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Uh…not allowing things just because there aren’t specifically rules for them is actually explicitly against the rules. Saying “Yes” is actually right in there.I'm not saying you should not allow it. But the moment you need to invent rules you have a House Rule. No problem with an House Rule. You should only be honest about it: Yeah the rules are unclear about that, this is how I rule it.
Wardens are given very broad powers in how they pursue their duties. Morgan tried to kill Harry (albeit indirectly) and got off without much of any punishment at all. He had backing, but so will others doing this sort of thing. Violating free will IS against a Law of Magic…and while it’s technically a grey area doing it to non-humans, it’s up to the individual Warden how to deal with grey areas.Thats Harrys (an law-breaking Wizard!) perspective talking here.
Well, the Ward Hounds aren’t mistreated, and that’s a false comparison anyway.Well you brought the mistreadment of Golems on the table. And its all in the eye of the beholder...
It’s like bringing up attacking Listens-to-Wind as an example of why attacking any Wizard is suicide. The Senior Council are rather obviously people you should tread lightly around.Its dangerous, you dont do it if there isnt a clear law violation.
Also, BTW, it’s Ancient Mai, not Martha Liberty who does the hounds.Yeah, got them confused.
Note that you'd need control +1 for every aspect of thaumaturgy that you wanted to do. Also, having 6 control lets you safely summon 2 power a pass, so your rituals can go twice as fast. The endurance limit can also be gotten around that way.
I disagree. A lack of rules for something doesn't necessarily imply that it works just like something else. It can, but it doesn't have to, and saying it doesn't isn't really a House Rule.But making rules for AI Construct is definitly a House rule. And you did that. You didnt say I dont allow AI Constructs because there are no rules for them...
True, though I'd be inclined to see Extreme Consequences as a fairly normal way to bind things.But then you wouldnt need shifts for extra duration.
Probably not, but a nice Warden who sees someone mistreating their Golem might well decide to do something about it. Kill them? Maybe, maybe not. Work magic to free the golem? Quite a bit more likely.Sounds like an Ex-Warden to me. Or an recipe for Civil War. Next you tell me an Warden tries to free cars from the oppression of their recless drivers?
Sorta. Though I'd likely let a PC do precisely that. Having powerful allies doesn't make PCs invulnrable, and I've never been shy about allowing it, nor should you be. I mean, look at Harry. He's personal friends with a Senior Council Member (as well as something like two dozen werewolves, the Summer Lady and Knight, and quite a few other people)...has that stopped him from getting in trouble?
Normally, magical shields persist for the whole exchange, so the block should stay up the whole exchange
True. How's this relevant?Got the wrong impression from the phrasing, I read "whole exchange" to mean whole encounter...
1Wanted to write, they need still to sleep. But with the right powers, they dont...
To help keep a cap on guys who want to do huge thaumaturgy when they have several days to do nothing.
2
...And note that being restricted is only worth a -1.
Not really. There are never any rules at all listed to deal with making magical Ais (beyond a statement in OW on p. 31 that it requires a large investment of magical power). The type of Construct Work that uses the Summoning rules is the kind that is summoning. AIs aren’t ever even implied to use the same.I would argue, they are implied because AI rules are missing.
It could break the binding. In fact, the GM can always break any binding by giving the bound creature a Major Milestone…breaking it’s binding by removing the Extreme Consequence.You are asuming the Creature has an Extreme Consequence and that the Consequence is: Bound.
See the first book, and Morgan getting antsy about Harry putting Toot-toot in a circle, or how worried he was about the Wardens not taking him summoning up Chancy well. It’s not technically a violation, but Wardens can still very much get on your case about it. And humane ones will do so.But Harry was under the Doom of Damocles and still got away. And what has humane to do with it? Will Wardens kill you if you hit an hound/cat whatever?
True enough. But on the other hand, a PC could make friends with Thor in a bar, and get an even nastier friend. If the GM lets him.
Map: Occult Seattle
Normally, magical shields persist for the whole exchange, so the block should stay up the whole exchange
The second goon rolls 4df and gets (0, 0, 1, 1) adding his good (+3) gun skill, and his tagged aspect gives him a total of +7 to hitCant tag the aspect a second time.
