ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Starshine on January 23, 2012, 07:01:20 AM
-
I hope Im not doing anything wrong here. I was looking through some old theads and saw this one and was going to respond but I got a warning message saying it's better to start a new thread. Im not sure how to do that and still quote from the old thread, so I just cut and paste and tried to use colors to differentiate the posters.
This is jman's original post:
Quote from jman
Re: Uriel and Lash
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2011, 07:53:03 PM »
Quote
Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the attack on Arctis Tor by the Black Council was to try to get Molly back. IIRC, it was a fairly recent theory under the title of something like "Proven Guilty Revisited" on the forums (link (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26853.msg1143979.html#msg1143979)). It proposed the idea that the Black Council's entire purpose in PG was to get Molly onto their side. In fact, she would have met a BC operative / pawn, Madrigal Raith at SplatterCon, who could have easily controlled her, had the fetches not showed up. It further theorized that Mab sent the fetches to disrupt the BC's plans by getting Dresden's attention (and that of the White Council), making the BC's plan all the more riskier. As well, the fetches could have been sent to kill Molly (think hobs & The Archive in SmF), hence her being used as the beacon OR to get Dresden to rescue her, discover her talent, and take her on as his apprentice, making her a weapon against the BC. Unfortunately, Mab underestimated just how much the BC wanted Molly (or wanted Molly not to be Dresden's apprentice), and the BC attacked Arctis Tor to get her back (possibly with some bad information on Mab's current condition/health). However, Mab just used them to further her own purpose by retreating, with Molly, into the WellSpring Garden/Prison (I made the name up) that the BC would be very stupid to try to get into, while they cleared her personal defenses out of Dresden's way. So they ran away or got beat back; either way, they weren't around when Dresden stormed in, killed the fetch, and saved Molly. Mab got what she wanted, except for the little bit of fire damage to the fountain of power. She should have had Dresden Insurance.
And this is part of Mira's comments on Jman's post:
This all brings me back to jman 101's theory about the Black Council wanting Molly, that they wanted her as a recruit for their side, but why? The young Korean kid that loses his head at the beginning of Proven Guilty appeared to have just as much talent to use his mind on others as Molly, why not him? Or was it just that the Wardens caught up to him before the Black Council did? Actually I do not think so, I do think however that yes, the BC wanted Molly, but not so much as a recruit, but as a way to create divisions in the enemy.. I find it very interesting that Summer was eager to lend a hand in the rescue, though Lea thought it would piss off Winter. That Mab was also present in the Garden and winked at Harry. Harry tossed the light down the wellspring.
And this is my comments now:
I like jman's theory. I was never clear on what was really going on in that book, but I assumed we'd find out eventually. His theory really makes a lot of sense - esp about the BC wanting to turn Molly. Of course they'd want Molly! She was halfway there already, she wouldnt need more than a little push and she'd make a great recruit for them because of who she was. Her family, Harry, Forthill , Sanya - they'd all trust her, let her close. Wouldnt be suspicious. Unlike the Korean kid, she had access to some of the BC's worst enemies. If she'd been trained by them to use her mind control powers, she could control them all. At the very least push them in the direction the BC wanted them to go. She'd be worth her weight in gold to the BC.
And it really helps make sense out of Mab's actions too. Of course she winked at Harry. He was doing exactly what she wanted him to do. I have to read it again with this in mind..
Thanks jman! It's a great theory!
Currated in a link in the quote -Serack
-
As to the technical issue, what I usually do is open two tabs, one showing the thread I'm creating or posting in, and the other showing the thread I want to copy something from. In the second tab, I hit the "Insert Quote" button at the top of the comment I want to quote, which creates a Post Reply window in that thread with the quoted text pre-formatted. I then copy and paste all of the formatted text into the editing window in the first tab, close the second tab, and continue with what I was going to write.
The formatted text is useful, because it includes a link to the source of the quote immediately above the quote, and that link can easily be to a different thread than the current one.
I think jman's theory may be sound, but teasing out BC motivations will be seriously difficult due to minimal information before CD comes out. I believe JB has said that the BC will show its hand much more clearly in the next book.
-
Thanks for the tip - I'm still learning my way around these boards. :)
-
BC may have wanted Molly to twist the knife in Michael. If they turn her to the coin then Michael may have to kill her. Could break his faith in God if he has to kill his Denarian daughter.
-
Something else that has been pointed out to me on the forums (bouncing theories off each other is so much fun) is that the lady who is running Splattercon!!! (I think she was named Sandra Marling but I'm not sure atm) met Molly while she was doing court ordered volunteering at a homeless shelter about a year ago.
This is significant because:
- She is the same woman that gave Molly the idea of using fear to control someone with an addiction
- Coincidentally there was a Blampire affiliated with the Black Council working out of a homeless shelter about a year ago.
As to technical tips, if a topic is locked, you can't pull pregenerated quote code from it. It isn't impossible to generate a quote header with the link info embedded though. AcornArmy taught me a method that is prohibitively difficult, because one of the input parameters is how many seconds after some arbitrary time in the 1970's the post was written.
If you are developing a long, thought out, theory post with lots of quotes from the WoJ section, shoot me a whisper with links to the posts you want quote code for and I'll be glad to try to shoot you the quote code.
-
P.S. could you link to that old topic please.
