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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Jancarius on March 21, 2011, 11:34:49 PM

Title: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 21, 2011, 11:34:49 PM
So, my next case file I intend to devote to a white court vampire coming after 2 of the party who killed his brother in Paris.  Here's the thing though: One, seems very unlike a WCVamp to kick in the door and try and rip their heads off.  So first, he's going to try and use the party's WCVirgin to find them.  Once that's up, I want to have him start using Raith political connections to try and ruin the party's lifes/make their day to day stuff more difficult.  I decided to go with this cause of the high level of social skills the party generally has, and I wanted to give the socials a chance to shine and a WCVamp seems like a great opportunity, with a finale where they shoot/stab/bite the WCV to death. 

HOWEVER, the other thing is... I figure if the WCV does try and directly kill one of the party members, i have to at least sorta roleplay it out.  And where that gets really akward is one of his 2 primary targets is played by my ex-fiancee.  We broke up about a 15 months ago, and we've been doing a pretty good job on keeping everything friendly (and most of the time succeeding).  However, I think for pretty much everybody (me, my current girl-I'm-dating, and my ex) is SUPER uncomfortable with the idea of me roleplaying seducing her, ESPECIALLY given the supernatural level of arousal that a white court can trigger (Actually, even if my ex was my current gf, I think she would find roleplaying that somewhat akward, she's very shy about sex).  To get around this, I'm thinking I may just have the WCV be gay (or more likely bi, as the majority of Raith seems to be), but I still feel like that's going to be really awkward, and I have no idea how to roleplay seducing a guy without just saying "Okay, you feel super turned on when this guy gets near you... and moving on".  Suggestions? 

Oh, and the other female player, the midget werewolf, is the WCVirgin's RL girlfriend, so I'd prefer not to have to RP seducing her, but at least in her case it wouldn't be near as bad.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 21, 2011, 11:57:30 PM
Perhaps you can set up an additional level of separation and have the WCV seduce someone IMPORTANT to the party, but not an actual party member. That would keep the WCV out of the spotlight for quite awhile longer.

The problem with using mental effects on the players (no matter how good they are at keeping player and character knowledge separate) is that eventually it becomes quite cumbersome to maintain without absolute trust between the players and GM. It sounds like this has the potential to be awkward, and in a way that you feel would go beyond what is reasonable in your table's player/character dichotomy.

So don't test it. Find someone close to the PCs and use them as a puppet to manipulate (and/or try to kill) the players. And if you need to preserve transparency with your players, and they can keep secrets from their characters, then run brief cutscenes to make them aware that this is going on.

Edit: but if it does come to a toe-to-toe battle, then you're just going to have to play it with a very light hand, because bi, gay or not, that WCV is going to use whatever he can use in order to gain leverage (and a toe-to-toe fight means the WCV may have already lost). That said, there are plenty of scenes in the fiction when Lara and her gunsisters are serving as gun- and swordfighters only, and they reserve their mindwhammy for the truly hardest targets.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Tedronai on March 22, 2011, 12:28:04 AM
Who says the WCV playing the role of the villain has to be from House Wraith?
Skavis or Malvora would probably produce a less...problematic confrontation.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Vars on March 22, 2011, 12:31:12 AM
no matter what WCV family you decide to use, whether its Raith, Skavis, or some family you make up the one thing you have to remember is that WCV DO NOT engage directly if they aren't absolutely forced into it. Every time a WCV in the books goes physical its because it was the last resort and their pawns and cats paws had been found out/killed. I strongly suggest you use not only one lay but perhaps up to 6 layers between whoever attacks your pc's (whether physical or social or monetarily) and the puppet master. These guys are manipulaters first and combat junkies second. In fact, whatever WCV you use would lose A LOT of face by engaging directly.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Tedronai on March 22, 2011, 12:35:01 AM
WCV DO NOT engage directly if they aren't absolutely forced into it.

...or feel assured of their victory (most common in 'confrontations' with their prey)...
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Remy Sinclair on March 22, 2011, 03:43:00 AM
So, my next case file I intend to devote to a white court vampire coming after 2 of the party who killed his brother in Paris.  Here's the thing though: One, seems very unlike a WCVamp to kick in the door and try and rip their heads off.  So first, he's going to try and use the party's WCVirgin to find them.  Once that's up, I want to have him start using Raith political connections to try and ruin the party's lifes/make their day to day stuff more difficult.  I decided to go with this cause of the high level of social skills the party generally has, and I wanted to give the socials a chance to shine and a WCVamp seems like a great opportunity, with a finale where they shoot/stab/bite the WCV to death.  

HOWEVER, the other thing is... I figure if the WCV does try and directly kill one of the party members, i have to at least sorta roleplay it out.  And where that gets really akward is one of his 2 primary targets is played by my ex-fiancee.  We broke up about a 15 months ago, and we've been doing a pretty good job on keeping everything friendly (and most of the time succeeding).  However, I think for pretty much everybody (me, my current girl-I'm-dating, and my ex) is SUPER uncomfortable with the idea of me roleplaying seducing her, ESPECIALLY given the supernatural level of arousal that a white court can trigger (Actually, even if my ex was my current gf, I think she would find roleplaying that somewhat akward, she's very shy about sex).  To get around this, I'm thinking I may just have the WCV be gay (or more likely bi, as the majority of Raith seems to be), but I still feel like that's going to be really awkward, and I have no idea how to roleplay seducing a guy without just saying "Okay, you feel super turned on when this guy gets near you... and moving on".  Suggestions?  

Oh, and the other female player, the midget werewolf, is the WCVirgin's RL girlfriend, so I'd prefer not to have to RP seducing her, but at least in her case it wouldn't be near as bad.

You are afraid of seducing people with your NPC because the person behind it is your ex?

Okay, dude it is a game. I have ran WoD for most of my gaming life. Meaning Vampire: TM, Werewolf: TA, and Mage: TA. For my NPCs I use pictures and say X looks like this. Vampire seducing is an art form unless you run Sabbat games.

This is a game and it is not real. You are playing a woman and he is playing a guy. Seducing him is part of the game. Roleplaying out the scenes are a must in a game like the Dresden Files. If you are feeling awkward about this then just use straight die rolls following the Social Combat Rules in the game.

But if you have an issue running a simple scene like this. Is this the right game for you? Is your group mature enough to play a game with these kind of social aspects? Why do your WCV have to be Raiths there are other families that do not use Lust and if you do not like any of them. Make up your own so you do not have to seduce.


