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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Hagbard Celine on August 25, 2020, 02:00:50 AM
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Something struck me in the scene where Harry summons Molly in order to get her to craft the doppelganger ring for him.
"Hah!" she said, grinning. Then her expression sobered. "I've done some work like it lately..."
Did she make some sort of shapeshifting or doppelganger magic item in a short story or something that I missed? Or is there someone else running around Peace Talks while not currently in their body and/or shapeshifted/altered?
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Oooh! Great pick up!
Of course Jim would introduce such a tool to play a sucker punch. The question is who, and why, and why Molly had to do it?
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If Mab knew that Ethnui would start a fight at the peace talks then it could be for Mab? Winter must have expected the Fomors to betray them in some form, so having Mab secure by her only being present via dobbleganger would be one way to reduce the risk significantly.
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If Mab knew that Ethnui would start a fight at the peace talks then it could be for Mab? Winter must have expected the Fomors to betray them in some form, so having Mab secure by her only being present via dobbleganger would be one way to reduce the risk significantly.
Yeah, it would be a kicker if the Mab that Ethnui thought she had shoved through several walls, was merely a dobbleganger.
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There is no need for a similar ring for either Mab or Molly as both are immortal. It requires magic to work this so unless there is an external power source, it is required for a practitioner. The only other practitioner Mab is on good terms with is Rashid. Rashid hasn’t appeared yet in Peace Talks, if he appears in Battle Ground, could it be via Doppleganger allowing him to be both at the Outer Gates AND at the Senior Council voting on Harry? The Outer Gates are far even for the GateKeeper and Mab likes her forward planning.
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If Mab knew that Ethnui would start a fight at the peace talks then it could be for Mab? Winter must have expected the Fomors to betray them in some form, so having Mab secure by her only being present via dobbleganger would be one way to reduce the risk significantly.
I like this. A lot.
Added bonus: The Outsiders staged a massive attack at the Outer Gates, thinking Mab was pinned down in Chicago dealing with Ethniu (and couldn't leave without risking the Accords falling apart), but Surprise! She's actually right there at the Gates ready to beat them down.
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How about... it was given to Lara Raith, she used it to send a doppelganger of Thomas to attack the Svartalves, but Thomas was too close so got caught in the crossfire.
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There is no need for a similar ring for either Mab or Molly as both are immortal. It requires magic to work this so unless there is an external power source, it is required for a practitioner. The only other practitioner Mab is on good terms with is Rashid. Rashid hasn’t appeared yet in Peace Talks, if he appears in Battle Ground, could it be via Doppleganger allowing him to be both at the Outer Gates AND at the Senior Council voting on Harry? The Outer Gates are far even for the GateKeeper and Mab likes her forward planning.
In the long term it probably wouldn't matter - they are immortal and would come back. But Bob implies that pulling themselves back together is something that takes a reasonable amount of time, months or years. Normally that probably wouldn't be an issue - to the point no one would bother to try.
But I suspect time is rapidly becoming something that is in short supply. "Killing" an immortal, even temporarily, might be useful if events are moving fast enough that mere months or years might make the difference to any number of schemes. Such as the end of the world starting to ramp up.
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If Mab knew that Ethnui would start a fight at the peace talks then it could be for Mab? Winter must have expected the Fomors to betray them in some form, so having Mab secure by her only being present via dobbleganger would be one way to reduce the risk significantly.
Except do you really think Ethniu would have been fooled? And why would Molly need to create the doppleganger ring for Mab (Mab could easily do it herself)? Not to mention, after that assault wouldn't the doppelganger have been destroyed. If Mab had been "destroyed" I would be more inclined to believe this theory. But as it stands, I don't think this is the case.
Also, I don't think anyone even thought Ethniu was coming to the Peace Talks. They were expecting the Fomor lead by King Corb. The whole point is that those who were thought forgotten, defeated, banished etc are with the Fomor - and Ethniu had long been forgotten.
*Sidenote: Ethniu was such a bizarre choice as far as the current novel goes. She is hardly significant in terms of the pantheon of the Fomor. However, I do believe that there are reasons Jim chose her beyond "surprise minor character is actually big bad".
Back to the topic. Rashid seems like a good candidate...but I don't think he would need Molly either.
Whoever Molly created the similar doppleganger item for, they would need to be not as magically powerful AND skillful as Molly, they would have a sudden need for the item, and they would need to have some fairly okay relationship with Winter (if not Molly) and they would also have had to have a reason to pick Winter and Molly specifically (there are plenty of other beings that could probably do this magic).
SO - Who does that leave? Thomas would have been good (thanks Avernite) but I doubt Demonreach would have been fooled. Austri or Etri perhaps? They were/are on good terms with Molly and Winter. But considering Svartalves propensity for creating incredible magical artifacts...it also doesn't add up.
Justine perhaps - if Thomas was trying to keep her safe. But where would he get the idea? Does he even know such things can be done?
