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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on September 30, 2020, 12:47:16 AM
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First off, probably my favourite book to date. Definitely feels like it could have just been combined with Peace Talks and reads very well together (as I spent the day before re-reading Peace Talks). Some issues in the book but overall extremely pleased. There is more big reveals than any book yet, but probably more ground work and set-ups for the future than previous books. Harry is in deeper water than ever.
1. Starborn. Lots of reveals. We meet several of them - which is a big hint that lots of the major teams have one. Clearly they also have multiple uses. Some of which are so terrible that even knowing them causes issues.
a) Listen is one (and he disappears but isn't dead after all is said and done), it explains his importance to the Empress although she does seem more nonchalant than the others about Starborn. Drakul (more on him later) is also one. And we learn from Mavra that he seems to want to sacrifice Starborn to or for the "Stars and the Stones". Harry also finally pays attention and actually asks more questions about the big stuff.
b) As it seems likely there are multiple Starborn running around there are a number of possible candidates:
Elaine (almost certain now considering Justin's involvement...more so if she were Kumori), Marcone (seems like another reveal), Nicodemus (would explain a lot of his game), Rashid (for obvious reasons). Perhaps others. Part of me thinks all these beings have the potential to be something else and it's about Choice. Drakul certainly hints that the White Council intended for Harry to be a weapon for them (perhaps a sacrifice too). Interestingly, I would say that humour and insouciance are traits that all known Starborn seem to share (Drakul, Harry and Listen). Maybe that's a clue.
2. Gods. Angels. Cosmology. HOOO BOY. Jim gave away A LOT of information. So I have to break it down.
a) Angels (even the regular ones) seem to outrank most Gods now. But the implication is that may not always have been the case. However, it is also implied the cost of their might is their own Free Will. And if you read some of the interactions carefully in the series (like with the Angel of Death) they are not all entirely happy with that perhaps. I'd say another War is brewing. But that's just a theory.
b) Ethniu calls an Angel (I think implied to be Gabriel or Uriel) a traitor, lapdog, and coward. It implies an almost personal knowledge of the speaker (who was speaking through Butters). The word traitor is, to me, VERY significant. Jim recently revealed in an interview a few things about "Before" Creation. One of which was that all the Gods were there but don't all remember it quite the same as cause and effect were not yet invented (or something to that effect). My theory is that the Speaker (Uriel or whoever) wasn't always an Angel. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the Gods and Angels by and large were all the same spirits or whatever. Some even might be offshoots of larger beings. But that beings like the Speaker (Uriel or Gabriel) chose TWG. Perhaps TWG wasn't all powerful in a sea of chaos surrounded by other all powerful beings. Perhaps it didn't mean much until TWG chose to make Creation. And I would hazard a guess that beings like the Speaker (assuming they weren't created by TWG) chose to become His servants. I believe that Ethniu and her kind were allowed to be a part of Creation if they contributed to it. But along the way they believed they should rule it. And so have been eliminated or reduced or banished or imprisoned.
b) Beings. Vadderung says to Harry "that being you call Mister Sunshine". Gard says to Harry "the being who you have dealt with is...only a facet of the being whose symbol [valknut] that is. His guises are created to diminish him into something the mortal mind can accept. But though he may not have the strength he once did, that being is an elemental one". So instead of terms like "god" or "angel" or "demon" we get "being". I think this is important. I think Jim is revealing to Harry (and us readers) what he has hinted at in the past. Namely, that all these varying beings are just one way of looking at them and understanding them. The whole three blind men and an elephant analogy. We as humans see them as separate and so they come to mortals in ways they can process (perhaps informed by that belief about them) but ultimately that isn't the true being. Just the face it currently wears. I think this supports my earlier point that once upon a time all these beings were together and it's only now they are in different teams. Which leads me to my next point.
3. Vadderung. I'd say there is a reasonable hint he is or was also Zeus (his Spear unleashed was literally a lightning bolt). But the phrase Gard says also seems to hint that he might well have been much more. Perhaps many things.
4. Titanic Bronze. Whilst it was impressive at times, it literally was also belief armour. If you don't think you can be hurt then you can't. Moment that changes... Curious too that there is a substance called "Olympian Bronze" which is part of what it's made of (I think Jim may have borrowed a page from Rick Riordan). It also was infused with mordite. Interestingly, even the Swords had trouble damaging her in any serious capacity. Had Ethniu been more capable, or say someone like Marcone had her gifts, I think the fight would have gone very differently.
5. The Eye. Was mostly very impressive although hardly a nuke. More like the energy of a nuke focussed. Arguably far more dangerous but it would have been nice to see an OMG moment. Everyone likes a big boom. Also, Harry lying about who ended up with it and using it to manipulate Marcone was stupid on Harry's part. He won the round but he will pay for it. If he had been prepared to try and buy the castle off Marcone he might have dodged the eventual repercussions. But it can kill Immortals apparently. Mab was concerned it could finish her. So now we have two ways Immortals can kill: conjunctions and super-magical power. Which makes a certain amount of sense.
6. Reality breaking. Lifted pretty much from Warhammer I think. More magic equals less reality. Too much equals catastrophic reality failure. Also, Ferrovax went from closing the Earth to holding reality together from the Nevernever. It seems like Jim forgot what he was doing and put him in a new position. It still gels and was cool but the Archive ended up with the Svartalves. I suspect in an older copy Ferrovax was with them but later Jim had to change things and ended up with Ivy. But Bob mentioned that if there was too much strain Reality might collapse.
7. Speaking of inconsistencies. Mab at the end of PT says she has to go to the Outer Gates as they under intense attack. And then...she doesn't. Leah clearly holds the fort. But tbh I would have thought logical Mab would defend REALITY first and then Chicago. But that's just me.
8. Marcone. His new power-up suits him fine. I wondered if he would ever go that far. I daresay he won't stop though. And it gives him a way to take on Harry directly. I don't think Harry is going to find him as easy to threaten in future. But in taking up that power he now is working against that Celestial Power. He might find that the Knights of the Cross are a bit scary. He seems like he is going the Nicodemus route but I don't see them working together. Too much bad blood. I think he will attempt to control the Knights of the Blackened Denarius. I think Nic will devolve into a much more crazy villain.
9. Mab. Pretty damn badass. Took a direct hit off the Eye and lived (barely). Killed thousands of the enemy on her own. However, not invincible. Ethniu clearly would have killed her eventually. She was very much fighting out of her weight class. For perspective, Ethniu took on the Erlking, Vadderung and Titania (at her peak power) and trashed them. It cost her energy but she wasn't worried. So for those who thought Mab wasn't trying or Mab was mmore powerful than Ethniu etc. She wasn't. But she wasn't meant to be either. Mab's real virtue is her will. She wouldn't bow to Ethniu. She fought Hate with Logic (how she resisted the Eye). She outfoxed her enemy. Brawn was never going to win her the match. Interesting that her Unicorn (which Harry compared to a Wizard's foci) was immortal too. I didn't think there were that many running around. Makes me think that it is a part of her, like Odin's Ravens. She also said we and us a lot at the end. More evidence that the Queens are not as separate as they appear. And she resolved some differences with Titania...
10. Titania. Finally showed up for another cameo. Was still quite awesome despite getting trashed by Ethniu. Had a cryptic line about what the arrival of Ethniu meant, and that she always did her duty. Clearly an old wound. I suspect it means killing Mab when Mab goes off the deep end. But that's just a WAG. I also suspect that this whole battle was a sign of the end game coming to a close, whatever it is.
11. Drakul. Very badass, but if so slightly underwhelming. I was expecting a Ferrovax-level monster and got an uber-vampire dark wizard. I mean, he hardly seemed bothered by anything they threw at him and LtW seemed to take heart they survived at all. He also killed Chandler (it seems) almost negligently. It is possible he sent Chandler to his lair to become his servant. He was more powerful than all the LoON and I think it's a further hint he was the sire of all Vampires...in a way. He also seemed hardly concerned by the skirmish at all and his true prize was chaos and more wizards. The fact he is starborn suggests he was mortal or is mortal. Perhaps whatever the being that was trapped in his mortal shell is limited by the meat suit. Perhaps you need to be a starborn to be possessed by such beings. I don't seem him sacrificing himself on the Stars and Stones (whatever they are). Clearly his heir (Dracula) was a disappointment. But he also possessed a sense of humour calling the White Council (or Senior Council) "their immaculate beardlinesses". He possesses Namshiel's trick of instant teleport. Which along with several other hints suggests an infernal connection. He might not be Lucifer but I am sure there is a connection. And I don't doubt he is Cowl's boss. He also has all the standard Black Council powers yet perhaps not the weaknesses. He wasn't a corpse either. Beyond that, he also has the Word of Kemmler (surely passed on by Mavra). And what seems to remain of the old Elders of the Black Court seemed to be there (although hardly the Mab destroying group they once were).
