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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Hogeyhead on April 21, 2016, 09:50:34 PM
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What do you need to have in a character (powers) and what kind of template do you need to have in order to death curse? Also assuming you are an NPC do you get all the consequences you have or all those you should have if you were a PC (like most npc's don't have an extreme).
Like right now my group is fighting black court master after black court master, and when the death curse is 25 shifts baseline it's a pain to compensate for. Our GM rules that anything that has non-sponsored magic (like evocation) regardless of their template can death curse. I don't think I can change his mind regardless of what is official (unless it is clearly like really clearly stated in the 16th book) but I would still like to know what is official.
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I don't know for sure...but I thought it was only a full Wizard who had the ability. And this was because of their wizardly training with the White Council.
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I don't think there's a specific rule for this in the game. This probably comes down to interpretation.
To me, a death curse requires 3 things:
1) Training
Without the knowledge to access your own life force, you can't throw it around. This probably requires a certain power level as well, as you won't be trained below that. But power isn't really a requirement.
2) Free Will
You need to be able to willingly give up your life. Monsters don't do that. Mortals do.
3) Life Force
If you are undead, you don't really have a lot of life force to fuel your spell. It might be able to run on necromantic energy, but that's a whole other issue.
That being said, 25 shift death curses are boring. Just having all your NPCs explode in a death curse to deal stress is going to get boring after a while, because all it really does is fill stress boxes and/or consequences. Death curses should have a real impact, not just be a big weapon.
And none of those kill curses we hear about in the novels other than "they happened". But we get a whole book about the death curse Harry's mom threw at the white king. We get constant flashbacks to "DIE ALONE!". Those are the ones that are really going to be interesting for a game, as well.
To me, death curses are a plot device, not a game mechanic. They do something big and powerful, that wouldn't be possible by any other mechanic in the game. It doesn't even have to do anything specific. "DIE ALONE!" could well be the GM putting down an idea to run with later, and what exactly that means will be decided 5 case files later. Until then, it looms as an aspect on the characters sheet like the sword of damocles, bringing doom at the most inopportune moment.
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Well so far we dealt with 2 and had comprable rituals cast to counter, both had some bleed through. The first, well only hit an area with 2 potency remaining, so the curse was "be mildly irritated". It's hilarious. Totally worth everything just for that. The second hit a moderate concequence, when the target was almost full already. Very close to an extreme.
I just feel like certain things like death curse and hexing should have been -0 powers (or variable I guess...) with musts attached to them, then it would be clearer who can do these things, and who must do them, etc.
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At least according to the books, any magic practitioner has a Death Curse, but not all of them are equal. The size of your death curse is somehow related to the size/strength of your magic. Harry's is big because he's a full member of the White Council and packs a massive punch too. A focused practitioner wouldn't have the same sized death curse. I'm unsure if the RaW support this, but your GM can.
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You should stop narrating your take outs as death. Full body paralysis, coma etc would prevent death curses wouldn't it?
Or does the wizard effectively have to commit suicide? (Which would be an action, I guess)
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You should stop narrating your take outs as death. Full body paralysis, coma etc would prevent death curses wouldn't it?
Or does the wizard effectively have to commit suicide? (Which would be an action, I guess)
I'm of the opinion a Death Curse should be a Concession. And as such, they're open to group debate as to how they go down--whatever happens, they should complicate one or more PC's lives, not just end them--that's boring.
There's the "DIE ALONE" and Daddy Raith examples we've seen, the long-term issues. I've had a PC lose an eye once, and another time one lost the use of arm.
Short term options might be that--instead of simply exploding and killing the PCs outright--the Death Curse leads to the building the PCs are in (or whatever) starts falling down around their ears. Or maybe the Death Curse opens a Way and alerts whatever Nasty Thing lives on the other side on the NeverNever--so much for the fight being over. Etc.
