The book or both books have a bit of a "kitchen sink" feel to them. Stuff thrown in like Drackol and Mavra, to what purpose? I'd have loved to have seen a scene where Murphy makes her choice to join the fight and maybe Mac trying to talk her out of it. While the Senior Council voted Harry out, none of them in Chicago seemed to have a problem with him. Then suddenly he is voted out when at least three Senior Members, I am counting Rashid in because he most likely is still at the Gates are missing. Where was the Merlin in all of this, Harry should have at least been able to face his accusers. Using the magical death of a couple of Turtlenecks as a violation of the First Law, then suspending the death sentence? Carlos suddenly blaming Harry for everything from what happened to his fellow Wardens when Drackol showed up to the sixty thousand lives lost in Chicago? Because Harry failed to talk to him? Would it have mattered? And there was stuff that Harry couldn't talk about... All smells of set up, perhaps for future books, I just hope we don't have to wait another six years...
I agree. It feels... disjointed. The first person PoV made it near impossible to show Murphy’s decision to fight. But I agree Harry should have been present for his “trial”. I cannot believe Lucco didn’t speak out for Dresden and Ramerize’s flip to “enemy” is weird.
I still find the Butters “wish fulfillment” sceen in PT eye roll worthy, at best.
I agree. It feels... disjointed. The first person PoV made it near impossible to show Murphy’s decision to fight. But I agree Harry should have been present for his “trial”. I cannot believe Lucco didn’t speak out for Dresden and Ramerize’s flip to “enemy” is weird.
I still find the Butters “wish fulfillment” sceen in PT eye roll worthy, at best.
Cristos is still suspect as a black hat.
And the Merlin is a control freak, and Harry's a loose cannon who must have pocketed the Eye of Balor
I think ultimately it's a pressure play about the Eye; but politically it worked because three of Harry's four supporters weren't available.
It's either a full Council vote, or a Senior Council vote.The Merlin holds the proxies of those not there who haven't delegated them. If Eb's camp had delegated them, it would have been to the Gatekeeper because Eb's camp wasn't going to be there.
If it's a Senior Council vote, these are the members:
Martha Liberty
Joseph Listens-to-Wind
Ebenezer McCoy
Grigori Christos
Arthur Langtry
Ancient Mai
Rashid "I am the Gatekeeper" Gatekeeper
Rashid would have been at the Outer Gates.
Ebenezer and LtW were in surgery.
4 members is a majority, so they probably had a quorum to hold votes.
If the votes are unchanged, this is:
Martha Liberty: Against
Christos, Mai, Langtry: For
And Harry's out.
Would the Merlin be against Harry? In Changes he seemed to have changed his tune...Based on what Jim said about no one being what they seemed, I wouldn't be completely surprised if the Merlin shows up to Harry, acknowledges that he knows about the Grey Council and has from the beginning and gives him a speech about how the White Council can only be saved from the outside.
And why were no members at the meeting of the Accords in the aftermath?Because they didn't want them there. The White Council no longer has a direct interest Chicago and it was about handling the fact that everyone left in Chicago was going to know about the supernatural. They were planning the next war. The one against mortals. As little as the White Council does for humanity, that would have been a step too far.
Based on what Jim said about no one being what they seemed, I wouldn't be completely surprised if the Merlin shows up to Harry, acknowledges that he knows about the Grey Council and has from the beginning and gives him a speech about how the White Council can only be saved from the outside.
The entire thing seems somewhat... under developed given the length of time Mr. Butcher had on the story. I sincerely hope Mirror Mirror will be more of a return to form.
To be fair, I've been thinking for years that PT was going to be the one he has to get out of the way before telling the interesting story in MM.
Although with how vaguely off the duology seemed, I hope that assessment isn't mistaken.
I have lowered my expectations since Changes. I've been fine with GS and CD, loved SG and liked the duology, much more BG than PT. But clearly, the duology has serious problems, with too many plots, a rushed ending and other things. That said, I don't feel is so bad to even think in not buying more DF books. I always found things to criticize in the books. Also, things to love. And this time is no exception.
I just hope that Jim doesn't spread himself too thin and writes it with in the next year or two. I think both Peace Talks and Battle Ground suffered because of the six year gap.I think if you stop doing something a few years your performance will drop until you catch up. He will get better again from writing whatever he writes.
too many fans have already written in their expectations for it [while ignoring what Jim has said the story is going to be about].
My fear is people are anticipating Mirror Mirror way too much. There has been speculation about it's plot for the last ten years or more. I fear it will only disappoint, because too many fans have already written in their expectations for it.
I actually have the opposite of anticipation for Mirror Mirror. I expect it's going to feel a *lot* like Ghost Story did when it first came out. (Though Ghost Story is an *excellent* book on rereading, hopefully Mirror Mirror will be too.)
I expect to feel like we waited a year or more for another book -- and we still don't get to see the community Harry's built in the Castle or his new relationships or how mortal Chicago is changing (and not changing) in the wake of Battle Ground.
All of that will get shunted to the side for a trip into an alternate timeline, and that's going to be frustrating.
I'm trying to temper my anticipation, because barring a flurry of new short stories, it's going to be two or three years before we get to see the real aftermath of the Battle of the Bean.
In a series of this magnitude and depth there will be “off”
Books. If MM is similarly “off” from the rest of the series as PT/BG is I’ll reconsider my views.
I know the original Classic Trek story well, and while I liked it well enough, it was never one of my favorites. So I never could get excited in anticipation that far out.I think it's mostly going to bear a superficial resemblance to the Trek story. Eye patches and goatees. The way Jim described it, Evil Harry doesn't switch places with the Harrys he abducts, he adducts more than one Harry, and it's not an entirely different world. It's the exact same world except for a single different Choice Harry made toward the end of GP. It really sounds much more like an It's a Wonderful Life kind of story than a Mirror, Mirror story.
I think Jim was in a trap of his own making. Too many beloved characters that he HAD to write something about, and not enough about any of them.
Drakul and the Black Court were a distraction, but I suppose it is setting up stuff for the future. That is really the only explanation. Those pages would have been far better served focusing on further developing other characters or Harry's relationship with them.
I'm constitutionally incapable of skipping a book.
I suspect he means "when rereading".
I suspect he means "when rereading".Yep.
I think that is what Peace Talks and Battle Ground have done. They've set the ship back to full speed and opened up new possibilities for Harry. We can see the beginning outline of Harry taking an open stand against the White Council. The Black Council is in ascendance. Even though I wish we had seen more of Drakul and even Mavra, we have a sense of the threat the Creature; as Ebenezer once called him, possesses. I really liked the way Mab manipulated Harry in both books and I like the forced marriage to Lara Raith. I'm certainly not seeing it as a Love Connection, but I think it should be fun to watch. Despite the flaws I think the series as a whole is now in a good place.
I didn't like Ghost Story very much, particularly the B story about the second rate sorcerer.I liked Fitz, but the whole side quest seemed kinda pointless. Honestly, the whole book seemed a bit pointless. Cold Days relitigated basically the whole thing.
Yeah, she may have manipulated him as far as Lara goes, but it didn't take any to get him to defend Chicago. That was the significance of the volunteers following him under his banner, not Winter, no help from the mantle at all. I think I enjoyed the interaction between Mab and Harry the most. Something one sees in soldiers fighting a seemingly hopeless cause, but still fighting. They seemed to have reached an understanding and a level of respect for one another. Yes, Harry will still fear Mab and think she is an evil monster at times, but he begins to understand her. He begins to understand why and how she got to be the way she is. I think it is an understanding that Rashid achieved a couple of centuries ago more or less. Mab will still find Harry a tremendous pain in the ass at times, I suspect of her orders to marry Lara. However she respects her Knight, she isn't just playing lip service either, she sees Harry as a comrade in arms. She hasn't regarded a Knight in this manner in a millennia.
I liked Fitz, but the whole side quest seemed kinda pointless. Honestly, the whole book seemed a bit pointless. Cold Days relitigated basically the whole thing.
I did really like the Mavra was giving lip to the other vampires.
I agree. That was one small bit that I really liked. In the Dresdenverse even the un-dead can be as petty as a high school clique lording it over the other students.
One more thing that liked in BG. John Marcone getting darker and more dangerous. I have viscerally disliked fan ideas about Marcone becoming a KotC. I'm not saying this character is irredeemable, but he's a cold blooded mass murderer. Just because Marcone has a code of behavior that he follows and enforces doesn't make him a proto good guy who just needs a push in the right direction. I think Marcone will have to suffer a great deal before redemption becomes possible for him.
Oh, Mab manipulated Harry and it was masterful. I'm going to start a new thread on that subject tomorrow. Wait until you see the evidence before you judge. Jim did a great job of hiding the manipulation in plain site.
Yeah, what is scary is when he let Harry have the eye, he said he is learning think for "the long term." He has something in mind.I'm not saying the totality of the plan was revealed in BG, but I do think some of it was. Harry thinks that Marcone wanted the Council to have another reason to throw him out. Furthermore, the eye doesn't really give Harry any more power. It does put a target on him. Marcone's more worried about Harry than having an artifact he can't use that will put a target on his back.
I'm not saying the totality of the plan was revealed in BG, but I do think some of it was. Harry thinks that Marcone wanted the Council to have another reason to throw him out. Furthermore, the eye doesn't really give Harry any more power. It does put a target on him. Marcone's more worried about Harry than having an artifact he can't use that will put a target on his back.
Oh I think it is longer term than that. I think Namshiel thinks he can win Harry over to his side eventually. If for no other reason than Marcone and Harry have been allies in the past when it suited both of them. It may all come down to Beckett's daughter, who still is in a coma somewhere. That is Marcone's weak spot.I really hope it's something more than just what Harry's already figured out. That would be a little boring.
I really hope it's something more than just what Harry's already figured out. That would be a little boring.
He also might have remembered he had some guns on him.
I have a question. Do you really like the original SW? I am asking because I've seen a lot of hate towards Butters Jedi knight on this forum and in the internet in general and I wonder if that comes for people who don't like SW, or who loves it too much and feels like Butters bastardize it, or if there is another reason.
I have a question. Do you really like the original SW? I am asking because I've seen a lot of hate towards Butters Jedi knight on this forum and in the internet in general and I wonder if that comes for people who don't like SW, or who loves it too much and feels like Butters bastardize it, or if there is another reason.
I personally love Butters. I was angry at him by his lack of faith in Harry when he was back from the Dead, but after seen him believing in Harry again, being there for him, Butters is again one of my favorites. Sanya too. And I love the jedi saber since the beginning, I think is awesome. Obviously, this is just my preference, but I am trying to see if there is a pattern between the people who have no problems with Butters until he became a Jedi :)
Also, I hope we see Ramirez do a similar journey to Butters. Now he suspects Harry, he will be back to loving him later *crosses fingers*
I personally love Butters. I was angry at him by his lack of faith in Harry when he was back from the Dead, but after seen him believing in Harry again, being there for him, Butters is again one of my favorites. Sanya too. And I love the jedi saber since the beginning, I think is awesome. Obviously, this is just my preference, but I am trying to see if there is a pattern between the people who have no problems with Butters until he became a Jedi :)
@StrayDog, ok, thanks. That is not what happens to me. I simply love it. And I am reminded of my all memories too (and I am older than you, I remember the feeling the first time I saw a lightsaber on screen in the first movie) but not in a bad way. It does not take me away of the Dresdenverse any more like Wagner's Valkyrie ride, or Welcome to the Jungle.
Now the whole two chicks thing... Idk. Butters doesn't wear it well imo. I can't think of a specific reasoning for it.. unless the threat to punch Dresden was an indication of butters slow fall from grace, with the wolf chicks being part of the lynch pin.I don't think that, Butters is one of my favorite characters, I called it and got credit for predicting he'd be a Knight of the Cross someday. What bothers me about the two chick thing is it seems so out of character for him. It is like Jim is trying too hard to make Butters cool, and it falls flat. What makes Butters such a great character in my opinion is he is small and often scared for his body, but intellectually he is a hero. He takes stands for the truth, and does his best. The two chick thing is a distraction, maybe he has been hanging around Bob for too long? Sigh.... Polka will never die!
What bothers me about the two chick thing is it seems so out of character for him. It is like Jim is trying too hard to make Butters cool, and it falls flat. The two chick thing is a distraction, maybe he has been hanging around Bob for too long? Sigh.... Polka will never die!
Look back at Michael and Harry in the Train Station fighting off Hobs in the Myrk. Were the Swords of Faith not inspiring enough? As late as Skin Game he has Michael in the vault using the sword and his faith to save Harry in one of the scarier fights Jim has written.
Wasn't it insinuated that the girls were already in a relationship from their first introduction? At the very least roommates or besties. Not sure if giving Butters two girls is making him cool or not, that's for JB to explain but it doesn't fall flat for me. I don't mind Butters being a KotC but think he would have been better as the resourceful "muggle" wizard making excellent use of Bob to fight baddies.
But it is a distraction and Butters deserves better than that.
I think his Sword became a light saber because the source of his strength is his mind and the courage he has always had to stand up for the truth no matter the personal cost. He has been at his best as I see it when he is giving Harry his straight analyses devoid of emotional investment because Harry is also his friend.
All true and explainable but JB can accomplish all of his goals without making Fidelacchius a lightsaber
Sorry for being pedantic here but JB has been very careful to list the swords as love, hope, and faith. This seems to be very significant given the ongoing theme that names have power. Humans throwing them around like hand grenades and all. Didn't Michael use his faith to call in God's intervention and end Tessa's attack? Esperacchius was in his hand, glowing and all, but it wasn't the swords work.I said the sword........and his faith. Names make them characters in the story. Each has had a story line through their wielders. Jim changes the essential nature of the sword to make Butter's able to wield it.
