn’t be surprised if this put the both of them on the revenge list of the Black Council. So when Molly is of age, they send in Sandra Marling to begin pushing her towards the dark side.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: Bad Alias on December 01, 2018, 06:19:07 PM
Quote from: Bad Alias on November 24, 2018, 02:26:20 AM
Sure, but we have never seen a situation in which someone turned out to be a villain (defined as monster/black magic user), and Mouse didn't alert to them before Harry figured out why/how that person was a villain. I feel that it would be a cheap trick if Sandra turned out to be Marva, and Mouse didn't alert to her. Now if she was some sort of cutout, that would not bother me.

P.s. please correct me if I am wrong.

I was wrong. I'm reading White Night now and just recalled that Mouse doesn't alert on the Skavis. I haven't gotten to that part of the story yet, but doesn't Harry say something like Mouse must have figured that it would have endangered all the bystanders?

If Marling is from the spooky side of things, that same reasoning would explain why Mouse didn't alert on her.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: Snark Knight on December 02, 2018, 01:25:35 AM
Quote from: kbrizzle on November 24, 2018, 05:54:21 PM
Anyway, Michael slew the Dragon, saving Charity. I wouldn’t be surprised if this put the both of them on the revenge list of the Black Council. So when Molly is of age, they send in Sandra Marling to begin pushing her towards the dark side.

I don't think the Circle has much of an institutionalized "revenge list". Harry has screwed up a lot more of their projects than one pawn sorceror making deals with a Dragon, and even as of White Night Cowl was angry that Madrigal threw out a challenge to Harry because the chance to kill him wasn't worth the possible disruption of their work. Ariana held a grudge, but that was personal over Ortega's death, not about some half-insane anyway cutout.

If the Black Council targeted Molly, I think it more likely they had some idea of what she could become and wanted to subvert her early. Some of them probably have some form of foresight to counter Mab, Odin and Rashid - they'd practically have to, to have contended against the good(ish) powers for as long as they have with any degree of success.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: morriswalters on December 02, 2018, 02:56:38 AM
There is a subplot of some kind I think, revolving around magical talent.  The Fomor are disappearing some and someone was trying to kill them off.  The Fomor have been painted as masters of biology, maybe they know something?
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: kbrizzle on December 05, 2018, 03:23:41 PM
@Bad Alias

I agree - Mouse semms to only be able to pick up when someone has used black magic recently, not that they are a regular user of such magic (Mouse growls at Molly when Harry first meets her in PG because she had been using mind magic on her friends). But yes, Mouse absolutely does not pick up that Priscilla is the Skavis throughout WN.

@ SnarkKnight

I wouldn’t be surprised if it were a result of foresight on their part either. Although it certainly seems like the Black Council has plans for Harry... Killing him doesn’t profit them yet.

@morriswalters

Where are the Fomor painted as masters of biology? They definitely seem to have weird anatomies but I always thought that was a result of their being exiled creatures of several pantheons interbreeding or something.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: Bad Alias on December 10, 2018, 06:44:07 PM
Quote from: kbrizzle on December 05, 2018, 03:23:41 PM
Where are the Fomor painted as masters of biology?

They are the ones who made the Denarian's "hounds" from book 5. They also made the Octokongs and modified their servitors from people. At least that's what I figured morriswalters was referring to.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: morriswalters on December 10, 2018, 10:01:06 PM
Pretty much.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on December 21, 2018, 08:41:50 PM
If Sandra Marling is someone's thrall, she would be what Bob called a fine thrall.  Someone who doesn't realize they are being controlled by another being.  Sandra Marlings actions are too complex to be an ordinary thrall like we saw in Blood Rites.  So she might be in thrall to the Fomor, in thrall to someone in the White Court; like the lawyer in White Night, or to one of the Fae or possibly other supernatural entities, but not Mavra of the Black Court.  (According to Bob, Mavra most likely can't create fine thralls as she lacks any shred of humanity or empathy.  Of course Bob has been known to be wrong at times.) 

However, when Sandra sought out Harry, because the police were questioning Molly, this demonstrated that she was either acting on her own initiative; and therefore not a thrall, but an independent agent, or whoever was controlling Sandra was on hand at the convention to monitor events and change Sandra's instructions on the fly, when needed.