11Librarians. The Men in Black. Lara classes them as extremely dangerous and even Vadderung seems concerned. Which, to me, is very disappointing. I really hope Jim doesn't pull out a bunch of uber-powerful Watchers or Men of Letters or Masons etc. Knowledge is power, sure. But I very much dislike the fantasy trope where a secret society with a library seem to have every book every, especially on the threat they need to face. "Here is our book on Wizard hunting, on God binding etc". They always seem to have the exact tome they need. Which as any historian will tell you (or even your own common sense) is very unlikely. It's hard enough searching through the mountains of information we already have to find anything worthwhile. But beyond that, things get destroyed over time. It's that simple. Knowledge of the ancient world is scarce. Record keeping wasn't all that thorough, was full of bias by those who recorded things (often from people who recorded history via stories that were already embellished and passed down through oral tradition) and often anything to heretical got destroyed, not to mention all the changes in rulership and various disasters that occurred. It's a wonder we have anything. And I really hope they don't have all this special anti-magic tech. It just gets more and more ridiculous from there. I for one will be very disappointed if they go around wiping the floor with everyone.
12 Also, was disappointed the masquerade didn't fully drop. Seems like Jim couldn't pick how much he wanted it to drop so tried to do it without doing it. He wants Harry to have some of his old life (house, pets, city, job etc) but also continue the whole 'world has changed' thing. If 60,000 people died in a terror event in the US (and consider only 3000 died initially in 9/11 and only a few buildings were destroyed), the ENTIRE COUNTRY would go berserk. It would not be business as usual. It would be martial law. The US quite probably would declare war on SOMEBODY. People would want answers. Not to mention, how will they keep it quiet? Thousands would have witnessed the supernatural. I suspect word-of-mouth would be more convincing than any footage (especially these days). If Jim wanted BAU, I think a hurricane or some other natural disaster would have been the way to go. Just my thoughts. I kinda just wanted Jim to rip of the band-aid and have a brave new world. Probably more x-men than Harry Potter I would think but still.
13 Seems like the Placard was a lot of build-up for very little bang. Even the Athame/Spear of Destiny (that's canon now) wasn't all that impressive. I suspect Harry hasn't yet realised how to use them but still. Was a bit...underwhelming.
14Deaths and Injuries. Murphy, well the writing was on the wall. A hero's death. But it was tragic. And Jim found a convenient way for Harry not to be able to see her again (at least in this life). Not only that, but he found an interesting job for her (lots of foreshadowing). Although, Murphy was Catholic. Maybe she wants to go to the other heaven? I wonder how that all works. I do hope she got to have a chat to her father at least. Thought Eb was done for, seems like he survived. I guess Jim didn't want to give Harry to many weapons yet. I guess he is saving up the Blackstaff. Hendricks, that was an odd one. But I guess Marcone really doesn't need him now. Rudy should of died but I guess he is just a pain forever. For some reason, Jim really hates that character. He has zero redeeming qualities. But, he is fun to hate. Sanya, Eb, LtW, and Butters all took big hits. I don't think they will be as strong in future.
15 Monsters. Was very cool and was good to see that the theory confirmed that the Fomor turn humans into monsters. But was odd to only see a few variants. The Hunters, Octokongs, the Fomor Sorcerers, the Servitors (turtlenecks) and the Jotuns. Would have been good to see some more creatures. And strangely, Ethniu and Balor etc are gods but Corb isn't. Not sure how that works. Fire Jotuns were very cool though. And even a Thor reference! Got to see a lot of nasty Fae too. Corb wasn't very threatening in the end which was a shame, Jim made him out to be reasonably bad but then we saw nothing. But I don't think we have seen the last of him either.
16 Cristos...doesn't seem Black Council. Maybe stupid. Maybe a puppet. But doesn't act like an open servant. Also, didn't seem to use the right magic to be Cowl. So one less candidate I think.
17 He Who Walks Beside. Nemesis' confirmed identity. Curiously, why don't the others have nicknames? Why does this Outsider just possess people and not look like the other two? Also, it seemed like Nemesis doesn't infect multiple beings at once. In fact, it seems like it infects just the one being at a time. Which would explain a few things. And now Justine is the host (a nice confirmation that she was off for some time). Although you can bet the baby is bad news and not just a baby White Court Vampire. It seems Lara either a) knew and was working with Justine, or b) didn't know but had her own plans around Justine. Feels like Grey wouldn't have intervened if there was no threat. I suppose it's possible that c) Lara knew but didn't want to tell anyone about Justine and was attempting to deal with it her own way. Also, very clear there are Outsiders in Demonreach considering this is the second time (just like Cold Days) it has used a big distraction just to get on the island. But it was scared of Alfred, so that's something. It also revealed a little about the Outsider's end game (which many have guessed at) - Empty Night. The dissolution of all Creation into silence and nothingness. And Nemesis seemed to think that it's closer than ever despite Harry's victory. Also, so much more pain for Thomas. Guy can't catch a break.
18 Molly. Mab thinks she should be killed in the event of Mab's death (so that's happening in the books at some point). Whether Dresden will go through with it is another matter. But I took Mab's implication that Molly wouldn't do what is needed (i.e. too emotional) to save Reality.
19 Mab is making Harry marry Lara. What Lara gets out of it is unclear other than an alliance (and not a long term one). Jim has been foreshadowing Lara and Harry's eventual boinking since Lara was first introduced. I think it's all part of making Harry darker, just like Harry's mother. We all have wondered how Margaret Le Fay could take up with Lord Raith. But I think we start to see how such things can come about. Was cruel to do it right after Murphy's death. But I think Harry has further darkside to go yet. I mean, Fidelacchius did hurt him. All that stuff about absolute good or evil. Seems to me Harry is going very dark side, if the Sword is any barometer.
20 I also think we have had some confirmation about Lord Raith's protection. Eb describes mordite as being "the most evil stuff from the Outside" (which is curious, considering it's all bad out there...right?) But in that he is also talking about how once it is alloyed into Titanic Bronze it consumes energy instead of life. Seems exactly like Lord Raith's protection. Which isn't to say he was wearing Titanic Bronze of course. More like, beings of the same origin as mordite could provide such protection. Why Eb didn't think of this when he attempted to kill Raith is curious (mostly as Jim likely hadn't invented it yet) but still.
21 Infernal or Celestial power. Clearly, when it comes to Outsiders or other such big things these are the forces that count. Interesting that Nicodemus and his Knights could potentially have injured the Titan just as the Swords might. Seems like it wasn't like anyone could do much but resist her. Vadderung also seemed extremely wary of using Angels even as part of a defence trap.
22 A lot of references to parallel timelines and alternate futures. The fight between the immortals seems to involve guessing or perhaps even willing certain realities to make themselves present. It wasn't really a fight of energy but of Will. Ethniu forced through the reality where she won that fight. Mab talks of the cost of creating new branches of the universe. Harry seems to see multiple realities around him.
23 Harry is so going to disappear on his wedding day to Lara. Mark my words. Mirror Mirror.
24 Harry is going to fight the White Council soon. Maybe not next book. Maybe not even until the BAT. But that show down is coming.
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And sorry for the alarmingly long post, I had no idea until I submitted it! Got a bit carried away...
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And sorry for the alarmingly long post, I had no idea until I submitted it! Got a bit carried away...
You should have cut it in two and posted the second half 10 weeks later
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You should have cut it in two and posted the second half 10 weeks later
That's actually hilarious. I'll fix it up so it's easier to read anyhow.
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Just to note, as soon as I saw the Huntsmen explained, I thought "Chronicles of Prydain!"
Personally, I thought that this book plus Peace Talks together equalled about 1.5 books. It also seems to me that Jim was trying to answer a bunch of questions, leave a bunch of threads for future works, show off new characters as well as cameo some older ones (what happens to Andi/Marci?), and also slip in a few "Take That!"s to some of us readers- in short, I think he was trying too much. Still, a fascinating read, and a nice tie-in to the X-mas short story from so long ago.
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Four werewolves survived. They escorted Harry after the battle.
