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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Psyklone on September 29, 2020, 01:33:13 PM
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Ok, First, Peace talks and Battlegrounds...one helluva ride.
I just finished Battlegrounds, stayed up all night reading. Rudolph is now my most hated character. That said, I actually haven't hated any characters in the series before, as I appreciated Jim's storytelling and skill. Before, he was an enjoyable nuisance, because I felt he would eventually guide the plot in some way. Now I straight up just hate him. I had my suspicions that Murphy would not live, but to go like that, was just terrible. At least in the way we would want such a character to exit... As much as I hate it, it fits with how he has written Rudolph over the years, so I can't nitpick on basis of writing skill/experience, but dangit why did it have to be like that?!
RIP Murph, I will miss you. I had hoped for a different outcome, but I guess with a Big O'l Apocalyptic trilogy headed our way the series can't really end all sunshine and rainbows.
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Ok, First, Peace talks and Battlegrounds...one helluva ride.
I just finished Battlegrounds, stayed up all night reading. Rudolph is now my most hated character. That said, I actually haven't hated any characters in the series before, as I appreciated Jim's storytelling and skill. Before, he was an enjoyable nuisance, because I felt he would eventually guide the plot in some way. Now I straight up just hate him. I had my suspicions that Murphy would not live, but to go like that, was just terrible. At least in the way we would want such a character to exit... As much as I hate it, it fits with how he has written Rudolph over the years, so I can't nitpick on basis of writing skill/experience, but dangit why did it have to be like that?!
RIP Murph, I will miss you. I had hoped for a different outcome, but I guess with a Big O'l Apocalyptic trilogy headed our way the series can't really end all sunshine and rainbows.
Lucky you! My book is still in limbo, though it is claimed that I will get it by eleven p.m. tonight!
Not surprised at either thing... Looking forward to the read! Hopefully will get the book sooner than later... Will be better than watching the debates tonight. ::)
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Rudy soiled himself, called that one (not that spoilery or unexpected really), and even got Murphy’s ‘big’ moment right based on the trailer.
It was inevitable that Murphy would die, it has been telegraphed since Skin Game, and the final nail in her coffin was sleeping with Harry (future paramours beware).
We now know Rudolph indeed was the ‘Man in the suit’ in the trailer although ‘Man’ is a real stretch to describe Rudolph
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Rudy soiled himself, called that one (not that spoilery or unexpected really), and even got Murphy’s ‘big’ moment right based on the trailer.
It was inevitable that Murphy would die, it has been telegraphed since Skin Game, and the final nail in her coffin was sleeping with Harry (future paramours beware).
We now know Rudolph indeed was the ‘Man in the suit’ in the trailer although ‘Man’ is a real stretch to describe Rudolph
Slime ball might be more accurate.. Yeah, one of my guesses especially after getting a peek at chapter five that the man in the suit would turn out to be him. Though I can't wait to find out how Murphy suddenly if physically able to get onto the battle field, or does that ultimately contribute to her demise? Sort of suicide by Titan? My book is somewhere between Baltimore and here, I live in Arkansas... At least they are saying now I should get it by 8:00 p.m. which is better than 11:00 p.m. that they said last night... :-\
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It will be interesting to see if rudolph actually gets arrested for killing murphy and if he will get off
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No body, the witness was Harry. I suspect Rudy will get medical retirement, and Bradley go to SI, as tragically Rawlings has subsequently died from cliche poisoning opening up a space.
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Sadly,
I'm not sure anything will happen. It would be best if he were not even mentioned, and the character thrown into the bin. As it stands, the only living witness to actually see how Murphy died is Harry. Harry, who was going to have a warrant put out on him. If Rudolph and whomever has been pulling his strings stir the pot, Harry would be put under the microscope again. It would be easier for the story if Rudolph was now background, because if we keep focusing on him, Jim would have a tough time actually focusing on the enemies he needs to deal with to wrap things up.
