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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: wardenferry419 on November 07, 2017, 11:28:40 PM
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Lord Raith and his magic protection. How did that happen?
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Is this all that unsolved? In hindsight it sounds Outsidery as all hell, even if the specifics aren't confirmed.
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Could be something Margaret gave him, after all she knew her way around it too.
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I agree with it being Outsidery. It is the details I am curious about.
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I agree with it being Outsidery. It is the details I am curious about.
I am quite sure it was mentioned somewhere that you needed mortals to summon them. Raith was not a wizard himself but he has a big library to attract them.
Justin worked with outsiders but for some reason he seems not inventive enough. Margaret was obviously interested in outsiders with that whole starborn thing she planned.
It could have been Cowl, he must have been active for quite some time.
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Some kind of deal with Outsiders.
@Arjan To clarify, 1 Outsider claimed to work with Justin.
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Some kind of deal with Outsiders.
@Arjan To clarify, 1 Outsider claimed to work with Justin.
The version of the story in Ghost Story is most reliable. I assume Justin had summoned him but he could have been here already. Fact is that Justin interacted with it.
I do not think working with outsiders is that safe, I suppose that in the end you always end up working for them and getting mentally influenced as well. The outsider has its own agenda.
But if I remember woj correctly both elaine and harry have the same starborn potential. That is no accident. It is the second tie between Justin and outsiders.
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The way magic just sluffs off of him, it's been described as the same way it does Outsiders.
One theory is that he's got a talisman (his earring) that gives him the anti-magic benefit.
Where the earring came from ... Got me.
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The version of the story in Ghost Story is most reliable. I assume Justin had summoned him but he could have been here already. Fact is that Justin interacted with it.
I do not think working with outsiders is that safe, I suppose that in the end you always end up working for them and getting mentally influenced as well. The outsider has its own agenda.
But if I remember woj correctly both elaine and harry have the same starborn potential. That is no accident. It is the second tie between Justin and outsiders.
Did GS show us Justin actually interacting with HWWB or admitting to doing so? I don't remember that. I thought GS is where realized that the only connection between Justin and HWWB was HWWB claiming to have been sent by Justin, which could easily have been a lie.
Justin's use of Starborn is a connection to Outsiders, but quite possibly it is a connection that makes Justin an enemy of Outsiders, not an ally.
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Did GS show us Justin actually interacting with HWWB or admitting to doing so? I don't remember that. I thought GS is where realized that the only connection between Justin and HWWB was HWWB claiming to have been sent by Justin, which could easily have been a lie.
Justin's use of Starborn is a connection to Outsiders, but quite possibly it is a connection that makes Justin an enemy of Outsiders, not an ally.
I've long theorized that we'll find out that Justin wasn't really a bad guy. He may have used rough means to attain his ends.
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I've long theorized that we'll find out that Justin wasn't really a bad guy. He may have used rough means to attain his ends.
'rough means' as in baseballs to train shields? Not really a bad guy.
'rough means' as in thralldom? Still a bad guy.
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'rough means' as in baseballs to train shields? Not really a bad guy.
'rough means' as in thralldom? Still a bad guy.
If I remember correctly, didn't Anna teach Morgan using stones? I think I'd prefer baseballs... well, I'd prefer snowballs, but I'd take baseballs over stones...
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If I remember correctly, didn't Anna teach Morgan using stones? I think I'd prefer baseballs... well, I'd prefer snowballs, but I'd take baseballs over stones...
I don't know...Stones could potentially shatter on impact which would limit there effectiveness past a certain point. Baseballs could potentially do more damage.
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'rough means' as in baseballs to train shields? Not really a bad guy.
'rough means' as in thralldom? Still a bad guy.
That about covers which end of the spectrum that Justin was on.
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'rough means' as in baseballs to train shields? Not really a bad guy.
'rough means' as in thralldom? Still a bad guy.
I still haven't worked out the thralldom part, but Yeah, baseballs aren't so bad. Harry survived and thrived AND learned the lesson.
Leah has a point in her training of Molly.
I imagine that Justin knew he had a short time to get these starborn trained.
Remember that he also used baseball as a reward for Harry lighting his fire.
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I still haven't worked out the thralldom part, but Yeah, baseballs aren't so bad. Harry survived and thrived AND learned the lesson.
Leah has a point in her training of Molly.
I imagine that Justin knew he had a short time to get these starborn trained.
Remember that he also used baseball as a reward for Harry lighting his fire.
I've said it before, but I think along similar lines. I think Justin's hand was forced, and he went from "I need to toughen these kids up for the upcoming fight" to "I know they won't listen to me, and they need to fight NOW."
I think Justin was getting ready to run.
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I've said it before, but I think along similar lines. I think Justin's hand was forced, and he went from "I need to toughen these kids up for the upcoming fight" to "I know they won't listen to me, and they need to fight NOW."