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Yeah, um I'm not really asking how death curses should go down. The reason I mentioned that it was a 25 shift effect baseline was to emphasize how hard it is to counterspell. I need to walk around with a ritual in hand just to deal with it (or avoid being death cursed assassin style I guess). I'm not the GM so I have no say in how these go down, that being said, one was used for an 'effect' one for damage. So it's not like they are all fireballs. Also like I said these aren't Wizards we are killing they are black court masters. Since the rules (the books neither) don't say that any spellcaster can't death curse (regardless of mortality) my GM has ruled that most can, with an exception I mentioned earlier.
Mostly I wanted to know was what is your take on non-mortal death curses? I kind of feel that if red court vampire spellcasters could death curse the war would have gone differently, that said wardens are notoriously good at dealing with death curses, so I dunno.
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It's mentioned specifically by McCoy that Mavra may have a death curse to use, so I'd consider any practitioner capable of using one with the right training.
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I'm not the GM so I have no say in how these go down
I would like to question this. You certainly have a say in this. If it's something you don't like (which seems to be the case), you can always bring it up and start a discussion about how you want to deal with this in the future. Having every opponent be a potential death curse that kills me if I don't have a ritual prepared to take care of it feels incredibly broken in the first place.
And as others have said, a death curse on top of a taken out result shouldn't work. You're out of the conflict, you can't do anything anymore. A concession would work, sacrifice yourself for the greater good, but as part of a taken out it feels like cheating. How did they go down in your game?
Mostly I wanted to know was what is your take on non-mortal death curses? I kind of feel that if red court vampire spellcasters could death curse the war would have gone differently, that said wardens are notoriously good at dealing with death curses, so I dunno.
For one, they don't have too many of them. Some, yes, but not too many of them. Reds are dangerous enough as they are.
And taking for granted that they are skilled enough, they would still need to have the presence of mind to actually throw it. That's not really on a predator's mind. Especially on an immortal predator's, as they are so set in their ways and convinced they will go on forever. Death and thus a death curse isn't something they are going to be thinking about.
And remember how Harry was preparing himself for his death curse? It takes at least some time to gather yourself and cast it. In the heat of a battle, that might not work too well. Humans have the opportunity of a more flexible mind. We can, if need be, spin on a dime and choose death over our survival instincts. It's one of the big themes of the Dresden Files, really, choice vs. instinct/nature.
How exactly you implement that is up to you and your group, of course.
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My two cents on how skilled you need to be....based on the way they're described in the book and who is described as being potentially capable of one, it seems like Death Curses are specialized Thaumaturgical rituals where burning your life force up in an instant gives you enough raw juice to get around the need for a circle or preparation or other issues that make Thaum "slow."
It appears the White Council is specifically considered to be a group where everyone can do a Death Curse, and it's iffy outside of that; my assumption therefore is you need a comparable level of training with Thaumaturgy as a member of the White Council, aka, you need to have the Thaumaturgy power to pull off a Death Curse. Depending on the thematic/categorical choice of a Ritual power, I might extend it to that too. I could see someone with Ritual: Entropy being able to pull off an Entropic Death Curse, etc.
It still takes some time--you still need to be able to focus that energy into a specific effect, and that's assuming you've already thought of something useful to do with it. You may not have time or have the presence of mind to pull it off.
And taking for granted that they are skilled enough, they would still need to have the presence of mind to actually throw it. That's not really on a predator's mind. Especially on an immortal predator's, as they are so set in their ways and convinced they will go on forever. Death and thus a death curse isn't something they are going to be thinking about.
This is true. Grevane was insane and didn't truly believe he could die--I imagine that's an invoke of some Assessed aspect of Grevane's--and that's why he didn't throw one.
And remember how Harry was preparing himself for his death curse? It takes at least some time to gather yourself and cast it.
This is why I say Death Curses are Concessions and not possible once you're Taken Out (though I have had players *ask* to receive Death Curses when they took out a warlock, so in those cases I gave them a FP for it). The Corpsetaker didn't get a Death Curse because she had zero time to react to Harry calling her name--because he got a Take Out. (Actually, you could argue she still Conceded but did something other than a Death Curse, but it's equally possible that the GM may have simply compelled some aspect later to modify the long-term effect of the method of his takeout.)
