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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Vargo Teras on February 27, 2013, 02:53:04 PM
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I've seen a lot of people express the opinions that Demonic Co-Pilot and Feeding Dependency are badly costed, and it's occurred to me (particularly since Cold Days) that Sponsor Debt looks very similar in a narrative sense, but is mechanically much more interesting. With that in mind, I propose the following as a possible replacement for both of the aforementioned abilities:
Beast Within [-1]
Description:A powerful force dwells within you, offering power at a price.
Musts:You must have an aspect, usually your High Concept, explaining the nature of your supernatural partnership. This is most common among vampires and shapeshifters, but various scions may also have an inner nature which tempts them with power.
Effects:
Draw on the Beast:You may take sponsor debt instead of spending Fate Points when invoking aspects. This may usually only be done when drawing upon your supernatural powers (e.g., a hexenwolf biting someone with its Inhuman Strength, a White Court Vampire luring someone with its ability to Incite Lust), but may also be used for other activities in line with the nature of your Beast (e.g., a hexenwolf using Stealth to stalk prey, a White Court Vampire using Discipline to resist a compulsion to stop feeding). Invocations of the aspect tied to this power are always applicable.
The Price of Power:When you acquire this ability, specify an agenda for your Beast. This agenda is not necessarily malicious, but it is inhuman; shapeshifters are pulled to follow animal instincts, vampires are driven to feed, etc. The debt you incur with this power may be compelled to force you to act on this agenda; as with any sponsor debt, refusing the compel does not resolve the debt. The debt may also be compelled to deny you access to your powers for a scene (although never Creature Features).
Ever-Present Threat [+2]:For some, the Beast does not lurk quietly until drawn upon, but constantly slavers at the gates of the mind. Choose which of your supernatural powers can be aided by your Beast (at least two points of Refresh worth); the first time in a scene you use any of those powers, you incur one point of sponsor debt without the benefits of a free invocation.
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The ability to incur debt is not worth refresh.
It is, solely, wholly, and without exception, a particular manifestation of the compel and FP mechanics.
The more benefit one gains from use of the mechanic, the greater the price one pays for those benefits (in the form of more frequent and possibly more severe - in the case of escalation - compels).
It is entirely cost (and, inversely, benefit) neutral.
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What Tedronai said. Thematically, you need some sort of permission to take it (I recommend Marked By Power), and it's probably only available on some specific categories of action...but those are thematic limits no mechanical ones.
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So if the baseline power is [-0], should the Ever-Present Threat add-on be [+1]? [+2]? Some fraction of the limited powers?
And the whole point of this is to model things which are not Marked by Power, but have currently written bad powers to model them. I have never heard anyone suggest that Demonic Co-Pilot or Feeding Dependency are things that someone should take; sponsor debt is very popular. This power is meant to model "sponsor" debt to an entity which is not an external force like the Summer Court, but an internal force like the demon inside every White Court Vampire, a highly personal sponsor that nonetheless gives power and demands payment.
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I think someone created a self sponsor, or maybe it was internal sponsor, I don't remember, it was on the custom powers list. If I find it Will post it here. Point is it might be close to what you are looking for
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My group agreed to houserule "Marked by Power" to allow sponsor debt. That way, it costs refresh (as the ability to spend "future fate points" is an advantage, but not a numerically quantifiable one), but is a rider effect rather than the one you're paying for.
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Found it, though not what I had thought it was:
SPONSOR [-0]
Your character is sponsored by a higher power.
Effects:
Sponsored assistance: You may invoke an aspect in exchange for a point of debt to your sponsor, as per the Sponsored magic rules (YS288)
EDIT: There is also this, however I think it pertains to spellcasters:
SELF-SPONSORED MAGIC [-Varies]
Description: Either you've studied a branch of magic long enough to understand and use it intuitively, or you're a being of such singular power that a unique form of magic emanates from you.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline, Lore, others.
Effects:
Self-Sponsored Magic. This Power is in all ways identical to Sponsored Magic, except that it lacks an external sponsor. The Compels resulting from the debt taken to fuel this power are therefore obviously not connected to any external agenda; instead, they are linked to your Aspects like normal Compels.