Marcone has the same issue - knowledge. Not to mention, why do it? And why not use Monoc Securities?
I doubt any of the Knights of the Cross would bother either.
So my only guess left is that maybe Molly did it for her own troops. Perhaps to misdirect enemies and convince observers that there is a large force somewhere it isn't, while the real force gets in position.
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How about... it was given to Lara Raith, she used it to send a doppelganger of Thomas to attack the Svartalves, but Thomas was too close so got caught in the crossfire.
What wasdid she get for the first favor? And is Lara the doppleganger?
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Molly doesn't say she has made a doppelganger ring lately, she says she has done some work like it lately...
An item that lets you create and control an illusion would be like it, regardless of what that illusion was. But she could also be talking about an invisibility ring, or a scrying item, or some other partial match. It doesn't have to create an illusion, much less one of yourself.
A magic item that makes a bomb look like a bunch of flowers might even qualify, especially if you activate it by dropping it on the bomb (or other item you want to look like flowers).
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It may be in a short story yet to be published or even written.
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Except do you really think Ethniu would have been fooled? And why would Molly need to create the doppleganger ring for Mab (Mab could easily do it herself)? Not to mention, after that assault wouldn't the doppelganger have been destroyed. If Mab had been "destroyed" I would be more inclined to believe this theory. But as it stands, I don't think this is the case.
She isn't a wizard, even if she is the Winter Queen. If Mab made it Ethniu might be able to detect it or there was the fear. I'd think that Harry could make one, but he was pretty busy, Mab may have been also.
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*Sidenote: Ethniu was such a bizarre choice as far as the current novel goes. She is hardly significant in terms of the pantheon of the Fomor. However, I do believe that there are reasons Jim chose her beyond "surprise minor character is actually big bad".
I think the idea is that Balor is dead (killed by Lugh, as in mythology) and Ethniu is his heir.
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There are lots of possibilities. Harry's ring didn't just create a duplicate, it let him work magic through his constructed self, projecting his consciousness into it. So it's not merely an illusion, it's the ability to create a sock puppet construct that you can act through.
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Marcone could be candidate. It is a very handy thing to have. Yes he could get it from Monoc, bit it is expensive and he might have some winter favours.
I still think Mab is a good choice though. They seem too little prepared for Fomor treachery considering Leas comments in Bombshells about treachery behind the nature of the Fomor
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You know, I don't think the comment was referring to what she has made, rather that she has been doing more wizard magic than WL magic
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I've re-read the passage several times, and it really does seem like she's referring to specifically *that* kind of magic item. I suppose it doesn't matter...until it does. Lol.
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She isn't a wizard, even if she is the Winter Queen. If Mab made it Ethniu might be able to detect it or there was the fear. I'd think that Harry could make one, but he was pretty busy, Mab may have been also.
What does Mab being a wizard or not have to do with it? Besides, if she is Nimue or Morgana (as is implied) then she likely is. Wizard or not, she could easily do what Molly did. Probably better. She is a demigod.
Perhaps she could have fooled Ethniu herself, but it was Molly who supposedly created a similar item. But I doubt Ethniu could have been fooled. Her power is an order of magnitude above Mab.
Also I see no reason for Mab to even use such an item. She was as surprised as anyone by Ethniu's appearance. That wasn't an act. Ferrovax and Vadderung were equally surprised. As far as they were all concerned, they were not expecting such an assault. Else wouldn't they have placed a trap and caught Ethniu out? No, Mab got her real ass handed to her. Mab isn't omniscient and even she can get outfoxed.
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Mab baited a trap for rabbit and got a Fox.
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Mab baited a trap for rabbit and got a Fox.
More like a mountain lion.... Mab keeps her hands clean, so it is better to have her Lady make the ring, plausible deniability... Very important in diplomatic talks of any kind.
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Mab baited a trap for rabbit and got a Fox.
Yeah, I agree. Lea says the Fomor are betrayers in "Bombshells", and if Lea knows that, Mab must.
But Mab was expecting something notably smaller-scale, not a Titan able to take her on personally.
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Mab got a bear.
But I will say this - there will be some other play behind the scenes. I don't know if Mab will come off better or worse for it, but we do know she is standing after the battle.
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Mab got a bear.
But I will say this - there will be some other play behind the scenes. I don't know if Mab will come off better or worse for it, but we do know she is standing after the battle.
Yup, but we don't know yet the price that was paid.. Hints from Christmas Eve lists, Harry, Molly, Mab, Michael, Sarrissa, Michael's family, little Maggie, Mouse, and Kringle all surviving the battle, and that vanilla mortals paid a huge price. That is all we know.