I think Justin was getting ready to run.
As a warlock you must always be ready to run.
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'rough means' as in thralldom? Still a bad guy.
Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds. How do you know Justin wasn't enthralling Elaine so she could learn to fight it with her full knowledge and consent? Or maybe Elaine had been nemfected and Justin enthralled her so he could cure her?
And doesn't it seem odd that Harry was able to defeat an accomplished warden while an enthralled apprentice was able to escape? I think Justin died because he used his last moments to save Elaine's life by opening a way to the NN and pushing her through. That is how Elaine ended up with the Summer Court and why Harry could never find her.
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Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds.
Harry and Molly did not enthrall each other and they did not invade each others mind.
How do you know Justin wasn't enthralling Elaine so she could learn to fight it with her full knowledge and consent?
Because he tried to enthrall Harry as well? Because being enthralled does not help with anything, ask Luccio.
Or maybe Elaine had been nemfected and Justin enthralled her so he could cure her?
Why infect an apprentice? Nemesis is usually more picky than that.
And doesn't it seem odd that Harry was able to defeat an accomplished warden while an enthralled apprentice was able to escape?
Justin underestimated Harry. Elaine could escape because Harry killed Justin.
I think Justin died because he used his last moments to save Elaine's life by opening a way to the NN and pushing her through. That is how Elaine ended up with the Summer Court and why Harry could never find her.
In ghost story Harry tells about Justin and Lea agrees with him. I think that was conclusive enough. Justin was one of the bad guys. He would not save Elaine if his own life was on the line.
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Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds. How do you know Justin wasn't enthralling Elaine so she could learn to fight it with her full knowledge and consent? Or maybe Elaine had been nemfected and Justin enthralled her so he could cure her?
And doesn't it seem odd that Harry was able to defeat an accomplished warden while an enthralled apprentice was able to escape? I think Justin died because he used his last moments to save Elaine's life by opening a way to the NN and pushing her through. That is how Elaine ended up with the Summer Court and why Harry could never find her.
I am going to, respectfully, disagree with you here. Justin does not deserve noble memories.
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Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds.
Harry was teaching Moly how to defend her mind and fight back by trying to project one image (Darth Vader in his TIE fighter) past each other's defenses. He was not teaching her how to dominate/enthrall another's mind.
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Harry and Molly did not enthrall each other and they did not invade each others mind.
They didn't enthrall each other, but I'm pretty sure they "invaded" each other's minds. Harry describes them playing war with each other's minds in GS. Now, technically, they had permission and they didn't actually make any changes to each others' minds or harm each other, so it wasn't literally invading. They didn't enthrall each other, and even if Justin enthralled Elaine with her permission, that was worse, but to me it if falls into the same category as snowballs v. stones.
Because he tried to enthrall Harry as well?
It looks like he was going to try to enthrall Harry as well, but we don't know that for certain and again, Justin could have had misguided "benevolent" reasons for planning to enthrall Harry, such as training/nemesis detection.
Because being enthralled does not help with anything, ask Luccio.
Did Luccio know she was enthralled? The entire White Council is negligent on mental defense training. Maybe if Luccio had training in being enthralled she could have recognized and resisted the influence and La Fortier would still be alive.
Why infect an apprentice? Nemesis is usually more picky than that.
To take control of a potential starborn before she has come into her full power.
Justin underestimated Harry.
True, but irrelevant.
Elaine could escape because Harry killed Justin.
How? If she was still enthralled, she couldn't move until Justin was dead and the spell was broken, and at that point there is a good chance it would have been too late. Either Justin removed the enthrallment, saved her, or Elaine already knew how to open Ways to the NN and was therefore more powerful at that age than we know.
In ghost story Harry tells about Justin and Lea agrees with him. I think that was conclusive enough.
I don't remember that. I thought GS was the book that gave hints that Justin wasn't all bad, but maybe I'm wrong and need to do a reread.
Justin was one of the bad guys. He would not save Elaine if his own life was on the line.
Maybe, and more likely true than not, but there is absolutely room for reasonable doubt.
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I agree with it being Outsidery. It is the details I am curious about.
I'm quite curious on the ruby in his ear and it's ties to bloodline magic, especially considering other WCV/Outsider connections. Yea, yea, not what woj says, but woj says tongue and cheekly.
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They didn't enthrall each other, but I'm pretty sure they "invaded" each other's minds. Harry describes them playing war with each other's minds in GS. Now, technically, they had permission and they didn't actually make any changes to each others' minds or harm each other, so it wasn't literally invading. They didn't enthrall each other, and even if Justin enthralled Elaine with her permission, that was worse, but to me it if falls into the same category as snowballs v. stones.