One of the female players is the wife of one of the players.

Now this one is tricky and I understand completely. My wife is in our gaming group. l do a lot of the running so I have to make things very clear that I treat her like a player. That if you backstab her. Kill her etc if that is part of the game I have no issues. You do not have to like her character etc.

Now in our current game, I have made it clear to my GM go nuts do what you think is right with my wife's character. She is playing a Raith WCV and the character is a sexual deviant to boot.

I am playing the lowly geeky wizard who wants nothing to do with her character's sex life. I know her character will make the other players nervous. I have no issue if one of their characters sleep with my wife's character it is a GAME!


It does make things awkward but if they are gamers. They like you have to separate in the game playing from real life. If none of you do. Then this is not the game for any of you and your group.

From your issues my impression is you are learning an new skill GMing and why we are here.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: sinker on March 22, 2011, 04:11:12 AM
This kind of response bothers me. Dresden is flexible enough that it can be used by all. If you want to make a flat dungeon crawl ala D&D then you conceivably could. If you want to completely ignore the more gritty social aspects of the game you could (in fact SotC is a little closer to that goal). There is no reason to be telling people that the game is "above them."

This person is saying that this situation would be socially awkward in his group. I understand that. Gamers are people. They have feelings, and many people would feel uncomfortable with another person (from whom they desire no attention) trying to seduce them. Jan feels that there are people in his group that may feel that way. He has asked for help. Telling him not to play does not help him find a solution to the problem that works for him.

Sorry if that seems harsh. I'm not trying to flame you. I just don't see how that kind of a thing helps Jan in this situation.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 22, 2011, 06:15:37 AM
Yeah, I'm gonna pretty much say no to ya, Remy.  I've been DMing D&D games for the best part of a decade, and playing in them before that.  What I generally find no one appreciates is a role played seduction because it's hard to impossible for most players, myself included, find a comfortable level at which to role play that seriously.  For a similar reason that I almost never use female villains (or even female NPCs that the party is expected to interact with for a sustained period of time) because it's difficult to take me saying anything in falsetto seriously, I find attempting to seduce someone in game comes off as overblown (Think Flynn from the early parts of Tangled for example), or having to reduce it to 'fade to black' role play, where simply the basic interactions are described, and the story moves on. 

Sinker more or less covered the rest of it. 
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: stabbald on March 22, 2011, 12:46:03 PM
You are afraid of seducing people with your NPC because the person behind it is your ex?

Okay, dude it is a game. I have ran WoD for most of my gaming life. Meaning Vampire: TM, Werewolf: TA, and Mage: TA. For my NPCs I use pictures and say X looks like this. Vampire seducing is an art form unless you run Sabbat games.

This is a game and it is not real. You are playing a woman and he is playing a guy. Seducing him is part of the game. Roleplaying out the scenes are a must in a game like the Dresden Files. If you are feeling awkward about this then just use straight die rolls following the Social Combat Rules in the game.

But if you have an issue running a simple scene like this. Is this the right game for you? Is your group mature enough to play a game with these kind of social aspects? Why do your WCV have to be Raiths there are other families that do not use Lust and if you do not like any of them. Make up your own so you do not have to seduce.


One of the female players is the wife of one of the players.

Now this one is tricky and I understand completely. My wife is in our gaming group. l do a lot of the running so I have to make things very clear that I treat her like a player. That if you backstab her. Kill her etc if that is part of the game I have no issues. You do not have to like her character etc.

Now in our current game, I have made it clear to my GM go nuts do what you think is right with my wife's character. She is playing a Raith WCV and the character is a sexual deviant to boot.

I am playing the lowly geeky wizard who wants nothing to do with her character's sex life. I know her character will make the other players nervous. I have no issue if one of their characters sleep with my wife's character it is a GAME!


It does make things awkward but if they are gamers. They like you have to separate in the game playing from real life. If none of you do. Then this is not the game for any of you and your group.

From your issues my impression is you are learning an new skill GMing and why we are here.


Could this have come across as more condescending? Who are you to tell people what they should and should not feel comfortable with?

As for the issue at hand, does it have to be a lust vampire? If it's feeding habits have not already been determined you could always make it a less awkward emotion.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Chris_Fougere on March 22, 2011, 01:04:16 PM
Could this have come across as more condescending? Who are you to tell people what they should and should not feel comfortable with?

As for the issue at hand, does it have to be a lust vampire? If it's feeding habits have not already been determined you could always make it a less awkward emotion.

100% This:)

I`ve been running games for a long, long, long time, quite probably longer than some of you reading this (going in to my 3rd decade now) and this sort of condescending elitist crap doesn`t help at all.  The OP came here looking for help in a situation his group may find delicate.  Telling him his group may not be mature enough to handle this game isn`t helping.

Step one - talk to the players involved.  Always, always, always make sure everyone is on the same page.  Maybe they`re okay with RPing the seduction aspects and the perceived awkwardness is in your head.  Maybe they`re not and would rather just make some quick descriptions and roll some dice.  Each group dynamic is different but the first step to making things work is to talk it out.

Step Two - Look at the Story and figure out if it is necessary for the WC vamps to feed off lust.  Maybe its not and you can avoid the whole situation without compromising the story.

Step Three - Zig instead of zagging.  If the players (and characters) are expecting WC vampires to come after them, then do something else.  The WC is an ideal behind the scenes bad guy and that is far more their style anyway.  Maybe they have a sorceror under their sway who`ll provide some demonic muscle.  Maybe they pay off a ghoul clan to attack and scatter the PCs and then the WC vampire can pick them off one at a time.  Think outside the box and your story will be better for it.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 22, 2011, 03:49:33 PM
Glad I'm not the only person who found that post condescending.

I guess the only reason I was stuck on it being a Raith WCV was that the brother was, but strictly speaking I suppose they have shown that people can pick up 'feeding habits' different from what they have naturally.  If I went with despair, it could also be directly to related to why the vampire is going out of his way to sabotage them socially before he moves in for the kill... having someone's life fall part would definitely be despair inducing.

@Chris: We're playing a fairly low power game (7 refresh, 26 skill atm), what do you think might be some ideal choices for 'disposable minions' for a despair WCV?
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Remy Sinclair on March 22, 2011, 03:59:03 PM
Could this have come across as more condescending? Who are you to tell people what they should and should not feel comfortable with?

