ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Aminar on September 09, 2012, 05:50:23 PM

Title: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Aminar on September 09, 2012, 05:50:23 PM
So, If I were to try to put a Libriomancer into the DFRPG, because frankly best thing ever, what would be the best way to go about it?

I'm currently thinking
-4 Sponsored Magic-Libriomancy technically covers it.

Does calling out something cause mental stress and create the item? 

I'm worried that this might wind up OP.  Do I have the items they pull out take up item slots?  I would think so.  What happens when the player gets super creative, reaches into a novelization of a Spiderman movie and gets himself bitten by the radioactive spider(which is how vampires are created too within the book so it should work).  Or gets a green lantern ring.  That has to be an item of power, do I deduct it from their refresh until it's returned.(I would assume it grants armor 2 wings, and Channeling(green Light))
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: GryMor on September 09, 2012, 06:30:33 PM
Temporary powers are at least refresh x2 complexity and cost a fate point per refresh per scene to use. Non temporary powers granted by magic eat refresh.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Aminar on September 09, 2012, 07:35:02 PM
Yes, but that style of usage doesn't necessarily reflect the way a Libriomancer's magic works.  It seems an unfair limitation that in order to use a fairly simple application of their magic(pulling an object out of a book) they would need to spend FP and worry hugely about complexity.    The way you suggest it They would need to cast a 6 complexity spell and spend 3 FP to get a GL ring, which has no complexity beyond what it takes to pull a rock  from the book. 

Keeping the integrity of the pre-described magic system is as important as balancing it.  It should feel like a Libriomancer, not just do the same thing in a different way.

libriomancy is fed by what appears to be Sanity and the bodies energy and appears to be costly to both, but I'm unsure how to do that. 

(And if you havenn't read the book to know how it works, I highly recommend the it.  Fantastic book.)
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: JDK002 on September 09, 2012, 07:57:58 PM
I personally think one issue is you pretty much have to take the core concept and apply it to the way magic works in the dresdenverse.  This means changing at least some of the fundamentals of the core concept.

If applied to dresdenverse magic, you're basically creating something from a piece of literature through your own will.  The more complex and intricate the object you're trying to create, the higher the spell complexity would be due to the need to form all of the different functions, and how they all connect into a whole, clearly in your mind.

In the dresdenverse there is a huge difference between using magic to create a rock, and using magc to create a ring that's essentially an item of power that allows you to create complex constructs at evocation speed.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Tedronai on September 09, 2012, 08:06:12 PM
I'm not familiar with the source material, but from what I see in this thread, you might do this with Modular Abilities and some custom 'using this is costly to the user' power charging mental and/or physical stress on a per-use basis.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Aminar on September 09, 2012, 08:43:43 PM
I personally think one issue is you pretty much have to take the core concept and apply it to the way magic works in the dresdenverse.  This means changing at least some of the fundamentals of the core concept.

If applied to dresdenverse magic, you're basically creating something from a piece of literature through your own will.  The more complex and intricate the object you're trying to create, the higher the spell complexity would be due to the need to form all of the different functions, and how they all connect into a whole, clearly in your mind.

In the dresdenverse there is a huge difference between using magic to create a rock, and using magc to create a ring that's essentially an item of power that allows you to create complex constructs at evocation speed.

Wizard magic works that way in the dresdenverse.  This isn't wizard magic.  The system itself merges into the DF very well.  The major powering of the system comes from the communal belief of humanity in how the object works, a concept similar to some in the DF.  So everyone that's read spiderman knows what the radioactive spider did.  That belief an understanding creates power-hence the sponsored magic bit.  Not that the power involved doesn't tax the user.  They power the items with their bodymass so extended use of a GL ring will lead to starvation, malnutrition, etc.  Meanwhile the act of retrieving objects causes severe mental trauma of a sort.


I can see a good case for modular powers and a mix of toughness powers, breath weapon, wings, what have you...  I'd prefer not to though as that cuts away a large part of the costs and creativity shown(using a copy of a book about WWI to summon Mustard Gas clouds) and things like that.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Tedronai on September 09, 2012, 10:14:11 PM
Representing the creativity in a Modular Abilities version is the job of Declarations, Maneuvers, and Compels, and they do their tasks quite reaonably well.
The costs associated with this power would be the job of a custom rebate power.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on September 10, 2012, 01:38:06 AM
If you plan on doing more than Attack, Block, Maneuver, and Move in combat, then trying to make this work as magic (specifically evocation) will not work. 

Bringing up items is easy.  That's conjuration.  Bringing up people/characters is summoning.  That's a bit more difficult.  Granting yourself abilities?  Much harder. 