Sigh, Murphy being killed was kinda like a bomb going off in my head... I hadn't expected her to live per se, because she was aging and getting hammered each book, so there was no way she could realistically participate in the BAT. I had hoped she would be sidelined as support, or go out well. This just kinda leaves a rotten taste in my mouth, but that could just be my love/hope for the character...
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I have to admit, I get why she died, but I was really hoping she wouldn't. Such a great character
Jim made quite a big point about him getting justice instead of revenge, I just wondering is this another area to send Harry towards a darker path if he gets off.
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I'm not sure anything will happen. It would be best if he were not even mentioned, and the character thrown into the bin. As it stands, the only living witness to actually see how Murphy died is Harry. Harry, who was going to have a warrant put out on him. If Rudolph and whomever has been pulling his strings stir the pot, Harry would be put under the microscope again. It would be easier for the story if Rudolph was now background, because if we keep focusing on him, Jim would have a tough time actually focusing on the enemies he needs to deal with to wrap things up.
I could sort of see Rudy showing back up in a future book, only as a broken, failed no one who has self-destructed hard after this. Butters knows the truth (even if he didn't see it) and he's still well thought of by the CPD so all he has to do is (accidentally, since he's a Knight now) reveal what happened to a single cop and Rudy's immediately becomes (even more) persona non grata. Or Rudy could just self-destruct due to guilt and his brief return could be a "Redemption Equals Death" moment...
But overall, I do think this is the last we've see of him...
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No, we need to see Rudy one more time. Either as a passing glance from Harry at the dead loser in an alley or if Harry should happened to be going a hospital's Psych Ward. That is the much needed closure.
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No body, the witness was Harry. I suspect Rudy will get medical retirement, and Bradley go to SI, as tragically Rawlings has subsequently died from cliche poisoning opening up a space.
This. Zero chance of a conviction for Rudy, but enough people will believe it that he'll have to retire.
I still think there's a real chance that Rudy's suffering from the mental damage of the Eeb's mind control/domination.
What makes me worry that we haven't seen the last harmful fallout -- Sanya saying: "He is no threat to you."
That's what they thought. Harry and Murphy were sure he wasn't really a threat, just a nuisance. That's why Rudolph was still around to harass them.
One of the big themes of this book is Supers not taking Humans seriously enough. That's nice when it's decent people with shotguns taking out fomor, but not so nice when it makes a scared idiot more dangerous to Murphy than a freaking Jotun.
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I think Rudy is being set up to become part of the "inquisition". He'll eventually get his I am sure. And it will be suitably horrible.
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Ok, First, Peace talks and Battlegrounds...one helluva ride.
I just finished Battlegrounds, stayed up all night reading. Rudolph is now my most hated character. That said, I actually haven't hated any characters in the series before, as I appreciated Jim's storytelling and skill. Before, he was an enjoyable nuisance, because I felt he would eventually guide the plot in some way. Now I straight up just hate him. I had my suspicions that Murphy would not live, but to go like that, was just terrible. At least in the way we would want such a character to exit... As much as I hate it, it fits with how he has written Rudolph over the years, so I can't nitpick on basis of writing skill/experience, but dangit why did it have to be like that?!
RIP Murph, I will miss you. I had hoped for a different outcome, but I guess with a Big O'l Apocalyptic trilogy headed our way the series can't really end all sunshine and rainbows.
Murphy died due to sheer bad luck. No amount of planning and preparation could handle an accident. Human proposes and Heaven disposes.
Well, Murphy isn't exactly gone. She is an einghenjar now so she could potentially come back assuming the series is dragged out long enough or if there is a spin off in the DV universe. But for now, we have to say farewell to Karrin Murphy.
I am sad for Harry though. He is the one that suffers the most in this matter.
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It's not just "bad luck" though.
The warning signs were all there. Rudolph was increasingly unstable and violent. Earlier in the book, he pointed his gun at Harry with a shaky hand and his finger on the trigger. "The gun in his hands shook. It was a miracle it didn't go off."