Once again, the swords clashed, only things were different now. Instead of Sanya dominating the fight, Butters had the edge. Esperacchius darted and whirled, liquid smooth, but as fast as Sanya was with his blade, the steel sword wasn’t weightless.Butters can cut up a bridge in Chicago but he can no longer have a sword fight. I've already commented on why Butters is part of a ménage à trois, and it has nothing to do with sex.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 173). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Butters reached his peak in Dead Beat, when having nothing, he chose to stand and fight, knowing that he would probably die. I almost lost my mind I was so excited.
Then, in hero journey that ran at the speed of light, he becomes the magic skateboard rider who screws over his friends and gets a magic weapon. And by next books has abs of steel and two sex partners who are werewolves. And a sword so powerful Jim has to nerf it. It isn't so much that I hate Butter's as it is that he didn't earn what Jim gave him. /end rant
Actually, when you think about it, no, he couldn't. Butters is neither a warrior, or an athlete, so picking up the skills needed in a short time to be a Holy Knight would be difficult without cheating a bit. The light Saber is that bit of a cheat, in my opinion. Now if Butters had become a Knight back in book four or five, he would have had the years needed to developer skills as he went along.
You've touched on my initial point. This is all assuming Butters needs to be a Knight by the end of SG. I would rather Murphy was the wieldier of the sword of Faith and Butters stayed the resourceful one fighting with his brains and raw nerve.
If some people cannot handle a single bad duology in a series of 25 books then my guess is 25 book long series are not your thing.I'm sure Jim will continue to be successful with or without my approval. But just out of curiosity could you name a series with 25 books that has an over arching back story? I'm currently bored to tears.
But now I read it as being bored with more than just the single book, then I guess there is not much hope.This by you.
On Butters, I reread my post, but I cannot figure out what you mean.
I mainly paid attention to that Harry managed to shut up and not make fun of him.Butter's threatened him if he did, and that was the point. Butters is a tough guy. Jim, for as much as he talks about it doesn't do sex. People are jarred by it because it is out of character. And you can't go anywhere with Butters along that line unless Harry gets in bed with him, the books are written in the first person.
I don't think that, Butters is one of my favorite characters, I called it and got credit for predicting he'd be a Knight of the Cross someday. What bothers me about the two chick thing is it seems so out of character for him. It is like Jim is trying too hard to make Butters cool, and it falls flat. What makes Butters such a great character in my opinion is he is small and often scared for his body, but intellectually he is a hero. He takes stands for the truth, and does his best. The two chick thing is a distraction, maybe he has been hanging around Bob for too long? Sigh.... Polka will never die!
I'm sure Jim will continue to be successful with or without my approval. But just out of curiosity could you name a series with 25 books that has an over arching back story? I'm currently bored to tears.
The Wizard of Oz... ::)Only 14 books were written by Baum. Jim has upped the case count to 22 and stated that time travel won't happen till the last book before the BAT. That according to Reddit. Apparently from his video with Marsters.
Only 14 books were written by Baum. Jim has upped the case count to 22 and stated that time travel won't happen till the last book before the BAT. That according to Reddit. Apparently from his video with Marsters.link it pls,
link it pls,
21 books in the Brother Cadfael series, then there are the Perry Mason books..Still not 25. However I'll stop if you will.
No. There will be 22 books + BAT. If TT is the last before BAT it will be book 22. Book 18 will be MM, book 19 probably wrestling, 20 - 21 will be dragon and revenge against drakul (I don't know if one book each or one book both of them). Character development will be one of those, only Jim knows which.I don't like compromising book 16 as two case files.. it's still considered 1 file in my head canon lol. We have three books left until the BAT I believe still yes? That'd be #20?
I don't like compromising book 16 as two case files.. it's still considered 1 file in my head canon lol. We have three books left until the BAT I believe still yes? That'd be #20?As you wish, but we are still 5 books away of the BAT. (at least, with his current plan. Of course, he can change his mind)
These extra two books didn't used to exist either.. so the last book should still be considered book twenty per the original cycle no? He's added files to the in-between I believe.
This by you.Butter's threatened him if he did, and that was the point. Butters is a tough guy.
lvl 8 Barbarian? :oCame with the winter mantle I suppose.
Come on, Butters can't threaten Harry with physical violence without his kotc status to back it up. Anything that Butters ever asks Harry to do Harry only does because he agrees or because he respects Butters wishes. The level 3 paladin/lvl 5 expert does not threaten the level 12 wizard/lvl 8 Barbarian.Explain the reason for this text to me.
The little guy took a deep breath. Then he said, in a calm and sincere tone, “Harry, tease me about this or screw it up for me and I’ll knock your teeth out.” And he said it right. I mean, there’s a way to convey your sincere willingness to commit violence. Most people seem to think it involves a lot of screaming and waving your arms. It doesn’t. Really dangerous people don’t feel a need to shout about it. Delivering that kind of warning, sincerely, takes mostly the sort of confidence that only comes from experience. Butters had only had the Sword since the end of winter. He’d only been doing full-speed Knight work for about a month. But I’d seen him square off against maybe the scariest and most dangerous bad guy I personally knew—and Butters won. And here he was, facing off with me like a grouchy badger. He told me to back off and made me want to do it. Damn. Little guy had gotten all grown up on me.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (pp. 120-121). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I think Barbarian would be the best way to represent it without doing something super fancy. His rage is just more or less without a time limit. But if it is stopped by e.g. Iron when he is in the negatives he passed out-ish. He is quite a bit higher level barbarian than Butters is Paladin because Harry can beat him without the wizard stuff and without going into full rage
Butters and the two AlphasBecause he is a knight of the cross? Jim is trying to break the knights free from roman catholicism here.
Everyone brings their own life experiences to the table when they discuss this particular part of the books. It's interesting to see the different takes on what JB is attempting to portray. These type of relationships aren't knew in the DF series so why do people feel so strongly about Butters specifically?
Because he is a knight of the cross? Jim is trying to break the knights free from roman catholicism here.
Because he is a knight of the cross? Jim is trying to break the knights free from roman catholicism here.
As I said, I was expecting it would pay later, with Butters protecting Andi and Marci in the Fight or something, so I was disappointed when it did not happen. Alternatively, I was relieved when they survived because a) I like all the Alphas, I still regret Kirby death b) I did not want to see a sad crying Butters c) I did not want it to look like Jim was punishing Butters or the concept of threesomes.
Butters and the two AlphasSo I take it that you think this is about sex?
Everyone brings their own life experiences to the table when they discuss this particular part of the books. It's interesting to see the different takes on what JB is attempting to portray. These type of relationships aren't knew in the DF series so why do people feel so strongly about Butters specifically?
So I take it that you think this is about sex?
Or possibly the fact that with the Spear on him, he was unbeatable?He didn't have the spear.
Star WarsI care. I've enjoyed everyone's remembrances of SW. Me and my siblings first saw the original trilogy when my uncle gave my brother vhs copies of the trilogy, that he pirated from the video rental place he worked at, for Christmas.(click to show/hide)
Wasn't it insinuated that the girls were already in a relationship from their first introduction?Maybe, but it was explicitly stated at some point. Because of that, and Butters' statement that he didn't know how it happened, makes me think it's going to blow up in his face. If it doesn't, I'm in the nerd wish fulfillment camp.
Esperacchius was in his hand, glowing and all, but it wasn't the swords work.Amoracchius.
Jim is trying to break the knights free from roman catholicism here.The technical Baptist and atheist in the second book with KotC wasn't enough? What about when he added a Jewish Knight?
He didn't have the spear.
Maybe today. Right here. It was a good time for him. I was exhausted after the binding, and he had to know it. If he acted, he could eliminate me and gain the Spear of Destiny and the Eye of Balor, all in one evening.
Yes, he did.. After the Titan was gone, Harry was sitting down exhausted, when Marcone told him to take the Eye for safe keeping. page 346Mab most likely. She is not there to protect him from his own stupidity but an act like that would be something else. She wouldn’t be able to ignore it even if she wanted to.
But Marcone didn't even try.. Why?
Also he probably didn't have anything to deal with Harry's death curse at the time.I know Harry says it, but ow do you think Marcone would manage to kill Harry? He is a Denarian, right, but just coming from a "death", having thrown magic around, running, I think he is exhausted too. And if he reach the Eye he cannot use it. He could perhaps make a try for the Spear, but as I said, if Harry had an ounce of willpower in him (and Harry is not to be underestimated in that sense) he could throw the Spear to him. We don't really know how a Spear attack against a Denarian would work, but I don't think they wanted to take the risk.
Eh, I don't think Marcone will actually turn into a bad-bad guy, but rather stay a good-bad guy, as he has for the entire series. Yep, he has a Denarian coin now, but somehow, just by Thorned Namshiel calling Ethniu "Darling", I got the impression that either Marcone got the better of the Denarian somehow or that Thorned Namshiel is one of the more reasonable ones and that they both got an equitable deal. Just my instinctive impression, I could well be totally wrong here.He'll probably get darker to keep on mirroring Harry but not go full villain unless Harry does too.
I know Harry says it, but ow do you think Marcone would manage to kill Harry? He is a Denarian, right, but just coming from a "death", having thrown magic around, running, I think he is exhausted too. And if he reach the Eye he cannot use it. He could perhaps make a try for the Spear, but as I said, if Harry had an ounce of willpower in him (and Harry is not to be underestimated in that sense) he could throw the Spear to him. We don't really know how a Spear attack against a Denarian would work, but I don't think they wanted to take the risk.
Also my unproven theory, I think Marcone himself did not want to risk to have the Eye. I believe that he thinks he is able to subdue the Fallen for ever, but he is no fool. I don't think he wants to risk a chance of the Eye being in power of a Fallen.
This book pretty much killed the series for me and serves as an end.Yeah, this. mostly because of character action causing me to lose interest/respect in them.
Yeah, this. mostly because of character action causing me to lose interest/respect in them.
- Murph dies, removing her form the series. Annoying, but - becoming a valkyrie undermines both her shown religious beliefs and her refusal to sign on to any of the powers to be healed.
- Dresden threatens One Eye 2nd hand if he mistreats Murph...after failing to avenge her while on the spot. Blow hard.
- Gard fails to call him out on this.
- twerp who murdered Murph justified it by calling her a terrorist, so no doubt will be promoted, not punished, given the mortal decision to call the trashing of Chicago a terrorist attack.
- sword that broke rather than let Murph try and save Harry, is happy to kill Harry rather than let him avenge Murph.
- sword wielders would rather 11 million innocents die that permit the punishment of 1 murderer.
That's *one* plot....
Marcone was interesting because he was the vanilla mortal who could stand equal with supernaturals. Now he's just another coppertop.
Thomas, the schemer, just buckles to blackmail. Not, for example, waltzing in and saying "hey, I'm being blackmailed to murder you, what say you pretend to be murdered and throw me in a cell" or something similar. Justine's now full villain - when the smart thing to do, given she would probably die from child birth, would have Alfred toss her into the same cell as Thomas so that the kid can't kill her. (So finding out about Nemesis *after* already locking Nemesis up).
Molly goes cackling witch.
Ramirez goes whinny teenager.
Ebenezer's response to "Oh, I didn't kill you in a fit of fury?" is indifference.
The most significant character I still care about is Mouse. My biggest question at the end of the book was "where's Mister?" (With the Carpenters, apparently. Who I stopped caring about due to the worthlessness of the entire order).
Wanna feel more disgusted? Listen to the audiobook and enjoy [severe sarcasm] Marsters interpretation. This is not their best work.
Really? I don't do audiobooks, but you are the first person I read criticizing Marsters work (except for some brief comments about nordic words and things like that)Peace Talks was not Marster's best work. Sound quality is not good, the voices are off. Maybe not enough rehearsal time, it's hard to tell from the outside looking in.
Really? I don't do audiobooks, but you are the first person I read criticizing Marsters work (except for some brief comments about nordic words and things like that)
Or maybe Namshiel was just not that interested in the eye. He wants Marcone dependent on him and not on something else. His goal is to corrupt Marcone and as many people as he can manage. Maybe to corrupt Harry, that is a price.
Corrupting the bearers certainly seems to be a goal, but I'm not sure the Church isn't failing to understand other goals when they think it's all a struggle for the Denarians' souls. As far as the immortals are concerned, it's five minutes to midnight on the major throw-down to culminate this cycle of the starborn conjunction calendar. I'm not sure further corrupting some souls is *that* big a deal for Namshiel, compared to making advantageous moves in the bigger landscape.Corrupting souls is their purpose. There’s is window dressing. Nicodemus grand plan is just something to keep him busy and distract him.from what is really happening.
This is pretty clearly a “set up” book. Setting things in place for later in the series. Changes did the same thing but much more effectively by giving Harry a single narrow objective, save Maggie, while the the world tilted around him.
This time Harry’s involvment wad much wider. Wouldn’t this story have been better served if it had been a stand alone set in the Dresdenverse written in 3rd person with multiple POVs rater than just Harry? It would have served the same purpose without making the events seem... small.
Peace Talks was not Marster's best work. Sound quality is not good, the voices are off. Maybe not enough rehearsal time, it's hard to tell from the outside looking in.
Thomas, the schemer, just buckles to blackmail. Not, for example, waltzing in and saying "hey, I'm being blackmailed to murder you, what say you pretend to be murdered and throw me in a cell" or something similar. Justine's now full villain - when the smart thing to do, given she would probably die from child birth, would have Alfred toss her into the same cell as Thomas so that the kid can't kill her. (So finding out about Nemesis *after* already locking Nemesis up).
This time Harry’s involvment wad much wider. Wouldn’t this story have been better served if it had been a stand alone set in the Dresdenverse written in 3rd person with multiple POVs rater than just Harry? It would have served the same purpose without making the events seem... small.
Corrupting the bearers certainly seems to be a goal, but I'm not sure the Church isn't failing to understand other goals when they think it's all a struggle for the Denarians' souls. As far as the immortals are concerned, it's five minutes to midnight on the major throw-down to culminate this cycle of the starborn conjunction calendar. I'm not sure further corrupting some souls is *that* big a deal for Namshiel, compared to making advantageous moves in the bigger landscape.
- Murph dies, removing her form the series. Annoying, but - becoming a valkyrie undermines both her shown religious beliefs and her refusal to sign on to any of the powers to be healed.