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I do not think a wizard would do a death curse and and try return from the dead afterwards the way Kemmler did a few times and the Corpstaker tried to do.
A dead curse is probably using the energy the dead wizard needs for his shade to start the whole thing.
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I do not think a wizard would do a death curse and and try return from the dead afterwards the way Kemmler did a few times and the Corpstaker tried to do.
It's not actually clear if this would be possible or not. Let's see....
Bob seemed to indicate that one's "soul" or "spirit" is separate from their source of magic. It's what makes Harry's access to Soulfire so unique--he can access his spirit as a secondary source of energy. Perhaps when a wizard uses a Death Curse they tap into this "soul" energy, and this is what allows the wizard to perform an evothaum-style effect without prep. In which case, no shade left after death.
If that isn't the case, though, then the wizard's spirit/soul would be left untouched by the use of the Death Curse (besides potential additional 'stains' due to last-second Lawbreaking), and presumably would do whatever it would normally do. It might result in a ghost, it might not. Most of the time, there probably wouldn't be a ghost--I'd think a wizard who's last thoughts are aligned to cast one last "I'm about to die" spell wouldn't leave a shade. On the other hand, most of the time a wizard needs a Death Curse, they're going through something violent and dramatic...ripe for ghost-making. So it seems like a crapshoot.
I think Kemmer and Corpsetaker's whole life-after-death trick is accomplished through a combination of prep via necromancy/ectomancy principles, and pure insane/stubborn belief that one as powerful as they simply should not die.
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It's mentioned specifically by McCoy that Mavra may have a death curse to use, so I'd consider any practitioner capable of using one with the right training.
+1 ...
But we DON'T hear of this as a worry about other Blamps, even strong ones (offhand, I don't think we EVER meet another really-powerful Blampire, but Harry clearly knew a great deal ABOUT the BC). It stood out as something extra to worry about, with Mavra. Thus I presume it's a practitioner-thing, not a Blampire thing. Or maybe it's just a terribly-minor and inconsequential thing from most BC's, but far-more-potent because of Mavra's training?
IIRC we in fact ONLY hear about these in conjunction with practitioners of fairly-high strength; do we EVER hear (in the novels) about "random supernatural baddie" (that is NOT a practitioner of some stripe) that DOES have a Death Curse?
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+1 ...
But we DON'T hear of this as a worry about other Blamps, even strong ones (offhand, I don't think we EVER meet another really-powerful Blampire, but Harry clearly knew a great deal ABOUT the BC). It stood out as something extra to worry about, with Mavra. Thus I presume it's a practitioner-thing, not a Blampire thing. Or maybe it's just a terribly-minor and inconsequential thing from most BC's, but far-more-potent because of Mavra's training?
IIRC we in fact ONLY hear about these in conjunction with practitioners of fairly-high strength; do we EVER hear (in the novels) about "random supernatural baddie" (that is NOT a practitioner of some stripe) that DOES have a Death Curse?
Mavra is explicitly stated to be a sorcerer, possibly on the same level of power as a White Council Wizard, so while I wouldn't say it's unreasonable for most practitioners to have the ability (training required), it's only once it gets to WCW levels that the death curse is something to worry about.
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Mavra is explicitly stated to be a sorcerer, possibly on the same level of power as a White Council Wizard, so while I wouldn't say it's unreasonable for most practitioners to have the ability (training required), it's only once it gets to WCW levels that the death curse is something to worry about.
Right; but (per the OP, whose GM is giving all BC master-vamp's a "Death Curse") I was addressing the question of whether the books seem to indicate Mavra had the power via her Powerful-Practitioner abilities, or her Master-Blamp abilities.
From the way *I* read/interpret the books, I conclude it's a Practitioner-thing, not a Blampire-thing.
I have yet to see anything put forward that I find indicates it's a Blampire Thang...
Others' MMV... and evidently, do (as per the OP's GM).
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Want to get technical?