If she is an independent agent, Sandra Marling could be a disguise, just as Harry disguised Thomas in Small Favor, just a much better one than Harry could do.  Remember that Sandra organized Spattercon for over a year.  I just can't see any major supernatural being doing this, they'd get some mortal to do it for them, and perhaps we're back to Sandra Marling being a fine thrall.  However, a wizard who is mortal is only changing their name and perhaps their appearance from time time.  That is not so difficult to imagine.  So this doesn't rule out Kumori being Sandra.  Then again, I can't rule out a fomor servitor, either.  Another possibility is someone could have recently murdered the real Sandra Marling and taken her place, but that also seems unlikely for a supernatural player because they would have had to pretended to be Sandra for most of two or three days and know exactly how to run the convention, just for those moments when pretending to be Sandra might allow this being be able to tilt events one way or another.  It's possible, but it seems a stretch to me.     

In the notes to the Dresden Files RPG; which are semi-cannon, after the events in Proven Guilty, Harry has Billy look into Sandra Marling and she just disappears after the convention and there is no history of her before she is the convention's organizer.  This suggests Sandra Marling was not a thrall.  The only problem I have with her being Kumori is the time frame needed to organize Spattercon.  Kumori was working with Cowl a year before Spattercon.  Not only would Kumori have had to do some fast changing of jobs, she would have gone from being Cowl's apprentice or assistant, to directly working with the Black Council (or whatever you want to call the other side).  And she would have not have performed any necromancy for about a year because she didn't set off Mouse's black magic detecting ability.

I'm leaning to Sandra Marling being a either a Fomor servitor or some other Black Court (or Circle) agent or ally we haven't met yet.   
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: morriswalters on December 21, 2018, 11:59:02 PM
Spoilered since I'm talking about a pet peeve.
(click to show/hide)

Once you look it is obvious that Marling was somebody.  Just off the cuff I don't make her as a practitioner, but I wouldn't place money on that.  As someone posted earlier she uses a phone, but someone smarter than Harry may be able to shield a phone in some manner.   In Proven Guilty Molly throws so much dust up with her magic that  a subtle practitioner or a White could have been inside peoples heads stirring the pot and nobody would have ever known.

The story line kicks off before Dead Beat if I read the timeline correctly, possibly as early as Blood Rites.  Kumori would have been busier then a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs during that period.  Marling would have been at it better than a year, both planning the convention and whatever time she spent in the halfway house. What I would surrender cash to know, was if Molly was serendipity, or the original target.  It's almost like somebody was filtering troubled kids looking for talent. And hit the Jackpot with Molly.

Very subtly JB has made it clear that multiple people are looking for low level practitioners.  Lara and the Fomor for example.  And somebody knows how to find them.  If I was gonna speculate I'd make Elaine a person of interest.  A nasty suspicious mind would speculate that Elaine didn't dare reveal herself to the Wardens since they would want to Soulgaze her, that door is closed to Harry.  That she is just the type of person who could get into knife fighting range with Harry given his proclivities.  And she will know everything about the Paranet that Harry does after it's formed.  She was close to the Summer Lady when she went pear shaped.  And she could have been Nimfected by  the Walker when Justin was killed.  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?(this was just too precious to pass up using)

As a closing thought on this subject, give some thought to a device like thorn manacles, but without all the sharp and pointy bits. With a potion, like JK Rowling's, Polyjuice potion.  Remember that someone will use blood to accomplish something similar.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on December 28, 2018, 07:54:16 AM
Three interesting pieces of information from chapter 22 of Proven Guilty.

1: "Mister Dresden!" called a voice from across the crowded convention hallway. I looked up to see Sandra Marling hurrying through the crowd toward me. The convention's chairwoman looked exhausted and too nervous to be awake, much less standing, much less politely pushing her way through a crowd, but she did it anyway. She still wore the same black T-shirt with the red SplatterCon!!! logo on it, presumably the same I'd seen her in the night before.

2:The woman closed her eyes and shook her head, bringing herself under control, lowering her voice several pitches. "They're still... interrogating her, I think? Isn't that what they say? When they try to scare you and ask questions?"