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And the whole point of this is to model things which are not Marked by Power, but have currently written bad powers to model them. I have never heard anyone suggest that Demonic Co-Pilot or Feeding Dependency are things that someone should take; sponsor debt is very popular.
Maybe you could just let anyone with an appropriate Aspect take debt.
If you do want to go with a Power, it should cost 0. Like Sponsor.
The list also has rewrites for Demonic Co-Pilot and Feeding Dependency. Use them at your own risk.
You could probably model Ever-Present Threat as a Limitation if you wanted to, but maybe it deserves to be its own Power. Regardless, I like the idea of taking debt to activate Powers.
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Isn't there a sidebox that reads "The dark powers are always willing to help"? AFAIK, it says you're allowed to take Sponsor Debt even if you don't have a sponsor right now.
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That's pretty much why the sponsor power is free.
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Except for the part where even a -0 power is not, in fact, free.
A -0 power can, in fact, cost as much as 2 full refresh.
And the ability to receive compels is not worth 2 refresh.
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Except for the part where even a -0 power is not, in fact, free.
A -0 power can, in fact, cost as much as 2 full refresh.
And the ability to receive compels is not worth 2 refresh.
But, if you are trying to get power from an external source, you are no longer a Pure Mortal and thus do not deserve the bonus.
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But, if you are trying to get power from an external source, you are no longer a Pure Mortal and thus do not deserve the bonus.
Yup. This. Marked By Power or Bless This House aren't worth 3 Refresh either, nor is Wizard's Constitution worth 2, but all thematically break you away from mortality, and allow other powers, and thus scrap your Pure Mortal bonus...because you aren't a Pure Mortal any more.
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Their is neither solid thematic nor mechanical balance justification for Sponsor Debt to inherently 'de-mortalise' a Pure Mortal.
Thematically:
Sponsor debt does not inherently require the character to be in control of any power beyond that which is accessible to pure mortals.
Power exerted on behalf of a character is not power that character wields, nor do they necessarily even have any control over it.
Mechanically:
Invokes and Compels are already cost-neutral. EVERY character is assumed to have access to Sponsor Debt if they have appropriate thematic justification. This is explicit RAW.
NO power is necessary to access Sponsor Debt.
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However, that's only temprarily. If you desire to have permanent well of Sponser Debt, you kinda do give up Pure Mortal status.
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ALL characters are assumed to have access to Sponsor Debt whenever, wherever, and however often they can access appropriate thematic justification.
Something that solely represents access to such thematic justification is not worth refresh.
It is worth just about one permanent aspect having an appropriate component. And that's it.
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Isn't being able to take "debt" something you can do even sans Sponsor? Like, with the GM?
Maybe i'm just crazy.
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Isn't being able to take "debt" something you can do even sans Sponsor? Like, with the GM?
Maybe i'm just crazy.
It is.
You're not.
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Whew.
Hear that, sock weasel? I'm not crazy.
And on a second note, would you be interested in playing in the Semi-Divine Comedy? Two spots just opened up.
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Doesn't make much sense to me to treat the +2 Refresh as a thematic thing. Father Forthill is narratively as mortal as Murphy, but he doesn't get the +2 Refresh.
The mortal bonus is a mechanical distinction, not a narrative one.
However, that's only temprarily. If you desire to have permanent well of Sponser Debt, you kinda do give up Pure Mortal status.
Well, it's not really permanent. It ends when you die.
How long do you have to get supernatural help to make you not mortal? A year? Ten years? A lifetime?
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Quintinius Verginix up there has a point. Murph has arguably been getting supernatural help in the form of a pyromaniac wizard for at least a decade, and she's inarguably mortal.
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I doubt that Murphy is taking sponsor debt whenever she has Harry help her
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No, she isn't, but that isn't my point. My point is that supernatural aid or being able to draw on supernatural aid doesn't make you a supernatural being.
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The whole True Faith list of Stunts would seem to beg to differ...
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Hmm. I could argue that the True Faith powers are simply your own faith being expressed, but i'll concede.