YS282 describes it as "the Wizard's Death Curse." So you have to be a wizard. Does that mean you have to be on the White Council? I'd rule probably not. But I'd say that to have an effective death curse, you have to have full Evocation and full Thaumaturgy, and maybe the Sight too (which fills the template). BCV Masters do not get a death curse unless they're also spellcasters of this calibre.
You do get a Death Curse if you're taken out though. It's part of owning your death scene. YS203 Sidebar.
I'd say that an effective compel on aspects that would indicate that the dying NPC would not expect to die, would not have time to gather their thoughts, etc. would be enough to mitigate/eliminate a death curse. Finally, I'd say death curses can only effect the characters that killed (specifically dealt a consequence to, or took out) the character, based on how they're portrayed in the books.
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I agree with practically everything but the last sentence. Partly based on Harry preparing to unleash his death curse on Grevane when about to be killed by Morgan, and partly how he talks about the death curse at other times, you can direct it however you want; it's just that "the bastard that's killing me!" tends to be the primary thing on a dying wizard's mind.
(Also, tiny thing: you get a death curse if Taken Out and the victor chooses Death as the result! Taken Out =/= Death.)
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I agree with practically everything but the last sentence. Partly based on Harry preparing to unleash his death curse on Grevane when about to be killed by Morgan, and partly how he talks about the death curse at other times, you can direct it however you want; it's just that "the bastard that's killing me!" tends to be the primary thing on a dying wizard's mind.
(Also, tiny thing: you get a death curse if Taken Out and the victor chooses Death as the result! Taken Out =/= Death.)
Or maybe you die anyway if you use your death curse.
It is basically a spell that uses all your live energy cast by a wizard just before he is going to die using up all his live energy. If you do it to early and your enemy does not kill you you still die. That is why you should cast your death curse not too late but also not too early.
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Given how they have been described in the books, I would say that any practitioner could *in theory* cast a death curse, however, *in practice* it likely doesn't make much sense to focus on anything but a wizard or above's death curse.
A death curse is a lasting magical effect that either has to be sustained by the sheer amount of power thrown at that last instant of death, or has to be tied to something else to keep the curse powered. Remember the curse has to last over the person day in and day out past all of these sun rises and the water that flows over them and whatnot. I imagine besides going ka-blewy, the only effective way to cast a death curse is to tie the spell to something else to keep it renewed. (Like Maragret's death curse was tied to her children.) Anyone who isn't a wizard likely doesn't have enough power or training to realistically create a death curse worth mentioning. They might have enough power to throw out a spell of vast proportions for them, but given what a wizard likely slings about, it's not something comparable or noticeable.
Also something to keep in mind is free will. I would argue that only a practitioner who has free will can cast a death curse. We get into a grey area with vampires as they seem to be creatures with far more free will than other monsters, but less than humans. Vampires aside though, most monsters shouldn't get a death curse. Faeries, old gods, dragons and the like are all bound by rules and limitation that might not be readily apparent, but forbid them from taking actions of true free will and thus cannot act outside of those restrictions. further, it is entirely possible that most of the power they wield are mantles of one form or another and the power of a mantle can't simply be used up and discarded, it must be passed to another individual (as logic would dictate by the very nature of a mantle of power).
Or maybe you die anyway if you use your death curse.
It is basically a spell that uses all your live energy cast by a wizard just before he is going to die using up all his live energy. If you do it to early and your enemy does not kill you you still die. That is why you should cast your death curse not too late but also not too early.
I'm pretty sure this is the case. The way death curses are described it seems like a last ditch effort to use up all the energy in your body you have left to cast one final spell in order to harm/protect/whatever at your target. While the wizard might have been effectively killed by whomever put them in the situation where they are using the death curse, it's always seemed like more of a final suicide option. The wizard, understanding they are doomed anyway, takes the reigns and says "I'm going out on my own terms".
Harry does almost kill himself with magic a few times in the book, just when he is slinging it around at his enemies. It's entirely possible if you don't stop yourself in time you could bleed yourself dry with magic, possibly with one big spell.
