We've talked a lot about this of late, and I am wondering if Justin enthralled her at all. There are a few things that don't add up and it is possible that she was only acting enthralled.
Even if she wasn’t enthralled he was planning to act against Harry. Why… then? Why the clumsy action with poor preparation?
...
What changed that made Justin move so suddenly that Harry perceived nothing out of the ordinary until he got home. That doesn’t sound planned it sounds rushed… desperate.
We’ve seen that the slow whams are the best. This was pretty clearly a desperate act.
Elsethread was posed the question: what if it was an attempted Nemfection?
Would young-Harry, half-trained and in a panic, have even known the difference?
Perhaps he got wind of the Leansidhe coming to check up on Harry or even take him away? Justin was a Warden, but I doubt he could have stopped her if she were determined or bound by her deal with Maggie Sr.
Even if she wasn’t enthralled he was planning to act against Harry. Why… then? Why the clumsy action with poor preparation?I don't think we have enough info. Furthermore, what info we do have is highly-suspect: every time Harry recalls the events or has a flashback, we see something very different. We know harry was right off of a mental trauma, with consequent likely memory-issues.
Could be he was ordered or pressured to by The Walker.
He Who Walks Behind set up the whole gas station scene to test and prime Harry into violence. Walkers are major league you can't summon one easily. One just happened to be around at Harry's first true trial?
Might be the walker was already waiting in the wings and dumorne (cough kemmler cough) was under pressure to prepare Harry for it in time.
Even if she wasn’t enthralled he was planning to act against Harry. Why… then? Why the clumsy action with poor preparation?Leah explained it perfectly imo, it's hard to get young wizards to believe in doing magical violence. Both dumorne and behind were more interested in manipulating Harry's choices than actually enthrallment or murder. Behind is shown heavily in book goading Harry(same as Cat Sith later 👀 ) but dumorne? Look at his scenes teaching magic, what he actually taught them. He could have indoctrinated them with their own power, made them believe it worked any which way he desired and connected them to him in a proper cult fashion. None of which he did. What he did was teach it to him pure, almost the same as Eb(I'd bet Eb would have been a harder teacher before failing Margaret), as power and strength, as an art unto itself.
I don't think we have enough info. Furthermore, what info we do have is highly-suspect: every time Harry recalls the events or has a flashback, we see something very different. We know harry was right off of a mental trauma, with consequent likely memory-issues.
What if it wasn't even communicated / collaborated between Justin & HWWB? What if Justin wasn't in league with the Walker at all, but detected the Walker's arrival (much as Harry and Eb did the cornerhounds in Peace Talks) then panicked, and tried to force the Starborn wizard(s) to be ready...?
Leah explained it perfectly imo, it's hard to get young wizards to believe in doing magical violence. Both dumorne and behind were more interested in manipulating Harry's choices than actually enthrallment or murder. Behind is shown heavily in book goading Harry(same as Cat Sith later 👀 ) but dumorne? Look at his scenes teaching magic, what he actually taught them. He could have indoctrinated them with their own power, made them believe it worked any which way he desired and connected them to him in a proper cult fashion. None of which he did. What he did was teach it to him pure, almost the same as Eb(I'd bet Eb would have been a harder teacher before failing Margaret), as power and strength, as an art unto itself.
Then he was goaded into two different(?) Battles to the death winning both by... Well, doing Death to the opponent. Seems to me they manipulated him into doing exactly as he did 🤷♂️ it's only factoring in Justin's intentions for Elaine that things get muddied.
Yeah that could be it. It certainly seemed rushed after raising a pair of kids for 6 years.
Agreed. What changed… for Dumorne to see a need to change his methods?
My personal theory is that since we now know hhwb wasn't sent by Justin, he was sent for him.
Which meant that Justin (who had hijacked Maggie's Starborn plan for his own ends) needed Harry and Elaine ready early, which meant abandoning traditional brainwashing/conditioning in favour of Magical alternatives.
Unfortunately for him, hhwb was able to turn Justin's anti-outsider wmd against him.
My personal theory is that since we now know hhwb wasn't sent by Justin, he was sent for him...I don't think we know that.