NVM, I found it, and it's now locked, so pulling quote code from it is impossible.
-
Boohyah
I found the Topic that jman101 was referring to. It's probably the best original theory posted in the past year or so IMO.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26853.msg1143979.html#msg1143979
I've gotta go archive it on my hard drive!
-
I think it was a possible ploy by Mab to get Harry to witness what happened at Arctis Tor and report back to the Council about the use of Hell Fire etc. I also think that Summer may have also played a part in it, I think that both Summer and Winter do not want the Denarians messing around in their affairs.
-
Boohyah
I found the Topic that jman101 was referring to. It's probably the best original theory posted in the past year or so IMO.
I see - so this idea was originally Knnn's? Well, whoever first came up with it - kudos to you - I think it's great - it explains so much and it all hangs together.
Other things also click in place to support Knnn's theory - the link with the homeless shelter, Molly originally going to meet Crane. None of this did I pick up when I read it, but once it's pointed out - it all makes sense and it's really clear.
I also like Knnn's idea of Molly being an Outsider-bane. Yet another reason the BC would want her. And why they'd go to any lengths to stop her becoming WC.
A corollary of this theory would be that the Gatekeeper, while he might have his own agenda in all this, can't be a part of the BC. If he was, he never would have warned Harry there was black magic in Chicago. Maybe he's not Grey Council, but in his own way he's opposing the BC too.
One more thought - someone in that thread you quoted asked why Mab would have sent all her troops to Summer's borders if she thought BC were planning to attack Arctis Tor. IMO Mab wanted to know who her enemies were. The BC has always been rather anonymous/nebulous - working in the shadows. I think Mab wanted to put faces to them so she'd know exactly who to destroy. So she took something they really wanted [Molly] and sent her army away to entice the BC [or at least some of them] to come out in the open for once. It worked to some extent - we know one of the Denarians showed up - he must be one of the major players. And know she'll know who he is.
I dont think this gamble was as dangerous as it might at first appear. Others have pointed out - [1] Arctis Tor was her home and the seat of her power - very unlikely any enemy would have the power to defeat her there and [2] she could have recalled her army in a flash if it proved necessary [which apparently it didnt].
I just love this theory - it explains so much. So Knnn - take a bow!
-
I also like Knnn's idea of Molly being an Outsider-bane. Yet another reason the BC would want her. And why they'd go to any lengths to stop her becoming WC.
My reply in that topic at #11 includes the WoJ that we have on the likely hood of other outsiderbanes other than Harry, and it doesn't strongly support this idea.
A corollary of this theory would be that the Gatekeeper, while he might have his own agenda in all this, can't be a part of the BC. If he was, he never would have warned Harry there was black magic in Chicago. Maybe he's not Grey Council, but in his own way he's opposing the BC too.
Something that doesn't get tossed around here too often (well maybe in other words, by neurovore), but I kinda doubt it's as simple as White Council, Grey, council, and Black Council. There's bound to be opposing goals within any conspiracy in the background. Although they might never be fleshed out, who knows.
One more thought - someone in that thread you quoted asked why Mab would have sent all her troops to Summer's borders if she thought BC were planning to attack Arctis Tor. IMO Mab wanted to know who her enemies were. The BC has always been rather anonymous/nebulous - working in the shadows. I think Mab wanted to put faces to them so she'd know exactly who to destroy. So she took something they really wanted [Molly] and sent her army away to entice the BC [or at least some of them] to come out in the open for once. It worked to some extent - we know one of the Denarians showed up - he must be one of the major players. And know she'll know who he is.
The longs standing theory WRT to Mab's motivations for keeping her armies at the boarders is that she is stuck in some kind of bargain with some members of the "Black Council" that she managed to work around by using Harry as a proxy when she dragging Molly to Arctis Tor. knnn's Theory is kind of a fleshing out/alternate explanation of that longer standing theory.
I dont think this gamble was as dangerous as it might at first appear. Others have pointed out - [1] Arctis Tor was her home and the seat of her power - very unlikely any enemy would have the power to defeat her there and [2] she could have recalled her army in a flash if it proved necessary [which apparently it didnt].
The DFRPG is not quite cannon, but more like if someone from the boards got to sit in Billy's head and write out all the theories while getting to ask Harry for reluctant opinions on them, but in one of the books for the RPG is a sort of power level structure of something like seven tiers. The first 3 tiers were what I payed attention to and they go something like this.
- Rarified power level that doesn't act much nowadays including TWG
- Archangels, Lucifer, the "Mothers"
- The "Queens," Ferrovax, the Erlking...
-
My reply in that topic at #11 includes the WoJ that we have on the likely hood of other outsiderbanes other than Harry, and it doesn't strongly support this idea.
Let me ask a general question about WoJ - does he never change his mind? Writing is usually a fluid process. You can suddenly wake up with a great idea - even if it's not the way you were originally planning to go. Anything he said recently is probably what he intends to do [now], but older quotes might only show where his mind was tending then - 5 years ago, 7 years ago. Im only asking. Or is he the kind of writer who maps the whole series out beforehand and never deviates.
The longs standing theory WRT to Mab's motivations for keeping her armies at the boarders is that she is stuck in some kind of bargain with some members of the "Black Council" that she managed to work around by using Harry as a proxy when she dragging Molly to Arctis Tor.