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We also don’t know Thomas ultimate fate, he might be inprisoned, he might not, but I find it significant it is Harry’s memory of his father that is centre stage. There is a theory on Reddit that Eb killed Malcolm as Malcom couldn’t defend Harry and that Eb needed him out of the way to make Harry vanish into the Foster system, based on Journal and Ch 4 of PT. I give this credence, Margaret rebelled against Eb when he was training her to replace him as Blackstaff. I think Morgan promised her to protect Harry.....from Eb doing exactly the same to Harry. The realisation of what Eb wants for Maggie and Eb’s apparent willingness to kill (the doppleganger) Harry means that Harry consciously realises that Eb broke the first law to kill his father and put him through the foster system. He may have subconsciously realised this as far back as Dead Beat and the dream sequence with Malcom. The Jabberwocky was Eb. Harry’s subconscious is way faster on the uptake than Harry.
This is what has Harry depressed on Christmas Eve, we have foreshadowing in ‘will granpa come for Christmas’ in ch4 PT. Harry asked for the ring after his confrontation with Eb, and I think it was for this conflict which Harry which he foresaw the need. He told Eb he would kill him if he tried this with Maggie, Harry was deadly serious. I think on Christmas Eve Eb is in Demonreach, and Harry doesn’t feel at all guilty about that.
This makes Eb as a possible reason for Thomas attack on Etri more likely, to force Harry to see things his way. I don’t however think that Eb is Nemfected or Black Council, merely an abusive controlling asshole who can’t admit he is ever wrong, and has because of his power and status got away with it for centuries. He abused Harry and Margaret, in the name of his love for them.
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We also don’t know Thomas ultimate fate, he might be inprisoned, he might not, but I find it significant it is Harry’s memory of his father that is centre stage. There is a theory on Reddit that Eb killed Malcolm as Malcom couldn’t defend Harry and that Eb needed him out of the way to make Harry vanish into the Foster system, based on Journal and Ch 4 of PT. I give this credence, Margaret rebelled against Eb when he was training her to replace him as Blackstaff. I think Morgan promised her to protect Harry.....from Eb doing exactly the same to Harry. The realisation of what Eb wants for Maggie and Eb’s apparent willingness to kill (the doppleganger) Harry means that Harry consciously realises that Eb broke the first law to kill his father and put him through the foster system. He may have subconsciously realised this as far back as Dead Beat and the dream sequence with Malcom. The Jabberwocky was Eb. Harry’s subconscious is way faster on the uptake than Harry.
This is what has Harry depressed on Christmas Eve, we have foreshadowing in ‘will granpa come for Christmas’ in ch4 PT. Harry asked for the ring after his confrontation with Eb, and I think it was for this conflict which Harry which he foresaw the need. He told Eb he would kill him if he tried this with Maggie, Harry was deadly serious. I think on Christmas Eve Eb is in Demonreach, and Harry doesn’t feel at all guilty about that.
This makes Eb as a possible reason for Thomas attack on Etri more likely, to force Harry to see things his way. I don’t however think that Eb is Nemfected or Black Council, merely an abusive controlling asshole who can’t admit he is ever wrong, and has because of his power and status got away with it for centuries. He abused Harry and Margaret, in the name of his love for them.
There was nothing willing about Harry jarring him into setting off the boom prematurely by jumping at him. He was homicidal in that bit but not deliberately aimed at Harry.
“Ach, God,” the old man whispered, his breath creaking.
His staff clattered to the dock. It sounded like it came from very far away.
“Harry?” he said. “Harry?”
His face appeared at the end of a little black tunnel.
“Oh, lad,” he said, tears in his eyes. “Oh, lad. Didn’t think you were going to come at me again. Didn’t think it would trigger.”
I could feel his hands on my face, distantly.
“That’s why you were so big on teaching me control,” I slurred dully. “You’re barely holding it together yourself.”
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There was nothing willing about Harry jarring him into setting off the boom prematurely by jumping at him. He was homicidal in that bit but not deliberately aimed at Harry.
Which screams that there is something very wrong with Eb, he doesn't lose control like that. Now he may decide to get back at you by dropping a satellite on your head like he did Ortega for trying to kill his grandson by cheating in a duel, but that was done with a cool head.
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Which screams that there is something very wrong with Eb, he doesn't lose control like that.
Yeah. Though it might not be anything supernatural; River Shoulders says a lot of older wizards are running out of time. Maybe Eb's just losing focus/control/etc because of age.
I think that's part of why Harry is so devastated -- not only that Eb lost control and would have killed him, but that Eb basically can't be trusted anymore, which (as Blackstaff) probably means he's going to have to die... he probably wouldn't agree to retire at this point.
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Retirement is an option, to a specialist elder care home called Demonreach. Of course most of the other elders are Elder Gods.....
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Which screams that there is something very wrong with Eb, he doesn't lose control like that. Now he may decide to get back at you by dropping a satellite on your head like he did Ortega for trying to kill his grandson by cheating in a duel, but that was done with a cool head.
Yeah. Though it might not be anything supernatural; River Shoulders says a lot of older wizards are running out of time. Maybe Eb's just losing focus/control/etc because of age.