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b) As it seems likely there are multiple Starborn running around there are a number of possible candidates:
Elaine (almost certain now considering Justin's involvement...more so if she were Kumori), Marcone (seems like another reveal), Nicodemus (would explain a lot of his game), Rashid (for obvious reasons). Perhaps others. Part of me thinks all these beings have the potential to be something else and it's about Choice. Drakul certainly hints that the White Council intended for Harry to be a weapon for them (perhaps a sacrifice too). Interestingly, I would say that humour and insouciance are traits that all known Starborn seem to share (Drakul, Harry and Listen). Maybe that's a clue.
Marcone was 40ish in Storm Front, he doesn't fit.
5. The Eye. Was mostly very impressive although hardly a nuke. More like the energy of a nuke focussed. Arguably far more dangerous but it would have been nice to see an OMG moment. Everyone likes a big boom. Also, Harry lying about who ended up with it and using it to manipulate Marcone was stupid on Harry's part. He won the round but he will pay for it. If he had been prepared to try and buy the castle off Marcone he might have dodged the eventual repercussions. But it can kill Immortals apparently. Mab was concerned it could finish her. So now we have two ways Immortals can kill: conjunctions and super-magical power. Which makes a certain amount of sense.
On the other hand, leaving the castle with Marcone means he's gotta work his way in through the uber wards after Marcone has worked them out in their eventual confrontation.
I also think we have had some confirmation about Lord Raith's protection. Eb describes mordite as being "the most evil stuff from the Outside" (which is curious, considering it's all bad out there...right?) But in that he is also talking about how once it is alloyed into Titanic Bronze it consumes energy instead of life. Seems exactly like Lord Raith's protection. Which isn't to say he was wearing Titanic Bronze of course. More like, beings of the same origin as mordite could provide such protection. Why Eb didn't think of this when he attempted to kill Raith is curious (mostly as Jim likely hadn't invented it yet) but still.
Don't think to hard about those attempts, judging by the Blood Rites defences Eb could have walked through them in his sleep.
But I think Harry has further darkside to go yet. I mean, Fidelacchius did hurt him. All that stuff about absolute good or evil. Seems to me Harry is going very dark side, if the Sword is any barometer.
That was when he was completely into going for revenge, it was just uncomfortably warm for him earlier.
But it was scared of Alfred, so that's something. It also revealed a little about the Outsider's end game (which many have guessed at) - Empty Night. The dissolution of all Creation into silence and nothingness. And Nemesis seemed to think that it's closer than ever despite Harry's victory. Also, so much more pain for Thomas. Guy can't catch a break.
Nemesis, like everybody else, expects a massive war of humans vs everybody else to begin soonish.
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Marcone was 40ish in Storm Front, he doesn't fit.
Don't hold on too heavily to that idea. Unless you assume all Starborn are born within the same hour or so. Elaine could be starborn. Listen actually IS starborn and I don't think anyone thinks he is exactly the same age as Harry, to the same few hours. Or do we think Drakul also happens to share bdays with Harry? No, I think it's more complicated than that. Eb left out crucial details. Not the least of which he never said which conjunction, just that it happens every 666 years. Maybe that's just one type of starborn. Maybe you can be born under other conjunctions.
On the other hand, leaving the castle with Marcone means he's gotta work his way in through the uber wards after Marcone has worked them out in their eventual confrontation.
True, but I think Harry has underestimated Marcone. Not to mention that Marcone and Namshiel may well have left traps or backdoors into the castle. Stuff Harry might never find.
Don't think to hard about those attempts, judging by the Blood Rites defences Eb could have walked through them in his sleep.
Not sure what you mean here...unless you're saying Eb only half-heartedly attempted to avenge his daughter. He said he tried three times and no magic hit him. My guess is that while Eb could have ripped up the White Court establishment outside Chicago, taking out the White Court is a whole other problem. One that might not be suited to brawn. I mean, they're still kicking around and growing in power despite everything else. Also, where do all these Raith sisters keep coming from? They seem to get killed fairly often.
That was when he was completely into going for revenge, it was just uncomfortably warm for him earlier.
Uncomfortably warm? You're thinking PT. In Battle Ground he actually sticks his arm into it to try and counter Butters and gets a massive burn.
Nemesis, like everybody else, expects a massive war of humans vs everybody else to begin soonish.
Perhaps, but it's curious what specifically made it so certain. My guess is that it has some form of prescience that allows it to see which moves bring it closer to it's goal. I mean, Ethniu lost. It didn't get to the Island. They didn't breach the Gates (as far as we know). Yet it still thinks it is closer than ever. You could be right, the eventual war between Man and the Supernatural might make things easier. But it sounded more specific than that, at least to me.
Just to note, as soon as I saw the Huntsmen explained, I thought "Chronicles of Prydain!"
Personally, I thought that this book plus Peace Talks together equalled about 1.5 books. It also seems to me that Jim was trying to answer a bunch of questions, leave a bunch of threads for future works, show off new characters as well as cameo some older ones (what happens to Andi/Marci?), and also slip in a few "Take That!"s to some of us readers- in short, I think he was trying too much. Still, a fascinating read, and a nice tie-in to the X-mas short story from so long ago.
Yes, there were a nice few Welsh references and Prydain references. Good to know what happened to Arawn Death-Lord too, clears a few theories. He did more I believe because it became split. I think originally it was actually going to be smaller (combined). The Eb vs Harry fight wasn't meant to happen until later in the series, for example. Overall though, I am pleased with the amount of content.
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Don't hold on too heavily to that idea. Unless you assume all Starborn are born within the same hour or so. Elaine could be starborn. Listen actually IS starborn and I don't think anyone thinks he is exactly the same age as Harry, to the same few hours. Or do we think Drakul also happens to share bdays with Harry? No, I think it's more complicated than that. Eb left out crucial details. Not the least of which he never said which conjunction, just that it happens every 666 years. Maybe that's just one type of starborn. Maybe you can be born under other conjunctions.
True, but I think Harry has underestimated Marcone. Not to mention that Marcone and Namshiel may well have left traps or backdoors into the castle. Stuff Harry might never find.
Not sure what you mean here...unless you're saying Eb only half-heartedly attempted to avenge his daughter. He said he tried three times and no magic hit him. My guess is that while Eb could have ripped up the White Court establishment outside Chicago, taking out the White Court is a whole other problem. One that might not be suited to brawn. I mean, they're still kicking around and growing in power despite everything else. Also, where do all these Raith sisters keep coming from? They seem to get killed fairly often.
That was when he was completely into going for revenge, it was just uncomfortably warm for him earlier.
Uncomfortably warm? You're thinking PT. In Battle Ground he actually sticks his arm into it to try and counter Butters and gets a massive burn.
The guiding angel in the sword decides how much damage it does based on the targets spiritual state. That can change depending on the situation.
The burn was just a warning. In the end Harry had to make his choice himself.
Perhaps, but it's curious what specifically made it so certain. My guess is that it has some form of prescience that allows it to see which moves bring it closer to it's goal. I mean, Ethniu lost. It didn't get to the Island. They didn't breach the Gates (as far as we know). Yet it still thinks it is closer than ever. You could be right, the eventual war between Man and the Supernatural might make things easier. But it sounded more specific than that, at least to me.
In lovecraftian stories beings can return “when the stars are right”. The outsiders are preparing for that moment as is Mab. Nemesis doesn’t mind sacrificing pawns as long as she can get new ones if it weakens winter at that exact moment.
Yes, there were a nice few Welsh references and Prydain references. Good to know what happened to Arawn Death-Lord too, clears a few theories. He did more I believe because it became split. I think originally it was actually going to be smaller (combined). The Eb vs Harry fight wasn't meant to happen until later in the series, for example. Overall though, I am pleased with the amount of content.
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Don't hold on too heavily to that idea. Unless you assume all Starborn are born within the same hour or so. Elaine could be starborn. Listen actually IS starborn and I don't think anyone thinks he is exactly the same age as Harry, to the same few hours. Or do we think Drakul also happens to share bdays with Harry? No, I think it's more complicated than that. Eb left out crucial details. Not the least of which he never said which conjunction, just that it happens every 666 years. Maybe that's just one type of starborn. Maybe you can be born under other conjunctions.
If there's a time based opening I'm pretty sure it'll be one that's a lot shorter than a decade and a half otherwise there's tens of millions of them.