As for the issue at hand, does it have to be a lust vampire? If it's feeding habits have not already been determined you could always make it a less awkward emotion.

He said it himself he is awkward playing the seduction stuff because he has his ex fiancee and girlfriend in the same game! And he has a buddy's wife in there to. He is afraid to do the seduction because it makes himself and his gaming group awkward. If that is making someone awkward and his gaming group as well because of the past history and they cannot keep IRL and Game separate this kind of game is not for them.

Examples of his quotes shall we?

Quote from: Jancarius
HOWEVER, the other thing is... I figure if the WCV does try and directly kill one of the party members, i have to at least sorta roleplay it out.  And where that gets really akward is one of his 2 primary targets is played by my ex-fiancee.  We broke up about a 15 months ago, and we've been doing a pretty good job on keeping everything friendly (and most of the time succeeding).  


However, I think for pretty much everybody (me, my current girl-I'm-dating, and my ex) is SUPER uncomfortable] with the idea of me roleplaying seducing her, ESPECIALLY given the supernatural level of arousal that a white court can trigger (Actually, even if my ex was my current gf, I think she would find roleplaying that somewhat akward, she's very shy about sex).

Jancarius states that he, his ex-fiance and his current girlfriend are all uncomfortable with the idea of sexual seduction in the game. Where do I get that from? What he posted in the second paragraph. That the players especially him and those two women in his life are uncomfortable with the whole sex aspect. He said that not me.

I split the two paragraphs up so you can see what he said and highlighted areas that was said in his post.


Quote from: Jancarius
To get around this, I'm thinking I may just have the WCV be gay (or more likely bi, as the majority of Raith seems to be), but I still feel like that's going to be really awkward, and I have no idea how to roleplay seducing a guy without just saying "Okay, you feel super turned on when this guy gets near you... and moving on".  Suggestions?

He states here he is awkward playing a female character to seduce a man, so he thinks a gay male character would be easier.

Quote from: Jancarius
Oh, and the other female player, the midget werewolf, is the WCVirgin's RL girlfriend, so I'd prefer not to have to RP seducing her, but at least in her case it wouldn't be near as bad.

And there is someone else's girlfriend in this and he feels awkward once again playing the sexual aspect of the game. This own words. Not mine.

I listed both: The Social Combat Rules and use another WTC house even make up your own. Did you not read that? Take a look at your own quote of me.

In my second paragraph under You are afraid of seducing people with your NPC because the person behind it is your ex?
Quote from: Remy Sinclair
This is a game and it is not real. You are playing a woman and he is playing a guy. Seducing him is part of the game. Roleplaying out the scenes are a must in a game like the Dresden Files. If you are feeling awkward about this then just use straight die rolls following the Social Combat Rules in the game.

I clearly state the Social Combat Rules. I also say the game is not real because it seems what happens in game is effecting him and his players look at his quotes.

I even say in the third paragraph under You are afraid of seducing people with your NPC because the person behind it is your ex?

Quote from: Remy Sinclair
But if you have an issue running a simple scene like this. Is this the right game for you? Is your group mature enough to play a game with these kind of social aspects? Why do your WCV have to be Raiths there are other families that do not use Lust and if you do not like any of them. Make up your own so you do not have to seduce.

Once again you say something I did. Make your own. I also ask him the question that every GM on the planet has to ask. Is this the right game for me to run and is this the right game with my set of players.

If I had a character being seductive and it could be an issue with the other players. Like I mention with my wife in my games. I am sick of quoting myself. You should reread it.

Many a player has had issues with my wife playing seductive characters why she stopped until we have our current gaming group. Why my wife avoided those kind of characters until we found a gaming group that can handle this. We found a gaming group that can handle her playing something like that. Obviously there are some issues in this gaming group that make these situations uncomfortable as Jancarius has stated more than once in his statement.

Obviously in Jancarius's gaming group his girlfriend is uncomfortable with sex IRL and in game. She also has issues with him playing a NPC seducing his ex-fiance's PC especially for the strong sexual desires it brings out. He himself stated he has an issue trying to seduce a male PC. He even said he has issue trying to seduce his ex-fiance's girlfriend's PC as well. So everyone in his group he states is uncomfortable with this aspect.

It is his job as GM/Storyteller to see if the game is the right one for his gaming group. Yes, it is harsh of me asking him if his group has the maturity to play a game like this, but he himself needs to take a look at the make up of the game. If his GF had issues with sex and sexuality as he stated and I highlighted. I would have steered my ex-fiance away from playing a Raith Vamp. You need to make sure what is being played in your gaming group will make everyone comfortable.

Some groups can separate IRL and Game stuff and some cannot. Obviously this is extremely difficult with all these people involve and he does not seem to have the experience to run a seductive NPC (his/her quote of not knowing how to seduce a guy so playing a gay male character might help).

Now I listed my experience because I have gone through exactly that (other than having my ex playing with me and my current girlfriend and my ex's current girlfriend) there seems to be some fear of jealousy issues here.

So once again is this the right game for his/her gaming group? Is it constructed the way to not create conflict. Right now it is sounding like it is and that can cause major issues. If the players cannot separate IRL and Gaming. Start from Scratch or run a different game.

Harsh but hey I have GMed for 20 years and sometimes as the GM you have to make those hard choices like this. The least thing you want is to tear your gaming group apart.







And yes not all games are for all gaming groups.

Maybe I was not clear as I was dealing with both a sick wife and a 3 month old in the middle of the night as a wrote this.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 22, 2011, 04:14:08 PM
I think you definitely mis-interpreted what I said.  One, it's a girl I'm dating, not my girlfriend.  Two, she's not in the game, but because I like her enough to tell her things that I think would concern her, I let her know that the potential scene might come up.  Three, it's also not a friend's wife, just his girlfriend.  I actually don't know where you got the wife bit, I understand the first 2 misinterpretations.  Then in your last paragraph, there's all kind of wrong information.  For example, none of the girls are playing WCVamp or WCVirgin characters.  One of the male players is a WCVirgin, and he's intending to STAY a WCVirgin for as long as he can (with Tarsiel actively sabotaging this). 