I think that's part of why Harry is so devastated -- not only that Eb lost control and would have killed him, but that Eb basically can't be trusted anymore, which (as Blackstaff) probably means he's going to have to die... he probably wouldn't agree to retire at this point.
The loss of control is because he's basically Harry except with ghouls swapped out for vampires and there's the whole fear of history repeating that's driving him to desperation(Harry living with loved ones openly and Harry seeming way too close with the white court managed to hammer him with two in a few days) as Harry is in danger of being voted out. Might even have a bit more trauma from actually fighting the war against the Fomor to keep him wound up in general.
Retirement is an option, to a specialist elder care home called Demonreach. Of course most of the other elders are Elder Gods.....
As Harry points out with Thomas that's really a fate worse than death sort of thing especially for someone like Eb who has a whole lot of blood on his hands.
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Yeah. Though it might not be anything supernatural; River Shoulders says a lot of older wizards are running out of time. Maybe Eb's just losing focus/control/etc because of age.
I think that's part of why Harry is so devastated -- not only that Eb lost control and would have killed him, but that Eb basically can't be trusted anymore, which (as Blackstaff) probably means he's going to have to die... he probably wouldn't agree to retire at this point.
No, I don't mean he is Nem infected.. Dementia comes to mind, paranoia is one of the symptoms. Now Eb may have good reason to be, but even so, the way he approached Harry about the idea was totally off.
The loss of control is because he's basically Harry except with ghouls swapped out for vampires and there's the whole fear of history repeating that's driving him to desperation(Harry living with loved ones openly and Harry seeming way too close with the white court managed to hammer him with two in a few days) as Harry is in danger of being voted out. Might even have a bit more trauma from actually fighting the war against the Fomor to keep him wound up in general.
Harry was still a relatively young wizard when he reacted the way he did to the ghouls who did terrible things to the young teen wardens they killed. Harry was still having control issues at that time on a number of levels, that is a recurring theme in the earlier books, Harry's inability to control his emotions and by extension, his power. What should be flick up bicus becomes KABOOM! Because Harry was pissed at the time he did it. Also having a Fallen Angel dancing around in his head pushing buttons didn't help. When he made the reference, Eb didn't know, doesn't know about Lasciel.
For Eb on the other hand, loss of control is unforgivable. As Blackstaff he is the most under control of all, yet he totally lost it with Harry. That, more than even the possibility that he had killed his grandson horrified him. I doubt he will recover.
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Eb isn’t afraid history is repeating itself, he is forcing it to. He held Margaret away to ‘Protect’ her then alienated her by forcing his views on her.
He then did the same with Harry, up to and possibly murdering Malcolm who couldn’t ‘protect’ Harry and making him disappear into the Foster system. He then alienates Harry over Whamps.
He now threatens the same over Maggie.
Harry is quite correct, Eb has made mistakes and refuses to learn from them, instead repeating them.
“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” Albert Einstein.
By this definition Eb is insane, Harry has seen this pattern. Eb is a Warlock, breaking the Laws of Magic for his personal ends, not in his role as Blackstaff.
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Just thought, Molly probably created a set of doppelgängers of her family for the Redcap and the security detail to employ as decoys. If she wanted to twist the knife, the Redcap gets to be little Harry.
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By this definition Eb is insane, Harry has seen this pattern. Eb is a Warlock, breaking the Laws of Magic for his personal ends, not in his role as Blackstaff.
Or he is suffering from wizard dementia.. He might also be a political hardliner as far White Council politics go, which possibly account for his appointment as Blackstaff. Hardliners tend to be pretty inflexible in their beliefs, if this holds true for wizards, Eb isn't insane, he just has a belief and is sticking to it no matter the evidence to the contrary. The difference is the Eb of the past that we all know and love has kept his personal beliefs in check when wielding the Blackstaff.. If he really is suffering from dementia, he may not longer be able to do this. That is very dangerous indeed.
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Yeah dementia could absolutely be a factor, given what River Shoulders says about most of the older wizards coming to the end of their time.
Hardliners tend to be pretty inflexible in their beliefs, if this holds true for wizards, Eb isn't insane, he just has a belief and is sticking to it no matter the evidence to the contrary.
I'm not sure it's really the political aspect (I mean he's generally not a political ally of the Merlin, as I understand it).
It might be more that he's devoted his life to the White Council and done so many terrible things for it; perhaps that's why Harry being kicked off the Council is such a crisis to him.
I'm not sure Harry really needs the White Council at this point; he's Winter Knight and Warden of Demonreach and (at least if he can save Thomas) has a family connection to the ruling house of the White Court. He's not going to be an outcast even without the Council.
But Eb doesn't see it that way.
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Peace Talks chapter 32 :
“Oh, lad,” he said, tears in his eyes. “Oh, lad. Didn’t think you were going to come at me again. Didn’t think it would trigger.”
What would trigger? The loaded staff? He misjudged his control once the staff was loaded. He didn't aim at Harry first, but turned and the staff triggered accidentally.