3: I narrowed my eyes. "Yeah," I said. "Was she arrested?"
Sandra shook her head jerkily. "I don't think so. They didn't handcuff her or read from that little card or anything. Can they do that? Just drag her into a room?"

1: Sandra looks too weak and nervous to be standing, but she has the strength to push people out of her way, however polite she may be while doing so.  She appears to be wearing the same T-shirt she wore the night before.

2: Put yourself in Sandra's position.  You could guess the police are interrogating your friend as opposed to just interviewing her, but unless English is a second language for you, you know what interrogating someone means, you don't have to ask a rhetorical question about what it means.

3. "They didn't handcuff her" is a logical response to Harry's question, but "or read from that little card or anything" isn't.  It's a really weird way for Sandra to say she didn't think Molly had been arrested.  Even if we assume Sandra is from another country, there have been far too many American police dramas on both TV and movies, which have been shown around the world for Sandra not to say "or read Molly her rights."  (By itself, Law and Order became so ubiquitous it has been adapted to seperate TV series in the UK, France and Russia.)

By themselves, we might dismiss one or two of these behavioral oddities.  I think I have to revise my earlier opinion that Sandra is human.  In the first example I gave, it looks like Sandra may be having difficulty holding her disguise together; and wearing the same t-shirt two days in a row or an identical t-shirt two days in a row isn't something most people do.  But for someone pretending to human it's exactly the kind of mistake they might make.  I think I've already stated why items number 2 and 3 don't look like something an American might say or anyone even mildly familiar with American police dramas might say.

Taken all together, I think the above clues strongly suggest Sandra Marling is a supernatural being. 
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: morriswalters on December 28, 2018, 01:21:25 PM
The Fomor are listed as shape shifters on the wiki, but other than that I'm blank.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: AndiSue on December 29, 2018, 01:04:03 AM
Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on December 28, 2018, 07:54:16 AM

In the first example I gave, it looks like Sandra may be having difficulty holding her disguise together; and wearing the same t-shirt two days in a row or an identical t-shirt two days in a row isn't something most people do.  But for someone pretending to human it's exactly the kind of mistake they might make. 

An organizer of a convention would certainly wear the convention t-shirt two days in a row. On a normal convention day I would say she has as many of the same t-shirt as days of the Con. Given the events of the night before, at HER convention that she is responsible for, it would not surprise me at all for her to be in the same clothes because she never left the convention floor.
Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: peregrine on December 29, 2018, 01:34:18 AM
Re: Marling being exhausted and nervous, that doesn't necessarily mean she's weak.  It could simply be a matter of psychological exhaustion (which would fit with the nervousness.)  She could still be fully capable of physical feats, but still mentally a wreck.

Title: Re: Who is Sandra Marling?
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on December 30, 2018, 09:05:57 AM
Quote from: AndiSue on December 29, 2018, 01:04:03 AM
An organizer of a convention would certainly wear the convention t-shirt two days in a row. On a normal convention day I would say she has as many of the same t-shirt as days of the Con. Given the events of the night before, at HER convention that she is responsible for, it would not surprise me at all for her to be in the same clothes because she never left the convention floor.

But not an identical shirt.  Sure, she might wear something that has the convention's name or logo on it, but it would probably be a different type of clothing or if another t-shirt at least a different color.

Quote from: peregrine on December 29, 2018, 01:34:18 AM
Re: Marling being exhausted and nervous, that doesn't necessarily mean she's weak.  It could simply be a matter of psychological exhaustion (which would fit with the nervousness.)  She could still be fully capable of physical feats, but still mentally a wreck.

Generally speaking, Jim doesn't waste his words, especially when he's describing characters other than Harry, or describing their actions.  We know who Harry is, Jim's descriptions of other characters gives us clues about who and what they are.  Your explanation might make sense if Sandra had mentioned how hard she's been working without Molly's help, or something along similar lines. 

I believe Sandra Marling; or whoever was pretending to be her, will eventually make a return.  It's then that Harry will remember Sandra Marling's appearance and her physical actions at Spatercon!!!, not just what she said.  So I'm making a mental bet that the reason for Sandra Marling's behavior is that in her haste to free Molly she let her disguise slip, rather than she was having great difficulty dividing her time between running the convention and keeping track of Molly.  Both may seem equally likely, but one makes more sense dramatically.