The ability to take sponsor debt isn't worth refresh. Depending on the sponsor, it might be reasonable for it to cancel out the Pure Mortal bonus, however.
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The ability to take sponsor debt isn't worth refresh. Depending on the sponsor, it might be reasonable for it to cancel out the Pure Mortal bonus, however.
It might sometimes provide narrative justification (and conversely, sometimes not), but the mechanical balance analysis still solidly says 'no'.
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It might sometimes provide narrative justification (and conversely, sometimes not), but the mechanical balance analysis still solidly says 'no'.
Which is why I would generally say you should have some power tied to it if you're gonna have it long-term (I like Marked By Power for this).
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And why would that be. The ability to draw on points that you don't have seems like a solid thing to lose the pure mortal bonus for.not only that but for it to happen you would narratively have to be aligned with a sponsor. If that's the case then there should be no +0 powers. Wizard constitution is probably never going to come up during the course of the game, in fact that is stated in the power, but taking this power drops your pure mortal bonus.
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For a sponsor where you don't lose your Pure Mortal bonus? The Chicago Police Department.
Take a point of sponsor debt to boost a Resources roll to bribe a drug dealer for information.
Take a point of sponsor debt to boost a Guns roll, reflecting your extensive training.
Take a point of sponsor debt to boost a Driving roll, reflecting your training in agressive driving and car chases.
It's a -0 power because that should really be covered by a High Concept and going into debt with the GM.
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For a sponsor where you don't lose your Pure Mortal bonus? The Chicago Police Department.
This is definitively not RAW...I seriously doubt it's RAI either. I might well still allow it in some game, though.
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I know it's not RAW! Argh! I need to trawl YS for the page that says GM DEBT IS A THING.
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I know it's not RAW! Argh! I need to trawl YS for the page that says GM DEBT IS A THING.
Might be a good call, yeah. I'm not remembering ever reading that, and I doubt I'm alone in that. I agree that Sponsor Debt's pretty much meaningless on a mechanical level, mind you, but that's pure analysis, not anything I'm actually remembering being listed.
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Yea I think I missed that too though I think tedronai mentioned seeing it
EDIT:I think I may have found it. It is the only part of the book that talks about GM debt. Page 92 of YS. It refers to mid session upgrades. If you don't have enough refresh to pay for the powers you can go into GM debt. This is the only thing I could find that could be what you are talking about
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That's probably it.
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That's...not a general rule about FP spending at all. It's specific to getting new powers, and only allowed even then if you can't pay for them out of FP. Again, I'm not saying that being able to take Sponsor Debt should cost anything...but it's not a default of the system that all characters can do it, either.
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Huh. Apparently, i've got a memory that retroactively edits itself. I could have sworn you could take "GM debt".
I'm just going to go slam my head against a desk for a while and hope I come back saner.
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The whole True Faith list of Stunts would seem to beg to differ...
As I said earlier, being a pure mortal and getting a Pure Mortal Refresh bonus are not the same thing.
Look, arguing that something should "thematically" lose you the Pure Mortal bonus is silly. "Thematically", the Pure Mortal bonus is not a thing. It's purely a mechanical abstraction.
This is definitively not RAW...
The book doesn't prohibit the possibility at all, actually.
Wizard constitution is probably never going to come up during the course of the game, in fact that is stated in the power, but taking this power drops your pure mortal bonus.
It's pretty dumb, eh?
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As I said earlier, being a pure mortal and getting a Pure Mortal Refresh bonus are not the same thing.
Look, arguing that something should "thematically" lose you the Pure Mortal bonus is silly. "Thematically", the Pure Mortal bonus is not a thing. It's purely a mechanical abstraction.
No, it's not. It's a representation of the greater degree of free will Pure Mortals have as opposed to supernatural creatures. Still, I don't entirely disagree, removing it for purely thematic reasons doesn't quite work out.
The book doesn't prohibit the possibility at all, actually.
Prohibit? No. There'd need to be some rule remotely allowing it for that. There's really not any support for any Sponsors other than those of Sponsored Magic. They're perfectly balanced, but very much not a part of the RAW.
It's pretty dumb, eh?