This pain, though. This hurt him. This broke him. He bowed his head. His tears fell to the dock. Then he paused. Then his expression changed. He looked up at me. His eyes widened, and then his face twisted into rage and disbelief. “Why, you sneaky—” “Good talk,” I said, “Wizard McCoy.” And I let go of the Winter glamour Lady Molly had crafted for me.
I'm not sure what will come next. Is he just pissed at the moment? Will he have had time to cool off? We will know soon.
I think for Eb this is the final revelation that he has to find someone else to take over the Blackstaff. And I don't think he will choose Harry. But who else could he give it to, if he can give it away at all. Maybe the former holder has to die.
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Eb has transitioned from “Sir”, to “Wizard McCoy”, Harry doesn’t believe he now needs to show Eb any deference, either as a former Master or as his grandfather. That is twisting the Athame, it indicates a permanent break between the two.
Margaret was being trained as his replacement, she rebelled, Harry wouldn’t accept it other than pass it to Mother Winter, which would get him a favour, just when he needs one for Thomas.
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Margaret was being trained as his replacement, she rebelled, Harry wouldn’t accept it other than pass it to Mother Winter, which would get him a favour, just when he needs one for Thomas.
I don't think Harry knows about the Blackstaff being MW's Walking Stick, does he? I don't think that's actually been confirmed in the books (though it seems to be a pretty unavoidable conclusion).
And Harry wouldn't *want* to pick up the Blackstaff, but it would depend on the situation and his other options. He's drawn on other dark sources when it seemed necessary to avoid something worse (using the hexenwolf belt in FM, accepting Lash's help and using "gray" necromancy in DB, becoming Winter Knight, etc.)
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Harry won’t kill Warlocks, he won’t accept the Blackstaff.
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Harry would be okay with killing warlocks in battle if they can't be captured. It's executing them he has a problem with. And he's got the solution: Demonreach.
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Exactly, he won’t be an executioner, he won’t be an assassin.
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Exactly, he won’t be an executioner, he won’t be an assassin.
However that doesn't mean he cannot be effective in that role.
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Oh, I definitely don't think Harry will fill the White Council role of Blackstaff. Yeah, he's never going to be the Council's assassin.
But he might pick up and use the physical item, at least for one battle, if the need was great enough. I'm not sure exactly what it does beyond preventing Lawbreaking corruption, if anything (IIRC the WOJs on this have been a bit vague, saying that's "mostly" what it does, implying it can do something else) but if it's something like Death's Scythe it might be usable against a Fomor and Fomor-minion army.
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Harry has better allies and weapons, he doesn’t need the Blackstaff
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Harry has better allies and weapons, he doesn’t need the Blackstaff
Quite possibly not... but something would have to happen to it if Eb died. Even if Harry just returns it to Mother Winter, that could lead to conflict with the Council.
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I'm not sure I agree with this whole 'Something is wrong with Eb' line of thinking.
The text is quite clear in that Harry just put him on a pedestal (as he does to all his heroes) and was hurt when his impossible expectations weren't met. Ebeneezer isn't Superman. He is just an angry old man who has lived longer than people are probably meant to, born and forged in a much harsher and more violent world. By Harry's standards Eb is crazy and violent. But he isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of things.
I think the whole bit about how most people aren't truly good or evil, Angels only notice the absolute etc. speaks to this. Eb isn't truly bad. He is just very, very grey. Grey Council, Grey Cloak before that.
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I'm not sure I agree with this whole 'Something is wrong with Eb' line of thinking.
The text is quite clear in that Harry just put him on a pedestal (as he does to all his heroes) and was hurt when his impossible expectations weren't met. Ebeneezer isn't Superman. He is just an angry old man who has lived longer than people are probably meant to, born and forged in a much harsher and more violent world. By Harry's standards Eb is crazy and violent. But he isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of things.
I think the whole bit about how most people aren't truly good or evil, Angels only notice the absolute etc. speaks to this. Eb isn't truly bad. He is just very, very grey. Grey Council, Grey Cloak before that.
Eb hasn't been on a pedestal as far as Harry is concerned for some time now, ever since Blood Rites when he found out that Eb was the White Council's assassin. He and Eb made peace with one another, it took a while to do it. They could work together, and things got better for a while after Harry found out that Eb was his grandfather. However make no mistake, Harry has issues that have not been resolved about his childhood and his grandfather's neglect, not just of him but apparently his mother as well. That all came out on the playground at the embassy, nothing was resolved, the anger is still there.
I'd say that when he found out part of the truth in Blood Rites Harry regarded Eb as perhaps a bit of a hypocrite. At that point in his life Harry couldn't see that someone could both be a person of integrity as he thought Eb was, and someone who had a "license to kill with magic." Eventually he learned to live with that, then he found out Eb was his grandfather. That is a good thing. However the mistake that Eb is making is now, is he thinks he can take the liberties of a grandfather, giving advice, even when not asked for. In Harry's mind, Eb hasn't earned that right, it might be a while before he does, it may never happen.