The defense provided by the Lucky Dictionary collapses, the goon has a margin of success of +0, and he is using a weapon:2, so Jing-Wei takes 2 points of stress:Not shure about this, if the Block gets canceled out, does it still decrease the attack?
Unless you take the time and energy to make a complicated magical AI, Constructs ARE summoning.
Even if you do the AI thing (which I'd actually rule to take ALOT longer), there's the potential of it going rogue,
or the Wardens coming down on you for creating a sentient being and mistreating it.
And if you aren't mistreating it and it serves you willingly... well, what makes it different from any other allied NPC?
No. No he doesn’t. He’d get a Fate Point if the enemy burned a Fate Point to use one of his Aspects…but if the enemy uses Tags he gets jack and shit. And you can make Declarations without burning fate Points on them, too.Got confused, thought Declarations need an Fate point. Whats the difference between an Assessment and an Declaration again?
It…really wouldn’t. Except inasmuch as he could make it one of his own Assessments or Declarations to enhance the summoning circle.Wouldnt it be an Aspect the Summoned Creature needs to buy of with an Fate point? (ToDo: Need to reread the Aspect chapter...)
Oh, indeed. But that makes this a tactic requiring A LOT of prep time. Wizards can do almost anything if you give them prep time…but their enemies are aware of this, and seldom give them such time.Not shure we are talking about the same. I'm talking about a wizard who uses one work day (8 hours) per month to gain 100 NPC's as followers. He does that regulary. If he need more he has 100 followers who protect him while he summons more.
Major players start seeing you as a threat, and various people start worrying that you’ll draw attention to the magical community. Neither of these are good for you.Finally an use for the "Marked by Power" Power
Okay, to be clear, he already has them bound. He the n spends a Complexity 4 or so spell summoning them, with no need for any Focus Items or circle (since they come pre-bound). Those are what likely take the time, not the summoning itself.Nice thinking. Need to remember this.
No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying characters don’t operate in a vacuum, and their actions provoke appropriate responses in NPCs.While I see this for summoning actual existing creatures. I have (as stated multiple times) a problem with Magical Constructs.
If the total complexity of the ritual is equal to below your base complexity, you don't have to do any preparation at all. You can do the whole thing in your head.
You can make a number of declarations equal to your skill (or workspace, etc) level minus two.So you would need an Workspace 3 to use +2 skills.
Ow, my aching knees
Well, the more important and powerful a creature is the more likely it is to use it's Consequences. So the Scarecrow might use all of it's (making it a Complexity 30 or so ritual), while a Hellhound uses none (making it a Complexity 10 or so ritual). That's a large difference. Or, using the 'multiple rituals' model, one or two Rituals vs. five or six.And how does the Wizard know before he tries to bind the creature, how many Consequences it will take? That sound very metagamy to me. Shouldnt the Wizard plan for the worst?
Indeed. And it can make Declarations that they exist, as well as Assessments (and old, powerful, creatures should do precisely that). Either way it's got a good chance to break the hell out unless that's one hell of a binding circle (say, another Complexity 15 spell or so, if you want to be really safe).Complexity 15 Containment spell. We are talking about two Assessments...
Also, you're ignoring the potential diplomatic issues with this strategy. If you go around doing this to powerful, intelligent, entities, your former minions and/or their friends and associates will likely be annoyed and do something violent and unpleasant to you. Summoning up Fetches in Scarecrow's league is likely to arouse Mab's personal interest (they're her elite assassins), while summoning and binding Elder Gruffs is likely to annoy their elder brother. Neither of these are healthy for you. And the results are likely to be similar for summoning similarly powerful entities.Back to the sample summoned creature: Magical Constructs - no diplomatic issues?
off the top of my head, with no actual situation to work off of...
Lore assessments of the actual spell. Rapport assessments of the wizard in question. Possible craft declarations of the wizard having messed up his circle. Lore declarations of the wizard having used a crow feather instead of a raven...
Also, if you are going to force your way out, you may be able to add in the complementary skill might bonuses from levels of strength powers. Also, may have some fate points if they got spent against you from the summon if they invoked any of your aspects.
Not to mention the social attack of 'let me out, you can trust me even though I've never given my word'.
Potentially. It depends on how you read and look at the rules. Even assuming that's the case, your new minion will then immediately need time to recover or be pretty much useless until it does. Also, see the other thread for reasons why this is usually a bad idea. Two words: Diplomatic Repercussions.How so, the minion can choose every time to take no consequences, and be bound.