Just tin foil, don't ask lol, but I've begun to consider the mental confusion around the fights, the circumstances, what exactly happened and when... I think Justin was just HWWBH's meat suit in the end. So potentially it wasn't the gas station that banished him(unless the memetic timeline has been told to us wrong) Justin empowered and summoned hwwbh but... He didn't use the cosmic vending machine. He used his own magic to summon an outsider into the world... We don't know when or how many times he actually summoned him, how long he had such an ongoing relationship with him. But he created through magic and choice an outsider knight in the world. I think that changed him on a fundamental level, opening him up to future access. Similar to what happened with Molly, except reversed. He created something by synchrony that left him open to it.
My standard tinfoil theory is Justin was just another variant of Kemmler...(used to be Harry, but i realized..)To go along with my theory of the 7th Dresden and MM, and the usual mirroring of things... Harry learned from Kemmlers Bob how to do necromancy, leads to him learning how to do the body swap thing, leads to the same results.. the 7th version is greater than expected. Took out original Kemmlers, maybe stole a body along the way. And since the council hadn't twigged to two Kemmlers they really are quite sure they killed THAT one, which they intended to.
Why for either theory tho? It's been hinted/theorized at Kemmler might have been trying for a reincarnation.
So HWWBH or Alt Kemmler, both wanted Harry to(click to show/hide)
I'm not sure, but I suspect Jim is too savvy a writer to hinge the entire rest of the series (from Mirror Mirror onwards) on a bunch of multiversal twists&turns, on 7 Harrys (Harries?) and alt!Kemmlers, etc etc etc ad infinitum.🙄 he already did technically, Demon Reach.
I think most of his readership would find it not worth following the complexities.
He's already -- IMO -- on the borderline of "too complex" with 1 multiverse novel + 1 time-travel/retcon/repair-the-Sacred-Timeline novel.
🙄 he already did technically, Demon Reach.With all due respect: I apologize for whatever degree of "misconstrual" and/or "bullying" you perceive; none was intended.
Tho as is usual your misconstruing a simple concept and plot twist that doesn't "govern the rest of the series", that's the greatest thing about the DF, you can enjoy it on many levels. Plus he has the time travel book last? Heh, I disagree. What I said was a tin foil theory to begin with, I literally started with an apologetic don't try because it's nonsensical. To share your doubt immediately after our ahem, history is bad taste. Opinion vs opinion that's enough said for me..
However be aware "I'm not sure" is synonymous with "I don't think". And when people try to simply unname a theory as viable based on that.. well, the saying goes,",those who say you can't shouldn't interrupt those who already are".
And this has been a point of contention on how people come at each other from it has been the gathering of much heated debate and mod warnings for years. Because it is not discussion, it does not promote discussion. And it should not exist here. It drives people away as is it's intention and is a perversion of etiquette, designed as such. Quite frankly, I'll go all ten rounds with anyone who disagrees and all day after. Stop trying to bully me, please and thank you 🙏
(Oh and you have no idea what the original theory was, because seven of nobody is running around when bodies are being tossed behind them to escape.. and proper etiquette would be to do as I asked previously and be curious about that)
With all due respect: I apologize for whatever degree of "misconstrual" and/or "bullying" you perceive; none was intended.then you should address them. Misunderstanding only happens under lack of communication after all.
I likewise find your reply to me filled with "misconstrual" and mis-statements as to what I had said.
I think it best not to engage further.
I'll re-introduce my own WAG here... part of which is that Justin isn't (necessarily(*)) the "evil wizard" Harry thinks he is.
He's "old-school" and harsh, for sure... fastball baseballs as shield-training, &c. But the mover & shaker in this was Mab(**).
... But was he equally tough on Elaine? We know nothing of his lessons with her. Why weren't her and Harry taught together? ...
I think Harry&Elaine were (largely) being taught together.
They certainly shared a lot of homework assignments!
I'm sure there were some lessons specific to each of them, while the other did bookwork &c. Their respective strengths and weaknesses differ, after all (not that we know a lot about Elaine's, but we see their preferred methods aren't identical).
I presume Elaine got largely-similar treatment to what Harry got; if Justin was notably harder or easier on her, we'd have heard about it by this time: it's the sort of thing kids remember even into adulthood.