Events have moved along, Eb may have good reason to have his fears for Harry, but he is going about it the wrong way. There may not have been time to go about it any way other than the one he did, but it was destined to backfire. Or like many with dementia, Eb has lost the ability to restrain himself emotionally, that is very dangerous for someone with a license to kill with magic.
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They White Council stole the Black Staff in the first place. If mortal laws apply, they have no right to it, unlike the superweapons and diamonds, the owner (Hades) permitted their removal, Harry is the legal owner. If anyone wants to dispute Hades right dispose of them to Harry, they would have to serve proceedings on Hades in his domain. Very much service out of jurisdiction. Eb would be subject to US law and The White Council subject to Scottish Law, all Mother Winter needs is a lawyer. Perhaps the creation of a new Mantle, The Winter Lawyer? But where would you find a feral lawyer to take up the Mantle? Pretty much anywhere.
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They White Council stole the Black Staff in the first place. If mortal laws apply, they have no right to it, unlike the superweapons and diamonds, the owner (Hades) permitted their removal, Harry is the legal owner. If anyone wants to dispute Hades right dispose of them to Harry, they would have to serve proceedings on Hades in his domain. Very much service out of jurisdiction. Eb would be subject to US law and The White Council subject to Scottish Law, all Mother Winter needs is a lawyer. Perhaps the creation of a new Mantle, The Winter Lawyer? But where would you find a feral lawyer to take up the Mantle? Pretty much anywhere.
Lot of assumptions here.
We know that she lost her walking stick, and per WoJ that was related to the Battle of Stamford Bridge.
1) Doesn't mean the Council took it themselves
2) Right of conquest can come into play there
3) This is potentially Norwegian law circa 1000 AD in play, and/or Saxon law- it was taken from Norwegians by Saxons prior to the conquering of the latter kingdom by the Normans. Good luck finding a mortal lawyer for that, or even a court system.
4) The fact Mother Winter "lost" her walking stick doesn't mean it was stolen. Lost <=> stolen.
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The fact Mother Winter "lost" her walking stick doesn't mean it was stolen. Lost <=> stolen.
Very true, she may have even given it away or loaned it.
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Quite possibly not... but something would have to happen to it if Eb died. Even if Harry just returns it to Mother Winter, that could lead to conflict with the Council.
Quite possibly the Senior Council only. Would the Council at large want a one man Death Squad who need answer to no one running around? Who might one day decide that they were a problem?
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The Senior Council can take it up with Mother Winter.
Besides Harry has a near complete superweapons arsenal at his disposal.
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Eb would be subject to US law and The White Council subject to Scottish Law, all Mother Winter needs is a lawyer. Perhaps the creation of a new Mantle, The Winter Lawyer? But where would you find a feral lawyer to take up the Mantle? Pretty much anywhere.
They don't actually need a mortal lawyer to act for them. Per WOJ, Mab is accredited.
The problem with suing the Council to return the blackstaff isn't legal representation. The problems are admitting any of the facts into evidence, and that the Council wouldn't recognize a mortal court's jurisdiction. Eb seems to keep the staff somewhere non-physical until he pulls it out of empty air to use. Even if Mab did sue them, they can just say "What stick, what white council? Your honour, the plaintiff is clearly delusional!".
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Lot of assumptions here.
We know that she lost her walking stick, and per WoJ that was related to the Battle of Stamford Bridge.
Wait, really? I thought the quote was something about "Celtic Lore circa 1065 AD".
Battle of Stamford Bridge was England vs Norway... both of which are Germanic, not Celtic (England of this era was Anglo-Saxon).
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_banner
Closest fit I've seen anyone drag up.
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The Battle of Stamford bridge was 1066 when Mab rode with William the Conqueror, she must have been complicit in stealing the walking stick with the White Council.
There really isn’t any wizards associated with this era, they all tend to be much earlier or a little later, however Michael Scotus/Scot is the first notable wizard after that date 1175 – c. 1232 but these dates are approximations, his birth and death are unknowns. If a genuine White Court Wizard he easily could have been knocking around much earlier in 1066 or before, been Bob’s father and nabbed the Blackstaff with Mab. He would have to be the British Prisoner though to qualify.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_banner
Closest fit I've seen anyone drag up.
Yeah, I remember this being discussed years ago... but it's not Celtic, it's Norse.
The Battle of Stamford bridge was 1066 when Mab rode with William the Conqueror, she must have been complicit in stealing the walking stick with the White Council.
Stamford Bridge was England vs Norway, William the Conqueror (Normans) wasn't in that battle (though it's very close in time).
And something is seriously iffy with the timeline here. King Corb says "I remember your pimply face when you rode with the Conqueror", but surely the immortal Winter Lady wouldn't have pimples? Yet there's no way Mab was still mortal in 1066...
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Unless she was like Molly...and had only recently become a Winter Lady. She might not have been in that position long.