I like Knnn's theory better. That she did this to point a spotlight on Molly and prevent the BC from subverting her, and also [I think] to try and entice some of the senior BC out in the open to better identify them. Both strategies worked - and that's how I see Mab - a real chess player. And Knnn's explanation fits the facts we know from the book better IMO.
The problem with the LST is why would Mab enter 'some kind of bargain' with the BC after what they tried to do to Lea. She'd be furious with them [which is why she interfered in their plans for Molly] and also extremely wary - she saw what deals with them did to Lea. I cant believe Mab would be that stupid.
The DFRPG is not quite cannon, but more like if someone from the boards got to sit in Billy's head and write out all the theories while getting to ask Harry for reluctant opinions on them, but in one of the books for the RPG is a sort of power level structure of something like seven tiers. The first 3 tiers were what I payed attention to and they go something like this.
- Rarified power level that doesn't act much nowadays including TWG
- Archangels, Lucifer, the "Mothers"
- The "Queens," Ferrovax, the Erlking...
Interesting - so the dragons have as much power as the Queens? And Michael killed one? Im surprised more Denarians arent dead. :)
And PS - thanks for the tips on how to quote - It worked!
-
The Swords appear to work by negating the opponent's power rather than making the wielder powerful, the Denarians are still around because the Knights appear to be against the idea of calling in backup (despite the fact that they could call on plenty of things wronged by the Denarians) and because the Denarians have mooks who appear to be dangerous in large numbers.
-
The problem with the LST is why would Mab enter 'some kind of bargain' with the BC after what they tried to do to Lea. She'd be furious with them [which is why she interfered in their plans for Molly] and also extremely wary - she saw what deals with them did to Lea. I cant believe Mab would be that stupid.
Who said she lost in that bargain? Sure it made life more difficult but she can work around that and at the end she will probably the one getting most out of it.
Interesting - so the dragons have as much power as the Queens? And Michael killed one? Im surprised more Denarians arent dead. :)
And PS - thanks for the tips on how to quote - It worked!
The dragon Michael killed was not as powerfull as ferrofax. I believe there is WOJ about that as well.
-
The dragon Michael killed was not as powerfull as ferrofax. I believe there is WOJ about that as well.
Yes, the Dragon Michael killed was stated to be the weakest of the remaining Dragons IIRC.
-
Who said she lost in that bargain? Sure it made life more difficult but she can work around that and at the end she will probably the one getting most out of it.
I still dont get it - what bargain exactly would Mab have made? This theory all seems so nebulous compared to Knnn's which clearly spells out what was going on and why. And it all fits. That's why I like it.
My objection was that - given what happened to Lea - I cant see Mab making any kind of bargain with the BC. She wouldnt trust them and she'd be in no mood to make bargains.
-
I just love this theory - it explains so much. So Knnn - take a bow!
Thank you! {takes bow}. I am quite proud of the this theory. Hopefully, it will actually turn out to be correct ;)
If you look further down in the thread you'll find a few (minor?) weakness of the theory (e.g. the description of Harry's sensations during his "deflect fetches" spell - pointed out by Serack I believe), so there might still be room to improve on it. Still, it's currently my favorite working hypothesis of what was really going on at the end of PG.
I should also point out that the rival theory that Serack mentions (and to be completely fair, it's one of the inspirations for this theory) belongs to Neuro (link here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,10792.html)). It's the one the famously caused Jim to exclaim:
Dear god. Are you a CIA analyst or something?
...I think we all aspire to such greatness. ;D
P.S. Serack -- thank you for the endorsement. With you being an acknowledged "WOJ Rockstar" yourself, any compliment you give is one I will savor.
-
I still dont get it - what bargain exactly would Mab have made? This theory all seems so nebulous compared to Knnn's which clearly spells out what was going on and why. And it all fits. That's why I like it.
My objection was that - given what happened to Lea - I cant see Mab making any kind of bargain with the BC. She wouldnt trust them and she'd be in no mood to make bargains.
Trust is not necessary for a bargain with the Fae because breaking a bargain with the Fae will give them power over you. Mab could very well have hoped for the other parties betrayal. Compare with Harrys deal with Nicodemus in small favor that counted on Nicodemus betrayal. And Fae love making bargains. If the BC had something really interesting to offer she would go for it. If it fitted into her purpose. Trying to trick her would backfire on a big scale though.
-
Let me ask a general question about WoJ - does he never change his mind? Writing is usually a fluid process. You can suddenly wake up with a great idea - even if it's not the way you were originally planning to go. Anything he said recently is probably what he intends to do [now], but older quotes might only show where his mind was tending then - 5 years ago, 7 years ago. Im only asking. Or is he the kind of writer who maps the whole series out beforehand and never deviates.
I really enjoy answering questions like this one.
I started writing up a potential topic discussing this very thing, so sorry if my response to this topic is a bit long, it’s something I’ve put a lot of thought into. This section of the WoJ compilation (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21772.msg947686.html#msg947686) is my main reference for my answer to your question
Jim started the series as a class project when he was in grad school back in the Mid 90’s. Up to that point none of his novels were worth publishing, and he had been ignoring lots of good advice from his writing teacher, and that semester he decided to do everything the way she says to prove that her techniques would suck for him. The result was Storm Front. As he says, "I guess I showed her." The class was actually about how to write a successful series, and after writing the first couple chapters of Storm Front and having the prof, deem them publishable, he went home and mapped out his idea for a series of 20 books with a 3 book capstone "Big Apocalyptic Trilogy." Apparently he still has an old notebook in his closet somewhere with the original notes from that class.
