6436
DF Spoilers / Re: A Question About Naagloshii
« on: June 10, 2019, 03:04:26 PM »Or he could do what a lot of men do.
Exactly, only worse than what the worst of the worst of men would do....
This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
Or he could do what a lot of men do.
The passages I quoted would have been better had they been longer, I was lazy.
However, remember Mab's words to Harry after the fight on Demonreach in Cold Days. Quoting Mab.
Quote
You made her curious about what you could do, and nurtured that curiosity with silence.
And.
Quote
I stood there with my mouth open for a second. "That...that isn't...what I did."
Mab leaned closer to me and said, "That is precisely what you did," she said.
I creatively edited those quotes. What he does in Changes is the one time the trope is turned upside down. He gets her to use Black Magic to wipe his mind so that Mab won't know he caused his own death. Thus according to your addiction theory, giving heroin to a heroin addict. Bails on her, violating her probation. And gets her shot and mind f****d at Chichen Itza. If there is a clear example that Harry has hurt someone, this is it. Anyway, as usual, it's been fun. Thanks.
I severely doubt the a skinwalker (who is supposed to be evil) would be interested in having a human love it. Given what Jim has told us about them, I think it more likely that it would rape a nun and torture her for nine months rather than have a woman believe that she (nun or not) was in love for nine months.
I brought up the addiction thing specifically in response to your claim that, since Molly violated the terms of her parole even though the consequence of doing so was death, then no consequence would be sufficient to prevent Kim from doing what she did. However, this is comparing apples to oranges. Molly is a recovering addict falling off the wagon. Kim is a college student who decides to shoplift because she doesn't want to admit to her parents that she needs money. The situations are not at all the same, and consequences that the addict will ignore can and frequently will be enough to prevent the college student from doing things.
Kim heard Harry say, you aren't able to and shouldn't do this. Because it was important to her she attempted to do so irregardless. But she was evidently unable to correctly judge her level of knowledge. This is why humans under the age of 30 typically pay more for car insurance. Harry had assumed the role of teacher to help her when she came into her magic. He failed in the obligation he assumed. As a moral agent he has to accept that he has failed. One purpose of guilt and remorse is to keep you from repeating those failures.
What would your moral ground be like if you left a gun out where a child could get it, with no more protection for the child then your assertion to the child that the gun was dangerous and they should leave it be? If you hesitate before you answer, don't have kids. They have no agency, they can't be responsible. Children die every year because parents fail to understand this.
You will probably not agree with me when I assert that Kim had no agency in this matter. She simply wasn't experienced enough with magic to gauge her capabilities. This will arise again when he takes on Molly as an apprentice. In Turn Coat Molly will attempt to use mind magic on Luccio. And it is only because Morgan chooses to take that knowledge to the grave that Molly and Harry don't lose their heads. And Molly knew she was under the Doom of Damocles. In other words Harry and the Council put the gun on the table and told her not to touch it.
Kim heard Harry say, you aren't able to and shouldn't do this. Because it was important to her she attempted to do so irregardless. But she was evidently unable to correctly judge her level of knowledge. This is why humans under the age of 30 typically pay more for car insurance. Harry had assumed the role of teacher to help her when she came into her magic. He failed in the obligation he assumed. As a moral agent he has to accept that he has failed. One purpose of guilt and remorse is to keep you from repeating those failures.
@Mira
I made that comparison to show that in a fight that Harry and the werewolves were outmatched. There was no defense possible. In the book the only one who gets close is Listens To Wind. The devil is in the details, but I think we are in the same Church, but in different pews.
Quote
And I abruptly understood Kim Delaney’s request. She had to have known Harley MacFinn, maybe through her environmental activism. She must have learned of his curse, and wanted to help him. When I had refused to help her, she had attempted to re-create the greater summoning circle upstairs in the bedroom, to hold in MacFinn once the moon rose. As I had warned her would happen, she had failed. She hadn’t had the knowledge necessary to understand how such a construct would function, and consequently, she hadn’t been able to make it work.
MacFinn had killed her. Kim was dead because I had refused to share my knowledge with her, because I hadn’t given her my help. I had been so secure in my knowledge and wisdom; withholding such secrets from her had been the action of a concerned and reasoned adult speaking to an overeager child. I couldn’t believe my own arrogance, the utter confidence with which I had condemned her to death.
So he had misgivings at Mac's and surprise, surprise, she dies. So McFinn killed her, because the FBI agents destroyed his circle, because she made a bad choice, because she knew just enough to get her killed, and Harry could have said show me your problem and if I can I will help. Break any of those links in the chain and Kim doesn't die. Harry was the last man standing who could have changed the outcome once the events were moving. Harry's moral failure is in assuming responsibility for helping her, and then not doing so.