- Dresden threatens One Eye 2nd hand if he mistreats Murph...after failing to avenge her while on the spot. Blow hard.
- Gard fails to call him out on this.
Dresden then belittles her death, sub serving the narrative so it's all about him [...] Standard sociopathic behavior, falls in line with "He said .... " to set a narrative that favors the narcissus.
- twerp who murdered Murph justified it by calling her a terrorist, so no doubt will be promoted, not punished, given the mortal decision to call the trashing of Chicago a terrorist attack.
- sword that broke rather than let Murph try and save Harry, is happy to kill Harry rather than let him avenge Murph.
- sword wielders would rather 11 million innocents die that permit the punishment of 1 murderer.
Marcone was interesting because he was the vanilla mortal who could stand equal with supernaturals. Now he's just another coppertop.
Molly goes cackling witch.
Ramirez goes whinny teenager.
Ebenezer's response to "Oh, I didn't kill you in a fit of fury?" is indifference.
Extra thing: what makes me angry about Karrin's death is not well that she dies as vanilla mortals, and bit in accident than in fight itself.
It's extreme contrieved, and extremely telegraphed.
Her scenes with Dresden are just reeking with "love interest will be killed" vibe all those books.
Rudolph trigger finger is over-foreshadows to nausea.
So what I'd change - just cut Rudolph from it. He is not needed, aside to apparently give readers and Dresden more hate than it's healthy, and fact they are constantly meeting is just too coincidental. (And it being reason of supernatural manipulation would make it even worse).
Then - place this book year later. Let relationship of Dresden and Murphy go from this semi-honeymoon-but-she's-crippled to some more interesting moment when they plan how to arrange this common life all things consider. Like for instance Karrin being sort of step-mother, and those things.
Most optimally book between SG and PT, where Karrin have to really struggle and get to peace with her condition - only to of course go into heat of battle anyway when her city is in danger.
Agreed, it was telegraphed when Christmas Eve first came out last Christmas. No, she isn't mentioned but to anyone who has faced a first holiday minus a loved on that close, knows
The contrived bit is Rudolph showing up early in Peace Talks, then making his paranoid presence known early in Battle Ground.
But suddenly her pain is taken away and her still injured tendons and ligaments [she was needing more surgery remember, then only to get to fifty percent] muscles weakened from months in a cast, and she is riding a motorcycle and shouldering a bazooka like nothing had happened to her? Really?
I agree, I also think if Murphy remained with a fifty percent disability, it wouldn't last between her and Harry. Namely because she would have struggled with her condition and I doubt she'd ever be at peace with it. She wouldn't want anyone around her, she may have even gone back to drinking. Hints of that after Grave Peril, she didn't want any help with that then, I doubt that she'd have changed that much. Then go off and die in the heat of battle injured or not, because that is who she was.
Small?? :o
And I don't know. I mean, yes, the battle scenes would have read better in 3rd person but Harry is still the lead character in this story and we need to know his struggle, his thoughts. What he was thinking when he did some things, his emotions. So yes, if it is multiple POV with Harry as one of those voices I guess it could have worked better than this.
Yes, small. This was like attempting to write a novel about Waterloo with the main character observing what was happening through a keyhole.
Having Murphy as a POV would have broadened the scope tremendously. Then add Ramierez (we’d have better insight into his anger and bitterness with Harry and Molly he would seem less petulant. Even Gard would have been interesting).
His presence in Peace Talks is only one not really contrieved - this at first sounded like some serious fallout from Skin Game, but was soon thrown away to make Rudolph a killer. Which is way less interested than Dresden arrested for murder tbh.
For a number of reasons it sounded contrived. The first thing, why in the hell was it a I.A. investigation? Both Harry and Murphy were civilians, no longer connected with the police force, and they were also both civilians when the supposed crimes were committed. Bradley didn't understand why they were there. If they were homicide, it would be different, Rudolph also sounded off from the get go.
I just had a thought about Carlos, I wonder if part of his bitterness stems not just from the fact that he really didn't, understand how it works with Winter Ladies, but doesn't know that neither did Molly. Worse yet, does he think because Harry is Winter Knight he may have access where he doesn't?
I don't know if writing it from someone else's point of view would have made that much difference over all. I've read Aftermath, Bombshells, and Backup, all three supposedly from another point of view, but they all sound the same. It is like Jim can write Murphy from Harry's point of view, but cannot get inside her head for it to sound like her, to me it still sounds like Harry with Murphy's voice. If that makes any sense?
So it's like bit different thing - someone using IA to hound Dresden for Skin Game is like fair contrievance - I mean someone is there. Not what happened in Battle Ground.
I mean really - how is Winter Lady perpetual virginity even held out as a secret.
Somehow it is - I mean Maeve was reccuring character for a long time, and I would never thought she's somehow limited in this area.
Yeah, Maeve's behavior suggested otherwise, but then again she could have been just expressing her sexual frustration.Or it was her way to kill people she did not like. Oops the mantle, nothing I can do about it, not my fault.
I do have a theory that Mab had kept that important little bit of information from Molly for a reason. She knows that Molly has feelings for Harry. She also knows that Harry's feelings for her are complicated, part big a brother, and she's the daughter of my best friend. But he is also part sexually attracted because she is built like a brick outhouse in an apple orchid. Both Harry and the Winter Knight's mantle have noticed. So what better way to demo to Molly that she must remain a virgin without risking her Winter Knight?Probably just because she knew from studying Molly and others that telling her something was not enough. She needs to experience it.
Probably just because she knew from studying Molly and others that telling her something was not enough. She needs to experience it.
That is why after Peace Talks came out I wrote that I really thought the chapter with Rudy and Bradley showing up at Murphy's house was a real WTF moment. Given that almost everyone and his uncle seemed to be on Harry's case at once, giving Peace Talks a real scatter shot feel, I felt the whole freeing Thomas thing was a waste of time. I would have rathered that actual peace talks took place, lots of heavy negotiations and concessions, and just when they think things are coming together, then the Titan shows up.
I also think the check point scene in Battle Field did two things. It established that Rudy was paranoid and had some agenda in his back pocket against Harry and Murphy. It also established that he had terrible trigger discipline, setting the stage for the shot heard around the world.
The soul gaze with Bradley was also interesting, it set things up for future books. It established that Bradley was a strong steady kind of man, very much in the mold of Michael, perhaps a Holy Sword is in his future. It also established him as a sane, repeatable witness to Rudy's madness when and if the shooting of Murphy is brought up and prosecuted at a later date. He can also establish that Harry isn't a terrorist, and perhaps character witness if somehow charges for what went down in Skin Game is prosecuted. I see one way or the other courtroom drama ahead.
I have to say that the main point I agree with the OP is the Thomas thing. It is indeed very weird. But the part about the child in danger? There are three reasons for that. One is that he is nemfected. Second, what is told in the first chapter of PT, it is difficult to give birth to a whampire (but it seems that would be more a danger for Justine than for the baby). And the third, Nem-Justine could decide that the baby overcome his/her utility and get rid of him/her (before or after the birth).
Nah, my point was different.
Why even child. NemJustine could easily just blackmail Thomas with her own life, because apparently he was absolute dumbass in this regard.
And I mean if Thomas could stop Nemesis from hurting Justine, he could do the same with pregnant Justine overall.
I don't think the child was ever in danger, only Justine because apparently the Hunger Demon fetus has to feed as well as the human one, so usually the mother doesn't survive the birth.
My question is did Thomas even know it was Nemesis? Or HWWBs for that matter? And just what was he promised?
Second obvious point, why was he beaten to the point to where finding out who was behind the plot was impossible?
I think it lying was so out of character for svartalves it would have red flagged Harry and also Mab and Molly who, I guess, know the details of what happened.Mab has excellent relations with the svartalves. They might just have followed her lead.
The only way that what Thomas did makes any sense was, as someone else said, if Nemesis hit him really fast and gave him no time to think his way out. No time to contact Harry.Thomas might not have known it was Nemesis. If it was just a normal demon Thomas might have thought it could negotiate with it.
I just can't imagine what Nemesis said to him to set that up. Hopefully at some point that will be explained in more detail.
Mab has excellent relations with the svartalves. They might just have followed her lead.
The only way that what Thomas did makes any sense was, as someone else said, if Nemesis hit him really fast and gave him no time to think his way out. No time to contact Harry.
I just can't imagine what Nemesis said to him to set that up. Hopefully at some point that will be explained in more detail.
Thomas might not have known it was Nemesis. If it was just a normal demon Thomas might have thought it could negotiate with it.
By offering energy to the the mother a demon could actually save both mother and child. I think Thomas alluded to that in the first chapter. He was working on it.
I think it lying was so out of character for svartalves it would have red flagged Harry and also Mab and Molly who, I guess, know the details of what happened.the only one of those who would know if the apartment was damaged would be Molly actually. I think it was damaged... But not so much so that it's actually unlivable.
I pointed at Evanna.
Everyone looked at her
"There was...damage to that apartment during that attack" she politely lied. "No replacement apartment is available at this time. As such, he may no longer be our guest."
The actual quote is this:Harry's the one prompting the lie. Man's not dumb, but she doesn't just KNOW what Harry's knows.
Note that Harry is the one saying that she is lying. And I am pretty sure if Harry knows, Mab knows.
The actual quote is this:It is a lie according to my definition of lying, knowingly trying to communicate a falsehood. It was not a lie in Mab’s definition of the word.
Note that Harry is the one saying that she is lying. And I am pretty sure if Harry knows, Mab knows.
She exactly said "during that attack". And it is Harry who called it a lie, not me. Besides, she talks about "no replacement",implying that it is too damaged.Indeed the apartment was in a damaged state when the attack happened.
Also, The_Sibelis yes, that is my point. Harry know is a lie. If he thought Evanna couldn't lie he wouldn't have said it so easily. Imagine the same scene, Harry points a Mab, Mab says something and the inner dialogue says "Mab politely lie". Wouldn't all of us scream?. As that is not what happened here, it is clear than Evanna lying was nothing that shakes the core of the galaxy.
Indeed the apartment was in a damaged state when the attack happened.yes, that. Well said.
Her sentence is not a prepared one. She was looking for words while it happened. It is quite possible she can lie, she is not a Sidhe after all, but she might not want to lie in the Sidhe interpretation of the word because of all the people there, just for the same reason Harry kept to the literal truth.
Her sentence can be interpreted in more than one way.
She exactly said "during that attack". And it is Harry who called it a lie, not me. Besides, she talks about "no replacement",implying that it is too damaged.
Also, The_Sibelis yes, that is my point. Harry know is a lie. If he thought Evanna couldn't lie he wouldn't have said it so easily. Imagine the same scene, Harry points a Mab, Mab says something and the inner dialogue says "Mab politely lie". Wouldn't all of us scream?. As that is not what happened here, it is clear than Evanna lying was nothing that shakes the core of the galaxy.
Michael does not know Murphy too much. And even when the Alphas o paranetters do, Butters have been working alongside Murphy all the time that Harry was dead. He was her friend too, and a very good one. And he was there, in the last minute, trying to save her life. And saving the soul of the man she loved. So I can't see no one (but Harry) who deserved it more than him. And Harry, who wouldn't have been there without Butters, was unable to speak.
Which brings me to my overall position - there should be extra book between Skin Game and Peace Talks - possibly dealing with Fomor and giving prelude to Peace Talks, but also allowing Butters to train really really hard, or for Murphy to get to cope with her disability seriously - rather than rushing into battle despite them and get killed right away.Yes, and six years was way too long a time lapse between books, especially when Peace Talks takes place with in months of Skin Game, intangibles get lost. I totally agree about Murphy trying to deal with her physical disabilities, but her serious screw up was with a Holy Sword, that screw up got it broken in the first place. It doesn't matter that it turned out okay in the end, the Blade was remade, a new Knight was named. The Sword broke because Murphy who claimed to know better than Harry about the Swords, who self proclaimed herself custodian, who was an absolute hypocrite when it came to the use of the Sword of Faith, that is why it got broken. Remember what Michael says, it isn't about the Sword, it is about the hand that wields it. That is what Nic read and played off of to get it broken. Trying to save Harry's life is a nice excuse, except Harry's life really was never in danger. Deep down after the fact in her hospital bed, Murphy had to have realized that as well. Yet in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, except for a little physical discomfort, Murphy talks like and acts like nothing had happened to her mentally/emotionally. And it had, in spades, Nic damaged a hell of a lot more than her body. Yet we see nothing about that.
Yes, and six years was way too long a time lapse between books, especially when Peace Talks takes place with in months of Skin Game, intangibles get lost. I totally agree about Murphy trying to deal with her physical disabilities, but her serious screw up was with a Holy Sword, that screw up got it broken in the first place. It doesn't matter that it turned out okay in the end, the Blade was remade, a new Knight was named. The Sword broke because Murphy who claimed to know better than Harry about the Swords, who self proclaimed herself custodian, who was an absolute hypocrite when it came to the use of the Sword of Faith, that is why it got broken. Remember what Michael says, it isn't about the Sword, it is about the hand that wields it. That is what Nic read and played off of to get it broken. Trying to save Harry's life is a nice excuse, except Harry's life really was never in danger. Deep down after the fact in her hospital bed, Murphy had to have realized that as well. Yet in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, except for a little physical discomfort, Murphy talks like and acts like nothing had happened to her mentally/emotionally. And it had, in spades, Nic damaged a hell of a lot more than her body. Yet we see nothing about that.
That is an excellent point. Murphy’s death takes Murphy’s psychological recovery off the table. I also don’t understand the purpose of introducing Murphy’s dad as a speaking character... after he died... and then taking Murphy off the table.cause with Murphy sticking around in limbo(a form of it anyway) she has time to go visit her dad in limbo and find out the truth of his death?
cause with Murphy sticking around in limbo(a form of it anyway) she has time to go visit her dad in limbo and find out the truth of his death?
Probably that, The_Sibelis, or something that will become relevant in MM.