The way I understand it, that outline included approximately one sentence ideas for each of the 20 books, and (I think) a general outline of certain overarching story threads he wanted to weave into those 20 novels. My guess is that these one sentence ideas were something along the lines of book themes with maybe some of the overarching plot points weaved in. Stuff like, “werewolf fun, Vampire Ball/vampire war starts, Summer Court fun/Harry meets Mab & secures Winter Court support, Denarian intro, White court porno/Harry realizes he has a brother, Movie Monsters/Harry gains an apprentice, Necromancer Fun (breaking the 5th law)/Vamp war escalates…
Notice I put “Movie Monsters” before “Necromancer fun.” That’s because Jim originally intended them in that order, but his editor asked for something special for book seven because it was the first hard cover release, and he went with Zombie T-Rex. Jim has also said that as he has written the series there have been a few new ideas for the books that he has come up with, and he swapped them out with ones from the original ideas.
Jim has said that there are many details that have changed or been added, but that the overarching things he wanted to accomplish in the series are still right on track. These things are where things are with the White Council, and probably things like his relationship with Mab, what Harry knows about his family, Denarian books at numbers that are divisible by 5…
Things that Jim has said he did not originally plan are:
- The entire Lash plot was put in on a whim when he finished Death Masks
- Susan’s Infection, (and anything to do with Harry’s love life, he lets that come organically)
- Maggie was conceived because Jim took on a bet that he could make a sex scene plot relevant
- Characters that became important through the course of writing:
- Butters
- Freaking IVY
- Vince Graver (Jim says he wants to use this guy more)
- Zombie T-Rex (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/edge-of-infinity/1248964599329.jpg)was inspired something like 5 years before writing Dead Beat when he was watching a documentary on Sue and realized that she was in Chicago. She wasn’t put on display (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sue_(dinosaur)#Display) until 5 years after he wrote Storm Front.
- Switch of order between DB and PG as mentioned earlier
Between books 12 and 13 Jim had said several times that he had expected Harry to die by the midpoint of the series and that since it’s happened a little late he might end up putting out more like 22 books rather than 20, but since the release of Ghost Story, he has said that he has caught up on things and is on schedule for a 20 book series… He has also said that traveling through time is a Law of Magic so at some point Harry is going to have to break it, implying that each law has a book associated with it like Dead Beat. He has also said that he fully intends to do a Mirror Mirror (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MirrorUniverse) (TTW) book, which will have a BA Marcone character.
I think that covers that question. One more thing on Ivy, I think Small Favor is the book Jim refers to when he says he has replaced some ideas from his original notebook.
I have responses for the rest of your comments, but I’ll post this part up first, and follow up later.
Edit: I forgot to put in the obligitory TTW (TV Tropes Warning)
ETA: One more thing, Jim does not travel well, and his preferred medium of communication with us is text (imagine that) so sometimes questions he's asked at Q&A sessions can put him on the spot, and as such his answers might not always be quite as gosple as what is in the books. He does have several stories/answers that he has already worked out, and which tend to get repeated multiple times.
I've been to 2 Q&A sessions with him now, and the questions I asked at the 2nd were intentionally crafted to have less deep meaning, and thus easier to answer. At some point I wish to have a 1 on 1 Q&A session with him (something that has been looked upon favorably by both Jim and Prisc), but after all the work I put in on the compilation from it's inseption to about a month after the GS release, I ended up taking a long break from the community and I'm not as confident of my worthyness.
-
I still dont get it - what bargain exactly would Mab have made? This theory all seems so nebulous compared to Knnn's which clearly spells out what was going on and why. And it all fits. That's why I like it.
My objection was that - given what happened to Lea - I cant see Mab making any kind of bargain with the BC. She wouldnt trust them and she'd be in no mood to make bargains.
Quickie response. Although this doesn't exclude the possibility of the deal being directly with Mab, it has been pointed out that when Mab incapacitated Lea, she had to take on her bargain with Harry, and that it is possible that something similar had to be done for a deal between Lea and the Black Council.
-
I was going to point out that Mab may have inherited Lea's bargain, but Serack beat me to it. To make things more complicated, Cowl/Mavra (or whoever planned to infect Lea) may not have intended the Athame to get to Mab.
Serack - Another change I remember Jim mentioning is that PG was originally supposed to be before DB, but then his publisher told him the next book would be hardcover and he should do something "splashier". ...So he used the zombie-trex idea.
Not sure how this affects any of the theories though.
-
Serack - Another change I remember Jim mentioning is that PG was originally supposed to be before DB, but then his publisher told him the next book would be hardcover and he should do something "splashier". ...So he used the zombie-trex idea.
I covered that in the part before the "list." I suppose I should add it to a bullet anyways :P
-
I covered that in the part before the "list." I suppose I should add it to a bullet anyways :P
:P
That's what I get for speed-reading your post.