So while you may have been trying to be in some way helpful, I still find your 'help' so insulting in it's condescension that it just makes me want to start trolling you.  I think the real conceit here is that you treat it like "IF YOU CAN'T HANDEL THE SEX IN THE GAME, GTFO THE GAME!"  If you had instead suggested "Perhaps you should avoid using WCV villains, or stick to the other families"  initially, it might have gone over better.  But instead, you come off sounding like a stuck up Cam LARPer whose been playing his fantasy WoD self for too long and thinks that because he hooked up with some Cam LARP girls IC once, that he is a master of in game seduction.

I'm not sure about your ability to do a female voice, but mine is on the far side of ridiculous sounding falsetto.  So having a villain with a Warner Brothers Cartoon voice just doesn't really seem like a great choice, thus, male villains.  It's not that it makes me particularly uncomfortable, it just sounds absurd to be threatened by Bugs Bunny's female voice.  You are correct I don't know how to run a believable seductive NPC.  My personal method of seduction involves utilizing small physical contact, flirting, and a other subtle things, and doesn't play well to a tabletop style game where the players are sitting around a table.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 22, 2011, 04:41:37 PM
The basic tenet of responding to a thread asking for help is that one attempt to provide help.

"Pack up your toys and go home" is not, alas, a very productive message. Neither is "suck it up, monkey."
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Saedar on March 22, 2011, 05:10:53 PM
If you still want to involve the players, as opposed to someone close to them, it may be a situation where you boil it down to mechanics only. You may want to discuss this with your players and set up some ground rules. If you have past and present romantic involvements going on between multiple players, it could be helpful to find out their positions on it.

I pretty much always advocate a very open and approachable method of GMing. Talk to your players, find out what you and they are comfortable roleplaying and then go from there. Happy gaming!
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: sinker on March 22, 2011, 05:23:15 PM
Ok, ok. Everyone should probably calm a bit. I don't think I've ever seen Devonapple "speak" in a harsh tone.

So once again is this the right game for his/her gaming group? Is it constructed the way to not create conflict. Right now it is sounding like it is and that can cause major issues. If the players cannot separate IRL and Gaming. Start from Scratch or run a different game.

Harsh but hey I have GMed for 20 years and sometimes as the GM you have to make those hard choices like this. The least thing you want is to tear your gaming group apart.

I think this is the bit that bothers me Remy. What is your definition of "this game"? If your definition is a game based on seduction and sexual themes then perhaps I would agree with you to an extent. Jan has clearly stated that a significant portion of his group may be uncomfortable, which leads me to believe that that kind of thing would likely be tough. In that case he might want to just run something like this off screen.

If your definition is DFRPG then I have to very strongly disagree. If that is the case you seem to have a very narrow definition of how this game "must" be played and that is the part that bugs me. To say that any game "must" be played in any fashion is to be hazy on the stronger aspects of what role-playing is. Role-playing is a hobby to be enjoyed, by anyone, in whatever fashion they see fit. I have friends that like to play D&D fourth like a board game, playing to win, with little or no separation between player and character. But they have fun. Personally I'd rather get into the character's skin, really think about who this other person is and how they react, and then be them for a few hours. I don't tell them they're "doing it wrong" just because we like different parts.

(and yes, we have all played DFRPG together. And we all had fun)
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Chris_Fougere on March 22, 2011, 05:33:03 PM
.  But instead, you come off sounding like a stuck up Cam LARPer whose been playing his fantasy WoD self for too long and thinks that because he hooked up with some Cam LARP girls IC once, that he is a master of in game seduction.

Not helping your case any to make broad generalizations about other gamers.  Just sayin`

I'm not sure about your ability to do a female voice, but mine is on the far side of ridiculous sounding falsetto.  So having a villain with a Warner Brothers Cartoon voice just doesn't really seem like a great choice, thus, male villains.  It's not that it makes me particularly uncomfortable, it just sounds absurd to be threatened by Bugs Bunny's female voice.  You are correct I don't know how to run a believable seductive NPC.  My personal method of seduction involves utilizing small physical contact, flirting, and a other subtle things, and doesn't play well to a tabletop style game where the players are sitting around a table.

I`ve never once in my nearly 30 years of GMing tried to do a female voice.  Some people are great at voices, dialects, accents, etc.  I know I`m not one of them.  That doesn`t stop my NPCs from being memorable or distinct.  Its about word choice, speaking cadence, whether or not they make bad puns, if they use double entendres.  Silly voices are distracting, its what the NPC says and how they behave that`s important and giving them distinct voices and personalities will do far more than any falsetto ever will.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 22, 2011, 08:53:20 PM
Not helping your case any to make broad generalizations about other gamers.  Just sayin`
Agreed, I just got annoyed and countered with a sterotype.  My apologies to any Camarilla Larpers I may have offended.

Quote
I`ve never once in my nearly 30 years of GMing tried to do a female voice.  Some people are great at voices, dialects, accents, etc.  I know I`m not one of them.  That doesn`t stop my NPCs from being memorable or distinct.  Its about word choice, speaking cadence, whether or not they make bad puns, if they use double entendres.  Silly voices are distracting, its what the NPC says and how they behave that`s important and giving them distinct voices and personalities will do far more than any falsetto ever will.
I'm fine with accents and voices, as long as they fall in the tenor-bass range.  Occasionally I can do a more upper pitch male voice, but it's often a bit squeaky.  I just find doing a female voice impossible for my range without going full falsetto. 

As mentioned, I think I'm going to go with a despair inducing WCV.  Will give him lots of motive to incite general misery in the populace without any akward seduction scene.  My question is though, what is the 'killing' factor for fear and despair vamps?  Do despair ones only feed complelty by driving targets to suicide?  How do fear ones feed?
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 22, 2011, 08:57:23 PM
My question is though, what is the 'killing' factor for fear and despair vamps?  Do despair ones only feed complelty by driving targets to suicide?  How do fear ones feed?

Generally, it is suicide for despair, or heart attack for fear. Plenty of debate on this, though, which means plenty of room to determine what works best for you. Ultimately, something which leaves little to no trace of the predator. A supernatural investigator will eventually detect that something is off about the remnants of one these tragedies, either metaphysically or through questioning.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: sandchigger on March 22, 2011, 09:18:35 PM
Go with Wrath, nothing says "mundane death" like "beaten to death by the six dudes he decided to pick a fight with."
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 22, 2011, 09:23:04 PM
Go with Wrath, nothing says "mundane death" like "beaten to death by the six dudes he decided to pick a fight with."