I think if Winter really wanted their stick back, they would get it back. I think the truth is that there was a deal struck and to a being as old as Mother Winter, it probably hasn't really been that long. Doesn't meant she wouldn't like it back either.
Eb hasn't been on a pedestal as far as Harry is concerned for some time now, ever since Blood Rites when he found out that Eb was the White Council's assassin. He and Eb made peace with one another, it took a while to do it. They could work together, and things got better for a while after Harry found out that Eb was his grandfather. However make no mistake, Harry has issues that have not been resolved about his childhood and his grandfather's neglect, not just of him but apparently his mother as well. That all came out on the playground at the embassy, nothing was resolved, the anger is still there.
I'd say that when he found out part of the truth in Blood Rites Harry regarded Eb as perhaps a bit of a hypocrite. At that point in his life Harry couldn't see that someone could both be a person of integrity as he thought Eb was, and someone who had a "license to kill with magic." Eventually he learned to live with that, then he found out Eb was his grandfather. That is a good thing. However the mistake that Eb is making is now, is he thinks he can take the liberties of a grandfather, giving advice, even when not asked for. In Harry's mind, Eb hasn't earned that right, it might be a while before he does, it may never happen.
Events have moved along, Eb may have good reason to have his fears for Harry, but he is going about it the wrong way. There may not have been time to go about it any way other than the one he did, but it was destined to backfire. Or like many with dementia, Eb has lost the ability to restrain himself emotionally, that is very dangerous for someone with a license to kill with magic.
He might have been mad at Eb but ultimately he eventually accepted him as a good man still, despite his reservations. He didn't realise that Eb wasn't merely morally grey, but also an incredibly savage and violent man at times. He hadn't really seen that side of him. Harry realised that is how he looks sometimes from the outside too. But it surprised him that Eb didn't have excellent self-control, because he assumed that Eb did (partially because he was meant to be older and wiser, and partially because he expected a Senior Council wizard and Blackstaff to handle his emotions better). But Ebeneezer is only a man, only human. Harry just keeps learning the hard way.
I entirely disagree that Eb hasn't earned the right to give advice. He did LONG before Harry knew about their family relationship. He was Harry's mentor and teacher, he more than earned the right. Not to mention, Harry seems to be fine with this by and large, unless of course it goes against what Harry wants. Harry is only human himself. But Harry is learning when to heed advice and when not to. He has mostly improved a lot in this. But he still has some way to go.
I respect you think Eb is going about convincing Harry the wrong way. That's a fair call. But Harry is notoriously stubborn and difficult to convince. And you might remember that one of Harry's main regrets in Christmas Eve was how arrogant he is during Peace Talks and Battle Ground (and how much it cost). I think Eb is just probably the wrong person to convince Harry altogether. Eb would probably better getting someone else to make his argument for him. Like Murphy or Michael. Assuming they agreed.
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He might have been mad at Eb but ultimately he eventually accepted him as a good man still, despite his reservations. He didn't realise that Eb wasn't merely morally grey, but also an incredibly savage and violent man at times. He hadn't really seen that side of him. Harry realised that is how he looks sometimes from the outside too. But it surprised him that Eb didn't have excellent self-control, because he assumed that Eb did (partially because he was meant to be older and wiser, and partially because he expected a Senior Council wizard and Blackstaff to handle his emotions better). But Ebeneezer is only a man, only human. Harry just keeps learning the hard way.
However he did see it coming, that is why he had Molly make the ring for him. Harry knew, as strong as he is, even with the Winter Knight's mantle, he was no match for Eb pound for pound. He also knew that where Eb was at emotionally, he couldn't be reasoned with safely. And he was right, if it had been him instead of a double of him, he'd be dead. After the fact, to Eb's shock and horror he realized he was out of control, not a good place for the Blackstaff. It hurt, but Harry knew how it would go down, so he had his double fight Eb. There was no time for anything else, Eb couldn't be reasoned with, and yes, Harry still loves him, but Harry also loves Thomas, and meantime the world is going to hell in a hand basket. As Warden of Demonreach, Harry was in a position to at least keep Thomas safe for the moment and at the same time satisfy diplomatic and justice demands. Eb had reached a point where there was no explaining that to him. Which brings us back to family dynamics, Harry and Eb cannot communicate here because both had been withholding the truth from one another for too many years.
Harry loves Thomas, he knows he is a vampire, but he is also his brother. Eb hates vampires, perhaps with good reason, so he thinks a good vampire is a dead vampire. Because he doesn't know the truth, he has all kinds of horrible fantasies as to why Harry wants to save Thomas. When he learns the truth, he cannot handle the shock of any of it. Harry doesn't know the truth as to why his grandfather hates all vampires so telling him who Thomas really is didn't go down so well. Throw in
Eb revealing that he thought it best to ignore both him and his mother until their talents revealed themselves.. No, both are too pissed to listen to reason.