And yes, WWW, every time that the weight of the sword is mentioned I was intrigued. I have 0 experience with swords but it seems that fighting with essentially a handle in your hand, no weight for the blade, would be a difficult task. Yet, once you get used to it, it is be very convenient, as you don't need to pass a strength check to wield it, you don't get tired, and can be very fast. All very useful for the not so strong adventurer. But still, I wouldn't think that the skills needed to fight with such a weapon should take more than a month. As I said before, I am willing to cut JB some slack as the sword itself could be helping.
How do... we... get to see or know about that?well... Heck if I know? Maybe a short story if we're lucky. Just because she's dead doesn't mean she's gone thanks to the GS perspective. Though I do think Dresden will get to see her at least once before the story finishes... I'm still hoping for a resurrection of some sort, but that seems less likely with Odin laying claim to her.
The Sword has training wheels though, Dina. You know the little side wheels we put on the bikes of young kids so they can learn to ride without falling over. In this case, the light saber cannot hurt the innocent, thus Butters can only damage those who need damaging when it comes to fighting. The rest of the time he knows the rules governing the Swords and is willing to live by them. Harry is a good example, the Sword could have easily have burnt off his hand at the wrist, it didn't. It gave him a good burn to wake him up and as a warning.. No skill needed, but as time goes on look for Butters to get better, I bet that Sanya and Michael weren't the best at sword play either starting out.
Yes, I understand all that, what I don't understand it's why there is a problem with that. Also, it fits Butters gamer profile, there are games where you cannot harm your allies and they can't harm you. So I found it fun. And obviously this property of the Sword will become super useful to kill things, perhaps Nemesis, perhaps the Hunger, I don't know but the sword will be super important in the BAT and perhaps even before that.
well... Heck if I know? Maybe a short story if we're lucky. Just because she's dead doesn't mean she's gone thanks to the GS perspective. Though I do think Dresden will get to see her at least once before the story finishes... I'm still hoping for a resurrection of some sort, but that seems less likely with Odin laying claim to her.
I've been thinking about why Etri... I think his sister Nfected.
The only way that what Thomas did makes any sense was, as someone else said, if Nemesis hit him really fast and gave him no time to think his way out. No time to contact Harry.What Sibelis said. That Nemesis was also possessing one of the Svartalves. That it would know if Thomas didn't try his utmost.
I just can't imagine what Nemesis said to him to set that up. Hopefully at some point that will be explained in more detail.
What Sibelis said. That Nemesis was also possessing one of the Svartalves. That it would know if Thomas didn't try his utmost.Or Thomas himself is infected. Justine had enough to arrange that if it is subtle enough only a few behaviours are influenced.
Or Thomas himself is infected. Justine had enough to arrange that if it is subtle enough only a few behaviours are influenced.
Wanna feel more disgusted? Listen to the audiobook and enjoy [severe sarcasm] Marsters interpretation. This is not their best work.Thanks for the warning, will avoid.
I am not loving how Dresden is becoming more and more egocentric the lack of trust his complete unwillingness to share info and his absolute conviction he knows best is really beginning to grate, it makes scenes where he gets kicked off the WC Instead of seeming unreasonable more like well what else were they going to do? Plus the Dresden files has one of if not the best supporting cast in the uf genre and I don’t think they were utilised that well in these two books.
1. With ivy my main meaning wasn’t that he hadn’t tried to get hold of her at the party but that he hadn’t been in contact with her in general since perhaps her last in person book appearance other then his call for help I am basing that on A) his surprise at her changed appearance and wondering where Kincaid was who we know has been gone since the end of changes ( due to that short story sorry I can’t remember the name of ) and being about her only friend and knowing what molly went through you think he would have dropped the occasional phone call
with Carlos , yes it could have happened off page but again his comments about taking Carlos out for a drink to figure what’s wrong with him implies to me he hasn’t at least in any serious way. C) and if you wanted to be contrary you could even throw in butters threesome as a example since the implication to me , simply on the basis that the usual cheap jokes were lacking was that it was meant to represent a actual poly situation which I know is just developing but it’s implied the boys spend a good bit of time together so you would think that Dresden would suspect something, not necessarily that by any means , was up. But that I admit is a pretty poor example.
Sorry outsider was a poor choice of words on my part I didn’t mean the demon outsiders but people such as white council, Carlos ext people who aren’t able to share Dresden’s POV like we do and can only judge him from what they can see hangs out with vampires , winter knight ext willing to sabatage his friends such as Carlos then refuses to share info.
Again I liked the two books especially battle ground and I am loving the files being back it’s just elements that have always been there I just found that bit more overt and maybe abrasive then in previous books so Dresden has always been single minded but he always been involved with his friends and that wasn’t the impression here came off as cold as above, the tropes elements especially in regards to murphy were so by the book you could see it coming from space that entire scene was like it was a riff on the one from The 100 the one involving lexa and Clarke if any one watches that, the sexism especially in peace talks was way more obvious then it has been previously and seriously how is female bisexuality such a thing but male bisexuality is non existent on the page.
I know this sounds like an awful lot of moaning but I really enjoyed the books but those things for me, the negative bits, really stood out maybe just because it’s been so long since a installment but I did think they were worse then previously.
Just to show my support to the idea that Harry is a lousy friend. As I said many times, it's not difficult for Harry to write a few notes to Ivy from time to time. For her, contact must be more difficult, but for him is easy. And the fact that he did not do that makes him selfish. On the same vein, he seems to take the Alphas for granted, so I hope in the next book we will see more interaction with him and something that shows his truly appreciation for them.
Yes Mira, I know what you feel about this and you know I think he could still take 5 minutes every couple of weeks to write her a message. Of course, not while he was in a coma, but all the rest of the time. And precisely my problem is that he had little contact with her since SF. I've been complaining about this since for ever. And no, Harry does not explicitly say that he never wrote, but the general tone of his inner monologue hints at that.Actually he wrote her in Changes asked for help with little Maggie. She couldn't help him, against the rules but hinted who he might ask for help.
You are right, I forgot about that. Still, not a social message.
Yes, I said I agree in that with Mira but I feel that his inner monologue indicates that he didn't write her. And I also agree, he has not idea Ivy is upset with him (or what happened with Kinkaid). So yes, appearances are important.
After hours of conversation about PT/BG, my friend asked me to summarize my feelings about Harry in two or three non-vulgar descriptors. My response:
Narcissistic Puke
After hours of conversation about PT/BG, my friend asked me to summarize my feelings about Harry in two or three non-vulgar descriptors. My response:
Narcissistic Puke
Really??
Signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder
Grandiose sense of self-importance. ...
Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur. ...
Needs constant praise and admiration. ...
Sense of entitlement. ...
Exploits others without guilt or shame. ...
Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others.
Maybe a couple of things in there, but for the most part those traits don't fit Harry.
Really? Wow, just wow.
I think arrogant or selfish fit him better than narcissistic but my definition would be very different. Something like annoying hero or silly hero, something like that. Even when sometimes I want to shake him by the shoulders, in general I like him. I wouldn't be reading the series if that were not the case.
Well, it surprised me that someone who read so many books didn't like Harry. And if you generally liked him for 15 books I don't think him so different now. Yes, there are things I did not like about him but well, I suppose the things I like are more than the things I don't.
Grandiose sense of self-importance. ...
Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur. ...
Needs constant praise and admiration. ...
Sense of entitlement. ...
Exploits others without guilt or shame. ...If you don't get that Harry feels guilt and shame sometimes out of proportion to what is he due, then I am not sure what books you are reading. I don't think he goes out of his way to exploit others either. If someone saves his bacon, he admits.
Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others.
instances in every single book where he demeans, intimidates, bullies, and/or belittles others.that in particular I don't find go be true. Standing up to monsters doesn't count, Nor truly the rest of the claim for Narcissistic personality disorder.. so, explain and give evidence? Uncondense the conversation and tell it to us properly because multiple people just don't see it. With some book citations please.
I doubt narcissistic personality disorder. But like most people he has a fairly large blind spot for understanding what living around him means. As an example, he lived in a basement apartment and ended up getting two of his neighbors burned out He knew his presence had made it a combat zone. And yet his little apartment was a greater imperative then his neighbors safety. As if shoveling the snow made up for that.
Well, I think he has always being somewhat of a bully, because he has intimidated several vanilla people. Cops, Marcone people (Varsity), I am sure there are other examples I am too sleepy to remember now. But he has also resisted bullies and protected the helpless. So it's not so easy or black & white.
Well, I think he has always being somewhat of a bully, because he has intimidated several vanilla people. Cops, Marcone people (Varsity),you can't bully a bully though. He didn't target the people in the varsity, he targeted Marcone, who had already tried to put Harry under his thumb, same with Marcones people. Being intimidating isn't bullying per se. He stands up when people come on strong to him, not so subtle difference. Bullying is putting others down for the purpose of feeling better about yourself and your own inadequacy.
The general thrust of the comment is that he didn't make a point of moving out even after enemies (e.g. Grevane) showed that other people are at risk just living in the same building as him, he might care for them but he still consciously put them at risk.Hé has huge blind spots but that does not make him a narcissist. His good heart is mentioned several times and he takes risks for other people.
His back was broken saving one neighbour of the fire, so I say he cares for them.Had he not lived so close to neighbors that they could burn if someone thought he should burn, then he wouldn't have gotten his back broken trying to rescue them.
Had he not lived so close to neighbors that they could burn if someone thought he should burn, then he wouldn't have gotten his back broken trying to rescue them.
They don't put fireworks manufacturing facilities in residential neighborhoods for a good reason. On occasion they've been known to blow up. It's was fun to watch how Jim has handled it. It was a perfect vehicle for humor. But it is what it is.
Though there are guys, actually a nice man, who lived in a next door boarding house had an arsenal in his room and one of the guns did go off and hit the house across the street. That happened to us when we first moved to Seattle years ago, and it was a nice middle class neighborhood for the most part. And before that my husband's uncle, a WWI vet who though a very gentle man, never thought things through, used to keep a couple of pounds of gun powder under his bed, he lived in a room in an old hotel in Chicago.. So it happens..I forgot which book it was but there was a discussion between Harry and Ebenezar about what was worse, stupid or evil.
I forgot which book it was but there was a discussion between Harry and Ebenezar about what was worse, stupid or evil.
Well, as Mira says, he has to live somewhere and he has no money for a nice white fence home in the suburbia. He did the best he could, a basement and very well protected so the bad guy thought twice before attacking.But there are ways for a wizard to get money. He should have given that more attention.
But there are ways for a wizard to get money. He should have given that more attention.
Though there are guys, actually a nice man, who lived in a next door boarding house had an arsenal in his room and one of the guns did go off and hit the house across the street. That happened to us when we first moved to Seattle years ago, and it was a nice middle class neighborhood for the most part. And before that my husband's uncle, a WWI vet who though a very gentle man, never thought things through, used to keep a couple of pounds of gun powder under his bed, he lived in a room in an old hotel in Chicago.. So it happens..I have a friend who loads his own ammo, and we all have hazards in our homes of some type. But if you care about the people you live near you don't bring your problems to their doors. You don't cook meth, you don't build bombs and you don't have zombie parties. It'll get you talked about and sued or you'll get a stretch in Joliet State Prison. :o
He was a P.I. and a good one, that took up his time. He never was interested in money, asBut the danger he brought to his neighbors made it necessary for him to get more money to create a proper wizard lair.
long as he was comfortable, he was content.
But the danger he brought to his neighbors made it necessary for him to get more money to create a proper wizard liar.
Housing is horribly expensive in Chicago, and you don't get much for your money. Given Harry's education and training, not many high paying jobs for him. My son had to move out to the burbs because as much as he and his family would love to live in Chicago, they couldn't afford it, and he and his wife make excellent money. Maybe doing more wizard stuff would help, but that was never his area of expertise. As I said, considering the events in the early books, his neighbors knew how dangerous it was to live in the same building, they chose to anyway... Also if they felt him a danger, they could have petitioned to have him evicted on that basis, they never did.. They have to take some responsibility too.We had to move to the suburbs as well. We needed more space when we got a child.
Hé has huge blind spots but that does not make him a narcissist. His good heart is mentioned several times and he takes risks for other people.Pretty much this. I don't see how anyone can see Harry as a narcissist. Harry's problem with empathy might be the opposite of a lacking.
His suicide in Changes for example was wrong in all kinds of ways but it does not fit a narcissistic personality. He genuinely cares for other people even if he lacks basic social skills in maintaining friendships.
We might end up with some sort of diagnosis but narcissism is simply the wrong one.
Pretty much this. I don't see how anyone can see Harry as a narcissist. Harry's problem with empathy might be the opposite of a lacking.
Harry really should have made enough money to live a good distance from anyone else or moved somewhere where that wouldn't be too expensive.
He was a P.I. and a good one, that took up his time. He never was interested in money, asAh he noted in the early stories, he has a lot of downtime between his regular cases (he'd have to, to stay poor on $50 an hour) of tracking down rings and the like.
long as he was comfortable, he was content.
Ah he noted in the early stories, he has a lot of downtime between his regular cases (he'd have to, to stay poor on $50 an hour) of tracking down rings and the like.
Then he gets to tinker in his beloved lab during his down time, he is a typical wizard. If you will notice Eb doesn't live a lavish lifestyle either, when he isn't running around doing his "Blackstaff" thing, he is a small farmer. I don't remember hearing what if anything his farm produces, and he drives around in an old pick up in overalls.It is not about living lavishly, that only draws attention. Being a small farmer is a good cover, gives isolation and space to work all kind of stuff without being noticed and playing the part is good practice. It only helps if he likes his role.
Harry had his office for PI things. And he worked in the basement so he wouldn't blow the wall of a neigborh. He was not a big thing in the supernatural world at first (that he knew, at least) so he did not know how dangerous he will be. When he did, he did what he could to protect everyone.Except for moving out of the city centre.
Also, Harry is a bad liar, what you mean is wizard lair. ;DYes.