Not sure what you mean here...unless you're saying Eb only half-heartedly attempted to avenge his daughter. He said he tried three times and no magic hit him. My guess is that while Eb could have ripped up the White Court establishment outside Chicago, taking out the White Court is a whole other problem. One that might not be suited to brawn. I mean, they're still kicking around and growing in power despite everything else. Also, where do all these Raith sisters keep coming from? They seem to get killed fairly often.
My point was that Eb specialises in the kind of magic that Blood Rites showed gets around the defence without a problem, just don't think too hard about the backstory one liner lest you start poking holes in it.
That was when he was completely into going for revenge, it was just uncomfortably warm for him earlier.
Uncomfortably warm? You're thinking PT. In Battle Ground he actually sticks his arm into it to try and counter Butters and gets a massive burn.
That's what I meant, Harry in general is safe from the sword most days. Harry in that specific moment in BG was pretty close to going full darkside and so got burnt.
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If there's a time based opening I'm pretty sure it'll be one that's a lot shorter than a decade and a half otherwise there's tens of millions of them.My point was that Eb specialises in the kind of magic that Blood Rites showed gets around the defence without a problem, just don't think too hard about the backstory one liner lest you start poking holes in it.That's what I meant, Harry in general is safe from the sword most days. Harry in that specific moment in BG was pretty close to going full darkside and so got burnt.
Just like Susan can not touch the sword in one book and can become a knight in another. Harry even explained it in changes when he gives the sword to her.
The angel in the sword makes its own decisions based on its purpose. It did not want to kill Harry, it wanted to save Harry with butters help and a burn did the job.
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I don't think the Sword *burned* Harry at all.
Harry wasn't just set on revenge, in his hate and despair he'd turned over control entirely to the Winter Mantle. The Sword just burned out the Mantle for a moment, leaving Harry to feel all the pain he'd accumulated in the battle -- including a left arm that was charred to the elbow from overuse of the shield bracelet.
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I don't think the Sword *burned* Harry at all.
Harry wasn't just set on revenge, in his hate and despair he'd turned over control entirely to the Winter Mantle. The Sword just burned out the Mantle for a moment, leaving Harry to feel all the pain he'd accumulated in the battle -- including a left arm that was charred to the elbow from overuse of the shield bracelet.
Or a new wrinkle in how the Sword behaves. It got broken when misused by Murphy, it simply wouldn't let itself be misused by Harry in his anger and grief. Remember back in Grave Peril when Harry, out of fear tried to kill Lea with Michael's Sword, it fell out of his hand rather than let him misuse it. Think both Swords were also protecting Harry from a grave sin, murder, that he was about to commit.
What is interesting is the excuse the White Council used to kick Harry out. That supposedly he used magic to kill a couple of Fomor/humans, most likely Turtlenecks. But Rudolph is a vanilla human, as upset as Harry was, trying to kill him with a Holy Sword, he didn't try to kill him with magic.
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Would someone be able to explain to me this new winter Knight ability Harry has, "the banner" , mab said few winter knights had the power to manifest it, is it the ability to enlist and order fae from winter to fight for Harry? Can this ability be used all the time?
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The Sword definitely burned Harry. It also temporarily disable the WK mantle so he get all of his aches and pains. It was a warning- if he was truly evil the Sword would have cut him.
When the mantle kicks back in Harry’s aches and pains subside. Except the pain of the burn the Sword inflicted. Mab noticed the Sword burn and was jealous- mourning her lost humanity, I think.
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But Rudolph is a vanilla human, as upset as Harry was, trying to kill him with a Holy Sword, he didn't try to kill him with magic.
Wait, what?
Harry didn't try to pick up the sword -- he tried to reach past it, thinking it couldn't cut him so he could just ignore it. The bad things happened when he hit the sword's blade with his forearm.
And Harry definitely tried to kill Rudolph with magic -- first by crushing him with his shield, then by firing lightning at him.
The Sword definitely burned Harry. It also temporarily disable the WK mantle so he get all of his aches and pains. It was a warning- if he was truly evil the Sword would have cut him.
Huh. You might be right. I'd read that as him suddenly realizing how badly burned his arm was, from overusing the shield bracelet earlier in the battle. But it does read like there's a new wound in addition.
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Or a new wrinkle in how the Sword behaves. It got broken when misused by Murphy, it simply wouldn't let itself be misused by Harry in his anger and grief. Remember back in Grave Peril when Harry, out of fear tried to kill Lea with Michael's Sword, it fell out of his hand rather than let him misuse it. Think both Swords were also protecting Harry from a grave sin, murder, that he was about to commit.
What is interesting is the excuse the White Council used to kick Harry out. That supposedly he used magic to kill a couple of Fomor/humans, most likely Turtlenecks. But Rudolph is a vanilla human, as upset as Harry was, trying to kill him with a Holy Sword, he didn't try to kill him with magic.
The white councils definition of human is flexible apparently and it also inconsistent because if Harry really had broken the law they should put him on the death list of dangerous sorcerers and start actively hunting him, and not push him out unless they do not consider him human anymore.
En will explode when he hears about him and Lara ;D
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And Harry definitely tried to kill Rudolph with magic -- first by crushing him with his shield, then by firing lightning at him.
Yet, he managed to run away didn't he? If Harry meant to kill him with magic, he would have been dead.
The white councils definition of human is flexible apparently and it also inconsistent because if Harry really had broken the law they should put him on the death list of dangerous sorcerers and start actively hunting him, and not push him out unless they do not consider him human anymore.
Yeah, it sounds a lot more like the Doom part 2. Only under the original Doom, Harry could still be a member of the White Council. If Harry was indeed guilty of breaking the First Law, then instead of handing him his walking papers and telling him to be a good boy and not to act like a wizard anymore, Carlos should have brought a crew to take him down and behead him.. Is Harry seen in the same league as Kemmler now?
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Yet, he managed to run away didn't he? If Harry meant to kill him with magic, he would have been dead.
Um. What?
It sounds like you're saying that you don't think Harry wanted to kill Rudy, or that he didn't try to use magic to do it. Twice.
Do you mean that at some deeper level, there was a part of Harry that was fighting it? (I think that's probably true.)
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Um. What?
It sounds like you're saying that you don't think Harry wanted to kill Rudy, or that he didn't try to use magic to do it. Twice.
Do you mean that at some deeper level, there was a part of Harry that was fighting it? (I think that's probably true.)
He did want to kill Rudolph but did he want to kill him with magic? Or was the magic only meant to soften him up and scare him?
Maybe he wanted him to suffer first.from magic.
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It sure sounded like he was going to crush him to death with his shield, when he was telling Sanya to just wait a second and it would be over. And when he hurled lightning at Rudolph, there wasn't any "I'll just hurt him a bit first" thought process.
Maybe he would have stopped and finished him off by hand, but there's nothing in the text actually saying that.
And killing with magic in anger is Harry's big Laws-of-Magic weak point, thanks to his history with Justin.
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Um. What?
It sounds like you're saying that you don't think Harry wanted to kill Rudy, or that he didn't try to use magic to do it. Twice.
Do you mean that at some deeper level, there was a part of Harry that was fighting it? (I think that's probably true.)
Yes, no doubt Harry wanted Rudy dead, he was angry, full of hate, and full of grief, emotional to the extreme. However if he really wanted to use his magic power to kill Rudy, he could have vaporized him end of story. However he also had two Holy Knights trying to cool him down and prevent him from doing something that he would regret later, yeah even killing Rudy would have it's price. Not unlike the time in The Warrior when Harry prevented Michael from beating Father Douglas to death, when he lost it over him kidnapping his daughter.
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Yet, he managed to run away didn't he? If Harry meant to kill him with magic, he would have been dead.
Yeah, it sounds a lot more like the Doom part 2. Only under the original Doom, Harry could still be a member of the White Council. If Harry was indeed guilty of breaking the First Law, then instead of handing him his walking papers and telling him to be a good boy and not to act like a wizard anymore, Carlos should have brought a crew to take him down and behead him.. Is Harry seen in the same league as Kemmler now?
Yeah, tbh I'm kinda confused as to the Council's logic here:
"Our raison d'ętre is to control and limit Wizard's powers. Harry keeps getting more power, and that concerns us. So obviously we need to boot him out from under our Authority, thus removing what nominal control we have over him"
Like, what???
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Yeah, tbh I'm kinda confused as to the Council's logic here:
"Our raison d'ętre is to control and limit Wizard's powers. Harry keeps getting more power, and that concerns us. So obviously we need to boot him out from under our Authority, thus removing what nominal control we have over him"
Like, what???