-
I should also point out that the rival theory that Serack mentions (and to be completely fair, it's one of the inspirations for this theory) belongs to Neuro (link here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,10792.html)). It's the one the famously caused Jim to exclaim:
...I think we all aspire to such greatness. ;D
Oh my, and here I thought I was being original when I wrote this (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25920.msg1105310.html#msg1105310). Turns out neuro beat me to it by 2 years. Although neuro had it tucked away as a detail in a long convoluted neurostyle theory, and I mapped out my reasoning for the theory.
Edit: Ack, I had links saved to over 20 threads/posts that I found valuable, and my hiatus was so long that all but 5 have decayed... Time to back up those 5 I guess...
-
Oh my, and here I thought I was being original when I wrote this (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25920.msg1105310.html#msg1105310).
The second reason I brought up Neuro's quote is because it explores a little further how that bargain could have been used to control (or at least limit) Mab. It's also interesting because it makes an outsider-Scarecrow connection and suggests that it was a BC member/minion rather than under the control of Mab. The implications (e.g. reasons for killing Glau and unmolested presence in AT) are quite large.
...the first reason is of course to highlight Jim's CIA accusation, something that is so awesome, it made it into the "Dresden Files Purity Test", even though it's a feat that will probably never be duplicated.
-
Maybe knnn could work on some fine tuning of the "Time Travellin' Harry in PG" theories for me?
The Dresden Files
Episode XVI
Haunted Past
Past Tense
Half Past
Past Time
Then Again
Return to Splattercon!!!
Innocent Until
Harry is sent back in time by the Gatekeeper to find out more about the Black Council, and the mysterious events which occured in Episode VIII...
- Why didn't PG GK say more to PG Harry? Because Future Harry traveled back and told PG GK what to tell himself. That's why it's really cryptic; because GK didn't know any more than Future Harry told him.
- Who hits PG Harry in the BB with the other old beat-up car? Future Harry. Why? Slow him down, delay using lil' Chicago.
- Why didn't Harry unplug the phone, which ended up disrupting his use of lil' Chicago? He DID, but Future Harry snuck in and plugged it back in to a) stop him from using lil' Chicago, and b) make sure PG Harry didn't miss Molly's call.
- Who fixed lil' Chicago? Future Harry, who must have told Bob not to blab.
- Who helped Mab run off the BC attackers from Arctis Tor? Future Harry, a.k.a. Winter Knight. Thus explaining how Mab really knew he would eventually be W.K.
- Why did Mab wink at PG Harry as he was escaping? Because she had just winked at him moments before when he left. Symmetry.
- What happened to the athame? Future Harry took it... Back to the Future <queue theme song>.
-
I guess everybody has their own pet theory!
For me, I tend to take the Occam's Razor approach. I still like Knnns theory best because it fits all the facts we do know, while having the least supposing about things we dont know about. For instance, all this speculation about a deal Lea might have made with the BC is just that. The only deal we know she made is trading Amoracchius for the Athame. And we all saw how that turned out.
Any deal Mab might have made with the BC is again just pure speculation. And why she would want to make any kind of deal with the BC at that point is beyond me. And why would that involve sending her troops to the borders of Summer? If she was fulfilling her part of this supposed bargain, why attack Arctis Tor? Wouldnt the attack abrogate the deal? I mean if Harry's attack allowed Winter to move its troops, why didnt the first attack do the same thing? There are just too many things that dont make sense to me.
Compare to Knnn's theory - which is clean and neat and doesnt need to assume facts not in evidence. It looks at what actually happened, and then tries to discern motive. And somewhere there is a WoJ that says something like "Who says Mab lost the battle of Arctis Tor? Look at what happened as a result and what events got set in motion".
Well, Molly got a reprieve from life as a warlock and became a WC apprentice. I think this is Jim's wink to Knnn's theory.
But like I said, everyone will have their own pet theory.
-
Maybe knnn could work on some fine tuning of the "Time Travellin' Harry in PG" theories for me?
The way you set it out, it does make sense and it could fit, but I kind of hope you're wrong because Im not a great fan of time travel stories. Ive never read one that I found believeable.
Even in the context of s-f, I have trouble believing the past is something you can go back into and change. Once you allow that, there is no real present. I mean, what would stop Cowl from going back in time and preventing the fall of the Red Court? Or stealing the Book of Kemmler and completing the Darkhaven? Or coming prepared to attack Gard and hold her off long enough for him to kill Harry? Im using Cowl as an example, but Im sure he's not the only powerful entity on the BC.
I dont know - I just think once you allow the possibility of changing the past - why wouldnt everybody do it?
-
The way you set it out, it does make sense and it could fit, but I kind of hope you're wrong because Im not a great fan of time travel stories. Ive never read one that I found believeable.
Even in the context of s-f, I have trouble believing the past is something you can go back into and change. Once you allow that, there is no real present. I mean, what would stop Cowl from going back in time and preventing the fall of the Red Court? Or stealing the Book of Kemmler and completing the Darkhaven? Or coming prepared to attack Gard and hold her off long enough for him to kill Harry? Im using Cowl as an example, but Im sure he's not the only powerful entity on the BC.