As I said, the price of rent and property in and around Chicago is terrible. Even in the burbs then the commute is really really bad..So he should live somewhere else or do something to make enough money to live where he wants without placing others in danger.
He was not a big thing in the supernatural world at first (that he knew, at least) so he did not know how dangerous he will be. When he did, he did what he could to protect everyone.His apartment is attacked in SF, between GP and SK, BR, and then again in DB. He learns in BR that the White Court has a tactical assessment of his home's defenses and the White King recognizes him on sight. He really should have done something about his living situation sooner than after his house burned down in Changes.
So he should live somewhere else or do something to make enough money to live where he wants without placing others in danger.
is apartment is attacked in SF, between GP and SK, BR, and then again in DB. He learns in BR that the White Court has a tactical assessment of his home's defenses and the White King recognizes him on sight. He really should have done something about his living situation sooner than after his house burned down in Changes.
Not always an easy thing to do. Yeah, Harry is a professional wizard, even there he admits to huge gaps in his education, a lot because he was lazy as a kid But anyway, his muggle education consists of a GED, he isn't trained for any trades, is a bit old for an apprentice, so getting enough money together to get a place that fits his needs, not easy.There's evidence from the text, WoJ, and our musings here as to how Harry could have made a lot of money. Until I see something convincing me that all that evidence is wrong, I'm going to go with he chose not to make a lot of money, which is also directly supported by the text.
As I said, the other people had to have been aware, no one tried to force him out.Didn't Mrs. Spunkelcrief think that the zombie attack was a wild party and raised his rent for it? I don't think his neighbors were aware or believed in the supernatural.
here's evidence from the text, WoJ, and our musings here as to how Harry could have made a lot of money. Until I see something convincing me that all that evidence is wrong, I'm going to go with he chose not to make a lot of money, which is also directly supported by the text.
Didn't Mrs. Spunkelcrief think that the zombie attack was a wild party and raised his rent for it? I don't think his neighbors were aware or believed in the supernatural.
What I remember from the text is Harry saying there are wizards that use their power to make money. He supposed he could do that as well, but thought it was corrupting.There's also Ulshavaras's question that presumes he could. Jim implied using Bob for financial advise would be very useful.
Maybe not, but if I remember correctly the zombies totally trashed the place, people get evicted for that.
There's also Ulshavaras's question that presumes he could. Jim implied using Bob for financial advise would be very useful.
Yes. They do. But not as quickly as they do when they endanger the landlord's life.
Yes, and six years was way too long a time lapse between books, especially when Peace Talks takes place with in months of Skin Game, intangibles get lost.
The Sword broke because Murphy who claimed to know better than Harry about the Swords, who self proclaimed herself custodian, who was an absolute hypocrite when it came to the use of the Sword of Faith, that is why it got broken. Remember what Michael says, it isn't about the Sword, it is about the hand that wields it. That is what Nic read and played off of to get it broken. Trying to save Harry's life is a nice excuse, except Harry's life really was never in danger. Deep down after the fact in her hospital bed, Murphy had to have realized that as well. Yet in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, except for a little physical discomfort, Murphy talks like and acts like nothing had happened to her mentally/emotionally. And it had, in spades, Nic damaged a hell of a lot more than her body. Yet we see nothing about that.
That is an excellent point. Murphy’s death takes Murphy’s psychological recovery off the table. I also don’t understand the purpose of introducing Murphy’s dad as a speaking character... after he died... and then taking Murphy off the table.
cause with Murphy sticking around in limbo(a form of it anyway) she has time to go visit her dad in limbo and find out the truth of his death?
And yes, WWW, every time that the weight of the sword is mentioned I was intrigued. I have 0 experience with swords but it seems that fighting with essentially a handle in your hand, no weight for the blade, would be a difficult task. Yet, once you get used to it, it is be very convenient, as you don't need to pass a strength check to wield it, you don't get tired, and can be very fast. All very useful for the not so strong adventurer. But still, I wouldn't think that the skills needed to fight with such a weapon should take more than a month. As I said before, I am willing to cut JB some slack as the sword itself could be helping.
But the bit I didn’t like the most was that scene with Sigrun and Harry where Jim , in my hopefully wrong opinion, kind of berated readers who wouldn’t be happy with murphy’s fate it reminded me a bit too much of LKH for comfort.
With ivy my main meaning wasn’t that he hadn’t tried to get hold of her at the party but that he hadn’t been in contact with her in general since perhaps her last in person book appearance other then his call for help I am basing that on
Some hint maybe of camping trips with him and the other Wardens, but did that continue after Carlos was injured?
Heroic monster, or monsterous hero.
It is entirely possible that a significant portion of why I currently don't like Harry is that he isn't different now, after all that he has been through, ie no growth. The author has resorted back to the default traits of his primary character. Mind you, I'm attempting to cook down several hours of in depth conversation into a small paragraph.
Pretty much this. I don't see how anyone can see Harry as a narcissist. Harry's problem with empathy might be the opposite of a lacking.
Harry really should have made enough money to live a good distance from anyone else or moved somewhere where that wouldn't be too expensive.
As I said, the other people had to have been aware, no one tried to force him out. Who knows they might even have told him they didn't mind. We really don't know how rough a neighborhood he lived in, it might be bad enough that even living with a wizard in the building isn't seen as all that dangerous.
Murphy's spirit/soul cannot leave Valhalla for next few centuries.Murphy can leave Valhalla when the memory of her has faded from mortal memory and using faded vs forgotten means something different than no memory. Her memory only has to be weakened or diminished it's just a matter of how faded to use Webster's definition. So there are ways she could return sooner than that or BAT
What's LKH?
That saying I agree about lack of serious growth of character. I'll say even more - other characters have this problem as well.
This is curse of formula - books in DF are like tightly written episodes of TV-series. But there is lot of time between them - that episodes of TV series lacks.
So for story that spans like 20 seasons, we ultimately gets character development worthy of maybe a season.
The problem that most have with Murph's death is how it was done and handle afterward. We had what 17 books and side stories of H and K interaction and foundation building in the series only for her to used as a something to gut punch Harry and then no real show any kind of fallout to her death after Butters and Sanya snapped him out turning Rudolph into a bloody smear. Then at the end we have Jim forcing Harry and Lara together it feels like he did it just to get Karrin out of the way for Lara
Murphy can leave Valhalla when the memory of her has faded from mortal memory and using faded vs forgotten means something different than no memory. Her memory only has to be weakened or diminished it's just a matter of how faded to use Webster's definition. So there are ways she could return sooner than that or BAT
LKH is Laurell Kaye Hamilton author of the Anita Blake series that she ran/turned a great to start to series into a porn/orgy fest while writing the main as a hero even though she is firmly on the side of the antagonist and drove a good chunk of fans away.
Dosen't help fans that are wondering if continue to read DF is a good idea after BG , PT and Murphy being removed to find out that Jim is friends with her and thinks that a crossover would be cool.
The problem that most have with Murph's death is how it was done and handle afterward. We had what 17 books and side stories of H and K interaction and foundation building in the series only for her to used as a something to gut punch Harry and then no real show any kind of fallout to her death after Butters and Sanya snapped him out of turning Rudolph into a bloody smear. Then at the end we have Jim forcing Harry and Lara together it feels like he did it just to get Karrin out of the way for Lara
Which is a real disappointment, a bitch showdown between the two might have been kind of interesting... ::)
Oh, I insist with some of my first reactions of BG. Harry and Murphy finally have sex only because JB needed Harry engaged with Lara but not vulnerable. The whole point was to give Harry True Love protection. If not for that, Murphy and Harry would have been still in the "will they, won't they" stage, and I would feel better. Because it's awful that any romantic partner Harry had has been killed or enthralled.
Maybe I give it a shot.I read Lovecraft earlier in my teens but that is more horror I suppose.
The first truly Urban/Paranormal Fantasy books I've read was probably Neil Gaiman - Neverwhere and American Gods, and in terms of series Felix Castor books.
I think UF/PF should have tropes of either crime, thriller, romance story mixed with fantasy stuff in real world. Otherwise it's horror.I think the difference is that horror is primarily meant to scare you, all other themes are secondary.
But by WOJ you don't have to have sex to estabilish True Love protection though intimacy helps.
(Now other thing I really dislike this True Love schtick for whampires, and I think it does not fit at all with how you repell fear and despair whampires according to WOJ - which is by courage and hope - so my take is romantic love True or not is not anathema, opposition of lust. Usually it's tamer of it - but not direct opposition. In other cases we have more like emotional state that is in direct opposition of what whampire try to do to you.
Also I think not... overall. Murphy was goner, she had to die before Mirror, Mirror so alt-Murphy would be greater torture for Harry.
But that also sort means Murphy had to went into loved one stage to hit those nails even harder. So I think even without Lara they would get together before her demise to put things in most devastating position before we seen Darth Dresden World.
What? I remember WoJ saying that sex and the possibility of a conception were a requirement for a True Love protection. I remember it well because there was a lot of discussion here about Jim Butcher being an homophobic.
And I know Murphy had to die, but the sex thing was, IMHO, only for the Protection.
Ah, I like that better. So, if he really changed his mind, I am glad. Still, intimacy works for my idea. Dresden and Murph have not been so intimate until PT.
According to Dob it has to do with exchanging pieces of your soul.
On the other hand, he would be invulnerable to fear vampires
Dunno. Maybe Murphy's death breaks it.
Weren't he and Lara been able to shake hands?
Susan's death didn't break Harry's protection until he took up with Luccio.Susan was very much alive when Harry hooked up with Luccio.
Susan was very much alive when Harry hooked up with Luccio.Yes. Half-Turned, but very alive.
Hard to say.
As I said I'm not a fan of this True Love thing - I'd much prefer it to be sort of mental duel with such vampire than some almost excuse random category. With Skavis and Malvora you have to prove your virtue to burn those bastards.
Maybe Justine was infected at that point, and therefore not in love, so didn't have the protection. But bringing in the other person was her cover to Thomas. See? You can touch me because I brought this other person in to have sex with us! No other way to get pregnant unless Thomas was convinced that was the other person causing him to be able to touch Justine, instead of possessed Justine didn't love Thomas.
Yeah, I've always had trouble with it as well. It never was clear and it has been debated a bunch over the years. What constitutes true love? Supposedly just touching a wedding ring of a someone who has true love protection can burn, or a flower touched and given in true love. Yet getting raped can destroy the protection? Yes, we've gone around and around on that one. It makes no sense. Does it come down to being unfaithful? You can get drunk and have a one night stand, still truly love someone else, but your protection is gone. Did Justine have sex with the woman she brought home because she loved her? Or so the protection would be erased and she an Thomas could have sex? Or more to the point, was she motivated by her true love for Thomas to do it so they could consummate their relationship, which you'd think would seal not destroy the whole protection thing. Or was Justine infested with Nemesis as of Ghost Story and wanted to destroy her protection so she could eventually get pregnant to set up other events?
I mean even if Justine's having sex with this lass would destroy protection, shouldn't it return like in 5 minutes after she moved to Thomas, assuming they were still in True Love. Now this conundrum thankfully was sort of explained as Nemesis trick, which makes it more digestible for me.
Because really as only scene with Thomas in "Ghost Story" it was lame.
True love is the magical mechanism that establishes the protection, just like casting a ward. And like a ward it remains until broken or taken down.
Having sex with your True Love at a later time rebuilds the ward. I imagine Thomas and Justine had to refrain from body contact very shorty after completing the act as the ward came back up.
Having sex with your True Love at a later time rebuilds the ward. I imagine Thomas and Justine had to refrain from body contact very shorty after completing the act as the ward came back up.
One huge problem with that theory, Justine got pregnant at some point just before Peace talks. Which implies no true love protection because they continued to have sex. Or possible Justine continued her bisexual relationship so there was no true love protection build up, she and Thomas could continue to have sex ending in pregnancy which was the goal of Nemesis. Also possible, Thomas isn't even the father, he did say that vampires of the White Court are all but sterile, plus they used birth control. So poor Thomas was simply duped all the way around because I doubt he'd believe that anyone else could be the child's father but himself.If she was the one doing the birth control then it was easily sabotaged. The all but sterile must be magical in origin and has something to do with the demon and might not even be a factor if the demon thinks Justine is the right mother.
One huge problem with that theory, Justine got pregnant at some point just before Peace talks. Which implies no true love protection because they continued to have sex. Or possible Justine continued her bisexual relationship so there was no true love protection build up, she and Thomas could continue to have sex ending in pregnancy which was the goal of Nemesis. Also possible, Thomas isn't even the father, he did say that vampires of the White Court are all but sterile, plus they used birth control. So poor Thomas was simply duped all the way around because I doubt he'd believe that anyone else could be the child's father but himself.
It's a pretty convenient ward, if a ward it is. Thomas banged his way through Dead Beat. That should have killed it. Yet by White Knight despite the fact that Thomas has been doing every "she" he comes in contact with, it means not one wit.
I believe you are right in terms of how Jim has structured it, but having been married for 40 plus years I can reliably state that sex has very little to do with true love.Jim Butler was only 33 when Blood Rites came out.
Jim Butler was only 33 when Blood Rites came out.
I don't think Jim's age had much to do with how he structured the true love rules, I think he just didn't think it through. You can be young and know what true love is, and you can be old and be clueless as to what it really is. As I said, if the old posts still exist from the time Blood Rites came out, we went round and round on the subject.I think true love is not enough, it is magic after all. It has to be confirmed with words or ceremony.
I too was married for over 43 years until my husband died, and know that true love has nothing to do with sex. Sex is fun, true love enhances it, but sex isn't the main component. I think Jim came up with the idea, it fit perfectly into the story he was writing at the time and went with it. Ignoring that one can have sex without love, one can be raped, one can truly love without sex, one can even be unfaithful for a lot of complicated reasons and still truly love one person, which as the series has gone on variations of these scenarios create problems for the story line. And yes, it is possible that Harry still truly loves both Susan and Murphy though both are dead, and always will... So is he still protected?