They type of magic you describe doesn't work well as an RPG.  That doesn't mean it can't work, but it does mean that there will be a lot of work to adapt it.  I'll see what I can do, because I'd love to integrate the concept as an NPC in my game.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Aminar on September 10, 2012, 01:51:17 AM
The nice thing about granting abilities beyond items of power is that Libriomancers that gain magical abilities lose the ability to be a libriomancer so once they get bit Spideysenses they would rapidly lose their Libriomancer abilities and start getting spiderclimb, inhuman speed and strength.  The ability to grant others powers through it is a bit skitchy...  I can see having a modular abvilities pocket combined with the sponsored magic being a handy way to manage things.  Essentially Modular Items of power.  Or even an item of power(books) that grants modular abilities in the shape of the items of power...  Then give those items feeding dependency physical stress of the wielder.  (God that's layered and silly complex.)
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 10, 2012, 02:15:22 AM
This is a tricky one.

You might want to look at the Bibliomancy sponsored magic and the Magical Self-Enhancement custom power. They're on the appropriate master lists.

Regardless, it's important that you pay for whatever effect you get.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on September 10, 2012, 02:32:18 AM
Regardless, it's important that you pay for whatever effect you get.

This.  This power will have to be 3-4 refresh at minimum.  And it should never allow you to buy powers for cheaper than the powers would normally cost.

The two things I'm playing with (as I start to read the book) is using Enchanted Items and Scholarship as a skill replacement (probably for mental stress). 

So super-strength could be you rolling your Superb Scholarship instead of your Mediocre Might (and tagging a declared aspect to boost it further).

A declared Green Lantern ring would grant an X-shift conjuration effect (for the green construct).

Excalibur would be both a Scholarship replacement (for Weapons) and an x-shift enchanted item (making it Weapon:X).

Working on cost, number of uses/scene or session, etc.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Aminar on September 10, 2012, 04:04:17 AM
I totally agree that costs need to happen.


Thoughts here, starting at base level.
Primary skill Scholarship, Lore and conviction.(instead of discipline and Lore and conviction.)
Calling forth an object causes mental stress equal to the number of item slots the item would take up.  I feel Lore should still be involved, I mean you still have to know about all the supernatural baddies out there.

Then once you run out of charges from summoning the item it starts taxing you physically, also working like a spell would in that if you have conviction 3 and a damage 5 weapon it does 3 physical stress not 1.

As for items of power, methinks maybe just being required to have the free refresh is good or it starts to crack the mind too much and you lose your PC status until the item is returned.  Makes the player careful.  Same with gaining new powers(because what better reason to give my players all sorts of weird concepts to play.  Allomancer for the win.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on September 17, 2012, 12:58:01 PM
Working on playtesting right now, but:

Scholarship is enchanted item strength.  Strength can be reduced by 1 to allow others to use.  Items have one use, unless you spend additional slots on extra uses or reduce strength to use.

Libriomancers get 2 enchanted item slots which they can have as part of their character (like the fish in Isaac's head).  Even without books, the libriomancer may have access to these items.

Libriomancers may also call up 4 enchanted items per session.  This can either be declared ahead of time (by stating which books you have, and that you have the pages earmarked), or declared with a scholarship declaration.  Multiple slots may be used to create more powerful items.  Take mental or physical stress equal to the number of slots used. 

Items may be used additional times, for a point of mental stress per slot each time.

Additional items may be created by taking a mental or physical consequence.  These items are especially potent, granting +1 strength for mild, +3 for moderate, or +5 for severe consequences.  Using these items additional times past their frequency cost stress equal to the above bonuses (so 5 stress for an additional use of an item created by taking a severe consequence).  Once the consequence has healed, the item may not be used at all.

You may not have a number of items active at any give time greater than your Lore bonus.

I'm working out how I want specialization/focus bonuses to go, exact wording, etc. 

For my game, I'm going to broaden it to any type of media (so movies, art, tv, comics, etc).  Working on that too.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on September 17, 2012, 01:11:54 PM
Basically the ideas are:

Scholarship=Effectiveness
Lore=Used to limit bonuses from Refinement, used to limit number of active items
Conviction/Endurance=Used only for stress calculation
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Haru on September 17, 2012, 02:05:54 PM
If it's about items that give you varying superpowers, wouldn't item of power + modular abilities do the trick?
Excalibur could be represented by claws + inhuman strength.
The green lantern ring could be modeled using breath weapons.
Super-Strength pretty much explains itself.
Maybe add ritual("crafting") as a constant power for enchanted items and potions for declaring one trick effects.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on September 18, 2012, 11:38:04 AM
If it's about items that give you varying superpowers, wouldn't item of power + modular abilities do the trick?
Excalibur could be represented by claws + inhuman strength.
The green lantern ring could be modeled using breath weapons.
Super-Strength pretty much explains itself.
Maybe add ritual("crafting") as a constant power for enchanted items and potions for declaring one trick effects.