Though now that I think about it, there's also the whole 'literal genie' problem, where your new minion is ordered to protect you from the demon, and immediately kills you since then the demon can't. That's a bit of an over-the-top example, but the kind of thing that's likely to be a much bigger problem for powerful creatures than the less powerful.Thats on of the reasons we want long term binding.
Not a lot, but some (he can't keep 22 Hellhounds around all the time).
And I'd argue that nothingdoes proves Summoning takes that little time (I'd make it quite a bit longer, personally). I, also personally, assumed his Summonings were of entire groups, and all conducted offscreen, all he did onscreen was yell the equivalent of "Here, boy!" at already summoned critters.(click to show/hide)
)When you (Self-)Transform into another thing you loose all your Powers and Stunts.
Unless you buy them back into the Ritual.
The basic difficulty for transforming is based on the True Shapeshift Power (-4 Refresh = 8 Shifts)
(Reason, while one Ritual can only change you into one form, you can have multiple Rituals. Thats True Shapeshift.)
Since you may want to end the spell before sunrise, we add another shift.
So the basic Self-Transforming spell is an Complexity Ritual 9.
So lets say our Wizards want to transform into an Wolf. With the Lvl. 9 Ritual he can take the form off an Wolf, but he is unfamiliar with the body.
He incorporates another Power into the Ritual: Beast Change for the Skill Shuffle (Demonic Co-Pilot would work too?).
Thats another Refresh (Total of 5) or 2 Shifts of Power. = Complexity of 11
After an Encounter with an Hellhound our Wizards want to change into one.
A Hellhound is an -7 Refresh creature with the -4 from True Shapechange that would be -11. To much for our Submerged Wizard (10 Refresh Total, max. -9 Refresh)
He researches further and cuts the Pack Instinct out and the Stunt Unflappable (Presence), that would bring the Refresh to -9, but then he realises he needs still the Beast Change Power...
He cuts the other Stunt since he overlaps a little with Echoes of the Beast.
Complexity of the Ritual (9*2)+1 = 19
Later in the Campaign after the Wizard got 7 new Refreshes he bought True ShapeChange (-4) and the Modular Abilities (-3).
So he can Shapechange into an Wolf on the fly (with all his Powers intact), but anything more complicated (like an bird) he needs still to cast an Ritual.
He could change into an Bird with allmost all his Powers intact with an Ritual.
Example:
-3 Evocation
-3 Thaumaturgy
-1 Wizards Sight
-2 Refinement
-1 Diminuitive Size
-1 Wings
-1 Beast Change
-4 True Shapechange
-----------------------
-16
He could'nt use his True Shapechange, because this is the Ritual Version. He would need to end the spell first.
The Complexity of the Ritual would be (16*2)+1 = 33
With two more Refresh spent on Modular Abilities he wouldn't need the Ritual (And it would be much faster).
IMHO with this you could play an Junior Wizards who grows into an Powerfull Shapechanger.
It's flexible, but you are at least 4 Refresh points behind the Specialist.
Jim has stated that the Erlking is not in the same League as Mab and Titania as far as power goes. Both of them should be statted up as "you lose". The Erlking should be statted up as "you lose, unless you are hella lucky".
As mentioned in another thread, I'd up that to at least Good for my games.
Third step is the Binding Ritual.
We have two objectives.
1. Binding the Hellhound
2. The Binding should last as long as possible (Time isnt allways available...)
We use 5 Shifts for the Binding and 5 Shifts for an extended duration.
The Hellhound cant succed against the Binding Ritual (without using Fatepoints). If he does use an Fatepoint, he is still Contained and our Wizard cast the Ritual again (which doesnt need preparation).
Lets say the Hellhound doesnt use an Fatepoint but rolls +4 with the dice. So he gets an Stressbox filled.
Our Wizard cast the Ritual again. The Dice are with the Hellhound, again +4. His second Stessbox is filled.
With the third binding Ritual he gets an mild consequence.
With the fourth binding Ritual he gets an moderate consequence.
With the fifth binding Ritual he gets an severe consequence.
With the sixth binding Ritual an exteme consequence.
With the seventh binding Ritual he gets taken out and is bound.
Thats an worst case scenario.