Exactly, or is it more of a Mission Impossible thing? In other words they want Harry to continue what he is doing, they just don't want the fall out from it. Kicking him out of the Council gives them plausible deniability.
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Really it was just an excuse to kick him out and try to leash him. Note that when the vote took place, EB and LtW were both "in surgery"/in the hospital. Without them there, a bully-vote could be pushed through.
You would THINK he WC would REALLY want him on their side - he has a jail for nasties the WC can't destroy. He was the one ultimately responsible for taking down a Titan, he's a Starborn, etc.
You can't serve 2 Masters is the old adage and lets face it, he is the Winter Knight as well and so it brings into question his overall allegence to the WC. Winter can FORCE him to do things.
And since he was always on the fringes of the WC and not generally accepted/liked, they thought casting him out into the cold would solve their problem for them. It's not like Winter will unilaterally protect him (though I think Mab extends her influence where Harry is concerned more than he knows). What they don't realize is that it's only going to make it possible for him to gather even more power.
He's going to challenge the WC at some point. That's been slowly building up for a long, long time - with their antiquated ways and elitest attitudes...time for WC 2.0.
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We have two good thematic answers for why the Council would kick him out
1) He's Kemmler 2.0
2) Where is the Eye of Balor?
For item 1:
1) He's allied with most of the nastier fae and has contacts among the vampire courts
2) He's on record as having used necromancy
3) He's formed his own magical society for the talented- Paranet may not be pronounced like Thule, but who is paying close attention
4) Jim's recent "Kemmler was once Warden" bombshell
For item 2:
1) If Harry took down Ethniu, Harry recovered the Eye.
2) Where is the Eye?
For plot theme 1, it's basically a panic response.
For plot theme 2, it's throwing Harry to the wolves, and the price of re-admission to the Council can be the Eye. Or isolating him, waiting for him to fall, and assuming they'll be able to find a lockbox or something.
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The white councils definition of human is flexible apparently and it also inconsistent because if Harry really had broken the law they should put him on the death list of dangerous sorcerers and start actively hunting him, and not push him out unless they do not consider him human anymore.
En will explode when he hears about him and Lara ;D
It's definitely inconsistent, but it's politics.
In BG Harry was acting as Winter Knight, trying to execute him for actions taken as Winter Knight (as opposed to for personal reasons) could start a conflict between the Council and Winter.
Otherwise 'warped' humans don't seem to qualify for the purposes of the First Law - Denarians for example; Harry killed them with magic in SmF when Luccio was around.
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3. Vadderung. I'd say there is a reasonable hint he is or was also Zeus (his Spear unleashed was literally a lightning bolt). But the phrase Gard says also seems to hint that he might well have been much more. Perhaps many things.
Well he has a lot of identities... we know Kringle and Beowulf at least.
But historically Odin was identified with Mercury, Thor with Jupiter (Zeus).
The fact he is starborn suggests he was mortal or is mortal.
This seems to have very interesting implications, yeah. Per WOJ Drakul is something entirely inhuman trapped in human form. Since Starborn seems to imply being born, maybe his human form was an actual human being rather than an 'assumed' form (like Uriel's temporary human form in SG).
Maybe a starborn wizard way-back-when messed up a summoning and ended up being completely possessed?
Knowledge is power, sure. But I very much dislike the fantasy trope where a secret society with a library seem to have every book every, especially on the threat they need to face.
Well, as for lost knowledge... it seems from "Backup" that those beings that are genuinely forgotten can't act in the mortal world anymore. So beings only mentioned in completely lost books probably aren't relevant.
I agree they'd be unlikely to know the exact powers and weaknesses of really obscure beings.
12 Also, was disappointed the masquerade didn't fully drop.
Think it's a time scale issue. It hasn't fully happened at the end of BG, but the process has been set in motion. But the lack of any electronic documentation is going to be a real issue in terms of the public believing this - at first. Especially with the whole 'hallucinogenic gas' bit.
It's still going to happen, but it won't be immediate. There will be lots of different stories flying around for quite a while - confused eyewitness accounts, the official story, the Paranet version pieced together from eyewitness accounts and some background supernatural knowledge, and lots of mundane conspiracy theories (aliens, secret government experiments, etc.)
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Mab is making Harry marry Lara. What Lara gets out of it is unclear other than an alliance (and not a long term one). Jim has been foreshadowing Lara and Harry's eventual boinking since Lara was first introduced.
Mab can make Harry marry Lara, but nobody can force them to "boink." Harry has True Love protection from Karrin (as confirmed in Peace Talks) and even with her dead(ish) I don't see that fading in a year's time, especially as Harry knows she's still around as a Valkyrie. I don't have the book nearby, but I seem to recall his protection from Susan lasted a long time after their breakup. So unless something happens in the next year, the marriage would have to be political only. Lara can't touch Harry without burning herself.
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She's not a Valkyrie, she's an Einherjar. That's explicit from Gard.
Protection from Susan literally lasted years.
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Mab can make Harry marry Lara, but nobody can force them to "boink." Harry has True Love protection from Karrin (as confirmed in Peace Talks) and even with her dead(ish) I don't see that fading in a year's time, especially as Harry knows she's still around as a Valkyrie. I don't have the book nearby, but I seem to recall his protection from Susan lasted a long time after their breakup. So unless something happens in the next year, the marriage would have to be political only. Lara can't touch Harry without burning herself.
Interesting thought: does that protection still apply since Karrin is now dead? His protection from Susan lasted years ... but she was still alive...
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Interesting thought: does that protection still apply since Karrin is now dead? His protection from Susan lasted years ... but she was still alive...
We don't know for sure. The way Thomas explains the effect in BR kind of implies it should, though - it is said to be bits of True Love-infused spirit that "stick to" the person. Any bits of Karrin's spirit stuck to Harry's should still be there.
So unless something happens in the next year, the marriage would have to be political only. Lara can't touch Harry without burning herself.
Marrying Lara might break it in itself - I'd imagine the vows have supernatural weight.
I am actually surprised that Harry getting married is even a possibility, as the Winter Knight is said to be "consort to the Queens of Winter". They might need to do something special with the vows -- I doubt Harry can swear to "forsake all others".
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Just as surprising, Mab can't marry.
Lady can't boink, Queen can't marry. Mother can't have kids?
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Just as surprising, Mab can't marry.
Lady can't boink, Queen can't marry. Mother can't have kids?
Mab had two daughters, twins I believe, at some point with a mortal. Maeve and Sarissa.
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Just as surprising, Mab can't marry.
She said it had to do with something that happened when she was mortal... I took that as meaning that it was because of some oath she had taken, not a condition of the Queen mantle.
And this too is a bit odd with the "consort of the Queens of Winter" bit. I took the Stone Table scene in Changes to be essentially a ritual consummation of Harry's "marriage" to Mab.
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Which has no connection to what I said? She can't marry. The Lady can't indulge in carnal urges.
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We don't know for sure. The way Thomas explains the effect in BR kind of implies it should, though - it is said to be bits of True Love-infused spirit that "stick to" the person. Any bits of Karrin's spirit stuck to Harry's should still be there.
Yup, if Harry isn't with any other woman or anyone that would qualify as a lover, it still sticks. I believe that Lara found that out in White Night, it had been four or five years since Susan, and kissing Harry still burned her lips.
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Yup, if Harry isn't with any other woman or anyone that would qualify as a lover, it still sticks. I believe that Lara found that out in White Night, it had been four or five years since Susan, and kissing Harry still burned her lips.
Right. But Susan was still alive at that point. I'm sort of presuming that Harry is protected by Karrin, but its a potential loophole ...
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We don't know for sure. The way Thomas explains the effect in BR kind of implies it should, though - it is said to be bits of True Love-infused spirit that "stick to" the person. Any bits of Karrin's spirit stuck to Harry's should still be there.
Marrying Lara might break it in itself - I'd imagine the vows have supernatural weight.
I am actually surprised that Harry getting married is even a possibility, as the Winter Knight is said to be "consort to the Queens of Winter". They might need to do something special with the vows -- I doubt Harry can swear to "forsake all others".
You assume a monogamous marriage but the Sidhe are old, old style and pre christian. They might not have that clause.
Lara certainly doesn't want it.
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Lara certainly doesn't want it.
I'm not sure if that's entirely correct. Mab told her that Lara had the Queen's permission to court her Knight and Molly was P.O.ed at Lara throughout PT & BG, so it seems to me that she is quite aware of what is required to tie the White Court to Winter. And she's never hidden the fact that she does find Harry not entirely hideous...