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What I meant was that someone taking you out gets to decide how you are no longer part of that conflict. If they choose that you die, you get to throw your death curse as you always own your death scene. If they dictate that you're knocked out, you don't actually get automatically get to say "I launch my death curse instead". The situation might be such that you could, but it's not necessary by either source fiction or rules.
If you chose to death curse (as a concession for instance), then yes, of course your character is killed. (Even though that might not mean the character is completely gone; for a superb example of a mechanic-light, narratively masterful death curse, have a look at the climax of Haru's PbP Cradle of Darkness (http://"http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28668.msg1922481.html#msg1922481")! Link is of course very spoilery for the story, I recommend reading it in full instead.)
Most death curses are not continuous effects, Maggie's is explicitly practically unique in its longevity. Most, even from very old and experienced wizards, are immediate and very violent, since the circumstances of their use usually don't leave terribly much time to consider more complex options and once emotions tend to lean toward direct, retaliatory action.
While the Free Will-aspect is interesting, the only non-mortal suspected of being capable of a death curse is Mavra, and BCV are specifically by WoJ on the very low end of free will.
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Also something to keep in mind is free will. I would argue that only a practitioner who has free will can cast a death curse. We get into a grey area with vampires as they seem to be creatures with far more free will than other monsters, but less than humans. Vampires aside though, most monsters shouldn't get a death curse. Faeries, old gods, dragons and the like are all bound by rules and limitation that might not be readily apparent, but forbid them from taking actions of true free will and thus cannot act outside of those restrictions. further, it is entirely possible that most of the power they wield are mantles of one form or another and the power of a mantle can't simply be used up and discarded, it must be passed to another individual (as logic would dictate by the very nature of a mantle of power).
I'd need to re-read the scene, but Harry was pretty clear that the only reason he didn't eat a death curse from the villain in Summer Knight is because said villain was too focused on trying to fulfill her purpose. If the villain had recognized the futility of that effort and turned on him, he certainly thought she could curse him. I think you're putting too much emphasis on the power of the mantle, and overlooking that anyone who takes up a mantle of any sort has to have the free will & life energy to do so.
Rather than calling Mavra an exception, lets just accept her as proof that even monsters without free will still have the ability to throw a death curse.
Harry does almost kill himself with magic a few times in the book, just when he is slinging it around at his enemies. It's entirely possible if you don't stop yourself in time you could bleed yourself dry with magic, possibly with one big spell.
The difference here is the death curse deliberately tosses any limits overboard. You could accidentally drain yourself to death, maybe, but I'd argue that without the choice to do so, your body's final reserves will go untapped, even as they dwindle to a point where they aren't enough to keep yourself alive. Your body -- your *life* -- has a lot of energy bound into it that you can't tap into on a daily basis. A death curse willingly shoves those limits aside, knowing it's your death.
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The difference here is the death curse deliberately tosses any limits overboard. You could accidentally drain yourself to death, maybe, but I'd argue that without the choice to do so, your body's final reserves will go untapped, even as they dwindle to a point where they aren't enough to keep yourself alive. Your body -- your *life* -- has a lot of energy bound into it that you can't tap into on a daily basis. A death curse willingly shoves those limits aside, knowing it's your death.
Well, there was a point in Grave Peril where Harry cast a large enough fire spell that his heart stopped beating in his chest. It required actual divine intervention to get it going again.
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Well, there was a point in Grave Peril where Harry cast a large enough fire spell that his heart stopped beating in his chest. It required actual divine intervention to get it going again.
Severe Physical Consequence: Heart Attack
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Severe Physical Consequence: Heart Attack
Well, in game terms it could work that way, but in the novel it looks more like an actual Death Curse. Harry uses up all of his regular magic, but he's so angry that he reaches further and his body begins to shut down on him. Sounds pretty Death Curse-like to me.
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Well, in game terms it could work that way, but in the novel it looks more like an actual Death Curse. Harry uses up all of his regular magic, but he's so angry that he reaches further and his body begins to shut down on him. Sounds pretty Death Curse-like to me.