"Officer, I knew the victim, and he worked with children! The most level-headed, peaceful man... he's never been to a bar in the twenty years I've known him! Why would he pick a fight with six bikers?"

And, of course, the bikers could be Lycanthropes, a supernatural menace of sorts, but in this case, the unwitting executors of the WCV's will.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Chris_Fougere on March 22, 2011, 10:13:37 PM
Go with Wrath, nothing says "mundane death" like "beaten to death by the six dudes he decided to pick a fight with."

oooohhh.... I like this idea for Wrath vamps:)  I'm so going to steal this:)
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: ways and means on March 22, 2011, 10:20:18 PM
Wrath vampires get serious use out of the stunt infuriate.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Mal_Luck on March 23, 2011, 08:15:15 AM
Despair/Fear is probably the way to go to avoid awkwardness. Wrath is a good choice to if you want to make a custom house.

I'm currently working on a Sloth Vampire from what I'm going to call the House Pax. Death by Laziness: dehydration, starvation, too lazy to breath, heart stop beating, brain stops firing synapses, etc.

Feel free to use the idea if you want.  :)
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: stabbald on March 23, 2011, 09:25:03 AM
Despair/Fear is probably the way to go to avoid awkwardness. Wrath is a good choice to if you want to make a custom house.

I'm currently working on a Sloth Vampire from what I'm going to call the House Pax. Death by Laziness: dehydration, starvation, too lazy to breath, heart stop beating, brain stops firing synapses, etc.

Feel free to use the idea if you want.  :)

I love this idea. Mostly because it's a contradiction. Death by accelerated laziness.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 23, 2011, 06:16:41 PM
Right now, I'm considering a 7 sins approach to WCVs... maybe say basically, that the original 7 sins are the 7 oldest (and strongest) White Court Vampires...  Raith as Lust is easy, but fear and despair perhaps could be worked to fit the theme (as obviously, could any additional houses). 

What would be the 'initial feed' for WCVirgins from some of these other houses though?  The average WCV isn't going to want to drive some to despair or scare them to a heart attack when their hunger isn't 'in control' yet enough to force the issue.  And in the case of Wrath WCVs, you wouldn't even neccessarily have to make it fatal... if you just induced wrath on say, a person paralyzed in a wheelchair with no way to move, you could generate as much rage to feed on as you wanted without killing them (unless I guess you pushed it to a point where their heart exploded from adrenaline overload or something).
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Tedronai on March 23, 2011, 07:00:01 PM
if you just induced wrath on say, a person paralyzed in a wheelchair with no way to move, you could generate as much rage to feed on as you wanted without killing them (unless I guess you pushed it to a point where their heart exploded from adrenaline overload or something).

WCVs don't ACTUALLY feed on emotions.  They feed on life force.  The emotion just serves to moderate the transfer of the energy.
It's like eating peanut butter on celery sticks.  You're not actually after the celery (well, most people aren't), you're after the peanut butter, and are just using the celery to get it to your mouth.

So it's not simply a matter of 'generating more rage' and thus the victim not suffering/dying from the feeding.  More potent expression of the emotion will, at most, hasten their death by allowing the WCV to draw out their life force faster (a bigger stick of celery holds more peanut butter).
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 23, 2011, 07:03:04 PM
What would be the 'initial feed' for WCVirgins from some of these other houses though?  

It doesn't have to be overt. In fact, the WCVirgin won't necessarily realize it is even happening. Think about people who are drama enablers, who give bad advice, "frienemies" who claim to be a friend but secretly work to make those friends fail, feel insecure, etc.

For mundane people, these things all satisfy some need in the "bad friend": feel superior, feel needed, that sort of thing. They may or may not realize they are doing them, but they do them for a clear reason, be it conscious or subconscious.

For a WCVirgin, they may not even realize how or why they are pushing their friends/accomplices/strangers to do these things, but it feels good to them, so they do it, as subtly as they can.

For Despair, these WCVirgins may be drawn to loners, sensitive types, people with problems. And then, through advice and other subtle manipulations, they eventually drive that first person to commit suicide or hurt themselves. And then they know what is happening. So they engineer other sources of Despair, or latch onto existing sufferers. But they "killed" someone using their abilities.

For Wrath, these WCVirgins may be drawn to rebellious types, or perhaps even the opposite. Maybe they latch onto a bullied friend, consoling and encouraging, never outright planning or contributing, but subtly working that victim, fanning the embers until that first victim explodes in an outburst of pent-up rage, usually by confronting a bully figure (with disastrous consequences) or even worse, perhaps some sort of revenge scenario like Columbine. And then, as with Despair, they know what is happening, and look for victims or potential victims of Wrath. But they "killed" someone using their abilities.

Ultimately, you pick a desired emotion, find people who are susceptible to that emotion, who may be pushed to die (or die trying something) because of it. And when the instigator is a WCVirgin, they may not know why, but they know it feels good to give bad advice, to be there for the victim in a way they can twist.

But it is true that some of these seem to require a lot of bending in order to get the WCVirgin to fulfill the "kill" requirement for their full powers.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: ways and means on March 23, 2011, 07:19:33 PM
I like the idea of wrath wcv who goes around being a trolling just for the satisfaction of rubbing people up the wrong.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Tedronai on March 23, 2011, 07:30:15 PM
Ultimately, you pick a desired emotion, find people who are susceptible to that emotion, who may be pushed to die (or die trying something) because of it.

It's not merely a matter of 'pushing someone to die' in an expression of the emotion, but killing them by feeding during that expression.

Quote from: YS85
the condition
doesn’t truly take hold until the “virgin” White
Court vampire has killed for the first time with
his emotion-feeding abilities.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: sandchigger on March 23, 2011, 08:34:20 PM
oooohhh.... I like this idea for Wrath vamps:)  I'm so going to steal this:)

I've had an idea floating around in the back of my head for a Wrath-feeding WCV for a while now. Not sure I'll ever get to use it, but if you can make use of them then please do! :)

Quote from: ways and means
Wrath vampires get serious use out of the stunt infuriate.

Ain't synergy grand? ;)
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 23, 2011, 09:03:44 PM
It's not merely a matter of 'pushing someone to die' in an expression of the emotion, but killing them by feeding during that expression.

Cool - so how should a GM narrate the various types of WCVirgins making their first kill?
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: sandchigger on March 23, 2011, 09:08:36 PM
Cool - so how should a GM narrate the various types of WCVirgins making their first kill?