It is fundamentally different. Not just because Justin was breaking the laws and Harry was not or because Harry was strengthening Molly and Justin was weakening her but also because messing with someones free will like that is fundamentally evil in the dresdenverse.
It looks like he was going to try to enthrall Harry as well, but we don't know that for certain and again,
Harry told us in ghost story and these are his true memories. Lea confirmed it.
Justin could have had misguided "benevolent" reasons for planning to enthrall Harry, such as training/nemesis detection.
Did Luccio know she was enthralled?
After the fact and she told Harry how confused it made her, read their discussion at the end of turncoat. And Lucio was an experienced wizard, elaine was just a young girl.
The entire White Council is negligent on mental defense training. Maybe if Luccio had training in being enthralled she could have recognized and resisted the influence and La Fortier would still be alive.
To take control of a potential starborn before she has come into her full power.
True, but irrelevant.
How? If she was still enthralled, she couldn't move until Justin was dead
Enthralled does not mean turned into a statue. She could certainly flee fire, that is instinctual.
and the spell was broken, and at that point there is a good chance it would have been too late. Either Justin removed the enthrallment, saved her, or Elaine already knew how to open Ways to the NN and was therefore more powerful at that age than we know.
Elaine probably had simmilar connections to summer as harry had to winter. They found her and they made a deal.
I don't remember that. I thought GS was the book that gave hints that Justin wasn't all bad, but maybe I'm wrong and need to do a reread.
Maybe, and more likely true than not, but there is absolutely room for reasonable doubt.
Lea is always good for some insights when she doing her duty as godmother:
“That was my first fight,” I said quietly to my godmother. “I’d never used magic to hurt anything before.” I rubbed my hand over my head. “If I hadn’t cut class that day . . . I don’t know. I might never have become what I did.”
“Is that the lesson you took from the memory?” Lea asked, her smile spreading. “You were clearly being prepared to be an enforcer.”
“It seems that way,” I hedged, trying to read her expression. “But Justin never actually tried to get me to hurt anyone.”
“Why would he wish you to be armed against him before he was certain of your loyalty?” Lea asked. “He would have. It was inevitable.”
“Probably,” I said. “But there’s no way we can know, really. It’s a long way from breaking boards in practice to breaking bones in life.”
“Quite. Because convincing a young mortal to believe that it is right and proper to use magic for violence is a delicate process and one that cannot be rushed.”
I grunted and leaned my head back against the wall of my grave.
“All the wishing in the world will not change the past, my godson,” Lea said. “You would like to believe that perhaps Justin had hidden good intentions of some sort. That what happened between you was some kind of misunderstanding. But you understood him perfectly.”
“Yeah. Probably. I’d forgotten how much it hurt—that’s all,” I said quietly. “I’d forgotten how much I loved him. How much I wanted him to be proud of me.”
“Children are vulnerable,” Lea said. “They are easily deceived and notoriously subject to such delusions. You are no longer a child.”
That seems enough for me to dispell all notions of a good justin.
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Thanks for digging that quote up. Should put the good justin theory to bed.
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I agree. Justin is not redeemable.
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Thanks for digging that quote up. Should put the good justin theory to bed.
I don't think he was good exactly, but I think, in his mind, he thought he was doing something necessary. It doesn't make what he did okay, but we don't know why he did what he did. If it was power for power's sake, sure, that's pretty much my definition of evil. His motivation is important, and it hasn't been conclusively stated. Lea's statement is based on her knowledge and interpretation; she's likely right, but I still want to know why Justin was cultivating starborns specifically.
Interesting thought on Elaine's connections to Summer mirroring Harry's to Winter. Makes me wonder more about Elaine's parents.
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I don't think he was good exactly, but I think, in his mind, he thought he was doing something necessary. It doesn't make what he did okay, but we don't know why he did what he did. If it was power for power's sake, sure, that's pretty much my definition of evil. His motivation is important, and it hasn't been conclusively stated. Lea's statement is based on her knowledge and interpretation; she's likely right, but I still want to know why Justin was cultivating starborns specifically.
Interesting thought on Elaine's connections to Summer mirroring Harry's to Winter. Makes me wonder more about Elaine's parents.
Valid points. He was probably perfectly justified in his own mind for doing what he did. He could be evil and seeking power or he could have been preparing for an upcoming storm (maybe he saw the Outsider threat). Whatever his plan, I agree that with an earlier poster that subjugating someone's free will crossed the line into evil territory. Hopefully we will continue to get peaks behind the curtain about Justin's past and Harry's time with him.
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I'm willing to bet quite a bit that we will get a full account of Justin's motives by the end of the books, possibly directly from the source if he's still kicking (or other magic shenanigans). Eb kept journals. Maybe Justin did, too.
Or, you know, Bob.
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I think Justin might have been Elaine's father.
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Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds. How do you know Justin wasn't enthralling Elaine so she could learn to fight it with her full knowledge and consent? Or maybe Elaine had been nemfected and Justin enthralled her so he could cure her?