Uh...actually, never needing an emergency room or other justification to recover from damage is something that comes up...and potentially pretty cool. Not 2 Refresh worth of cool, I admit, but it's not useless.
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No, it's not. It's a representation of the greater degree of free will Pure Mortals have as opposed to supernatural creatures. Still, I don't entirely disagree, removing it for purely thematic reasons doesn't quite work out.
Yeah, but this runs into (thematic) problems with True Believers (who are narratively entirely mortal -- Charity, Father Forthill) and possibly Minor Talents (Cassandra's Tears types, etc.)
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I see no thematic problem from having two less refresh. If you want to have the refresh don't take powers, pretty simple
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I was just thinking that you can easily view the refresh as it being a hell of a lot easier for random Joe the pure mortal accountant to go screw this I'm out of here with no further consequences then either those who are already touched by the supernatural (wizards and minor talents) or those with a hard belief that they must make a stand (true believers) without either abandoning who they are or being roped in later anyway.
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Yeah, but this runs into (thematic) problems with True Believers (who are narratively entirely mortal -- Charity, Father Forthill) and possibly Minor Talents (Cassandra's Tears types, etc.)
Mortals who've placed that much faith in a particular deity have given up some of their free will to the deity in question. This seems both reasonable and appropriate. Michael and Father Forthill have a lot less freedom to act than someone who isn't working for their boss, y'know?
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I'd argue that they're restrained by their morals rather than God explicitly not allowing them to do things. Father Roarke, for example, is still a True Believer despite having warped morals.
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I'd argue that they're restrained by their morals rather than God explicitly not allowing them to do things. Father Roarke, for example, is still a True Believer despite having warped morals.
We actually have zero evidence of that, and given how Guide My Hand (a True Believer requirement) works, it seems highly unlikely.
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No, it's not. It's a representation of the greater degree of free will Pure Mortals have as opposed to supernatural creatures. Still, I don't entirely disagree, removing it for purely thematic reasons doesn't quite work out.
Mortals who've placed that much faith in a particular deity have given up some of their free will to the deity in question. This seems both reasonable and appropriate. Michael and Father Forthill have a lot less freedom to act than someone who isn't working for their boss, y'know?
The White God is all about enhancing and promoting free will. He doesn't take it away.
Anyway, this sort of thing is easy to come up with if you're starting from the assumption that Refresh makes sense as a thematic thing and then working to justify that.
But no matter how many justifications you come up with, the cracks in the original idea will show through.
Why does becoming famous for my sword skills (stunt moving Reputation to Weapons) reduce my free will?
Why does training to become a great locksmith (Burglary stunt) reduce my free will?
Why is my free will affected by the number of people who know that knives soaked in moose urine are deadly to me?
I can come up with this stuff all day. If you want to justify it all, you'll have to twist your definition of free will into pretzels.
The Refresh-freedom thing only works in a very broad sense. It totally collapses when you look at it point-by-point. So you shouldn't use it to back up specific points; it never works at that scale.
Prohibit? No. There'd need to be some rule remotely allowing it for that. There's really not any support for any Sponsors other than those of Sponsored Magic. They're perfectly balanced, but very much not a part of the RAW.
There's as much RAW support for non-magical sponsors as there is for the existence of a character named Alphonse Whitwell.
Being sponsored by the police is no less RAW than naming your character Alphonse Whitwell.
Uh...actually, never needing an emergency room or other justification to recover from damage is something that comes up...and potentially pretty cool. Not 2 Refresh worth of cool, I admit, but it's not useless.
I guess whether it's useful depends on the game.
Thing is, either the Power is inappropriately costed at 0 or it's inappropriately costed at 2. Can't be fair at both costs.
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There's as much RAW support for non-magical sponsors as there is for the existence of a character named Alphonse Whitwell.
Being sponsored by the police is no less RAW than naming your character Alphonse Whitwell.
I disagree with this statement. RAW explicitly says name your character. It never talks about non magical sponsors
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Eh. The idea I was trying to get across is that (IIRC) the RAW say nothing either way, so it's probably not worth talking about them.
Maybe not the best way to say that, in retrospect.
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Yea. Ultimatly its up to the group/gm what they want to do.