Lust we've seen (sorta, in a non-graphic fashion) in the books. Fear and Despair were likewise covered.

I envision sloth vampires waking up full and brimming with energy among the bodies of their friends/victims who "just went off to sleep and never woke up". For Wrath vamps there's the aforementioned "got killin' mad but then got kilt'" thing. The movie Se7en showed us an example of a Gluttony vampire's victim
(click to show/hide)
.

What other fun and exciting WCv to WCV examples would ya like?
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Tedronai on March 23, 2011, 09:16:17 PM
Sloth and Gluttony really aren't EMOTIONS.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: sandchigger on March 23, 2011, 09:18:51 PM
No, but they are sins which Jancarius mentioned wanting to base the WCV families in his game around. Really the only difficult one there that I can see is Pride. How does someone Proud themselves to death? The closest I can think of is "too proud to stop doing something bad for them" or possibly "too proud to ask for help".
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: ways and means on March 23, 2011, 09:29:50 PM
No, but they are sins which Jancarius mentioned wanting to base the WCV families in his game around. Really the only difficult one there that I can see is Pride. How does someone Proud themselves to death? The closest I can think of is "too proud to stop doing something bad for them" or possibly "too proud to ask for help".

Organ failure from lack of life energy.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 23, 2011, 09:44:16 PM
No, but they are sins which Jancarius mentioned wanting to base the WCV families in his game around. Really the only difficult one there that I can see is Pride. How does someone Proud themselves to death? The closest I can think of is "too proud to stop doing something bad for them" or possibly "too proud to ask for help".
Organ failure from lack of life energy.

Well, as was mentioned, it may be the "first kill" which brings a WCVirgin over into its full abilities, but it isn't the physical death that they really feed on. They just cause so much life energy loss that the victim's body dies, unable to support itself.

So there are two questions, and the answers, as I understand, are:

1) What does a WCV victim look like?

Answer: like any other WCV victim.

They prefer people who are displaying particular types of emotion, as they feed more effectively in those cases. They have learned to mask evidence of the predation by inspiring their victims to display behaviors symptomatic of an unrelated issue (suicide, in some cases), or fright (scaring them into displaying a frightened face before they die), but these are decoys, red herrings. Ultimately, they all die of life energy deficit.

2) How does a WCVirgin get its first "kill"?

Answer: like any other WCV victim.

Without knowing it, they drain the life energy from a suitable candidate. The candidate may have been a "prime target" owing to a particular House predilection towards a particular emotion, but ultimately that first death is simple energy drain.

So that means that, if a WCV never learned how to pass in mortal society, how to pick suitable candidates, or disguise their kills, there would just be a bunch of victims in its wake with no obvious source of death, most of which would be pigeonholed into "heart attack."
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: sinker on March 23, 2011, 10:20:09 PM
I kinda like the idea of a WCV that skips all the emotion and just rips the life out of someone, but it seems to me that the negative emotion is their means of feeding. That the emotion is somehow necessary to the process.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 23, 2011, 10:47:39 PM
I kinda like the idea of a WCV that skips all the emotion and just rips the life out of someone...

Didn't Lord Raith claim to be able to do that?
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Tedronai on March 23, 2011, 11:27:18 PM
I don't recall that, but then...he also claimed to
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Richard_Chilton on March 24, 2011, 02:35:31 AM
You can always pull things back a bit on the detail - treating almost as a downtime scene.  Something like:
"Okay, that seduction happens and it was great sex.  Now what do you do?"

Richard
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Tedronai on March 24, 2011, 02:44:56 AM
The problem with that being that being seduced by a Raith is (vastly) more likely to result in something like:
"Okay, that seduction happens and it was great sex.  You have both mild and moderate mental consequences as a result of this scene appropriate to having been fed upon by an emotional vampire feeding on lust.  Here are some Fate Points.  Now what do you do?"

Some players might have a problem with that sort of thing.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 24, 2011, 03:01:23 AM
Some players might have a problem with that sort of thing.

That will certainly depend on the table. The players who want to "duke it out" in an encounter (rather than agreeing to a Concession that nets them some Fate Points and sidesteps some table awkwardness) are hopefully not the same players who would shy away from the type of encounter. But all things are possible.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: sinker on March 24, 2011, 03:03:48 AM
That's the kind of thing that you can always do with a player in private. Take them aside before hand, tell them your intent and try to play out the scene. Then while you're playing with the rest of the group you do the "Okay, that seduction happens and it was great sex.  You have both mild and moderate mental consequences as a result of the scene that we played earlier.  Here are some Fate Points.  Now what do you do?"
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Tedronai on March 24, 2011, 03:09:06 AM
That will certainly depend on the table. The players who want to "duke it out" in an encounter (rather than agreeing to a Concession that nets them some Fate Points and sidesteps some table awkwardness) are hopefully not the same players who would shy away from the type of encounter. But all things are possible.

Oh, of course.  If the player(s) is(/are) fine with it, then go for it.

Just make sure that those consequences (and Fate Points) are part of the discussion before this scene goes forward to make sure that the player is fine both with the roleplaying consequences of the off-screen events and with their mechanical impact in the form of consequences.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 24, 2011, 06:08:34 AM
So a WCV can just literally life drain someone to death with physical contact?  My players may want to explore that as a combat application later... Though I was also of the understanding they needed the emotion to DO the pull, but is that not the case?
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 24, 2011, 06:33:14 AM
Feeding Touch. Physical contact is where it’s at for a satisfying, long-term meal. When a victim is in the throes of an eligible emotion (usually easy for a White Court vampire using his Incite Emotion ability, page 172), you may draw some of his life force out of him to sustain you. This is done as a psychological attack with an appropriate skill (usually Deceit or Intimidation). If you have the Incite Emotion ability, inciting the emotion and feeding on it may be done as a single action, based on a single roll."

So the WCV enters conflict with the victim, and attacks using Deceit/Intimidation/etc. It deals straight Mental stress, and the victim defends with whatever makes sense. If the victim isn't already experiencing the right emotion, the WCV can use Incite Emotion (YS173) to place that Emotion as a temporary Aspect. And if they are powerful enough, this can even be done at range, or with multiple emotions.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Tedronai on March 24, 2011, 06:37:01 AM
Can the feeding also be done at range, given the appropriate upgrade to Incite Emotions?  I was never quite clear on that, but based on the novels, I would suspect not.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 24, 2011, 08:28:33 AM
Can the feeding also be done at range, given the appropriate upgrade to Incite Emotions?  I was never quite clear on that, but based on the novels, I would suspect not.