And doesn't it seem odd that Harry was able to defeat an accomplished warden while an enthralled apprentice was able to escape? I think Justin died because he used his last moments to save Elaine's life by opening a way to the NN and pushing her through. That is how Elaine ended up with the Summer Court and why Harry could never find her.
Man... me being me, I just got some thematic insight from your post. Harry who does everything of his own volition but under subversive means by others is in direct opposite to Elaine(as theoretical Kumori) who is directed to do what she does but uses it to manipulate everyone else. Mmmm... starts me thinking that Dresden is balanced by basically everything in the end lol.
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That seems enough for me to dispell all notions of a good justin.
Well, Lea can't lie and she should be in a position to have known Justin since he was an associate of Maggie and since she was probably watching over Harry at various points in his life. There remains a possibility that she could be wrong, but assuming JB wasn't just being deceptive to cast doubt on something he wants to reveal later, it does seem likely that Justin was evil. Justin is too important to be actually evil and just a dead enemy, though, so I'm guessing that makes him Cowl.
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I think Justin might have been Elaine's father.
I've considered it, and it's a little too juicy to dismiss. I think it'd be cool.
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I don't think he was good exactly, but I think, in his mind, he thought he was doing something necessary. It doesn't make what he did okay, but we don't know why he did what he did. If it was power for power's sake, sure, that's pretty much my definition of evil. His motivation is important, and it hasn't been conclusively stated. Lea's statement is based on her knowledge and interpretation; she's likely right, but I still want to know why Justin was cultivating starborns specifically.
My take on it, fwiw.
Harry being starborn seems to largely involve, from what we know so far, power over Outsiders. The humans we have seen in the series display some knowledge and power connected to Outsiders are Cowl (summoning the Outsider-feeling pterodactyl/comet thing in the caverns at the end of WN), Justin (summoning the Walker to send after Harry), Lord Raith (running the Walker summoning, and whose protection from magic in BR Harry compares to feeling Outsidery iirc), and Maggie (whom Eb confirms in BR was a companion of both the previous two, and which is also supported by Harry being born in a "complex set of circumstances" to give him starborn power; that seems more than an accident of birth alone, and Maggie is the obvious person to set it up; Elaine's age being six months different from Harry's rules out it just being the date or else the DV would have hundreds of thousands of starborn).
So if we work on the basis that the latter three were allied to bring a starborn into being, and later parted ways over other disagreements, everything we see of Justin fits together. He finds Harry in the orphanage system, where Harry is by all accounts pretty miserable. He sweeps in to offer Harry the sort of sales pitch that is bound to be wonderful with a miserable small boy who so far as we know is already into SF and Fantasy (am I right in Harry mentioning having seen Star Wars when it first came out, which puts that a couple of years before Justin?). "Come live with me and I will be your father-figure and incidentally, you're really a special wizard and I will train you," almost immediately after Harry has his first experience of magic (in that long-jump competition) so Harry knows something odd is going on with him, but not what.
Then when we see the training bit with Justin, it's harsh, it comes with punishments and rewards, and it's pushing an agenda of "working hard at this makes you better than other people and you don't want to be a person of less worth."
And we know where that ends up, from Harry's flashback in I think it is SK, of human sacrifice, chalices of blood, and naked Elaine.
Following which we have Harry convincing himself Elaine was enthralled, going in to rescue her, and Justin trying to enthrall him. Note that Harry mentions in the confirmed-true memory in GS that Elaine only sat like that when she had a specific sarcastic point to make, so we have direct confirmation that there are other explanations than her being enthralled at that point. And note also that Elaine spends more than half of SK successfully part of a conspiracy to lead Harry around by the nose and direct his attention so that he ends up going to the Mothers and grabbing the Unravelling, so she has the skills to get him to believe things that are not true.
I reckon what's going on there is that Justin, whether as part of a larger conspiracy or not (I believe so myself but it makes no difference to this line of reasoning) is trying to raise starborn who will work along with his nefarious scheme, whatever that may be. I believe Elaine is in line with that scheme and Harry isn't, and there may be some collusion in there of "I am going to try and enthrall the guy but in case it doesn't work make sure he thinks you're innocent, he's in love with you so that should be easy" going on in that GS memory.
Then when Harry resists the enthrallment, the question of how much effort it is worth to try bringing him back on board needs answering. Sending the Walker after him is total overkill if he is just a half-trained apprentice, but also is pretty guaranteed to dispose of him. On the other hand, if he is not a loose end but actually is a starborn, that will show up fighting a Walker in ways it would not fighting a common-or-garden demon. Win-win, unless your Walker does his bit to spin Harry on going back and finishing Justin off. At which point Elaine fakes her disappearance in ways that convinces Harry she is dead for the next ten years; it seems very unlikely to me that he never once tried to use magic to find her in that span, so that has to be deliberate on her part.