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Looking at it again, I'm even less sure that Mab is actually saying she can't marry (in general), as opposed to can't marry Lara.
As with most Fae things, precise wording is likely important.
You assume a monogamous marriage but the Sidhe are old, old style and pre christian. They might not have that clause.
Lara certainly doesn't want it.
Oh absolutely there would be no expectation of fidelity for either Winter or White Court. It's more a matter of, I thought Harry's oath to Mab was "absolute" enough that it might be incompatible with later marriage vows unless they were written specifically to deal with that.
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I'm not sure if that's entirely correct. Mab told her that Lara had the Queen's permission to court her Knight and Molly was P.O.ed at Lara throughout PT & BG, so it seems to me that she is quite aware of what is required to tie the White Court to Winter. And she's never hidden the fact that she does find Harry not entirely hideous...
Oh she wants Harry,
But not in a monogamous marriage forced by a ceremony. She wants to feed and if Harry does not boink someone she can not even touch him.
So the monogamous clause must go.
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Looking at it again, I'm even less sure that Mab is actually saying she can't marry (in general), as opposed to can't marry Lara.
As with most Fae things, precise wording is likely important.
Oh absolutely there would be no expectation of fidelity for either Winter or White Court. It's more a matter of, I thought Harry's oath to Mab was "absolute" enough that it might be incompatible with later marriage vows unless they were written specifically to deal with that.
Oh I am sure that Harry is still married to Mab in some way but I do not think that this will in any way stop another marriage.
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I don't care if Harry marries Lara. There are plenty of loveless marriages. A child on the other hand would create a vampire. And there is no way that Harry could be sure he could be there when the time came.
Note to Jim, think of peasants torches and pitchforks. >:(
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I don't care if Harry marries Lara. There are plenty of loveless marriages. A child on the other hand would create a vampire.
Inari Raith asks if she doesn't count. :P
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The question is moot if you never have the child in the first place.
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Inari Raith asks if she doesn't count. :P
Those are very specific circumstances. You can not reliable recreate them.
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Yeesh we have fallen down a rabbit hole.
1. I think Mab was specifically saying she can't marry Lara because...they're both women. I know, I know - very controversial. But I do think she was actually saying that. Not that I think either of them are worried about a gay relationship tbh. But the whole thing about the Ladies MUST be vigins. The Queen perhaps has a limit around marriage, perhaps altogether, but perhaps because it must be a King. The fact that she used the word "compatibility" lead me to think this. It didn't sound like she couldn't get married altogether, just not to Lara. And I think that's to do with Lara being a women. Perhaps a Vampire too. I may well be wrong of course, but I think that's what she was getting at.
2. I can totally see Harry having a WCV for a son. Especially if Thomas dies. A sort of opportunity to do it better. Harry does seem to follow his mother's footsteps.
Exactly, or is it more of a Mission Impossible thing? In other words they want Harry to continue what he is doing, they just don't want the fall out from it. Kicking him out of the Council gives them plausible deniability.
Very interesting idea. And totally the kind of screwy thinking some of them have. Especially considering Jim said recently they really needed the power of Demonreach.
Well he has a lot of identities... we know Kringle and Beowulf at least.
But historically Odin was identified with Mercury, Thor with Jupiter (Zeus).
Indeed. I think I might be wrong about the Zeus thing. Jim talked a bit about Zeus in a recent interview and it seems like he views him as a very different being to Vadderung. I did know about the Mercury/Hermes connection and often wondered if Vadderung was also once Thoth (who is also equated with Mercury and Hermes). It's not unreasonable to expect more than one God to use a lightning bolt type weapon.
This seems to have very interesting implications, yeah. Per WOJ Drakul is something entirely inhuman trapped in human form. Since Starborn seems to imply being born, maybe his human form was an actual human being rather than an 'assumed' form (like Uriel's temporary human form in SG).
Maybe a starborn wizard way-back-when messed up a summoning and ended up being completely possessed?
Indeed. Hard to reconcile the thing. Also seems to fit the old idea that Drakul is a scion more. Yeah, perhaps Drakul is what Starborn can become if things go really south. The "Destroyer" thing that Morgan mentioned comes to mind.
Well, as for lost knowledge... it seems from "Backup" that those beings that are genuinely forgotten can't act in the mortal world anymore. So beings only mentioned in completely lost books probably aren't relevant.
I agree they'd be unlikely to know the exact powers and weaknesses of really obscure beings.
It's just a pet peeve of mine. I just think it's poor writing giving humans all these macguffins when we know how hard life is. We can barely keep the planet going most of the time. It's just absurd when people come of with the exact right piece of knowledge in a week. Who knows, maybe Jim will get the balance right. If they are about the Watchers level in Buffy that's about alright.
Think it's a time scale issue. It hasn't fully happened at the end of BG, but the process has been set in motion. But the lack of any electronic documentation is going to be a real issue in terms of the public believing this - at first. Especially with the whole 'hallucinogenic gas' bit.
It's still going to happen, but it won't be immediate. There will be lots of different stories flying around for quite a while - confused eyewitness accounts, the official story, the Paranet version pieced together from eyewitness accounts and some background supernatural knowledge, and lots of mundane conspiracy theories (aliens, secret government experiments, etc.)
And Mab even spoke to all of Chicago right at the start of BG with her magic voice. Who on Earth would forget that? I get that it can't all happen at once. But you barely need to look at history to see how the world reacts to violent events, especially those in the US, to see how crazy things would become. I hope Jim doesn't take too long with it.
My feeling is Jim is trying to write himself out of a corner. On the one hand, he wants Maggie to have this normal life and Dresden to go back to the good old days of being a private detective and Wizard outcast and they can just be comfy in the Castle. However, the world he has created has escalated well beyond all that. Harry doesn't have a normal life. He can't. If you look at people who live similarly chaotic and important/centre-of-everything lives they don't have time to be a normal person. Harry isn't a normal person. I think it would be far more interesting for, and more believable, if Harry sent Maggie off to boarding school or whatever. Frees Harry up to do his saving the world thing. Maggie then has time to grow into a resentful child that Harry has to deal with, and try and make it up to. I like that Dresden WANTS to be a good parent etc. But it's just not very realistic, and it means Jim has to contort the story in more and more ridiculous ways just to make it work. If you stripped it down to Harry working as an FBI or CIA etc agent after 9/11 and working directly on the case, do you really think he would be home in time for dinner? No, of course not.
The guiding angel in the sword decides how much damage it does based on the targets spiritual state. That can change depending on the situation.
The burn was just a warning. In the end Harry had to make his choice himself. In lovecraftian stories beings can return “when the stars are right”. The outsiders are preparing for that moment as is Mab. Nemesis doesn’t mind sacrificing pawns as long as she can get new ones if it weakens winter at that exact moment.
Sure, the good or evil part can change. That's the benefit of Free Will. But Harry is going darkside, and has been a long time. Look at how all his friends are reacting to him. Look at how the semi-bad guys and really bad guys are. We are all most blind to ourselves and Harry has blindspots a mile wide.
I agree that's what the Outsiders are up to. Nemesis seems to consider itself a He, as in He Who Walks Beside. Wouldn't get hung up though on the gender of a being from beyond reality. ;)
If there's a time based opening I'm pretty sure it'll be one that's a lot shorter than a decade and a half otherwise there's tens of millions of them.
I know, it's a pretty big hole. But clearly there is more too it otherwise they all share the same birthday. And don't forget, Justin thought Elaine was one too it seems. So clearly it's not as crystal clear as we are being lead to believe. Trust me, Jim's building up a big sucker punch. In one of his most recent Q&As he said the whole starborn thing has been going on for longer than even most supernatural folks can remember. He seemed to imply (in my eyes) that it may well predate mankind and have started since Lucifer Fell. I mean, the 666 years isn't just a random number.
My point was that Eb specialises in the kind of magic that Blood Rites showed gets around the defence without a problem, just don't think too hard about the backstory one liner lest you start poking holes in it.
What magic does Eb specialise in that allows him to kill targets immune to magic? I mean, even his biggest hits on Ethniu did nada. And unless you think he somehow was allied with Lord Raith and meant his daughter to die, I don't see at all why Eb wouldn't try and kill Raith for the murder of his child. Look how upset he got when he saw Harry's daughter was out in the open.
That's what I meant, Harry in general is safe from the sword most days. Harry in that specific moment in BG was pretty close to going full darkside and so got burnt.