Then Bradley standing to the side of the door while knocking -- he's clearly expecting that Rudolph is a loose cannon who might fire at the door if anyone knocks. Then he's deranged -- blaming Dresden's "lies" for the Jotun and fomor swarming Chicago. Bradley has to physically knock Rudolph out to safely extract the kids.
Their error is that they never, ever considered Rudolph to be a serious threat. They're in high-adrenaline fight-or-flight mode for the Jotun, then they're in joking-post-fight-cooldown mode while Rudolph is ranting and pointing a gun at them.
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Well, Murphy isn't exactly gone. She is an einghenjar now so she could potentially come back assuming the series is dragged out long enough or if there is a spin off in the DV universe. But for now, we have to say farewell to Karrin Murphy.
No, remember when Harry said that, Gard said she wouldn't return until all mortal memory of her is gone, and added that she deserves her rest. I cannot see her returning even in a spin off, because anyone associated with Harry would know and remember Murphy if only by what Harry has told them. She is also in print, so no, I doubt seriously if she returns.
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Murphy was killed by Snake Boys curse.
“Do you know why I wanted Murph to stay out of the fight?” I asked. “Because you’d given up on her,” Michael said. “No, it was because I’d given up on . . . Oh, yes.” I cleared my throat. “On some level, I had written her off. I knew I was going to be out there without her watching my back.” Die alone, whispered a voice in my memory.
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 370). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Snake Boy is looking at you next Lara, run, run! ;)
I still say he should have frozen the jerk and given him to Mab for her garden.
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No, remember when Harry said that, Gard said she wouldn't return until all mortal memory of her is gone, and added that she deserves her rest. I cannot see her returning even in a spin off, because anyone associated with Harry would know and remember Murphy if only by what Harry has told them. She is also in print, so no, I doubt seriously if she returns.
Gard is also in print under her old name. I think history books and sagas are not included, just people remembering her.
And Harry won’t stay mortal, there is too much foreshadowing for it.
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Gard is also in print under her old name. I think history books and sagas are not included, just people remembering her.
And Harry won’t stay mortal, there is too much foreshadowing for it.
But Gard is a Valkyrie, she never was mortal, not the same as Murphy at all.
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Where is that stated?
Gard solicited Murphy to join the Valkyries. This tells us they can recruit.
Gard had a nasty experience with a Grendelkin that a Valkyrie should not have been vulnerable to, implies former mortality.
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Where is that stated?
Gard solicited Murphy to join the Valkyries. This tells us they can recruit.
Gard had a nasty experience with a Grendelkin that a Valkyrie should not have been vulnerable to, implies former mortality.
No, I believe it was explained, much like the elves in LotR immortal doesn't mean you cannot be killed. The Vakyrie are the daughters of Odin.. She said her family had a history with Grendelkin, she has sisters daughters of Odin, so what happened way back when, is a history of events between them.
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No, I believe it was explained, much like the elves in LotR immortal doesn't mean you cannot be killed. The Vakyrie are the daughters of Odin.. She said her family had a history with Grendelkin, she has sisters daughters of Odin, so what happened way back when, is a history of events between them.
No, she explicitly says they are *not* daughters of Odin, but "he does like us to call him Daddy sometimes."
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No, she explicitly says they are *not* daughters of Odin, but "he does like us to call him Daddy sometimes."
No, in answer to Harry calling the Valkyrie "virgin daughters of Odin." She gives him a big kiss and a wink and then says don't believe all that you read. "Though to be honest, sometimes he doeslike us to call him Daddy."
Here is the quote from Battle Ground page366
I nodded. Then after a while, I said, "If she's an Einherjar, now. . ."
Gard shook her head. "Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those
that knew her. That is a limit not even the Allfather may cross."
So Einherjar, not Valkyrie, and it is pretty clear that we will not be seeing her anymore in this series, because Harry isn't going to forget her. I also take it to mean she cannot even be an Einherjar till all memory of her has faded. In other words they don't want her to come back and have people know who she was.