Because in the book it's really more about creating magic items on the fly, not granting powers (that can be done, but then it's not temporary and would just be represented as purchased abilities). 

The best way I could describe it in DFRPG terms would be creating magic items with evocation's methods and speed.  But the skills and that are a bit different.  It's less about personal power.  Libriomancers are rather weak on the "power" side.  That's why they have to draw on shared beliefs about stories to manifest magic.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Haru on September 18, 2012, 04:26:11 PM
No, I understand you.
The thing is, an enchanted item would work as a weapon:x for 1 attack and then vanish, mechanically. If you wanted to draw it out of the book to fight with for an entire scene, that's where modular abilities comes into play. By tying it to the item of power, you make it an item, not a character power.

I never read the books, so it might really not fit, and if that's the case, ignore me. But I think the power is pretty neat to model something like that. I have a character in my campaign who has a bag of magic items that he can draw from, each with a different power. The character itself does not have a single power, he can use the items which store the powers. Mechanically that makes no difference, but narratively, it can be a huge deal.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on September 18, 2012, 06:07:27 PM
No, I understand you.
The thing is, an enchanted item would work as a weapon:x for 1 attack and then vanish, mechanically. If you wanted to draw it out of the book to fight with for an entire scene, that's where modular abilities comes into play. By tying it to the item of power, you make it an item, not a character power.

I never read the books, so it might really not fit, and if that's the case, ignore me. But I think the power is pretty neat to model something like that. I have a character in my campaign who has a bag of magic items that he can draw from, each with a different power. The character itself does not have a single power, he can use the items which store the powers. Mechanically that makes no difference, but narratively, it can be a huge deal.

Ah, I see what you're saying. 

The more I think about it, the more I think both may work best.  The big thing is making it a mechanically viable concept. 

My big focus is deciding which skills should be important.  I think I've settled on Scholarship and Lore being the primary skills and used for any calculations.  Conviction and Endurance would only come into play because they affect stress.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: fantazero on September 24, 2012, 03:35:21 PM
So he can basically pull anything out of a book, He's creating things from thin air. Sounds like NPC Fairy Magic.
i'd say he'd be a good NPC but a terrible PC (because of the power involved)

But if you want to try it. I'd say you'd basically stat them as a Wizard (to control the items) but you'd make them pay a Fate Point to pull something out a book (And maybe make them role Lore and Discipline) but that feels unfair to the player.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: sqlcowboy on September 28, 2012, 05:22:09 PM
Something that people seem to miss here is Isaac couldn't actually USE everything he pulled from a book.  There's a specific example

(click to show/hide)

which would lead me to believe that it'd be GMs discretion to say if he could figure out how (or have the prerequisite ability and aspects, ie Will and Lack of Fear) to actually USE a Green Lantern ring.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Taran on September 28, 2012, 05:38:24 PM
Something that people seem to miss here is Isaac couldn't actually USE everything he pulled from a book.  There's a specific example

(click to show/hide)

which would lead me to believe that it'd be GMs discretion to say if he could figure out how (or have the prerequisite ability and aspects, ie Will and Lack of Fear) to actually USE a Green Lantern ring.

O.k.  Now I have to read the books.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: JDK002 on September 30, 2012, 05:24:16 PM
Something that people seem to miss here is Isaac couldn't actually USE everything he pulled from a book.  There's a specific example

(click to show/hide)

which would lead me to believe that it'd be GMs discretion to say if he could figure out how (or have the prerequisite ability and aspects, ie Will and Lack of Fear) to actually USE a Green Lantern ring.
That's a good point.  It kind of goes along with the games notion of trying to fly with magic.  That you could create a spell that lets you fly, but that doesn't mean that you know HOW to fly.  That would make for a lot of good compel fodder.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: ways and means on September 30, 2012, 07:28:38 PM
BIBLIOMANCY [-4]
Description: You can project the world of the word into the real world. Nothing from the world of the word can exist without context as it would lose its meaning and therefore its existence. Monsters drawn from books remain monsters and heroes, heroes.
Sponsor: Bibliomancy draws upon the world of words for its powers. The world of words is essentially a conglomeration of everything ever written, from novels to textbooks. It is not actually sentient, but it has a sort of will nonetheless.
Agenda: The world of words has no concrete agenda, but it is generally in favour of knowledge and against the destruction of books. Sometimes it will try to force reality into the shape of a novel.
Evocation: Bibliomantic evocations make use of the Word element. Word evocations generally function by bringing things from the world of words into reality. This can create almost any evocation effect, but it requires access to written material containing the desired effect.
Thaumaturgy: Bibliomantic rituals can blur the line between text and truth, perform a wide variety of divinations with a textual thematic, create books or other associated objects, and open portals to certain realms.
Evothaum: Bibliomancers may summon creatures from books, divine written things, and create written materials with the speed and methods of evocation.
Extra Benefits: A Bibliomancer adds two to his or her Resources skill when using it to determine Library quality or to purchase a new Library. In addition, a Bibliomancer may use a Library of any sort as an Arcane Sanctum of an equal rating.