Death curse requires deliberation, and flat out isn't survivable. It may have been headed into death-curse territory -- but it really was just taking a severe for LOTS of extra oomph to the spell.
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Death curse requires deliberation, and flat out isn't survivable. It may have been headed into death-curse territory -- but it really was just taking a severe for LOTS of extra oomph to the spell.
Harry would have died if not for Michael's intervention, which came through a prayer to God. Also, there was deliberation in the way Harry sought more power, it just wasn't rationally motivated. You've just got to remember that the novels don't align perfectly with the RPG, so while mechanically it would likely have been a severe consequence, in the books it was probably a Death Curse that was cured through the power of God.
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I'd need to re-read the scene, but Harry was pretty clear that the only reason he didn't eat a death curse from the villain in Summer Knight is because said villain was too focused on trying to fulfill her purpose. If the villain had recognized the futility of that effort and turned on him, he certainly thought she could curse him. I think you're putting too much emphasis on the power of the mantle, and overlooking that anyone who takes up a mantle of any sort has to have the free will & life energy to do so.
I would argue that traditionally (not going into why that villain might have been able to break rules of their nature), that villain would only have been able to throw a death curse at Harry due to the role he had taken up for that case. It is *explicitly* stated that the villain you are referring to and her peers cannot affect mortals, unless they are under the purview of the Fae, such as having broken a deal with the Fae, or acting as an emissary to the Fae, or (most commonly) becoming a knight of a Fae court. Harry had every right to fear her in that particular moment, as he was acting as an emissary to the Fae and they could affect him (especially in that place of power), but most of the time they cannot use thair magic over a mortal, let alone death curse one. It's the entire reason they have the Knights.
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I would argue that traditionally (not going into why that villain might have been able to break rules of their nature), that villain would only have been able to throw a death curse at Harry due to the role he had taken up for that case. It is *explicitly* stated that the villain you are referring to and her peers cannot affect mortals, unless they are under the purview of the Fae, such as having broken a deal with the Fae, or acting as an emissary to the Fae, or (most commonly) becoming a knight of a Fae court. Harry had every right to fear her in that particular moment, as he was acting as an emissary to the Fae and they could affect him (especially in that place of power), but most of the time they cannot use thair magic over a mortal, let alone death curse one. It's the entire reason they have the Knights.
I wouldn't argue that at all (except for the probable intervention of Nemesis). It's also totally irrelevant to my point: that Fae can, in fact, throw death curses.
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In regard to the original post, if every villain is throwing a huge Death Curse at you, that's just not consistent with the books. A lot of dark wizards and creatures of the night don't think to cast a Death Curse because they're hugely arrogant bastards who don't honestly believe they'll lose or die. Think of Grevane when Ramirez opens up his throat -- instead of realizing he's about to die he just keeps trying to control the zombies.
Vampires, given their whole thing is cheating death, are going to be even moreso. Harry had a solid 30 seconds between actually beating Arianna in their duel and actually killing her, and she didn't fire off a Death Curse because she was in shock and disbelief.
Throwing out a Death Curse, to some extent, requires the humility and realization that you're going to die. The vast majority of supernatural creatures simply are not going to have that.
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In regard to the original post, if every villain is throwing a huge Death Curse at you, that's just not consistent with the books. A lot of dark wizards and creatures of the night don't think to cast a Death Curse because they're hugely arrogant bastards who don't honestly believe they'll lose or die. Think of Grevane when Ramirez opens up his throat -- instead of realizing he's about to die he just keeps trying to control the zombies.
Vampires, given their whole thing is cheating death, are going to be even moreso. Harry had a solid 30 seconds between actually beating Arianna in their duel and actually killing her, and she didn't fire off a Death Curse because she was in shock and disbelief.
Throwing out a Death Curse, to some extent, requires the humility and realization that you're going to die. The vast majority of supernatural creatures simply are not going to have that.
Yeah, I have to agree with this.