I think we are overthinking it. It's a convenient thing for literature, it has not need to be related with real life. And since book 1 JB established that in his world, sexual relationships are super powerful and magic related. So, perhaps we can accept the mechanics of True Love as he wants them to be?There is also the ritual use of sex as with Mab and Harry.
There is also the ritual use of sex as with Mab and Harry.
Yes, we were talking about the power of the sexual act in the DF, not specifically about True Love (right now).
Until I see it on the books, I won't believe it.
It's a pretty convenient ward, if a ward it is. Thomas banged his way through Dead Beat. That should have killed it. Yet by White Knight despite the fact that Thomas has been doing every "she" he comes in contact with, it means not one wit.
Jim Butler was only 33 when Blood Rites came out.
I think Jim came up with the idea, it fit perfectly into the story he was writing at the time and went with it. Ignoring that one can have sex without love, one can be raped, one can truly love without sex, one can even be unfaithful for a lot of complicated reasons and still truly love one person, which as the series has gone on variations of these scenarios create problems for the story line. And yes, it is possible that Harry still truly loves both Susan and Murphy though both are dead, and always will... So is he still protected?
I think true love is not enough, it is magic after all. It has to be confirmed with words or ceremony.
I think we are overthinking it. It's a convenient thing for literature, it has not need to be related with real life. And since book 1 JB established that in his world, sexual relationships are super powerful and magic related. So, perhaps we can accept the mechanics of True Love as he wants them to be?
Thomas can fuck off his own ward, but it's not like ward of Justine is like ultimately dependent of his own. So Justine can stay faithful and keep True Love ward around. An anyway - if they go intimate it can be rebuilt for them both who knows how fast. After all Thomas was not burned by own True Love, but by Justine's - otherwise his own True Love would kill her.
Thomas can bang whoever but Justine is unfaithful. Right.
Thomas can bang whoever but Justine is unfaithful. Right.
My comment was about how Jim has written Thomas. And more generally how he has written women.
So Justine has had Nemesis for awhile, did nobody notice the true love thing stopped happening or has Nemesis actually managed to pervert the cosmic forces of love against reality?Or an infection is just not enough to stop the true love thing if Nemesis only influenced her a bit. The real taking over was probably much later than the infection.
I agree, WWW. I don't have much problems with JB writing women, except for the fact that those sleeping with Harry are pretty much doomed (or mind-controlled).
The male gaze bothers me not in the least. It exists and if any man tells you he doesn't look at women, he's a liar, given that he is heterosexual. And I assume that women have something similar going on with men. But it's almost never vocalized, even internally. The whole fashion industry is built on the idea. He just does it to the point of exhaustion.
My point falls back on the only women who was written in the books outside that concept. Murphy. As poorly as Jim treated her over the course of the books, she deserved a better end then what she got. A talented writer should be able to pull that off and get the emotional punch that he wanted.
The male gaze bothers me not in the least. It exists and if any man tells you he doesn't look at women, he's a liar, given that he is heterosexual. And I assume that women have something similar going on with men. But it's almost never vocalized, even internally. The whole fashion industry is built on the idea. He just does it to the point of exhaustion.
My point falls back on the only women who was written in the books outside that concept. Murphy. As poorly as Jim treated her over the course of the books, she deserved a better end then what she got. A talented writer should be able to pull that off and get the emotional punch that he wanted.
I agree, she did deserve better. But perhaps that was the point? Jim wrote that completely avoidable ending for her to piss us off.
I am not going to engage about Murphy here but I agree Dresden repetitions are annoying. It's not the male gaze what bothers me, after all, Dresden is quite good describing males too. Michael, Sanya, Butters, Marcone. But he repeats too much and not only about people, I am really tired of him explaining us how soulgazes work. We got it the first time you told us, 20 years ago, and in PT/BG you explained so many times that it even lessened the effect of the Empty House Tragic Moment.That is a problem with long running series. I read on Ilona Andrews blog that one reason she ended her Kate Daniels series is that it became more and more difficult to write original and new descriptions of the same recurring things.
Also, I agree about Thomas fridging. I need him back ASAP.
Also, I agree about Thomas fridging. I need him back ASAP.
I am not going to engage about Murphy here but I agree Dresden repetitions are annoying. It's not the male gaze what bothers me, after all, Dresden is quite good describing males too. Michael, Sanya, Butters, Marcone. But he repeats too much and not only about people, I am really tired of him explaining us how soulgazes work. We got it the first time you told us, 20 years ago, and in PT/BG you explained so many times that it even lessened the effect of the Empty House Tragic Moment.
That is a problem with long running series. I read on Ilona Andrews blog that one reason she ended her Kate Daniels series is that it became more and more difficult to write original and new descriptions of the same recurring things.
You may be right about Thomas but I don't think it will make much sense. Lara and Harry are simply too interested. And I don't think any of us want to see Harry playing house, with Lara as a wife and "mother" of Maggie and Thomas baby (they will rescue him/her). Also, I don't know what will happen with Bonea and Bob.
I somehow doubt Lara will become his wife.
I somehow doubt Lara will become his wife.No doubt she will. The question is what will that mean.
I hope you are right.
I want to see the reactions as the intended wedding but I don't want it actually happening.
But he repeats too much and not only about people, I am really tired of him explaining us how soulgazes work. We got it the first time you told us, 20 years ago, and in PT/BG you explained so many times that it even lessened the effect of the Empty House Tragic Moment.Soul gazing a octopus pretty much did me in with the idea. Maybe a squirrel next? Thomas is where he is for a reason. He can't stay a vampire. Vampires don't have happy endings.
Also, I agree about Thomas fridging. I need him back ASAP.
Soul gazing a octopus pretty much did me in with the idea. Maybe a squirrel next? Thomas is where he is for a reason. He can't stay a vampire. Vampires don't have happy endings.
I had some hopes that the story line would mature when Harry accepted what he had bought by becoming Mab's Knight and the difficulty of being a father. Instead it has moved to the sublime. Here comes the apocalypse, but wait while I take the child to the babysitter and dump my idiot brother in stir.
You have Eb arguing that he's too close to the White's by having Thomas in the house. And now Harry is courting Lara. That can't end well. Harry better keep those murder dolls in stock. There are plenty of near Earth asteroids for Eb to call down. With the way everybody was acting I could believe that Harry was already in Mirror Mirror world.
Soul gazing a octopus pretty much did me in with the idea. Maybe a squirrel next?
Thomas is where he is for a reason. He can't stay a vampire. Vampires don't have happy endings.
I had some hopes that the story line would mature when Harry accepted what he had bought by becoming Mab's Knight and the difficulty of being a father. Instead it has moved to the sublime. Here comes the apocalypse, but wait while I take the child to the babysitter and dump my idiot brother in stir.
You have Eb arguing that he's too close to the White's by having Thomas in the house. And now Harry is courting Lara. That can't end well. Harry better keep those murder dolls in stock. There are plenty of near Earth asteroids for Eb to call down. With the way everybody was acting I could believe that Harry was already in Mirror Mirror world.
I think there was some of it, Harry's fears about becoming a monster but at the same time beginning to understand Mab better. But I agree it did get weird after that.
No, it can't, I guess I am one of the few who isn't looking forward to Mirror Mirror.. Maybe I am just sick of hearing about it? :-\
No Mira, you are not the only one. Specially because I don't think one decision, whatever it is, changes Harry so much to make him such a dark person that he even consider to summon another Harry to be safer himself.
I mean it won't be one decision - there will be many many more - it will be just first step.I don't know, I don't have it so clear.
And even after that step there would be countless AU Dresden's that repented, were remorseful and abandoned whatever naughtyness was involved.
I think idea was - that you know kraken was a human being turned by Fomor - maybe brain implaneted in octopus - they are after all fleshcrafters.I know what the idea was.
what do you mean by last one?Everybody is way out of character. Harry, Eb and Thomas all acting like emo little boys. When we last heard of the Council they were in civil war mode and Carlos and the younger wardens were in lock down. Luccio was locked up. Fast forward to Peace Talks, now the Council is back to work as if nothing had happened.
When we last heard of the Council they were in civil war mode and Carlos and the younger wardens were in lock down. Luccio was locked up. Fast forward to Peace Talks, now the Council is back to work as if nothing had happened.
A man's daughter is his little angel and he has to have his nose rubbed in it to think poorly of her.
Whereas a man's son has to constantly be reined in lest he repeat his father's mistake or make worst ones.
Reverse that for moms.
But that would not be urban fantasy if Dresden was living 60 miles from city in some old farm.Depends on both your definition of urban fantasy and/or where the action of the books takes place. From Wikipedia: Urban fantasy is a genre of fiction, a subgenre of fantasy in which the narrative uses supernatural elements in a 19th-century to 21st-century (or equivalent) urban society. It usually takes place in the present day (or the equivalent of the "present day")." Some define urban fantasy in a way that something like contemporary fantasy would be a better name. Few would describe something like The King Killer Chronicles as urban fantasy even though the majority of it takes place in urban settings that have an Early Modern Era, maybe Renaissance, feel to them.
I can accept few splited timeline, but when according to WOJ each choice split reality it cheapens free will imensely. I mean literally that makes free will some bizzare mechanism to produce more alternative universes, not a real power of choice :PI totally agree, so I came up with a head canon mechanism that fixes that problem. Every alternate universe creating choice creates multiple universes because in the moment of decision, the person makes multiple choices that are all against that person's nature. So Harry's "natural" decision in GP was to do X. But the Harry we've followed did Y. The Harry(s) we haven't followed did not X and not Y.
Dresden's male gaze can be annoying, but that's I think more part of wider problem of Jim making constant repetitions of descriptions and so on.Jim's big on physical descriptions. I remember someone going over descriptions of Michael, Sanya, and Bradley. It was kind of similar to how Jim describes all the super attractive women. Thomas's shirtless descriptions are a lot like that too. And as Dina said, it's not just people. Mac's place, Harry's apartment, and the Beetle. At least Harry's apartment and the Beetle change frequently enough.
My point falls back on the only women who was written in the books outside that concept. Murphy. As poorly as Jim treated her over the course of the books, she deserved a better end then what she got. A talented writer should be able to pull that off and get the emotional punch that he wanted.Can anyone tell me anything about Murphy's boobs? I don't think they're ever described at all. The closest I can think of is the description of her as having a gymnast's build, and I know what gymnasts typically look like. He doesn't talk about anything specific about Murphy's appearance below her neck until BR, I think.
DO NOT DESCRIBE THEM. Like really. Describe new things. Introduce new things.Or put them in an index or something if you think it's really necessary for new readers.
Also, Harry could live somewhere isolated and work in the city. He'd just have to have a quick/reliable way of traveling to the city.
I totally agree, so I came up with a head canon mechanism that fixes that problem. Every alternate universe creating choice creates multiple universes because in the moment of decision, the person makes multiple choices that are all against that person's nature. So Harry's "natural" decision in GP was to do X. But the Harry we've followed did Y. The Harry(s) we haven't followed did not X and not Y.
Jim's big on physical descriptions. I remember someone going over descriptions of Michael, Sanya, and Bradley. It was kind of similar to how Jim describes all the super attractive women. Thomas's shirtless descriptions are a lot like that too. And as Dina said, it's not just people. Mac's place, Harry's apartment, and the Beetle. At least Harry's apartment and the Beetle change frequently enough.
From what we know of Dresden multiverse you can split of a new universe by making an important free willed choice. There will be universes were you made a different choice.
The mirror universe is about Harry kaping a bad choice at the end of grave peril and ending up evil.
Yes. That's exactly my problem - it's cheapening the free will.Or it is making it more important if your purpose is to create as many universes as you can. Promoting free will becomes suspicious. Uriel!
Or it is making it more important if your purpose is to create as many universes as you can. Promoting free will becomes suspicious. Uriel!
Now the question is whether in finale our Harry will have to gather team of Vampire Harry, Hexenwulf Harry, Denarian Harry and Knight of the Cross Harry to fight against Outsiders multiverse invasion - or maybe he will have to kill all other Harry's like Jet Li to become supreme Harry Dresden - sum of all possible Dresdens - with certain knowledge of all possible outcomes of being Dresden.
Since Jim has sighted in the past the episode of Star Trek called, Mirror Mirror as his inspiration. I will give you another that might apply better. It is another transporter accident, Kirk is split into to men, one, his good gentle side, the other aggressive, cruel, angry... Turns out that one side cannot survive without the other side and he is in real danger of dying if they don't get both halves together again. The moral of the episode was it took both sides of Kirk to make him the man he is. So while cool that "Darthdresden" might pop out, Harry might come to the realization that that aspect of him is as vital as Dresden of the Good Heart.. If he is going to be an effective leader in the BAT, he needs both sides of himself.Mirror Mirror was never about free will and choice. It was a fun look at an evil Trek universe. The episode you offer is about decision making. And very subtly is taking issue with how Spock was constructed as a character. The only episode that dealt with choice and free will was The City On The Edge Of Forever. It looked at how changing one event with the best of intentions creates great evil over time. I like the idea of an evil Harry.
The only episode that dealt with choice and free will was The City On The Edge Of Forever. It looked at how changing one event with the best of intentions creates great evil over time.
Which is precisely what I don't like. So far, nothing in the books gave me the impression that he is so easily corrupted as he fears.
Mirror Mirror was never about free will and choice. It was a fun look at an evil Trek universe. The episode you offer is about decision making. And very subtly is taking issue with how Spock was constructed as a character. The only episode that dealt with choice and free will was The City On The Edge Of Forever. It looked at how changing one event with the best of intentions creates great evil over time. I like the idea of an evil Harry.
How do you get an evil Harry out of that? Yes, "The City on the Edge of Forever" is about changing one event, even with the best of intentions can have evil consequences. However none of the characters in the story were evil. McCoy, Kirk, Spock, or Edith Keeler were evil, on the contrary, Edith was rather saintly and ahead of her time in many of her ideas. That was the problem, when McCoy saved her life she was able to convince those in power to carry through with her ideas. That in of itself wasn't evil, but it made it impossible to fight effectively the great evil brewing at the time, Hitler, thus Hitler wins the war which destroys the future for everyone. Or if Earth still survive, it could never evolve into becoming a member of the Federation of Planets. The moral of that episode could be "the road to hell is often paved with the best of intentions.."The mirror thing has nothing to do with time travel. The river has split up but you don’t move upstream, you move sidewards.