It's not clear to me, either. We should search the board to see if this has been established already.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: sandchigger on March 24, 2011, 02:21:45 PM
Quote
Didn't Lord Raith claim to be able to do that?

Yes, it was referred to in the books as the kiss of death and it was implied (if not outright stated) that the tradition was started by Lord Raith.

Quote
Can the feeding also be done at range, given the appropriate upgrade to Incite Emotions?  I was never quite clear on that, but based on the novels, I would suspect not.

I'd say it could be done at least at a small range, as seen in White Knight where
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 24, 2011, 07:38:58 PM
How should I define True Courage?  I decided for now to make him something along the lines of this below:
Antonio Skavis
High Aspect: White Court Out For Bloody Red Revenge
Trouble:  Revenge Tunnel Vision
Stress
Physical (Endurance)
Mental (Conviction)
Social (Presence)
Armor:
Refresh Cost -10 Skills
Stunts and Powers
Emotional Vampire (-1)
Human Guise (0)
Incite Emotion (Despair, Lust, At Range, Lasting Emotion) (-4)
Feeding Dependency (+1)
   Inhuman Recovery (-2) Catch: True Love/True Courage (0)
   Inhuman Speed (-2)
   Inhuman Strength (-2)
Skills
Great(+4): Deceit, Presence
Good(+3): Intimidation, Resources, Fists, Contacts
Fair(+2):  Athletics, Alertness, Discipline, Endurance,
Average(+1):  Weapons,  Lore, Conviction, Rapport,
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: sandchigger on March 24, 2011, 07:54:27 PM
Shouldn't it be -4 for Incite Emotion?

-1 for first emotion
-1 for second emotion
-1 for At Range
-1 for Lasting
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 24, 2011, 08:01:17 PM
Er yes
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 25, 2011, 03:43:23 PM
And his backstory.  Do I have to put a disclaimer or anything, BTW, if I want this to be licensed in the way that anyone can crib it for their games, but not for profit?

Antonio grew up as very much a bad kid, but the kind of bad kid that all the teachers loved and whose bullying was done through carefully placed words rather than fists.  He and his younger brother, Elias, often made snide fun of other kids when they were young, enjoying the misery they brought to others.  Because both were outwardly good looking and charming, no few people flocked to them for attention, and the brothers took full advantage of this to get whatever they wanted.  When Antonio was about 16, he seduced the Val Victorian of his school, and after a year of dating, slept with her.  He fed on her completely, leaving  her dead body behind him in an initial panic.  Members of House Skavis had been watching him, and came to him within hours, informing him of his now fully realized true nature, and his brother shared the potential.  Antonio, still in a rush from his first kill, agreed to help push Elias into the same situation. 
   Both Elias and Antonio feed off lust as well as the normal Skavis despair, and like to mix both whenever possible.  They will often seduce models or actresses (women in high pressure beauty-related careers), and do everything they can to break down the woman’s confidence while still keeping them on the hook.  The brothers hold themselves back from fully feeding on the women at first, using the steady weakening of their will from the life draining powers of the White Court to push them closer to the edge, until eventually, the girls either kill themselves or are completely drained in one full feeding. 
   Like all White Court vampires, Antonio and Elias like to work from the shadows and through thralls and others.  To attract food however, they each began to involve themselves in different agencies.  Antonio started a fashion line of clothing.  He has done well in that regard, and has a few successful product lines.  When operating in the mortal realm, Antionio and Elias go by the last name Delgado.  Elias decided to focus his interests more on the pharmaceutical testing route, and would often feed off patients in the ‘placebo’ category of anti-depressants to… modify the results of the tests for his company. 
   Recently, however, Elias was killed in the Paris undercity by a pair of sorcerers.  Antonio flew into a rage when he found out, and has rededicated his time and effort entirely into finding and having his revenge on the two people responsible for his brother’s death.  After a not insignificant investment of money and favors, he has tracked Melody and Lucian DeLacois to Denton, Texas, and has just arrived in DFW.  It will not be enough to just kill them for Antonio.  He wants to bleed their souls dry and watch as they draw the knife across their own throats as they crawl through the ruin he intends to make of their lives.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Richard_Chilton on March 25, 2011, 05:02:32 PM
If you really want a sadistic villain, here's something you might try:
Have him convince one of their relatives/loved ones/friends/whoever he plans to kill first that the PC are behind everything.

There's getting a video of a loved one dying in pain, then there's getting a video of a loved one dying pain who had been convinced that the PC is responsible for the torture and death.

And the worse bit? The PCs are responsible.  If they hadn't killed that WCV's brother then this wouldn't be happening to their loved ones.  "We warned him what would happen.  We told him that if he hit us then we would hit him back - but he was arrogant.  He knew we were coming for you and didn't bother trying to protect you.  It's almost as if he wants you to suffer.  Why does he want you to suffer?" - that sort of thing can work.

But dealing with torture and death can be as bad (or worse) than sex - so make sure your group is okay with the details.

And remember to borrow from other sources for descriptions of what is happening.  The best psych torture I've ever read was in a Draka book.  They had one device - a modified electric chair - that has to be the most disturbing thing in literature.  I can't see ever using it in a game - but it could be used in a Dresden one as a combined social/mental/physical take out (yes - it operated on all three levels).

Richard
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Tedronai on March 26, 2011, 12:18:14 AM
It's not clear to me, either. We should search the board to see if this has been established already.

I did some digging.  I certainly couldn't find anything, but maybe it's just buried deeper, or using slightly different language, I don't know.




Another question, semi-related:
In the absence of Lasting Emotion, what kind of consequences should a combined Incite+Feed roll be inflicting?  And should such a consequence be capable of counting for the emotion being present in subsequent exchanges?


edit: on second thought, I think these questions are sufficiently divergent from the original topic of this thread, that I'll create a new thread for them, and any other like them that may come up in the pursuing these
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 26, 2011, 07:01:13 PM
How do you guys handle 'long distance' social challenges?   IE, Antonio starts a smear campaign claiming that Lucian is a pedophile/murderer/arsonist/jaywalker.  Now I assume this would induce social stress on Lucian, but how does he 'counter' it?
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: AlexFallad on March 27, 2011, 01:20:26 AM
As far as RPing seduction, I highly recommend a viewing of The Community's D&D episode.