I entirely disagree that Eb hasn't earned the right to give advice. He did LONG before Harry knew about their family relationship. He was Harry's mentor and teacher, he more than earned the right. Not to mention, Harry seems to be fine with this by and large, unless of course it goes against what Harry wants. Harry is only human himself. But Harry is learning when to heed advice and when not to. He has mostly improved a lot in this. But he still has some way to go.
Family dynamics, they do not follow logic my friend. Eb was a revered mentor and teacher who hid the truth about who he really was from Harry. Now he may have had good reasons for that, but it never turns out well when the truth is hidden. It is resented, the reaction is pure emotion, there is no way Harry is going to listen to anything Eb has to say. Harry knows what he has suffered for years because he thought he was an orphan alone in this world.. Sorry but the answer Eb gave for letting that happen isn't going to cut it. Now Harry isn't so pig headed or stupid not to realize that he has to work with Eb in this crisis, he knows he does. However if Eb survives this battle he has a lot of work to do to repair what he fucked up with his daughter and her son. Nor is Harry going to take advice on how to protect his brother or raise his daughter from a man who seemingly didn't give a damn about him or his mother, until Eb can explain it. That hasn't happened yet.
respect you think Eb is going about convincing Harry the wrong way. That's a fair call. But Harry is notoriously stubborn and difficult to convince. And you might remember that one of Harry's main regrets in Christmas Eve was how arrogant he is during Peace Talks and Battle Ground (and how much it cost). I think Eb is just probably the wrong person to convince Harry altogether. Eb would probably better getting someone else to make his argument for him. Like Murphy or Michael. Assuming they agreed.
First of all we don't know yet, what Harry's regrets are at Christmas. I suspect it has more to do with deploying a weapon of mass destruction because that is the only way the Titian can be stopped and the city saved. However that comes at a horrible price, a lot of innocents will could die in the process. Now Truman claimed he never lost a minute of sleep over giving the orders to drop the Bomb, because in the long run it saved more lives than it took. But Harry isn't Truman, deciding life and death on that kind of scale does take a lot of arrogance. The point you are missing I think, is in the end it still comes down to family dynamics.. Oh Eb might be able to logically convince Harry that was the right decision on mass destruction, but Eb the grandfather has a long way to go and a lot of explaining to do before Harry accepts anything he has to say on how to raise his daughter or how to treat his brother.
Oh for the record, I don't think Murphy can help Harry on matters of mass destruction.. It felt good to be hugging her for sure, but it was clear that she had no grasp on what really was at stake. But then again, perhaps it is too much for a mere vanilla human to get her head around.
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Unless she was like Molly...and had only recently become a Winter Lady. She might not have been in that position long.
Yeah but then how was she hanging around with Merlin? Arthurian times are supposed to be 500+ years earlier.
Eb would probably better getting someone else to make his argument for him. Like Murphy or Michael. Assuming they agreed.
But is Eb's argument even right?
Sure, the Council might kick Harry out. But ... so what?
It's been quite a while since they were a real help to Harry (sure, Eb showed up in Changes, but he was at risk too, plus he's family). They backed him up on Accords stuff in WN and SmF (and I think the former was more Ramirez being a friend than official Council support) ... but Harry's still an Accords member as Winter Knight. Surely he could get backing from Winter for Accords matters (I think Harry has a lot more authority with Winterfae than he's allowed himself to use, maybe even allowed himself to realize).
At this point, the Council needs Harry more than Harry needs them (they'd lose any control over Demonreach). If this is a ploy, the right answer might be for Harry to call the bluff.
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Oh for the record, I don't think Murphy can help Harry on matters of mass destruction.. It felt good to be hugging her for sure, but it was clear that she had no grasp on what really was at stake. But then again, perhaps it is too much for a mere vanilla human to get her head around.
I think she understands intellectually... I see that as more a coping mechanism, "deal with what's in front of me right now and leave the larger issues for later".
After Changes Murphy saw the supernatural world sliding into chaos and really couldn't do much except very locally, and even that required dealing with people like Marcone and Lara who she once would have seen as enemies.
I think she's narrowly focusing on the most immediate problem only as a psychological survival mechanism.
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I think she understands intellectually... I see that as more a coping mechanism, "deal with what's in front of me right now and leave the larger issues for later".
After Changes Murphy saw the supernatural world sliding into chaos and really couldn't do much except very locally, and even that required dealing with people like Marcone and Lara who she once would have seen as enemies.
I think she's narrowly focusing on the most immediate problem only as a psychological survival mechanism.
Possible, but it could go deeper than that, l think Nic did a lot more to her than just hurt her
physically. It might be as simple as she doesn't understand Harry as well as she thought she did.
But then again this feels like a different Harry than we've ever seen.
At this point, the Council needs Harry more than Harry needs them (they'd lose any control over Demonreach). If this is a ploy, the right answer might be for Harry to call the bluff.
Yeah, but there is no time for that now, Eb should realize that.