I dont know - I just think once you allow the possibility of changing the past - why wouldnt everybody do it?
but that is the elegance of harry time traveling in that theory he doesn't change any thing just enact the parts that allowed him to do what he did the first time and that would be a somewhat acceptable breaking of the law cause he all ready did it so for him not to would cause a paradox just my opinion
Now if mab had any deal with the black circle i would guess that it would be to negate the influence of the knife (i am dyslexic and cant spell the "a" word)in exchange for her keeping pressure on the summer court but i doubt she did she is to smart for that
-
but that is the elegance of harry time traveling in that theory he doesn't change any thing just enact the parts that allowed him to do what he did the first time and that would be a somewhat acceptable breaking of the law cause he all ready did it so for him not to would cause a paradox just my opinion
I dont understand what you're trying to say here. If he changed nothing why did he go back in time in the first place?
I thought the point of the OP was that Harry was severely wounded in the Little Chicago explosion the first time around, which took him out of the game. Future Harry went back to correct this by ensuring LC never exploded. How is that not changing anything? The change is huge and impacts everyone.
So why wouldnt some Black Hat try doing the same thing?
-
ok my bad i have not read the original post but but my point is that harry went back in time because he had to not to prevent an explosion in LC although that is a good thing. but if u need a reason for harry to travel back in time say mab needs the knife but knows she cant hold it for long with out going mad so she has harry ,still her knight and therefore not as strictly bound by the laws, travel back in time where harry informs her of the events that r about to happen she then informs the gatekeeper who tells harry about the black magick happening and sets the whole thing off. this explains y mab took molly as well but the main reason for it is that harry already did it and that removes your trouble with time travel the reason cowl doesn't do any of those things is he didn't therefor for him to do so would create a rather large paradox
-
ok my bad i have not read the original post but but my point is that harry went back in time because he had to not to prevent an explosion in LC although that is a good thing. but if u need a reason for harry to travel back in time say mab needs the knife but knows she cant hold it for long with out going mad so she has harry ,still her knight and therefore not as strictly bound by the laws, travel back in time where harry informs her of the events that r about to happen she then informs the gatekeeper who tells harry about the black magick happening and sets the whole thing off. this explains y mab took molly as well but the main reason for it is that harry already did it and that removes your trouble with time travel the reason cowl doesn't do any of those things is he didn't therefor for him to do so would create a rather large paradox
This is exactly why I hate time travel stories. It gets too confusing and nothing makes sense.
You're assuming that because - as we read the story - these things are happening - that Harry already did them and therefore they are already 'done' and the timeline 'set'. But that if Cowl were to come back and try to do the same thing - say kill Harry in the alley - it would be changing the timeline because the first time around [as we read the book] - he didnt do it, so coming back and doing it now would mean 'changing' things. If I understand you correct, this is what you are saying?
But just because we dont see a different [earlier] timeline play out doesnt mean it didnt happen. It MUST have happened, or future Harry would have no reason to come back into the past [his past, our present] to change it. So there was an earlier version of the story in that book in which no one came back to stop it and Harry got severely injured in LC explosion. To prevent that from happening - and to change the past - Harry comes back [in OPs post] to prevent LC from ever exploding. It doesnt matter whether he interferes directly [the OP] or tells Mab [in your version] and she does it. The result is the same - it wipes out the old timeline [which we never saw] and substitutes the new one [which is the book we read].
Cowl or someone else could do exactly the same thing. The only difference is we first read the original timeline - Harry gets rescued by Gard. And we get to read about how Cowl changed it so that Harry dies. But both of them are changing the timeline and like I said - where does it stop? It just creates a mess. And if Harry can do it, then why not someone else?
Like I said, I just never read a story where it seemed realistic or believeable to me.
Besides, using Knnn's theory there's no need to resort to time travel devices to make sense of the book.
And as I read your post again it could be - sorry - that Im still misunderstanding your point??
-
This is exactly why I hate time travel stories. It gets too confusing and nothing makes sense.
You didn't read the Harry Potter books, did you?
What I'm proposing is that Harry be sent back in time by GK to learn more about the Black Council, nothing else. Of course, then he ends up playing a role that he didn't know he would.
For example, Future GK helps send him back specifically to NOT change the past and only observe the BC shenanigans. And one of the first things he does is accidently bump into PG GK. PG GK realizes he's from the Future, and threatens to punish him for breaking a law. Future Harry manages to convince/prove to PG GK that he traveled with Future GK's help and consent. PG GK lets him go, and as he's departing, Future Harry makes an off-the-cuff comment about giving him a little more detail this time when he warns him about the black magic stuff. PG GK says, "um, I have no idea what you're talking about". And Future Harry says "yeah, you tell me there's dark magic being performed in town, and you have me look into it." To which PG GK says, "First I heard of it." Which confuses Harry, until he begins to realize that he sets that in motion. Which then has him worrying about what else he may have already set in motion the first time, but doesn't know what he has to do this time around. Queue internal dialogue rant about making things difficult for himself.
Thus Harry has to balance not changing anything other than what needs to be changed to match the first time around, while also trying to investigate and learn more about the BC.
Besides, using Knnn's theory there's no need to resort to time travel devices to make sense of the book.
No, time travel isn't needed to make it work. But time travel could be used to explain things in the book that went unexplained which his theory didn't touch on, and could also be the way that Harry finds out about the plot which Knnn spelled out.
-
You didn't read the Harry Potter books, did you?