I agree that Harry's darkside-o-meter went up at that point which likely contributed to the burn. The fun of Free Will I imagine. But, Harry is going darker. There is no doubt about that.
I don't think the Sword *burned* Harry at all.
Harry wasn't just set on revenge, in his hate and despair he'd turned over control entirely to the Winter Mantle. The Sword just burned out the Mantle for a moment, leaving Harry to feel all the pain he'd accumulated in the battle -- including a left arm that was charred to the elbow from overuse of the shield bracelet.
Read the section again. It clearly burns him. Even his mantle does nothing for the pain. It didn't burn out the mantle, it's just the mantle does nothing for certain types of pain. Loss. Guilt. Loneliness. I think the physical burn is just an indicator of how bad his spirit was getting. It wasn't from the shield bracelet, which was just his wrist. He even talks about how the burn goes down his forearm.
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Nemesis, like everybody else, expects a massive war of humans vs everybody else to begin soonish.
I think Harry's going to turn this on it's head.
If there's a time based opening I'm pretty sure it'll be one that's a lot shorter than a decade and a half otherwise there's tens of millions of them.
It could be something where everything is in alignment over the course of a decade but only for a short time each year or something. I doubt it, but maybe.
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What magic does Eb specialise in that allows him to kill targets immune to magic? I mean, even his biggest hits on Ethniu did nada. And unless you think he somehow was allied with Lord Raith and meant his daughter to die, I don't see at all why Eb wouldn't try and kill Raith for the murder of his child. Look how upset he got when he saw Harry's daughter was out in the open.
Flinging rocks at people, if flinging keys works just fine to get around the defence then rocks work even better. I was saying don't think about it too hard because in the end it's one line of backstory that hasn't aged well.
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Flinging rocks at people, if flinging keys works just fine to get around the defence then rocks work even better. I was saying don't think about it too hard because in the end it's one line of backstory that hasn't aged well.
Ebenezer probably tried some complex magical trick and did not think it through. He also did not know about his daughters curse so he assumed papa raith could recover from any normal damage and just fill his tank again.
With the knowledge of the curse he could just go for the Kincaid approach as many times as needed but that simply did not occur to him and he did not have that knowledge. And he was also molded by white council training as papa Raith remarked.
He is also an older generation. We never see Ebenezer use a gun.
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Just to note, as soon as I saw the Huntsmen explained, I thought "Chronicles of Prydain!"
I had the same thought.
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Flinging rocks at people, if flinging keys works just fine to get around the defence then rocks work even better. I was saying don't think about it too hard because in the end it's one line of backstory that hasn't aged well.
I understand what's gone wrong here. You and I are talking about different things. Lord Raith was never immune to physical damage, and therefore even if an object was manipulated with magic, it is still an object of the physical world and therefore will affect him just like any other physical assault.
Eb may have not realised this. Lord Raith's defences are against purely magical, spiritual assaults. So attacking him in such a way was never going to work. Eb even discusses the issues with using intentional forces versus natural operation of the univers, in Peace Talks (when discussing why regular physical fire is better against Outsiders than magically created/controlled fire). If Eb had considered that an Outsider was protecting Raith he might have realised this and dropped a satellite on him.
But to be very clear, using already established physical objects IS NOT a way around his magical defences. Harry never hit Raith with magic. He his him with a physical object. He exploited Raith's physical weakness.
Arjan is essentially correct in that it probably never occurred to Ebenezar and he simply assumed it was a matter of the right magical assault, rather than considering Raith's physical weakness' (of which publicly were still assumed to be few).
Eb doesn't specialise in magic that get's around targets immune to magic. As far as I can see, no one does. No one succeeded in getting around Raith's or Ethniu's ability to resist/ignore magical assault. Every attack on them that was successful was physical in nature. Natural operation vs Intention. Exploitation of the weaknesses of a being isn't the same as beating the beating their magical defence. Harry probably couldn't get through Mab's magical defences, in pure magical assaults. But he could always put a bullet in her brain. And Cold Iron can't be resisted by the Fae. Physical vs Spiritual.
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Ok, fair warning. I have not read the thread yet. I want to share my feelings and after that I will be reading a lot of threads. I've seen some titles and a few first posts in every thread and I know that some of my issues with the book are addressed in those threads, so I won't be too long here, I will just try to summarize my feelings and a few points I consider important.
First. I liked the book. Definitely better than PT, and, considering the two books as one, still one falling around the middle in my preference list. Now, speaking about BG specifically:
Things I loved: many quotes, Harry's will and wish to help humans and really caring for everyone. And as always, Mouse, Michael, Butters and Sanya. Bob, I really want Bob to be back with Harry. Also, Toot, Lacuna and all the little ones. Harry's conversations with Gard.
Things I liked. All the action was interesting and fun to read. And I think it was specially good balance, with all people who should be doing important in it, doing it. Mab. Lara. The fact that Ebenezar survived. Same about the Alphas and the Knights. Harry won a reputation all by her own.
Goodman Grey, I always like to see him. And I am pleased Harry was not a complete moron and realized what was happening with Justine before arriving to Demonreach.
Things which I hate: That there is no resolution of the Thomas problem, and by that I mean, there are not epilogue about his official status. Is he still a fugitive? Will it matter the fact that he was under cohesion? What was the official reaction to the fact that he was not in his cell? And of course, why is he still on the pokeball? I understood that he needed to feed. Can he feed of a fae? Or a Black court slave? Some wounded person who was going to die anyway?
What I don't like: The book is juggling too many things and it is all over the place. Let me see
.Of course, the main thing with the Titan
.The Thomas issue
. Harry status with the WCouncil and Harry personal drama with Carlos and Eb.
- Drakul
- the Stars and Stones meaning and all that what will happen in a year with LTW talking with someone
. The reality risking to break...a plot that means nothing, as it is never mentioned again.
- Of course, the pairing, but that is just in the last episode
It is just too much. Also, things I did not like
That Murphy killed the Jotun so easily. I am pretty sure that Marcone and his people could have shared some bazookas with every "squadron" to kill all them if just a shot was enough. I've felt it was done so she needed to be a hero and then die a stupid death, but I think it could have been done with a lesser monster, so it is more believable. I do think her death was good, and she deserves a good rest but I definitely don't like that he was taken by Odin. She was a Christian, her place was in Heaven. And she should have the chance to meet her dad. Also, Many long lived people (including Mab) would remember her, so she won't be back in like ever.
That there is not one giving Harry something to heal, like a potion- I don't want to discuss how probable is that, it is just is difficult to believe that Harry human body, even with the mantle, could survive that much punishment.
That if he was so important for everyone (specially Lara), he was alone so many times.
That Justine has been infected so much. What about True Love? I don't get it. If she has been infected after Thomas and her were able to touch again, I would understand it.
And now, the things I want to comment:
1) Where is Mister at the end, and in Christmas Story. I am worried!
2) About Christmas Story, it was changed. JB basically lie to us in order to preserve the surprise, I guess. The Wizard of Chicago says now, instead of "a wizard of the WC". Also, he mislead us a little about how many goodbyes. There are only 4 or 5 people and only one with real significance for us, but I understand that they are important for Harry...and I am so happy people survived that I have no problems with some misleading. I just want to comment it, not criticize it.
3) what happened with the Spear????? It has not been mentioned in the ending, and Harry took off his coat in the boat so, perhaps Justine took it? For a moment I thought he had been mind altered to forget about the Spear, but I guess Alfred would have asked for it
4) What happened with the placard? And Mac and his place. It was not revisited in the aftermath
5) Why Ivy does not react to Harry's presence? Why he did not even wave or smile to her? Why he did not wonder about Kinkaid? (We know, but I don't think Harry does)
6) Where is Kinkaid, I want him back, specially with Drakul around
7) Did I misread or Listen is a starborn too? Why nobody seem to care about that.
8) The ending in general is too rushed but I think we needed a line or two about Harry telling the Knights about Marcone the Denarian (or at least I hope he told them)
9) What with Mab ordering him to kill Molly? I think that breaks her word but I've seen a thread about this so I will post more there
10) About what LTW told him, if he was being bred for something, and he is supposed to do something, why the WC allowed him to be in so much danger so many times? Shouldn't them protect him? (the way Winter did, at least)
11) Where is Chandler? I don't think he is dead
12) The marriage is not so bad idea. He is still protected by Murphy's love, so she won't feed on him. The White Council already fired him so it does not matter if they see him literally laying with monsters. And being with the White Court will act as a deterrent to his enemies and protect Maggie. Between the two WC and his own reputation, I don't see many foes daring to go for Maggie.