I also have a problem with the idea of an evil Harry as tempting at it is to so many. First of all, is it Harry observing an evil version of himself? If it is, I think that violates some basic laws of time travel. Now it could be that it does happen sending serious ripples of time out everywhere really screwing things up. If it is Harry himself that goes all dark, is he aware of it? And if he is dark, why would he want to change, or go back to where he belongs for that matter?
The mirror thing has nothing to do with time travel. The river has split up but you don’t move upstream, you move sidewards.
And the whole thing is about Harry making different choices.
Compare with how A wizard can have become a warlock which in the dresdenverse can be the result of only one bad choice. A choice that opens up new pathways and closes others. A choice that can look tempting at times.
A free willed choice of that magnitude, the mirror world creating magnitude, especially with magic involved changes who you are and is difficult to reverse.
But in that world, not the one you belong in.. Also you are assuming that Harry would make a different choice in the mirror world, Harry remains who he is, in both worlds. The effects on others might be different, but at the core, Harry is who he is. In Mirror Mirror, while the Kirk in the other world was evil, Kirk remained who he was in both worlds.If Mirror Harry made a important free willed choice different from our Harry then he will be a different Harry. That kind of choices are the choices that shape your soul. That is why the butters tried to stop Harry when he tried to kill Rudolph, that choice would have resulted in a different Harry.
How do you get an evil Harry out of that? Yes, "The City on the Edge of Forever" is about changing one event, even with the best of intentions can have evil consequences. However none of the characters in the story were evil. McCoy, Kirk, Spock, or Edith Keeler were evil, on the contrary, Edith was rather saintly and ahead of her time in many of her ideas. That was the problem, when McCoy saved her life she was able to convince those in power to carry through with her ideas. That in of itself wasn't evil, but it made it impossible to fight effectively the great evil brewing at the time, Hitler, thus Hitler wins the war which destroys the future for everyone. Or if Earth still survive, it could never evolve into becoming a member of the Federation of Planets. The moral of that episode could be "the road to hell is often paved with the best of intentions.."I get Evil Harry because it's cool and I like it.
I also have a problem with the idea of an evil Harry as tempting at it is to so many. First of all, is it Harry observing an evil version of himself? If it is, I think that violates some basic laws of time travel. Now it could be that it does happen sending serious ripples of time out everywhere really screwing things up. If it is Harry himself that goes all dark, is he aware of it? And if he is dark, why would he want to change, or go back to where he belongs for that matter?
If Mirror Harry made a important free willed choice different from our Harry then he will be a different Harry. That kind of choices are the choices that shape your soul. That is why the butters tried to stop Harry when he tried to kill Rudolph, that choice would have resulted in a different Harry.
That is why a wizard who breaks the law is not the same wizard anymore. Sure he has free will and he sometimes can come back but he will be marked by that decision.
So the mirror Harry became evil. Our Harry made different choices so he is a different Harry whatever world he is.
I agree every choice changes the person. I don't think that our Harry can change to be someone as evil as MM seems to be just because one decision. Or two. It has to be really slippery. So, again I hope it is that his choice did not made him evil but more vulnerable to external corruption and that is what make him evil (probably a Denarian??)It is more like every choice in a certain direction makes the next choice in that direction easier and the opposite choice more difficult, especially if magic is involved.
But in that world, not the one you belong in.. Also you are assuming that Harry would make a different choice in the mirror world, Harry remains who he is, in both worlds. The effects on others might be different, but at the core, Harry is who he is. In Mirror Mirror, while the Kirk in the other world was evil, Kirk remained who he was in both worlds.
If Mirror Harry made a important free willed choice different from our Harry then he will be a different Harry. That kind of choices are the choices that shape your soul. That is why the butters tried to stop Harry when he tried to kill Rudolph, that choice would have resulted in a different Harry.
So, again I hope it is that his choice did not made him evil but more vulnerable to external corruption and that is what make him evil (probably a Denarian??)
Also we have seen Harry's condition after Grave Peril and that was when he saved Susan from an even worse fate, she could escape and handle her condition. If he had made the choice the white council had liked him to make and sacrificed Susan for "Peace" his condition would have been much worse.
And Harry is capable of making very bad decisions in such a condition.
Here's the dilemma. If you can't read the future, what good is the exercise of free will? At best you're guessing. What you can do is to be true to yourself. So Harry is the type of man that couldn't walk away. And if he does then he has abandoned what it is to be him.The idea is that you make the decision in line with the person you want to be and then you become that person.
And Harry definitely have some dark, dark potential - people would not faint at his Soulgaze otherwise.
TBH one could agree Harry already made a choice to kill Rudolph. Butters changed consequences not choice itself.But Harry didn't kill Rudolph, in the emotion of the moment, yes, he wanted to and tried. However the Sword of Faith by giving him a good burn sobered him up from his emotion. In that moment he then chose not to do it, and felt shame that he had tried to do it.
I agree every choice changes the person. I don't think that our Harry can change to be someone as evil as MM seems to be just because one decision. Or two. It has to be really slippery. So, again I hope it is that his choice did not made him evil but more vulnerable to external corruption and that is what make him evil (probably a Denarian??)
I think the thing that might start to radically change Harry would be if whatever decision he made differently in Grave Peril led to a decision to become the Winter Knight after the events of Summer Knight. Even if the White Council didn't try to turn Harry over to the Red Court, that doesn't mean that Mab couldn't find a way to get Harry to act as her emissary. If Harry decided to put Lloyd Slate out of his misery he could have become the Winter Knight before he was ready to handle everything that comes with the job.Yes, and you also have to look at motive for the choice in the first place. Harry didn't want the job as Winter Knight, he was forced to make the best of several very bad choices. It is also strange how the White Council is so quick to condemn Harry, when as a rule Harry thinks very highly of the White Council, in spite of everything.
The idea is that you make the decision in line with the person you want to be and then you become that person.Except Harry has never wanted to be the "Evil Wizard of the West."
"Shame, child, is for those who fail to live up to the ideal of what they believe they should be."Spoken by someone who is no longer human. We know that in that aspect Harry is very human and feels lots of shame when he doesn't live up to what he feels he should be.
Or they are evil themselves.
That is an assumption, or they might see an avenging angel, which would also make them faint.
But Harry didn't kill Rudolph, in the emotion of the moment, yes, he wanted to and tried. However the Sword of Faith by giving him a good burn sobered him up from his emotion. In that moment he then chose not to do it, and felt shame that he had tried to do it.At the end he did not do it even if he needed some help. The choice is important in combination with the consequences and in the dresdenverse the consequences are all important.
While I agree that choices can change a person, I don't think it is all that simple. For starters is there a WOJ saying that MM is going to be about evil Harry?I think so. It is the kind of Harry that kills other Harries to get an alibi. That is pretty evil.
We've already been down that Denarian road with Lasciel, he didn't become evil as a result, he did have good people around him that made him realize what was happening, Butters and Murphy.. But if Harry had really gone postal what they told him wouldn't have done any good. That's why the emphasis on his father and that Harry had inherited Malcolm's good heart. Harry will never go totally dark because of that.The story wouldn’t be interesting if there was no danger and mirror Harry has no plot armor. Harry could have gone bad.
Yes, and you also have to look at motive for the choice in the first place. Harry didn't want the job as Winter Knight, he was forced to make the best of several very bad choices. It is also strange how the White Council is so quick to condemn Harry,We are sitting inside Harry’s head, they are not. Harry tries to do his duty as a knight but for Eb that duty is just a trap. Their whole world view is build to suspect someone like Harry is now.
when as a rule Harry thinks very highly of the White Council, in spite of everything.Except Harry has never wanted to be the "Evil Wizard of the West."So he is not. He is going to use his position to help people and he is going to make a difference.
Spoken by someone who is no longer human.That does not mean she is wrong. The kind of person Harry wants to be is just different from Lea.
We know that in that aspect Harry is very human and feels lots of shame when he doesn't live up to what he feels he should be.Which should drive him to make better choices.
That does not mean she is wrong. The kind of person Harry wants to be is just different from Lea.Which is why Harry will never fully go down that road, because he doesn't want to.. There you have it, free will, a choice.
Quote
Or they are evil themselves.
At the end he did not do it even if he needed some help. The choice is important in combination with the consequences and in the dresdenverse the consequences are all important.Yes, they are, it wasn't without consequences, Harry kept mentioning the burn. The burn was a reminder of what he almost did and what it would do to him. He came out a better man for it, not a worse one.
I think so. It is the kind of Harry that kills other Harries to get an alibi. That is pretty evil.
The story wouldn’t be interesting if there was no danger and mirror Harry has no plot armor. Harry could have gone bad.Or way too predictable, every poster with few exceptions goes on and on about how fun to see a dark Harry.. So if we all know how the story is going to go how interesting is that? As far as going bad goes, Harry has been on a knife's edge from Storm Front on, it's Star Wars and the Force all over again..
Which should drive him to make better choices.
That is my point, MM Harry is just too evil. It is difficult (for me) to imagine that our Harry could end being that unless he has external influences, but of course, we will see what JB has in mind.Under normal circumstances yes but in the Dresden verse those mechanisms are there. Decisions involving magic are so much more significant. They can create what the council is afraid for, secret warlock Harry. So afraid that they overreact which only hastens the process.
And Lasciel is still a possibility. Tempting and even more dangerous if his friends desert him. Relying on necromancy is probably also not good for you.
This Harry's connection with the coin is gone, if anything is left of the shadow, it is Lash.But is mirror Harry’s connection to the coin gone?
But is mirror Harry’s connection to the coin gone?Maybe not, but that is the alternate Harry, isn't it?
Maybe not, but that is the alternate Harry, isn't it?Exactly. The discussion was how mirror Harry could have become so evil and if the seeds for that are still in our Harry.
Here's the dilemma. If you can't read the future, what good is the exercise of free will? At best you're guessing. What you can do is to be true to yourself. So Harry is the type of man that couldn't walk away. And if he does then he has abandoned what it is to be him.
That is an assumption, or they might see an avenging angel, which would also make them faint.
But Harry didn't kill Rudolph, in the emotion of the moment, yes, he wanted to and tried. However the Sword of Faith by giving him a good burn sobered him up from his emotion. In that moment he then chose not to do it, and felt shame that he had tried to do it.
That is my point, MM Harry is just too evil. It is difficult (for me) to imagine that our Harry could end being that unless he has external influences, but of course, we will see what JB has in mind.
but would Bradley then act as he acted?It happened without warning, he had no clue that such a think as a soul gaze was even possible, plus the atmosphere was tense in the extreme. So good or evil, what Bradly saw would scared the hell out of him, or at least startled. If he saw what the cornerhounds saw according to Harry, that is scary.
He would feel such shame after killing Rudolph anyway TBH if there was no Butters to stop him.
But why we assume Mirror!Harry is natural Harry, and our Harry splited history by acting against himself?Any decision that isn't against one's nature doesn't create an alternate reality according to Jim. So the "natural" decision would be a decision that isn't against one's nature and wouldn't be an exercise of free will.
Or should we assume each decision creates sort of fake universes that are copies of original one - with fake starting decisions or something?
Or do you mean all decisions were against nature - and all Dresdens are fake or smth? But then why not NATURAL decision?
all possible Dresdens exists.In my theory, a limited number of Dresdens exist. As few as two, but maybe a lot. Definitely less than all imaginable Dresdens.
That is my point, MM Harry is just too evil. It is difficult (for me) to imagine that our Harry could end being that unless he has external influences, but of course, we will see what JB has in mind.Everybody has external influences.
But my overall theory about why MM Harry is evil is TBH necromancy.IMO, NecroHarry would probably be the coolest evil Harry.
Any decision that isn't against one's nature doesn't create an alternate reality according to Jim. So the "natural" decision would be a decision that isn't against one's nature and wouldn't be an exercise of free will.
Without exercising choice Harry would have done X in GP. But he exercised free will in that book and did Y. In MM, Harry exercised free will and did Z. Y was a good path. Z was a good path. There is no universe in which Harry did X. There may be universes in which Harry did something other than X, Y, and Z, but we don't know because we don't have any indication of a third universe.
On the male gaze thing, I think that one has to ignore a great many character descriptions to reach a lot of the "male gaze" descriptions of characters that appear in the books. For example, in DB several female characters appear. The only one that gets the male gaze treatment is the one trying to seduce Harry. (And maybe the naked jogger, I don't really remember).
In my theory, a limited number of Dresdens exist. As few as two, but maybe a lot. Definitely less than all imaginable Dresdens.
Agreed, but if he had killed him that bell cannot be unrung..
Consequences could not. But from perspective of Dresden soul and character however paradoxically it can seem it could be better. It could push him to stronger spiritual jihad for instance, and stronger grasp of control, and overall better morality.
Is there a WOJ to that? That would be weird to me, considering free will sort of is part of our nature, it's what defines mortals in Dresdenverse.It's basically what Uriel says in The Warrior short story. Harry comments that Uriel's statement sounds a lot like predestination. Uriel responds that free will is very seldomly used. There's certainly WoJ on what free will is, but I don't have any specific one in mind.
Using free will as against of own nature in this regard is weird.
But why do we assume there is not like basic universe where Harry did X?Because if there was, then free will is greatly cheapened, and the whole point of my theory/head canon is to avoid that.
Also - overall it seems to me Dresden had not done anything against his very character in GP.I agree, but we'd have to know what decision was made in the mirrorverse to start making good guesses as to what the different options were.
But then you seems to consider that you "exercise" free will only when you act against yourself.Not against yourself, but against your nature. Acting against your nature isn't the same thing as acting against yourself. Acting in accordance with your nature is often detrimental. An addict acting against his nature is a very good thing.