What I'm proposing is that Harry be sent back in time by GK to learn more about the Black Council, nothing else. Of course, then he ends up playing a role that he didn't know he would.
For example, Future GK helps send him back specifically to NOT change the past and only observe the BC shenanigans. And one of the first things he does is accidently bump into PG GK. PG GK realizes he's from the Future, and threatens to punish him for breaking a law. Future Harry manages to convince/prove to PG GK that he traveled with Future GK's help and consent. PG GK lets him go, and as he's departing, Future Harry makes an off-the-cuff comment about giving him a little more detail this time when he warns him about the black magic stuff. PG GK says, "um, I have no idea what you're talking about". And Future Harry says "yeah, you tell me there's dark magic being performed in town, and you have me look into it." To which PG GK says, "First I heard of it." Which confuses Harry, until he begins to realize that he sets that in motion. Which then has him worrying about what else he may have already set in motion the first time, but doesn't know what he has to do this time around. Queue internal dialogue rant about making things difficult for himself.
Thus Harry has to balance not changing anything other than what needs to be changed to match the first time around, while also trying to investigate and learn more about the BC.
No, time travel isn't needed to make it work. But time travel could be used to explain things in the book that went unexplained which his theory didn't touch on, and could also be the way that Harry finds out about the plot which Knnn spelled out.
I don't think Harry Potter did it well, but it had way more plot holes and inconsistencies as a series than TDF does. Time travel also introduced critical logic issues into that series. Information and items don't just appear out of nowhere.
(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrap_paradox)
Besides, who says the bad guys are doing it constantly and that there aren't good guys who have had to travel back to "fix" things themselves? For example, I think the instance in which Harry "was supposed to die" at the hands of Corpsetaker could have originally played out that way, but was altered by someone traveling back and alerting Marcone. Harry would not have been able to do that (in this particular instance), so it strikes me that perhaps there are have been several alterations to the time stream, but that we only see the the altered time and not the original situation that had to be "fixed."
-
so it strikes me that perhaps there are have been several alterations to the time stream, but that we only see the the altered time and not the original situation that had to be "fixed."
LOL! And see this is why I really dont like time travel stories - because why would the present ever stay the same. Why wouldnt Corpsetaker go back and restore the original timeline by bringing in re-inforcements to deal with Gard?
You could be right and this will happen at some point in the books, but I really hope not because it just doesnt work [for me].
-
You didn't read the Harry Potter books, did you?
What I'm proposing is that Harry be sent back in time by GK to learn more about the Black Council, nothing else. Of course, then he ends up playing a role that he didn't know he would.
For example, Future GK helps send him back specifically to NOT change the past and only observe the BC shenanigans. And one of the first things he does is accidently bump into PG GK. PG GK realizes he's from the Future, and threatens to punish him for breaking a law. Future Harry manages to convince/prove to PG GK that he traveled with Future GK's help and consent. PG GK lets him go, and as he's departing, Future Harry makes an off-the-cuff comment about giving him a little more detail this time when he warns him about the black magic stuff. PG GK says, "um, I have no idea what you're talking about". And Future Harry says "yeah, you tell me there's dark magic being performed in town, and you have me look into it." To which PG GK says, "First I heard of it." Which confuses Harry, until he begins to realize that he sets that in motion. Which then has him worrying about what else he may have already set in motion the first time, but doesn't know what he has to do this time around. Queue internal dialogue rant about making things difficult for himself.
Thus Harry has to balance not changing anything other than what needs to be changed to match the first time around, while also trying to investigate and learn more about the BC.
Okay, now I see how this is working [and no I didnt read HP - did she do something similiar there?]. I think on superficial reading it works, but once you stop and start to think about it, for me it doesnt. This is a general problem I have with all time travel [at least all that I've read].
What's to stop Future Cowl from going back into the past and whispering to Past Kumori - And thanks for reminding me to bring some back-up for dealing with Dresden in that alley - did they come in handy!
Then what happens - Kumori tells Cowl about what Future Cowl said. Cowl brings his army of zombies or ghouls or maybe a Skinwalker [or something] with him to the alley. They take on Gard and Harry dies in the alley.
No, time travel isn't needed to make it work. But time travel could be used to explain things in the book that went unexplained which his theory didn't touch on, and could also be the way that Harry finds out about the plot which Knnn spelled out.
Generally using time travel to explain something sounds kind of desperate to me - I dont mind using prescience, precognition - whatever you call it - glimpses of the future, intuition about the future. That kind of ties in with the magic theme. But having someone actually travel back in time and interact with it - it just raises all kinds of problems with me. I guess there's a limit to the amount of belief I'm willing to suspend.
But if you have time, Im curious. What problems are you talking about that could be solved with time travel? Im kind of doubtful there couldnt be a simpler, more believable solution.
-
If I have to pick a point in the series that Harry goes back in time it would have to be Changes. During the chaotic battle, someone yells Fuego. Additionally, there is the time gap after he kills Susan. My assumption is that future Harry is there to stop someone from reversing the end of the RC. Harry being Harry can't help seeing Susan one last time before she is turned. That is when he the two Harrys meet. The time lapse is the result of mental magic. Thus, Harry breaks two laws of magic. The mental magic could fall under a technicality loophole since he is only doing it to himself.