Mira
The attack at Raith Manor reflects the attack on the Alphas. The point, to me, is to show this isn't about how Kirby could be saved. It's about showing that Harry's strategy isn't working. See below.
1)The first belief was that there was safety in ignorance.
2)The second that he could involve them without exposing them to what he said he was trying to protect them from.
From that stand point it is ALL Will's fault that Kirby died... He is the one who called his pack to fight even though Harry was unable to give him any more information than he did about what they were up against... End of story...
Harry denies them the ability to exercise informed consent. It isn't about changing the outcome, it's about Wills right to make his own judgement about what is best for his pack and how best to move.
Quote
@Mira
The point of bringing up the attack at Raith Manor is to point out that once Harry had led the skinwalker to the Alphas, that someone would die if the skinwalker wanted them dead. The Alphas had not a chance in hell. This is the nature of Harry's failure. Harry as written, believed in two contradictory things, that he could protect them by keeping them in the dark and that he could use them without this eventually happening.
1. Kirby died because Harry withheld information.No, Harry had with held nothing, all he knew was it was big, bad, and so ugly it made him catatonic, he conveyed that information, the pack still backed him..
2. The skinwalker was going to kill Kirby no matter what Harry didMost likely, only difference Kirby would have known what killed him when it did..
I don't understand how anyone can agree with both statements. (I agree with statement two, mostly. The skinwalker killed Kirby as a message; therefore, it could have killed a different Alpha because Harry did something that lead to different results, but the skinwalker was definitely going to kill an Alpha if Harry went to Will's place).
I read the quote, mostly because I can't see how fully briefing Billy would have changed anything, as either Harry illogically blaming his withholding of information for Kirby's death or simply stating that Billy wasn't going to follow blindly because Kirby died. Kirby's death cements the seriousness of Will's role as leader for Will.
No one has demonstrated how Harry briefing Billy on the wider world of the supernatural could have saved Kirby. Until someone does that, I'm going to remain obstinate in my position that Harry's withholding of information did not get Kirby killed. I'll go so far as to say it is hypothetically possible, but that's it until someone can at least give me a hypothetical.
Even if in the text Billy said "Kirby is dead because you withheld information from us," and Dresden said "That is correct," I would still say "what" because, as you said, the skinwalker was going to kill whoever it wanted anyway.
How about instead, we take everyone's position, average them, and agree that I'm right?
"What is it?" Billy asked quietly.
"I don't know," I said. "But it is real bad." I glanced at Georgia.
"How long was I down?"
She checked her watch./ "Eighty-two minutes."
Billy looked up at me, Kirby's blood all over his face and hand.Then on page 35
"What is it, Harry?"
"A Native American nightmare," I said, I looked at him grimly, "A skinwalker."
"What are you going to do?"
"Find out why it's here," I said. "There's Council business afoot. Christ, I didn't mean to bring you into this." I stared toward the knot of officers around Kirby's corpse. "I didn't mean for this to happen."
"Kirby was an adult, Desden,"Billy said. "He knew what could happen. He chose to be here."
Which was the truth. But it didn't help. Kirby was still dead.I hadn't known what a skinwalker was before, beyond something awlful, but that didn't change things..
I sighed. "I'm sorry."
He shrugged. "Kirby knew the risks. He'd rather have died than stand by and do nothing..
I nodded. "It's part of something bigger I cannot talk about everything that is going on.
@Morris: What, precisely, does that quote answer? It's reasons why Billy thinks he should be fully informed. He's not really even asking that Harry inform the Alphas of everything, only their leader. He's also stating that changing past actions could have, but not necessarily would have, changed the outcome. And as you said, what happened at the Raith mansion is pretty strong evidence that Harry could not have adequately prepared them for the attack.
I read it perfectly fine the first time. My point, which was apparently missed, was that you could fall in love with a grizzly bear; but if you try to give that grizzly a kiss you're going to get eaten.
The only way she could fall in love with a naagloshii is if it tricked her into it.
And my comment about rape was not about methodology. My hypothesis was that she would not, regardless if it were possible. Otherwise the whole theory falls apart.
My original point is that Murphy's antagonism to Dresden in Fool Moon isn't properly set up, and we have to read between the lines in the rest of the series to back fill it. Even then, there is great debate on whether or not her actions are explainable.
I'm the other way around, I think (almost) every new book in the series has improved over the prior ones. Exceptions are Blood Rites, White Night and Ghost Story.
A part of me is like the longer the book, the more I'll get to read, but another part of me is like finish already! I want to read it now!