And the end result of that is the Harry we see in the first few books. Extremely paranoid about authority figures, convinced that keeping information to himself is the best way of keeping people safe, placing his own judgement above anyone else's regardless of whether they might be better informed or not, and with temptation after temptation to cause mayhem thrown in his way (the Three-Eye potion, the shapeshifter belts, and ultimately, getting the White Council into a war.)
The direct, and fairly predictable if you know the people involved, consequences of Harry killing Justin help build his character too. The Council find him, they put him on trial, the Merlin wants him dead because that is what you do with warlocks unless you want to risk another Kemmler or worse (I am not sure what "worse" is but I see no reason to think the Merlin is lying when he says in PG Harry has no idea how bad warlocks can get, knowing full well Harry was up to his eyes in Kemmlerites in the previous book), and Eb intervenes to save him because he feels he has a second chance after messing up with Maggie, and succeeds because as Blackstaff he has stated-in-so-many-words licence to ignore the will of the Council. And if any of that does not seem a particularly reliable deal there is always Peabody in there to fine-tune how things go. Which leaves Harry as we see him in SF spending a lot less time than any other wizard his age around the Council, thinking they are a hidebound bunch of big meanies who want his head on personal grounds, and not growing up enough to really get a handle on Morgan's reasons for being so anti-warlocks until their confrontation in DB. I think the whole arc of the books, and why the continuing narrative starts in SF rather than with Harry as Justin's apprentice, is that we are seeing the slow painful uneven process of him growing to have more tolerance and understanding of people who are not like him, from a start point of having been deliberately pushed a long way towards sociopathy, arrogance, and elitism.
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I agree that situation and choice made Harry one of the more reclusive members of the Council with obvious vindication from TC. As far as Elaine being a willing accomplice to Justin or a victim; I am uncertain.
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I agree that situation and choice made Harry one of the more reclusive members of the Council with obvious vindication from TC. As far as Elaine being a willing accomplice to Justin or a victim; I am uncertain.
In my opinion, whether she was fully enthralled or not isn't really relevant. Even if you remove that from the equation, I don't think that she could have been willing to go along with Justin, at least not fairly. She was abused and manipulated, threatened to be tossed back into the system that had made her miserable, and promised rewards, safety, companionship, and acceptance to go with Justin, all at the tender age of sixteen. Fear combined with a sense of obligation will change your perceived choices. In short, I don't think Elaine can ever be fairly described as a willing accomplice, regardless of magical influence, simply because her circumstances conspired specifically to eliminate or influence her will.
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She was abused and manipulated, threatened to be tossed back into the system that had made her miserable, and promised rewards, safety, companionship, and acceptance to go with Justin, all at the tender age of sixteen.
I don't recall any definite evidence that she was threatened or manipulated in that way; Harry tends to assume she was treated the same way he was but that isn't actually evidence.
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I don't recall any definite evidence that she was threatened or manipulated in that way; Harry tends to assume she was treated the same way he was but that isn't actually evidence.
There is enough evidence that she was enthralled anyway so that is enough for me.
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There is enough evidence that she was enthralled anyway so that is enough for me.
I'm of the opinion she's the reason for the insert about 'fine thralldom' in BR. She's been a victim of it for years and doesn't even know perhaps.
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Kumori is enthralled Elaine persona?
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There is enough evidence that she was enthralled anyway so that is enough for me.
What evidence ?
Harry's memory in GS explicitly textually calls out a potential in-character other reason for her to have been behaving the way she was there without enthralling being involved.
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What evidence ?
Harry's memory in GS explicitly textually calls out a potential in-character other reason for her to have been behaving the way she was there without enthralling being involved.
As theoretical possibility, not as most likely explanation. If one goes for what is remotely possible we are sure of nothing.
There are loads of circumstancial evidence supporting it to begin with the fact that Justin tried to do it with Harry who was also already loyal to Justin but apparently loyalty was not enough. We have no reason to disbelieve Elaines claim especially since she describes the mental after effects of entrallment much like Lucio did later.
Lea told Harry he had understood Justin perfectly. Harry and Elaine had soulgazed and they still had a spiritual connection in white night. Justin was a warlock who at that time probably thought breaking the law was a solution for everything.
There were really no reasons for Justin not to enthrall Elaine except for those reasons not to enthrall Harry. He had motive and opportunity and if Elaine was not enthralled he would have waited untill he could have handled Harry alone as he did with Elaine because he could never have been certain about her loyalty in those circumstances whatever she said, it would just have been an extra complication to avoid.
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Elaine often acts as if she is carrrying some emotional scarring and is nearly Harry's equal to resisting authority and control. It is hard to get a read on her. Sometimes, she seems to act like a rabbit trying to figure out which way to hop away and sometimes she has a cat chasing a mouse mood.