It was originally designed to model the Ink-hearts books but it seems a similar concept. Its in the sponsored magic magic list.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Aminar on March 27, 2013, 08:24:18 PM
Forgive me.  I'm reviving this because I recently reread the book, and accidentally wound up with a PC with the power...(First time roleplayer, Friends Wife, wanted Rogue's powers from the X-men.  Because she's moderatley uninvolved I totally forgot she can steal anything my NPC's have.  Well oops.)

I'm working on a more PC friendly way to handle this than my NPC just having cool items and the corresponding books on him.
Template requirements
Ritual/Sponsored magic-Libriomancy(Obviously)
Follows the basic rules of Libriomancy as shown in the book.  When summoning an item it deals physical and mental stress equal to the total number of item slots the item takes up.-This is in line with the way the books work in that they take caloric energy and cause some sanity issues.  It also means calling anything too obscene is unlikely.
(Uses Scholarship in stead of lore.)
Feeding Dependancy(modified)(Food)
For each item used in a scene there is one Feeding Stress.  This represents the extra costs to using magic for libriomancers who, as they use magic more burn lots of calories and are repulsed by food.  It also creates some very distinct limits on the character in the face of their overwhelming adaptability.

From there I just have to juryrig the items she comes out with.  This scares me because the whole group is very reader heavy...

Right now she has Scholarship 5(stolen from the NPC), not sure how that will interact with advancement later.
-3 for Libriomancy(including the stunt that switches Lore and Scholarship.)
and 2 points worth of extra item slots.  She also has an allotment of five books she can carry to keep things simple.
I can freely mess with those given that I told her we would work out PC balance issues later.

Another question.  Say she wants to grab an item that allows flight, whatever that may be.  How do enchanted items that simulate low levels powers work(or would I just have her use it as an item that grants the skill (Athletics)Flight 5 for a scene...
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 28, 2013, 02:16:14 AM
Ritual/Sponsored magic-Libriomancy(Obviously)
Follows the basic rules of Libriomancy as shown in the book.  When summoning an item it deals physical and mental stress equal to the total number of item slots the item takes up.-This is in line with the way the books work in that they take caloric energy and cause some sanity issues.  It also means calling anything too obscene is unlikely.
(Uses Scholarship in stead of lore.)

Not sure what this means.

Feeding Dependancy(modified)(Food)
For each item used in a scene there is one Feeding Stress.  This represents the extra costs to using magic for libriomancers who, as they use magic more burn lots of calories and are repulsed by food.  It also creates some very distinct limits on the character in the face of their overwhelming adaptability.

Also not sure I understand this, but it sounds sketchy balance-wise.

You might want to try a proper Power write-up for those Powers. Using a rigid template forces one to explain oneself, and is good for dispelling ambiguity.

Another question.  Say she wants to grab an item that allows flight, whatever that may be.  How do enchanted items that simulate low levels powers work(or would I just have her use it as an item that grants the skill (Athletics)Flight 5 for a scene...

(Athletics)Flight is not a thing. And you can't just give yourself a skill for a scene with an item, that'd be crazy broken.

Spells that grant Powers are basically just an excuse to let people spend FP on temporary Powers. But some people will let you use tags instead of FP. This may or may not be what the rules as written tell you to do.
Title: Re: Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)
Post by: Aminar on March 28, 2013, 05:16:55 PM
Where's the ambiguity(assuming you've read Libriomancer)?

The concept of being able to pull items from books is sketchy balance wise.  I'm trying to put enough cost to it within the grounds of the books that it isn't too broken(largely impossible).
Basically pulling an item deals mental and physical stress.  The stress amount is the number of item slots the item takes up. 
So for a scholarship 5 libriomancer a 3 use lightsaber(Weapon 7) deals 3 physical and mental stress.  The same item with 7 uses would deal 5 physical and mental stress(Mandating consequences)
The feeding dependancy treats each item like a power.  Part of the high concept libriomancer is that magic use burns calories but makes eating repulsive.  It should prevent overuse of items if nothing else.

Obviously not many items go over 3 or 4 item slots and stress clears at the end of each scene so they can slowly build up an arsenal during the session, without major consequences.