Sorry it was so long, now to read!
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Sorry about the double post, but I wanted to comment a few things of the OP
a) Listen is one (and he disappears but isn't dead after all is said and done), it explains his importance to the Empress although she does seem more nonchalant than the others about Starborn. Drakul (more on him later) is also one. And we learn from Mavra that he seems to want to sacrifice Starborn to or for the "Stars and the Stones". Harry also finally pays attention and actually asks more questions about the big stuff.
This reminded me of something, the strange thing about how to kill King Cob. "when the deepest ocean meets the sun". I have not idea what this means but I was thinking, perhaps thanks to the so far criminally underused Maggie Le Fay stone, Harry could find a way and open a portal between the deepest ocean and a sunny place. Or, of course, they can put him in the middle of a crash between two boats called "the deepest ocean" and "the sun".
b) As it seems likely there are multiple Starborn running around there are a number of possible candidates:
Elaine (almost certain now considering Justin's involvement...more so if she were Kumori), Marcone (seems like another reveal), Nicodemus (would explain a lot of his game), Rashid (for obvious reasons). Perhaps others.
Marcone is too old
5. The Eye. Was mostly very impressive although hardly a nuke. More like the energy of a nuke focussed. Arguably far more dangerous but it would have been nice to see an OMG moment. Everyone likes a big boom. Also, Harry lying about who ended up with it and using it to manipulate Marcone was stupid on Harry's part. He won the round but he will pay for it. If he had been prepared to try and buy the castle off Marcone he might have dodged the eventual repercussions. But it can kill Immortals apparently. Mab was concerned it could finish her. So now we have two ways Immortals can kill: conjunctions and super-magical power. Which makes a certain amount of sense.
I agree about that being stupid. After Marcone let him go with the Eye things had been more or less civil between them. I think Harry could have negotiated in private or something liek that. There had to be another way that was not so bad for Marcone ego and won't make him so angry. I prefer when they don't truly hate each other.
On a side note, in the conversation when they were changing clothes, Harry told him that he would stop him one day and Marcone smiled. I am thinking that in a deep level, Marcone feels that if he became fully Denarian, fully monster, is good to have someone with Harry to stop him. Just as Harry feels good that Butters is near him to stab him if he became full monster.
6. Reality breaking. Lifted pretty much from Warhammer I think. More magic equals less reality. Too much equals catastrophic reality failure. Also, Ferrovax went from closing the Earth to holding reality together from the Nevernever. It seems like Jim forgot what he was doing and put him in a new position. It still gels and was cool but the Archive ended up with the Svartalves. I suspect in an older copy Ferrovax was with them but later Jim had to change things and ended up with Ivy. But Bob mentioned that if there was too much strain Reality might collapse.
I thought this was taken from the "World of Darkness". Too much magic produces a lot of paradox, reality can't handle it. Also, I did not like all the part about breaking reality, it seem like a "OH NO, WE ARE DOOMED!!!" moment that then...it's forgotten. And yes, only explains why Ferrovax is not in the fight (I suspect he is too powerful)
11. Drakul.
11Librarians.
13 Seems like the Placard was a lot of build-up for very little bang
I wonder if the classic "you kill the original vampire, all die" is true in the Butcherverse. If Harry kills Drakul he will destroy a second vampire race.
I did not like the Librarians introduction at all. Specially because we don't need more factions.
Agree about the placard, specially because it is not mentioned in the aftermath
Lastly, about Mab wanting to kill Molly and Justine I will post in specific threads that other people created.
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I would add to that list two more things.
1] Is Bob back with Harry now? I know Butters handed him off during the battle, but if he scanned the castle as well that would imply that he is.
2] Why is it that Murphy had a hold of a rocket launcher and Marcone's men didn't?
I agree about that being stupid. After Marcone let him go with the Eye things had been more or less civil between them. I think Harry could have negotiated in private or something liek that. There had to be another way that was not so bad for Marcone ego and won't make him so angry. I prefer when they don't truly hate each other.
Actually it was smart, it was all about sending a public warning to Marcone. Marcone always was dangerous, but now with a coin and wizard powers you can multiply that many,many times. Dominance is the only thing gentleman Marcone understands. By not revealing that he has the Eye, when everyone else is pretty sure he does, keeps them guessing and also gives Harry some ability to protect Chicago. It was really the only peaceful way he could contain Marcone/Namshiel.
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4) What happened with the placard? And Mac and his place. It was not revisited in the aftermath
My guess about that is it is still at Mac's. I think when he accepted it and put his blood on it, his place just got upgraded from Neutral Grounds to some sort of super protected place. I would like more explanation on what that is or how it works but what I gathered is if you are in that place you are protected until or unless Mac himself dies. That's why Mac really didn't want it. I don't imagine this was a temporary thing, and pushed him from neutral observer to someone important.
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Mira, about 1, perhaps. About 2, exactly!
And you may be right about Marcone, I am not very good in politics :P
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I would add to that list two more things.
1] Is Bob back with Harry now? I know Butters handed him off during the battle, but if he scanned the castle as well that would imply that he is.
Impossible to say but I think Bob is borrowed.
2] Why is it that Murphy had a hold of a rocket launcher and Marcone's men didn't?
The same way she gets all those other illigal weapons. She probably has the number of Kincaids arms dealer. We know Harry has.
Actually it was smart, it was all about sending a public warning to Marcone. Marcone always was dangerous, but now with a coin and wizard powers you can multiply that many,many times. Dominance is the only thing gentleman Marcone understands. By not revealing that he has the Eye, when everyone else is pretty sure he does, keeps them guessing and also gives Harry some ability to protect Chicago. It was really the only peaceful way he could contain Marcone/Namshiel.
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I put alot of stock in the repeating history theory in the DF, so much so as to predict events from it... It's actually nice to see it working in reverse too. Odin had a map just as detailed as Harry's LC (though I didn't take if as a working) and Mab totally pulled a Molly when she took on the fomor... A love when the parallels align so.
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1. Mister is at home in the Castle, probably laying on the water heater, catching a nap.
2. I think the ending was changed, that in the original story he was still a member of the White Council.
4. The wake is at Mac's at the end. And I would guess that the Placard is hung next to the Accorded Neutral Ground Sign. Mac may need a bigger wall.
7. Everybody and their brother is a Starborn, but yes you read right.
9. This is somewhat alluded to in Cold Days when Mother Summer asks Harry to think about Maeve becoming Queen. One danger would be that posed by Galadriel in LOTR.‘And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!’
@Yuillegan
The thing about throwing rocks is the problem of gunfights. While you are shooting at them, they are shooting at you.
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I did not like the Librarians introduction at all. Specially because we don't need more factions.
I actually think they were long overdue. Looking at it, the notion that the American federal government - or heck, any national government - just sitting back and not getting involved with the supernatural in any capacity is hard to swallow. They sit back and allow the White Council to dictate terms which, admittedly, has several centuries of capabilities on them, but still. There is no way, IMO, that individual national governments would not try and get involved in some way (whether that means fighting the supernatural, recruiting it, trying to suborn it, or even join it…) So there long needed to be some sort of organization in place that keeps trying to get Accorded Nation status but keeps falling short for some reason...
(In a Dresden Files RPG that I was running, I was about to introduce an overwatch organization called AEGIS (intentionally making a joke about SHIELD there) which was run by an Athena Grey who would naturally turn out to be the Athena down the road... so I am a little biased toward them showing up, though. :P)
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I actually agree with you about it making sense, Rigil, but I think is too late to introduce them now, when things are so complicated. From a storytelling point of view, I think it only makes things messier.
I liked that about your RPG. Any relationship with Goodman? And yes, the Athena would be fitting.
1. Mister is at home in the Castle, probably laying on the water heater, catching a nap.
2. I think the ending was changed, that in the original story he was still a member of the White Council.
4. The wake is at Mac's at the end. And I would guess that the Placard is hung next to the Accorded Neutral Ground Sign. Mac may need a bigger wall.
1- It makes sense for Christmas, but when Harry goes to the Carpenters after the fight he mentions Mouse and Maggie but not Mister when speaking about his little family. It made me sad.
2- Perhaps
4- It's at Mac's? I totally missed it. They mentioned how Mac himself was doing? I think he (and Harry) saved a lot of people that night. I also think he will miss Murphy.
5
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Well Hope had him in Peace Talks so he was off pouting some at the Carpenters I guess.