Because if there was, then free will is greatly cheapened, and the whole point of my theory/head canon is to avoid that.
The ability to exercise free will is what defines mortals in the Dresdenverse. The use of that ability is different than possession of that ability. Uriel says the use is rare.
Not against yourself, but against your nature. Acting against your nature isn't the same thing as acting against yourself. Acting in accordance with your nature is often detrimental. An addict acting against his nature is a very good thing.
That's quite odd definition of nature, I have to say.I would say acting against your nature is acting against your emotional makeup, against your instincts. It is based on the idea that animals (and supernatural beings) have only instincts and never act against their nature while humans are unique in having a soul, free will (and maybe superior intelligence) and can act against their animal base instinct because of higher motivations and because they want to be more than their animal self.
Harry has chosen how he would live. Making choices which damage that perception of self would change him for the worse.
Harry has chosen how he would live. Making choices which damage that perception of self would change him for the worse.That gets us back to Lea definition of shame from changes.
I would say acting against your nature is acting against your emotional makeup, against your instincts. It is based on the idea that animals (and supernatural beings) have only instincts and never act against their nature while humans are unique in having a soul, free will (and maybe superior intelligence) and can act against their animal base instinct because of higher motivations and because they want to be more than their animal self.
Harry has chosen how he would live. Making choices which damage that perception of self would change him for the worse.
ndeed it seems to work that way - still if choice is possible - that is when our intellect shows us possibility of choice - as there are many actions done on instinct when such choice is just not presented to self, then following your emotional instincts is still a choice - choice of not enforcing own will over own feelings. If there is real posibility to make different choices - then following your guts is always one of them - there is no CHOICELESS option as Bad Alias seems to suggest.
Is it[free will cheapened]? I mean if any time free will can be used - all possible itterations creates new universe then it seems logical one of those itterations is - ABSTAIN from using it - and going with the flow. Not doing something when you can is ALSO a choice in itself.You said so.
I must say Butcher teasing multiverse is the WORST.Emphasis added.
I can accept few splited timeline, but when according to WOJ each choice split reality it cheapens free will imensely. I mean literally that makes free will some bizzare mechanism to produce more alternative universes, not a real power of choice :P
Indeed, but he also point to several uses of it by Dresden alone in "Warrior".Who said Harry seldom uses his free will? Humans seldomly use free will.
So "seldom" used by him does not seems to be "rare" - just well - way less often that people thinks.
That's quite odd definition of nature, I have to say.I'd say your's is an odd definition of against. It's often in one's best interest to act against one's nature.
I would say acting against your nature is acting against your emotional makeup, against your instincts. It is based on the idea that animals (and supernatural beings) have only instincts and never act against their nature while humans are unique in having a soul, free will (and maybe superior intelligence) and can act against their animal base instinct because of higher motivations and because they want to be more than their animal self.I disagree with the intellect over emotion/instinct definition of free will. I'd more say free will is the ability to actually make a choice as opposed to a deterministic and mechanical view of reality in which we just respond to cause with effect, whether emotionally or intellectually.
there is no CHOICELESS option as Bad Alias seems to suggest.I'm suggesting that in Harry's world as laid out by Jim Butcher, people can not exercise their free will because that's what Uriel seems to say in The Warrior.
"That smells an awful lot like predestination to me. What if those people choose something different?
"It's a complex issue," Jake admitted. "But think of the course of the future as, oh, flowing water. If you know the lay of the land, you can make a good guess where it's going. Now, someone can always come along and dig a ditch and change that flow of water-but honestly, you'd be shocked how seldom people truly choose to exercise their will within their lives."
each choice split reality[,] it cheapens free will imensely. I mean literally that makes free will some bizzare mechanism to produce more alternative universes, not a real power of choice
Well indeed. I'm just pointing that following "gut" is just as choice-y as overcoming it, and if choice is possible, like really possible it should count as splitting decision.
I disagree with the intellect over emotion/instinct definition of free will. I'd more say free will is the ability to actually make a choice as opposed to a deterministic and mechanical view of reality in which we just respond to cause with effect, whether emotionally or intellectually.It seems inevitable because emotions are the expression of your nature which is linked with your spiritual power which is linked to your magic. Magic is strongly linked with emotions.
I'm suggesting that in Harry's world as laid out by Jim Butcher, people can not exercise their free will because that's what Uriel seems to say in The Warrior.All humans can but they don't often do so. That is what he said.
Now, one can argue what Uriel means by "truly" exercising free will is that acting in accord with one's nature, while an exercise of free will, isn't any different than if one didn't have free will in the first place.
WoJ on Free Will Creating Parallel Universes:(click to show/hide)
If everything is a choice and every choice results in a reality where the consequences of that choice plays out, does free will even exist? Every choice must be made, so no choice is volitional. If it's not volitional, it's not a choice. Thus if everything is a choice and:
Emphasis added.
I'd say your's is an odd definition of against. It's often in one's best interest to act against one's nature.
I disagree with the intellect over emotion/instinct definition of free will. I'd more say free will is the ability to actually make a choice as opposed to a deterministic and mechanical view of reality in which we just respond to cause with effect, whether emotionally or intellectually.
If everything is a choice and every choice results in a reality where the consequences of that choice plays out, does free will even exist? Every choice must be made, so no choice is volitional. If it's not volitional, it's not a choice. Thus if everything is a choice and:
It seems inevitable because emotions are the expression of your nature which is linked with your spiritual power which is linked to your magic. Magic is strongly linked with emotions.
If Dresden using free will means all possible uses are enforced ...I've repeatedly said some number of universes are created that are less than all possible choices. To oversimplify my head canon, there are two universes created by every act of free will. One where the actor chooses to act one way and another where they choose to act in a different way. Each choice is a choice to act beyond and in opposition to what an otherwise accurate deterministic model of the Dresdenverse would have predicted.
If it shows us alternatives then neither is like NATURAL and DETERMINED because choice was given, and neither is certain till choice is made.Determinists would say that the appearance of choice is an illusion and all biology, reason, thinking, etc. just boils down to physics.
But if you have two choices against nature - all shall happen each time you use even one of them. And that's still cheapens what Dresden is doing - because for every choice there are other choices.What if there are thousands of possible choices and two universes result?
The problem with Free Will as Jim uses it, is that it is contrived and not subject to analysis. Thousands of choices got Harry to whatever point he gets to. By the time you get to whatever the event is, there really aren't any choices left to make, assuming that Dresden is who he is. You've already made them prior to that instant. Which is what Uriel is saying.
Carry on.
I've repeatedly said some number of universes are created that are less than all possible choices. To oversimplify my head canon, there are two universes created by every act of free will. One where the actor chooses to act one way and another where they choose to act in a different way. Each choice is a choice to act beyond and in opposition to what an otherwise accurate deterministic model of the Dresdenverse would have predicted.
Determinists would say that the appearance of choice is an illusion and all biology, reason, thinking, etc. just boils down to physics.
What if there are thousands of possible choices and two universes result?
The problem with Free Will as Jim uses it, is that it is contrived and not subject to analysis. Thousands of choices got Harry to whatever point he gets to. By the time you get to whatever the event is, there really aren't any choices left to make, assuming that Dresden is who he is. You've already made them prior to that instant. Which is what Uriel is saying.
Calculation and thought flickered through those green eyes, faster than I could follow. “Ah, yes. I see,” Mother Summer said. “So many new futures unwinding.” “Too many bright ones,” Mother Winter said sullenly. “Even you must think better that than empty night.”Vadderung describes another form of branching, that of the paradox..
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 329). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I grunted. “So if I go back in time and kill my grandfather, what happens?” “He beats you senseless, I suspect,” Vadderung said, his gaze direct. Oh, man. Vadderung knew about Ebenezar. Which meant that either he was higher in the old man’s circle of trust than I was, or he had access to an astoundingly scary pool of information. “You know what I mean,” I said. “Paradox? Universe goes poof?” “If it works like that, I’ve never seen it, as evidenced by the fact that . . .” He spread his hands. “Here it is. I suspect a different form of apocalypse happens.” I frowned. “Like what?” “A twinned universe,” Vadderung said. “A new parallel reality, identical except for that event. One in which you never existed, and one in which you failed to kill your grandfather.” I pursed my lips. “That . . . doesn’t really end well for me in either case.”So between what Mother Summer showed Harry and what Vadderung theorizes that there could be thousands of branches with Harry in them. My internal canon would be that to get to those other branches that they would have to be close to Harry Prime to be able to get there. So for instance, there might be a universe where Harry never manifested his magic, but is unreachable since it's a low probability event and is too far from this timeline. There might be a universe where Susan never became aware of the events at the party, she never becomes infected, and the whole event never triggers the Vampire war.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 215). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Also it assumes each time there is possibility to choice there are two options - both of which are unnatural. So not one choice against own nature, but also for some reason it's dark twin.Why only two choices and why is one a "dark twin." I guess one is almost always going to result in an at least marginally better world than the other because it's hard to imagine to choices with different but equal results.
It's like - natural choice is to run, but you stay and fight - you create option B. OK, but why other options are created? What option C when you join your enemies which is even less plausible? Why would it happen at all.Let's say it's one's nature to freeze. If one were to choose to act instead, they can choose to run, fight, or talk one's way out of the situation. If one chooses to run, they can choose to run in any of 360 degrees in all sorts of different manners.
But we know there are much more universes due to WOJ.But we don't know how many universes result from a choice.
Mirror Mirror is supposed to be about evil Harry killing other Harry's. Or am I mistaken? That would imply many splits.Correct. Jim has also explicitly stated that there are a bunch of realities.
Hard to say.
As I said I'm not a fan of this True Love thing - I'd much prefer it to be sort of mental duel with such vampire than some almost excuse random category. With Skavis and Malvora you have to prove your virtue to burn those bastards.
Dunno. I somehow have a feeling he can stay fridged till BAT, because really I think Butcher had little idea what to do with Thomas overall.
Yes. For instance we could get longer introductions and epilogues to series giving us better vision of what Dresden was doing between books - that's about as much place we needed. (And no Jim no sane reader would pick tome 16 of your series, and just run with it mindlessly. If he does he will notice something is wrong - like you can put list of all the books at the beginning or something).
DO NOT DESCRIBE THEM. Like really. Describe new things. Introduce new things.
Mirror Mirror is supposed to be about evil Harry killing other Harry's. Or am I mistaken? That would imply many splits.
Jim has implied a statistical theory of branching. When Harry learns the name of Nemesis Mother Summer says that it creates many new possibilities.
So between what Mother Summer showed Harry and what Vadderung theorizes that there could be thousands of branches with Harry in them. My internal canon would be that to get to those other branches that they would have to be close to Harry Prime to be able to get there. So for instance, there might be a universe where Harry never manifested his magic, but is unreachable since it's a low probability event and is too far from this timeline. There might be a universe where Susan never became aware of the events at the party, she never becomes infected, and the whole event never triggers the Vampire war.
Why only two choices and why is one a "dark twin." I guess one is almost always going to result in an at least marginally better world than the other because it's hard to imagine to choices with different but equal results.
Let's say it's one's nature to freeze. If one were to choose to act instead, they can choose to run, fight, or talk one's way out of the situation. If one chooses to run, they can choose to run in any of 360 degrees in all sorts of different manners.
But we don't know how many universes result from a choice.
I just had a thought about everything Harry does in GP being in character or in line with his nature. There's one thing he did that I think wasn't. Telling Susan that he loved her. I don't see how not telling her results in Harry surviving, but I really think if anything was out of character for Harry, it was that. Recall that Michael had to drag it out of Harry at the very beginning of the book. He didn't want to say that he loved Susan to Michael, who he told about Elaine.
No, I don't think MM is The One. I understood that MM Harry would summon a Harry (which will be ours) to act as a decoy. Only one, as far as I understood.
Don't look at it as competition.
All Whamps are supernatural hot.
Only Raith feeds on lust. Raith feeds super easily- other Whamps need to do work to feed- but are most vulnerable, since true love would be most common.
Burning could just be failure to latch. Less technically protection, more "that access port is already in use"
Alienates new readers. In theory, each book should be sufficiently self-contained to be picked up and read by someone off the street.
Your being an early fan is your problem, not anyone else's
But there is assumption that choice always mean two options.Why? Or perhaps by whom? I don't assume there's only two options.
That's quite problemtic. Panic freeze is not even on a same level as any voluntary action.I'm not going to argue over that. It illustrates the point that there's almost never really a choice between just two things. Even most "binary" choices are more of a spectrum.
It's like assuming you can have free will to walk when someone cut off your legs for me.
So it's one choice but you get like dozen identical universes (for a moment) with the same choice made?No.
You: But if you have two choices against nature - all shall happen each time you use even one of them. And that's still cheapens what Dresden is doing - because for every choice there are other choices.
Me: What if there are thousands of possible choices and two universes result?
You: But we know there are much more universes due to WOJ.
Me: But we don't know how many universes result from a choice.
But would that mean that admitting to Michael also was a split.Why? Dresden could easily be willing to admit it to Michael that he loves Susan after Michael pressuring him to while not be willing to say it to Susan.
If there's dark choice I can see Harry making in a GP ...I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a dark choice.
How will the world be different if Harry had made one choice differently.I get the impression what separates MirrorHarry from our Harry is just one choice and the consequences of that choice. I also get the impression that it won't be a choice that Harry would have thought was that monumental. Kind of how Morris keeps saying MM will be more like TOS: The City on the Edge of Forever instead of TOS: Mirror, Mirror.
...
It’s going to be a different character because it’s going to be Dresden as he would have been if he made one choice differently, and the fallout from that effect on his life.
There's theory it was not a first time, and Darth Dresden is playing a Kemmler.Ah, ok. Well, we will have to wait and see
I get it (although considering how things are repeated WITHIN one book cannot be defended by this claim).
But I consider it overall foolish theory. Especially for Dresden Files - book with apocalyptic metaplot planned since 2000, tighter and tighter every book. Any sane reader after noticing he reads book 17, would well change a book. It's like starting Lord of the Rings from Return of the King.