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So what happens if, as is hinted, Harry becomes an immortal? Is the "within living memory" only apply to non-immortals?
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Or he goes into stasis
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No, in answer to Harry calling the Valkyrie "virgin daughters of Odin." She gives him a big kiss and a wink and then says don't believe all that you read. "Though to be honest, sometimes he doeslike us to call him Daddy."
Here is the quote from Battle Ground page366
So Einherjar, not Valkyrie, and it is pretty clear that we will not be seeing her anymore in this series, because Harry isn't going to forget her. I also take it to mean she cannot even be an Einherjar till all memory of her has faded. In other words they don't want her to come back and have people know who she was.
That have her as an Einherjar now because she died.
But Sigrun ran being a Valkyrie by her when she noted that Murphy was even blonde, and Odin liked that.
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That have her as an Einherjar now because she died.
But Sigrun ran being a Valkyrie by her when she noted that Murphy was even blonde, and Odin liked that.
Perhaps, but unless Sigrun is lying to Harry, it is as she stated.. Einherjar... Yes, Gard did offer her a job in Aftermath, one as a security consultant for Marcone. She then says that Vadderung might be interested in her, she even has the right hair color, but no, she doesn't offer Murphy a job specifically to be a Valkyrie.
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Who is claiming Murphy isn't an Einherjar now?
The Valkyries are the security consultants. Seems like she offered Valkyrie in Aftermath. Turned it down. But when she died, she was collected for the Einherjar.
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Who is claiming Murphy isn't an Einherjar now?
The Valkyries are the security consultants. Seems like she offered Valkyrie in Aftermath. Turned it down. But when she died, she was collected for the Einherjar.
Gard said it. They don't become one until no one else remembers them. They are at rest now. Serve later
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I do think we will see Murphy again- in the BAT. If the BAT actually is the equivalent if Ragnorak, wouldn’t that mean that ALL the Einherjarin join with Odin in that final battle? Also, we may see an alternate Murphy in Mirror Mirror.
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It's not just "bad luck" though.
The warning signs were all there. Rudolph was increasingly unstable and violent. Earlier in the book, he pointed his gun at Harry with a shaky hand and his finger on the trigger. "The gun in his hands shook. It was a miracle it didn't go off."
Then Bradley standing to the side of the door while knocking -- he's clearly expecting that Rudolph is a loose cannon who might fire at the door if anyone knocks. Then he's deranged -- blaming Dresden's "lies" for the Jotun and fomor swarming Chicago. Bradley has to physically knock Rudolph out to safely extract the kids.
Their error is that they never, ever considered Rudolph to be a serious threat. They're in high-adrenaline fight-or-flight mode for the Jotun, then they're in joking-post-fight-cooldown mode while Rudolph is ranting and pointing a gun at them.
The problem is the fact that however despicable Rudolph is, he is still fellow humans and not monsters. If Rudolph is another kind of being, even if he is just another pixie, this won't hhappened at all. This kind of thing would always be an issue unless Harry decide to go full darkside. Actually everyone has this weakness. We are vulnerable to the closest thing to ourselves. Harry rated the danger level of the White court higher than the red or the blacks for exactly this reason. The white court is too similar to humanity while the rampires and blampires will be something other no matter how dangerous or powerful they are. The same reason why I believe it when Lilly the late summer lady mentioned that Mab is vulnerable to the winter knight even though Lilly is stupid and Maeve is nemfected.
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I do think we will see Murphy again- in the BAT. If the BAT actually is the equivalent if Ragnorak, wouldn’t that mean that ALL the Einherjarin join with Odin in that final battle? Also, we may see an alternate Murphy in Mirror Mirror.
Again,
Gard said it. They don't become one until no one else remembers them. They are at rest now. Serve later
It is against the rules for Odin to take them out of their vacation too early. But we may see her if he needs to break the rules in the BAT.
And I agree we will see her in MM.