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Elaine often acts as if she is carrrying some emotional scarring and is nearly Harry's equal to resisting authority and control. It is hard to get a read on her. Sometimes, she seems to act like a rabbit trying to figure out which way to hop away and sometimes she has a cat chasing a mouse mood.
My interpretation of Elaine is that she had been used and abused by everyone around her—the orphanage system, Justin, and then Summer—for so long that she's pretty messed up by the time we see her in Summer Knight. Harry lucked out and managed to get to Ebenezer, someone who (though we find out later that he was a bit hypocritical about black magic) cared enough about him to let him make his own choices. I don't think Elaine was ever able to do anything strictly on her own until the end of Summer Knight (not counting her early adolescence, because we don't know anything about her until she's with Justin).
For me, her biggest tell is that the second she gets some real freedom, she models her life after Harry's, the closest thing she has to someone she trusts. Even though she apparently has a choice, she chooses the path someone else did.
Obviously, this goes out the window if you find out that she had hitched herself to Cowl's wagon, so to speak, and only opened up shop on the West Coast after fleeing the Darkhallow at the end of Dead Beat. Do we have a timeline for when she started advertising? (Also, how did she get her PI license? Is she licensed at all? It's a nightmare to get it here in New York—you basically need to be law enforcement first, like Vince Graver. Dresden himself apprenticed with Nick before he got his, so I'd imagine that it'd take at least a year of full time apprenticeship, which would kind of (unfortunately) fit the timeline of Dead Beat, plus one year for apprenticeship, plus one year until White Night, when Ramirez comments that he'd found her and tested her).
Anyway, I know a lot of people find Elaine to be shifty, but I don't, at least not specifically. I see her as someone who's had a really sad life and is trying to do the best she can moving forward.
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We have no reason to disbelieve Elaines claim especially since she describes the mental after effects of entrallment much like Lucio did later.
The reason we have to disbelieve her is that she spends two-thirds of SK misleading Harry, to point him at the Mothers so he will retrieve the Unravelling. And that so far the results of her actions have left her with the Paranet trusting her and working with her.
He had motive and opportunity and if Elaine was not enthralled he would have waited untill he could have handled Harry alone as he did with Elaine because he could never have been certain about her loyalty in those circumstances whatever she said,
Why on earth not ?
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The reason we have to disbelieve her is that she spends two-thirds of SK misleading Harry, to point him at the Mothers so he will retrieve the Unravelling. And that so far the results of her actions have left her with the Paranet trusting her and working with her.
She was in a very difficult place there and had a clear motive for what she was doing. Her working for Summer was no secret either. She did what was expected and helped Harry where it counted.
Harry had to get the unraveling anyway otherwise the mothers had not given it to him and the later misdirection was double layered, Harry was just dimm witted as usual.
After that she was not under the same pressure and in white night they had both grown a little. Harry in Summer Knight is still very immature with unrealistic expectations from people following with resentment. His story did not consider the difficulty of Elaines position which is ironic considering Harry’s later relation with Mab.
She simply had no motives for misdirection anymore.
Why on earth not ?
She was close to Harry, they had a relation and they had soulgazed. Justin could never know exactly how close so he could not predict how she would really react when he started his magic on Harry. That would make her a risk and risks are to be avoided if possible. It was possible to avoid that risk.
Either by arranging it that she was not there, as he did when he enthralled Elaine, or by enthralling Elaine first.
Harry could point to the day it happened with Elaine which was extra evidence.
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She simply had no motives for misdirection anymore. She was close to Harry, they had a relation and they had soulgazed. Justin could never know exactly how close so he could not predict how she would really react when he started his magic on Harry.
Ah, OK, I see the difference in where we are coming from now. I think.
Am I right in reading that you are coming from a position of them having a relationship as an independent thing, rather than a thing Justin was encouraging (if only by pretending not to see some of it) as one more method of urging them in the intended direction?
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Ah, OK, I see the difference in where we are coming from now. I think.
Am I right in reading that you are coming from a position of them having a relationship as an independent thing, rather than a thing Justin was encouraging (if only by pretending not to see some of it) as one more method of urging them in the intended direction?
Is does not matter that Justin was encouraging it the fact was that it was there. The feeling was mutual as was indicated by the soulgaze. Justin encouraged it and it was part of his plan but he had no way to know how strong the bond between Harry and Elaine was whatever Elaine or Harry told him. So he had no way to make certain how Elaine would react unless he enthralled her.
And it was easy for him to arrange the whole thing without Elaine being there. Elaines illness when he enthralled her was probably caused by Justin as well to keep her home when Harry was at school.