Just sayin'...

Everyone at the table watching beforehand might help lighten the mood :)
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 27, 2011, 05:23:29 AM
As far as RPing seduction, I highly recommend a viewing of The Community's D&D episode.

Just sayin'...

Everyone at the table watching beforehand might help lighten the mood :)
We all watch Community, and yeah, the sort of Jeff-Abed awkwardness is what I wanted to avoid.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: noclue on March 27, 2011, 09:17:58 AM
First, wow. With that group dynamic, do whatever you need to do to keep the peace.

There's really no badge of honor for roleplaying uncomfortable stuff. Just drop the curtain before the embarassing stuff starts and let that all be "offscreen" if you want.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on March 27, 2011, 09:51:19 AM
Turns out I may have been somewhat over worried in my ex's reactions.... It wasn't the WCV, but she did hit on one the mercs working for him pretty hard without a problem.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on March 28, 2011, 05:34:26 PM
Turns out I may have been somewhat over worried in my ex's reactions.

But now you know! And knowing is half the battle.

How do you guys handle 'long distance' social challenges?   IE, Antonio starts a smear campaign claiming that Lucian is a pedophile/murderer/arsonist/jaywalker.  Now I assume this would induce social stress on Lucian, but how does he 'counter' it?

I think for situations like this, you "zoom out" the scale of the conflict. Make each exchange more like a day or a week. Each player gets a turn during each exchange. That means Lucian makes a defense roll against Antonio's smear campaign. Maybe Lucian's associates also help, either by digging up dirt on Antonio, breaking a few legs, hacking his finances, finding out why Antonio is doing this, whatever, so long as they are making rolls and participating in the conflict. Don't feel obligated to turn any of those exchanges into full-blown scenes - just count the conflict solely in terms of the adversarial Antonio:Lucian relationship, and only use their Social Stress tracks.

However, if your players have a lot of irons in the fire, and end up in a lot of small-scale Conflicts during the long-term smear campaign which would count as clearing out the Social Stress tracks, you may just want to play the smear campaign as a Conflict for Consequence: don't worry about dealing Social Stress - make the players roll to keep Lucian from taking a straight Social Consequence.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on April 01, 2011, 01:06:20 AM
Okay, so last session went pretty good.  The party has now found out that 2 of their number has been specifically targeted by Antonio.  Antonio has offered Sheridan a reward, that he doesn't much think he'll actually take, if he kills Melody for him.  Lucian, the one who actually cut off his brothers head, he wants to drag out and make suffer.  While normally White Courts are fine doing a sustained subtle manipulation war, Antonio is pretty much in the white court version of seeing red, and is barely holding back from just kicking in Lucian's door with a grenade launcher and blowing him to hell.

I intended to make this a case of "okay, the pressure's on, now you guys need to use social skills to counter his manipulations and smear campaigns, and then track him down and kill him."  First part, so far so good, but the party has decided killing him is a bad idea, cause it will just draw more White Court attention to themselves.  Which might be a fair enough assumption.  So now Melody is looking into how she can fake her death.  The paintomancer (Thaumaturge) wants to try and create a 'replica' of Melody out of ectoplasm and then have Sheridan kill it.  What kind of pitfalls, checks, flaws, and successes do you guys see in this plan?
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on April 01, 2011, 01:50:32 AM
So now Melody is looking into how she can fake her death.  The paintomancer (Thaumaturge) wants to try and create a 'replica' of Melody out of ectoplasm and then have Sheridan kill it.  What kind of pitfalls, checks, flaws, and successes do you guys see in this plan?

Creating a convincing enough ectoplasmic replica will require excellent anatomical knowledge. First stop may be to find a sympathetic special effects technician to help design the illusion, if it's just to stage the kill. And even then, anyone with The Sight can see right through it.

That said, making a human-sized Ectoplasmic body should be a basic 5-shift Conjuration for a no frills mundane person lasting however you determine to be the default duration (until sunset/sunrise being a good one).

Add extra shifts to make it harder to see through it (1 shift = +1 to the difficulty).

*For 2 shifts each, you can add basic Aspects to maintain the deception: these Aspects would help define the Construct and allow it to make simple Declarations. For 4 shifts it can instead be an Aspect that can be tagged once for free, in case it becomes a Conflict between the "evidence" and an investigator. It should have at least one 4-shift Aspect "Clone of Melody."

Also, you may want to incorporate some of the victim's actual blood so that a Dexter-style trophy can be "taken."

Also, I can't imagine Antonio will blindly trust his would-be henchman, so Sheridan will likely need to prepare to withstand rigorous mental/psych/emotional assault to convince the WCV that the deed was carried out as agreed. Unless the plan is to fool Sheridan, too. And that is assuming Antonio doesn't insist on seeing/touching/desecrating the body.

* this is from a set of Construct guidelines we developed on the board, and these rules are not canon except insofar as 2 shifts seems to be equivalent to a level of complexity in the basic Conjuration guidelines, enough for a basic animating force.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on April 01, 2011, 04:06:31 AM
For an ectoplasmic replica like that, would it still fool him on initial examination, as long as the time limit hadn't passed?
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: devonapple on April 01, 2011, 04:35:51 AM
For an ectoplasmic replica like that, would it still fool him on initial examination, as long as the time limit hadn't passed?

If the WCV has no magical senses, fails the Investigation check to determine its true nature, and has no other Stunts or powers that could plausibly penetrate the ruse, then yes, the Conjured corpse should fool him on initial examination.

To be safe, the Ritual should be loaded with enough shifts in Complexity that nobody other then a deity (or a character with a lot of CSI Aspects and Fate Points to burn) would see through it: pick Superb or higher and then add 5 shifts to that (so at least 10 shifts to make it extremely convincing).

Unless you want to handle the scene some other way, that is.


Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: BumblingBear on April 01, 2011, 05:14:13 AM
I would have made the WCV of the despair type... and then roleplayed trying to get my x to commit suicide. :)

Far less awkward and possibly therapeutic.
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: Jancarius on April 01, 2011, 04:39:07 PM
The White Court WAS made into a despair type. 
Title: Re: White Court NPCs and not being super akward
Post by: BumblingBear on April 01, 2011, 06:23:17 PM
The White Court WAS made into a despair type. 

Sorry.  I didn't read the whole thread.  I suck. :P