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Again,
It is against the rules for Odin to take them out of their vacation too early. But we may see her if he needs to break the rules in the BAT.
And I agree we will see her in MM.
Gard doesn't say it's against the rules. She says he can't, that it's beyond his power. I don't see much point in that scene if it wasn't Jim telling us that Murphy is retired from now on.
That said, I agree that MM is going to be quite a trip, and Jim is going to be showing us a bunch of Characters that have died again, as well as a bunch of live characters being dead.
I'm predicting we'll see Rampire Susan and Dark/Evil Murphy at the least, probably dead Michael, basically everything gone to hell.
Though on the bright side Harry will probably figure out some key info that will save his own reality, because the bad guys won't be hiding any more, they'll be right out in the open.
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On the will Harry see Murphy again debate: Wizards are often considered to not be mortals, so there's a chance there. I don't think that would be within the time covered by the series. The other thing is that there's always an exception somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if the BAT is that exception where all the Einherjarin come out to die one last time. That way Jim gets to kill Murphy twice.
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On the will Harry see Murphy again debate: Wizards are often considered to not be mortals, so there's a chance there. I don't think that would be within the time covered by the series. The other thing is that there's always an exception somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if the BAT is that exception where all the Einherjarin come out to die one last time. That way Jim gets to kill Murphy twice.
But that is the nice thing about being an einherjar. After they kill her she can start partying and the next day Jim can kill her again and again.
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Murph won't be back because Mab, Harry, Molly, Lara, Thomas remember her. All long living people. And even if some of them fall soon, not all of them will. Also, Gard herself remembers her.
Of course, we could see a ghost (thanks to Morty? Liberty?) and I agree about her appearing in MM.
I actually dislike this afterlife for Murph, as she was a catholic. Her place is in Heaven, with her family.
On topic: I don't think Rudolph will go to jail. He may end in a psychiatric but I suspect he is still a threat. But I hope Kinkaid ends him with extreme prejudice.
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People are probably going to hate me for this, but I actually didn't cry at her passing. Maybe because I knew it was coming, maybe because it was foreshadowed greatly in Harry's first encounter with Rudolph in the book, or maybe because it was a bit of having her go out on top. But I will admit, Rudolph does have some comeuppance on the way. Death is to good for him.
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Perhaps Jim goes with the old "It was good that Bilbo did not kill Gollum. It was the right thing and it the end it was for good". So perhaps Rudolph would do something that will end helping Harry or, at least, Chicago.
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Perhaps Jim goes with the old "It was good that Bilbo did not kill Gollum. It was the right thing and it the end it was for good". So perhaps Rudolph would do something that will end helping Harry or, at least, Chicago.
I think Rudolph is Gollum...
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Yes, that is what I meant. That JB will took a page of Tolkien, with Harry=Bilbo, Rudolph=Gollum and in the end it will be good for everyone that Rudolph lived that one time (Gollum dies in the end)
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Yes, that is what I meant. That JB will took a page of Tolkien, with Harry=Bilbo, Rudolph=Gollum and in the end it will be good for everyone that Rudolph lived that one time (Gollum dies in the end)
That is only because Frodo, in the end was seduced by the power of the Ring. Gollum only bit off his finger to get the Ring that had seduced him many years before, and fell into the lava, while doing his happy little Gollum dance. That ended the Ring and it's power, but there was nothing redeeming about the act in of itself. Had he not been of the very edge of doom, rather than be destroyed with the Ring, Gollum would have been destroyed by Sauron, who then would have ruled everyone. Not sure just what Tolkien was saying there, but then the man had survived the horror of the trenches during WWI, maybe he was saying something one gets lucky and a great evil is destroyed though no fault of our own? :-\
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I did not say that Rudolph would be redeemed. I said that there would be good for everyone that he lived that one times. Perhaps he (Rudolph) will save Harry when he becomes too dark side.
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Murph won't be back because Mab, Harry, Molly, Lara, Thomas remember her.