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I've always thought Elaine was super shifty/evil because pure power wise shes just under Dresden and control wise shes stronger than him. That makes her one of the most powerful wizards of Dresden generation and over the last 20 (30?) years we are suppost to believe shes done nothing but hide except for the 2 books were she worked against harry and a bit of paranet and detective stuff, Shes way to powerful to not have done much more than that.
also butcher put way to much back story into her to leave her as she is now.
she obviously didn't really care for Dresden since she actively hid from him and let him believe he killed her. Thats a really really F*$#ed up thing to do and she only revealed she wasn't dead when she had absolutely no choice in the matter. There would have been zero danger to her to tell him as soon as Dresden left Ebenezer farm. she knew dresden well enough to know he would die before betraying her.
I cant imagine any halfway decent person doing that and keeping it up for like 12 years.
In the books shes been in since it seems her first instinct is to manipulate Dresden into getting what she wants when she could have just asked him
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Preaching to the choir about Elaine.
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Preaching to the choir about Elaine.
A total failure in trying to look at the story from her point of view which is necessary to explain her actions.
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For the moment. Elaine's story exists in the grey with a big ole question mark. I feel strongly that she is Kumori. But, I have a suspicious nature and only at the conclusion of her life or the series will that question mark be removed.
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A total failure in trying to look at the story from her point of view which is necessary to explain her actions.
Why would we want to do that ?
If anything, I think the biggest problem I have with debating what's really going on in the DV is people being too attached to looking at things from specific points of view, particularly Harry's.
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Why would we want to do that ?
If anything, I think the biggest problem I have with debating what's really going on in the DV is people being too attached to looking at things from specific points of view, particularly Harry's.
It is called empathy and it is a valuable tool to get an understanding of someones motives. It is easy to feel empathy with the narrator so people believe him even if he is an unreliable narrator or in this case a yong somewhat egocentric adolescent. But if you want a better understanding of the motives of the other characters in the book you have to place yourself in their shoes.
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It is called empathy and it is a valuable tool to get an understanding of someones motives. It is easy to feel empathy with the narrator so people believe him even if he is an unreliable narrator or in this case a yong somewhat egocentric adolescent. But if you want a better understanding of the motives of the other characters in the book you have to place yourself in their shoes.
Aye. Or at least be able to take off the initial blinders, take one step to the side of the situation. Whether it be your own view point or the one your reading..
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Aye. Or at least be able to take off the initial blinders, take one step to the side of the situation. Whether it be your own view point or the one your reading..
It would be interesting to read a scene from the books not from Harry's perspective but from somebody else involved in that scene. That could be revealing.
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whats her side to compensate for what shes done?
as far as we know shes never broken any laws of magic (i vaguely recall some mistfiend thing but that was against Dresden and he didn't tell anyone)
so the council have no reason to kill her, she just hid while justin tried to kill dresden (probably) she had no real need to hide at all and as i said she is extremely powerful, shes not some battered wife with nowhere to turn.
she would have come across as a total victim and one with amazing potential. only a few of the most rabid anti warlock guys would have wanted her dead..... unless she had other reasons to want to hide
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whats her side to compensate for what shes done?
as far as we know shes never broken any laws of magic (i vaguely recall some mistfiend thing but that was against Dresden and he didn't tell anyone)
so the council have no reason to kill her, she just hid while justin tried to kill dresden (probably) she had no real need to hide at all and as i said she is extremely powerful, shes not some battered wife with nowhere to turn.
she would have come across as a total victim and one with amazing potential. only a few of the most rabid anti warlock guys would have wanted her dead..... unless she had other reasons to want to hide
When she hid from justin both Harry and Elaine were very young and Justin was a powerful wizard. Harry was just 16. Harry only got the courage to confront Justin after he made a deal with Lea but he did that because he thought he had no other option. Justin would follow him to the end of the earth. Elaine was not extremely powerful at that moment and there was no way she would even think she was able to handle Justin.
Adding to that she was enthralled which can influence a lot of things. There was a lot of fire and magic during the battle so she probably ran while everything was burning. She was 16 and homeless. She was not that strong in her magic yet and she did not know who was alive or not. If Justin's dead boke the enthrallment or not her mind was still messed up because of it.
And then came some Sidhe Lady with a deal. Harry could not make a good deal with Lea so I don't expect Elaine to make a good deal either.
These are not static characters and at that moment they were just children really.
“All the wishing in the world will not change the past, my godson,” Lea said. “You would like to believe that perhaps Justin had hidden good intentions of some sort. That what happened between you was some kind of misunderstanding. But you understood him perfectly.”
“Yeah. Probably. I’d forgotten how much it hurt—that’s all,” I said quietly. “I’d forgotten how much I loved him. How much I wanted him to be proud of me.”
“Children are vulnerable,” Lea said. “They are easily deceived and notoriously subject to such delusions. You are no longer a child.”