-
yes starshine u r correct in my take on this and while i don't actual believe this is the path that will be taken( i believe the harry's subconscious is harry time traveling theory) if it was going to happen the way it works best for me is if we view time not as a multitude of time lines but as a fixed plain. if we look at it like this then this theory whether it is mab sending harry back to retrieve the knife or the gatekeeper sending harry back is immaterial to the point which is the only way harry can go back in time is if he has already done so (or will have done so in the future, time travel makes tenses very confusing,) and he must figure out what he did but not change anything else paradox and BOOM this i y every one doesn't do it the risk out ways the profit which is none considering if u change anything u end all but if harry did it then he can do it.
Addressing the believability aspect we r talking about a book that the protagonist regularly does thing that r imposable in real life so what i say is make me belive it can happen in his world or not so long as it is a good story who cares if it is unrealistic after all it is fanatsy
-
If I have to pick a point in the series that Harry goes back in time it would have to be Changes. During the chaotic battle, someone yells Fuego. Additionally, there is the time gap after he kills Susan. My assumption is that future Harry is there to stop someone from reversing the end of the RC.
Wasn't the shout of fuego a guy ordering the mercenaries to fire?
-
Wasn't the shout of fuego a guy ordering the mercenaries to fire?
You are correct.
-
You are correct.
Is that from a WoJ?
-
I don't think Harry Potter did it well, but it had way more plot holes and inconsistencies as a series than TDF does. Time travel also introduced critical logic issues into that series. Information and items don't just appear out of nowhere.
(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrap_paradox)
Besides, who says the bad guys are doing it constantly and that there aren't good guys who have had to travel back to "fix" things themselves? For example, I think the instance in which Harry "was supposed to die" at the hands of Corpsetaker could have originally played out that way, but was altered by someone traveling back and alerting Marcone. Harry would not have been able to do that (in this particular instance), so it strikes me that perhaps there are have been several alterations to the time stream, but that we only see the the altered time and not the original situation that had to be "fixed."
But we know in the Dresdenverse that time travel, or some equivalent, is possible. Otherwise there wouldn't be a WC rule on it. And supposedly WoJ is that all of the rules will be broken. So if we're stuck with it, we have to make the best of it.
Is that from a WoJ?
I bet if JB has read as many posts on that 'Fuego' as I have, he regrets writing that one-liner joke.
-
The WOJ isnt that all the rules would be broken it was some like" it is not like i have seven books outlined dealing with the laws" iirc
-
The WOJ isnt that all the rules would be broken it was some like" it is not like i have seven books outlined dealing with the laws" iirc
Yes, you are right I think. By coincidence I found this from another thread posted by The Curious Fan from a WoJ:
Will we ever see Dresden forced into a situation where he may have to jump through time to do something?
Jim's Response: That would require him breaking one of the laws of magic, and it's not as though I have seven books outlined, one for each law, or anything. We may, probably, possibly some see such as thing at some point.
Back to my comments [highlights mine BTW] :
Im kind of relieved by this. The way I read it he DOESNT have some plan to have Harry or someone break all the Laws of Magic. If it happens to further the plot, it happens. But he's not intentionally writing for it to happen.
I'd say it's 50/50 if there is going to be any actual time travel or not - PLEASE GOD! do I hope not!!!
-
I read somewhere jim is planing on doing a miorror mirror book which ends my my one time line theory (like i said b4 i belive the harrys subconsious time travel theory any ways) this would however have to be the result of breaking one of the laws a parodx event being the most likely at least to my mind please excuse any misspelling my tablet has no spell check and i am dyslexic
-
I really enjoy answering questions like this one.
I started writing up a potential topic discussing this very thing, so sorry if my response to this topic is a bit long, it’s something I’ve put a lot of thought into.
And I appreciate your taking the time to answer me in so much detail. It was very interesting to read how this came about.
I wouldnt have guessed this series was plotted out so far in advance - even before he started SF. The first couple of books are quite simple compared to what comes later and the tone of the books is much lighter, almost humorous. Kind of reminded me of Nightstalker, if anyone remembers that TV show. I thought we were in for a kind of magic detective type of mystery novel, and then - very suddenly [starting with Bianca's party, but really coming into its own in SK] - we make this 90 degree turn - the tone gets more serious, the plots get more complex, and we get this extraordinarily rich and creative mythology as a background. And all the characters became very fleshed out and "real".
I really love this series - it's interesting to read about how it all came about.
-
I read somewhere jim is planing on doing a miorror mirror book which ends my my one time line theory (like i said b4 i belive the harrys subconsious time travel theory any ways) this would however have to be the result of breaking one of the laws a parodx event being the most likely at least to my mind please excuse any misspelling my tablet has no spell check and i am dyslexic
He is planning on a Mirror Mirror book featuring Mirror Mirrror!Marcone and possibly being titled "Mirror Mirror".
-
He is planning on a Mirror Mirror book featuring Mirror Mirrror!Marcone and possibly being titled "Mirror Mirror".
A full book or a short story/novella kind of thing [like Back-Up]?
Im a sucker for those mirror dimension stories - DS-9's were great.
-
A full book or a short story/novella kind of thing [like Back-Up]?
Im a sucker for those mirror dimension stories - DS-9's were great.
Apparently its going to be a full book.