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I actually dislike this afterlife for Murph, as she was a catholic. Her place is in Heaven, with her family.
Mab and Molly don't matter because they aren't mortal. That might be true for all of them. Mortal has been used to describe wizards, but wizards have also been excluded from it.
Murphy can go to Heaven when she dies for real. Her body and soul are not separate at the moment.
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It's not at all clear how the Afterlife works in the DV. It sure looks like Murphy's father isn't "in Heaven" -- he's still on the job in the space between here and there. In a sense, so is Murphy.
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It's not at all clear how the Afterlife works in the DV. It sure looks like Murphy's father isn't "in Heaven" -- he's still on the job in the space between here and there. In a sense, so is Murphy.
That is because he is a suicide, many religions believe one cannot go to Heaven. However he was a good man, so he works for Uriel in Heaven, but not. Murphy didn't suicide, lived a good life, she should go to Heaven.
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That is because he is a suicide, many religions believe one cannot go to Heaven. However he was a good man, so he works for Uriel in Heaven, but not. Murphy didn't suicide, lived a good life, she should go to Heaven.
Actually Murphy’s father still has free will. He can still change himself. He might go to heaven later. Or he might go now but does not want to yet.
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I think Rudolph is Gollum...
With a pornstar tache.
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That is because he is a suicide.
There's a WoJ that casts doubt on that. His death was an apparent suicide. What if it was a Skavis?
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There's a WoJ that casts doubt on that. His death was an apparent suicide. What if it was a Skavis?
His daughter believes it was, unless he volunteered to work for Uriel, that is why he is where he is.
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unless he volunteered to work for Uriel, that is why he is where he is.
We don't know that. Not everyone who works for Uriel committed suicide. Carmichael didn't.
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We don't know that. Not everyone who works for Uriel committed suicide. Carmichael didn't.
I believe Murphy.. If it was a staged thing, she would have figured it out.
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That's why Malvora and/or Skavis are good candidates. It can be compelled and would look the same.
Heck, he's a Murphy. Could have been a way of politely saying "no" to something that only eats living things.
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I believe Murphy.. If it was a staged thing, she would have figured it out.
She was about ten.
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I don't think we have seen the last of Rudolph, but where he goes next I am not sure. I think it's pretty significant that a knight of the cross stopped Harry from killing him, and because of that, I feel he will serve some sort of redemptive purpose at a later date.
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That was about Harry, not about Rudolph.
There are 4 Archangels, but only 3 Swords?
Longstanding WAG: Harry's the fourth Knight of the Cross, the Knight of Retribution.
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I don't think we have seen the last of Rudolph, but where he goes next I am not sure. I think it's pretty significant that a knight of the cross stopped Harry from killing him, and because of that, I feel he will serve some sort of redemptive purpose at a later date.
A Sword of the Cross stopped Harry because it isn't his place to judge. Before when they were "experimenting" with the light Sword they all remarked how it didn't burn human flesh, including Harry. When Harry wanted to be judge and jury and kill Rudolph in revenge for him killing Murphy, the Sword burned him. That got Harry's attention, it was a warning, now the Sword could have burned his hand off, but it didn't. That brought Harry back from his rage and grief, he knew it was a warning and let him go.
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I believe Murphy.. If it was a staged thing, she would have figured it out.
They are all cops who died on the job one way or the other, very Life on Mars/ Ashes to Ashes they are not capable yet of moving on.
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Re: Murphy's Dad...
Based on the Murphy family picnic (whichever book that was) Murphy never knew that her mother knew about the supernatural or that she was following in her father's footsteps at SI. If her father was killed by something supernatural, Karrin would have no idea.
Re: Catholic Heaven vs. Valhalla...
The general theology of the Dresdenverse seems to be that different religions are seeing different sides of the same mountain. I don't think we should assume that accepting a job offer from the Allfather (who has lunch every year with Uriel) means she's not crashing on her grandmother's couch in Heaven while she gets settled in.