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It would be interesting to read a scene from the books not from Harry's perspective but from somebody else involved in that scene. That could be revealing.
Aren't we getting that with zoo story in Brief cases?
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Adding to that she was enthralled which can influence a lot of things.
We still don't know this.
And then came some Sidhe Lady with a deal. Harry could not make a good deal with Lea so I don't expect Elaine to make a good deal either.
Considering Lea's obligation to protect Harry by the terms of her deal with Maggie, as revealed in SK, I do wonder whether Harry effectively sold himself to Faerie for nothing (or rather, for something he already had, if he had known and demanded it).
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We still don't know this.
Russels teapot.
Considering Lea's obligation to protect Harry by the terms of her deal with Maggie, as revealed in SK, I do wonder whether Harry effectively sold himself to Faerie for nothing (or rather, for something he already had, if he had known and demanded it).
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Russels teapot.
Am not - I am neither short nor stout.
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Am not - I am neither short nor stout.
And I can absolutely not prove that you are not circling invisibly around mars.
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We still don't know this.
Considering Lea's obligation to protect Harry by the terms of her deal with Maggie, as revealed in SK, I do wonder whether Harry effectively sold himself to Faerie for nothing (or rather, for something he already had, if he had known and demanded it).
Lea was not obliged to helping him to confront Justin. Harry could have ran away and she could have given Ebenezar a message or just watched him until Justin ran into enough trouble to distract him from hunting Harry. Harry felt he had nowhere to hide but Lea could have assisted with that as well. The problem is we do bot know the exact words of Lea’s deal with Margaret.
Lea gave Harry the courage to do something he would never have done without her. She inspired him. That must be worth something otherwise I don’t think Lea could have made the deal.
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You're probably right on Lea's "magic feather" bit. But, hey, Harry was a teenager and teenagers do some pretty stupid things.
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You're probably right on Lea's "magic feather" bit.
I believe there is a WoJ that that was most, but not all, of what Lea provided Harry.
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Well, Lea often hints at things but in the most vaguest ways.
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Well, Lea often hints at things but in the most vaguest ways.
As is her nature .... or nurture? Maybe a bit of both? Or her Mantle? LOL
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I would say being coy is both a part of her nature and her personality; if that is possible.
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As is her nature .... or nurture? Maybe a bit of both? Or her Mantle? LOL
She does not have a mantle. Woj somewhere. Nurture would mean that you could have changed her nature in her youth which is more a human thing though humans can change her nature but that is not easy.
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Well, the Leahansidhe is about luring and entrapping creative minds, or so I recall. Being playful, mysterious, and buxom would do the trick.
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Well, the Leahansidhe is about luring and entrapping creative minds, or so I recall. Being playful, mysterious, and buxom would do the trick.
Absolutely.
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As is her nature .... or nurture? Maybe a bit of both? Or her Mantle? LOL
I don't think Lea has a mantle.
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She does not have a mantle. Woj somewhere. Nurture would mean that you could have changed her nature in her youth which is more a human thing though humans can change her nature but that is not easy.
I'm sure you could have some effect on Lea or a Sidhe with a different upbringing. I don't believe that the Sidhe are automatons. But you'd probably have far less effect with a different upbringing than you would with a human. You might not be able to change anything but the fine details.
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I'm sure you could have some effect on Lea or a Sidhe with a different upbringing. I don't believe that the Sidhe are automatons. But you'd probably have far less effect with a different upbringing than you would with a human. You might not be able to change anything but the fine details.
Sounds logical though you should always be carefull with applying logic to the concept of free will :)
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I sometimes feel that free will has a stronger connection to emotions than reason.
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I sometimes feel that free will has a stronger connection to emotions than reason.
SPLURG! ...... I just threw up lol, jk. Depends on the emotion in my opinion. Jim's free will isn't that much different than an advanced psychobabble(the babble part being the mix of older theologics combined into it) approach I think. Where in negative consuming emotions come from the shadow and constitutes a process that happens to you, which you can then make a choice from, vs 'higher' emotions such as Love or Faith which constitutes a continuing choice to 'feel' such things.(Butters and how Murphy tells him to make a choice before he becomes KotC is a perfect example actually)
Bottom line to me, those higher emotions are connected to the superego/ source of creation and the negative ones from the shadow/subconscious. Which directly aligns with my theory on Nemesis and Lucifers old role.
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You have a most unusual nature, jonas.
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You have a most unusual nature, jonas.
Thank you. Though I admit emotions tend to drive actions, I hate the idea emotions are choices over something that happens to you. I don't choose to feel the way I feel a lot, and fight against it constantly it seems...
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Emotions and reason are not inherently wrong. Though letting one have dominion over the rest may be problematic.
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Emotions and reason are not inherently wrong. Though letting one have dominion over the rest may be problematic.
Problem with the Fae Courts in a nutshell.