... Also we presume it was magical homework they shared, it could have been a math assignment from school ...I'm pretty sure it would have been both! ;D
... For some reason Justin attempted to enthrall Elaine first, if she was in fact enthralled. Target of opportunity? As he taught them did he find her more vulnerable? ..."Target of opportunity" works as a viable theory; maybe Justin had been looking for a "natural" opportunity to get one of them alone, and just took the chance he was given. Maybe he even rushed his own plans a bit, noting a better chance than anything he had seen in a long while.
... Here is another thing that really doesn't add up.. Supposedly Elaine stayed home from school that day because she was sick.. Harry cut class to return home to be with her.. Where did Harry think Justin would be during this? Did Justin have some kind of day job? Was Justin so involved with his magical research that he wouldn't notice that Harry cut school? Did Justin even care if Harry cut school? Apparently it was no surprise that Harry would cut school, Justin and "enthralled Elaine" were waiting for him with a straight jacket.. The point I am getting at is, Justin counted on Harry cutting class and coming home when he did, and then trapping him. Would he have attempted it if Harry had not cut class that day?
Cite please? I recall it as Harry getting home from a normal school-day, not that he had cut class. But maybe I misremember.
I never suspected a thing about what he really wanted,until the day Elaine stayed home sick. Concerned about her, I skipped my last class and came home early. The house seemed too quiet, and an energy I had never sensed before hung in the air like cloying perfume.
"You skipped class again." He sighed. "I should have seen that coming."
Their expressions gave me nothing. That was when my eyes fell to the coffee table and to the object lying quietly next to my well-mauled copy of The Hobbit.
A straightjacket.
"Boy!" Justin said, projecting his voice loudly. I looked over my shoulder at him as I ran. His eyes were more coldly furious than I had ever seen them. "You are here with me--with Elaine. Or you are nowhere. If you don't come back right now, you are dead to me"The "nowhere" in italics are Jim's not mine. Now it could be that Justin was super confident that Elaine was with him because he had enthralled her... Or it really was a planned act to get Harry from the get go, and him coming home early broke up their plans before they were ready for him.
Does it matter (why does it matter) whether Justin had been planning for Harry to get home early, or just get home at the regular time?
Except if you look at Harry's style, he still uses rings, bracelets, firing rods etc.. It was even truer when he was younger, Justin would know that.what does that have to do with Justin, who can call fire to his arm and not burn himself 🤔
I agree that Justin was old school, but I don't think Mab is the mover and shaker here. I also agree that there is a lot of missing information and when and if we ever find out what and why of it it will turn out to be a lot more complicated than we think.
We don't know how Mab's intelligence network works. Specifically, we don't know how Mab became aware of Lea's involvement with Margaret LeFay and her son. We only know that at some point Mab became interested in seeing Harry in action, to make her own judgement about his potential.
My personal theory is that since we now know hhwb wasn't sent by Justin, he was sent for him.
Which meant that Justin (who had hijacked Maggie's Starborn plan for his own ends) needed Harry and Elaine ready early, which meant abandoning traditional brainwashing/conditioning in favour of Magical alternatives.
Unfortunately for him, hhwb was able to turn Justin's anti-outsider wmd against him.
It might have been Summer Knight when Mab took on Harry's "contract" with Lea. The three favors he owed her for the "confidence" she gave him when he was sixteen to take on Justin. Mab knew that what Lea did was mostly song and dance and that it is no small thing that a sixteen year old apprentice can take on, defeat and kill a fully trained warden of the White Council.
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Re: Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?
« Reply #35 on: Today at 06:15:38 PM »
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Quote from: Mira on Today at 01:00:10 PM
It might have been Summer Knight when Mab took on Harry's "contract" with Lea. The three favors he owed her for the "confidence" she gave him when he was sixteen to take on Justin. Mab knew that what Lea did was mostly song and dance and that it is no small thing that a sixteen year old apprentice can take on, defeat and kill a fully trained warden of the White Council.
I think you are reading more significance into my statement "We don't know how Mab's intelligence network works." than is actually there. All I am saying is we don't know if Mab had her own spies watching various starborn mortals and one of them reported to her about Harry's confrontation with Justin or if Mab had a conversation with Lea and asked her about the starborn mortal Lea was working with or if the Winter Queen has some kind of intellectus that keeps her informed about Lea's plans. To simply my original statement, what I am really saying is, it is not important how Mab learned about Harry, only that at some point she became interested in taking the time to watch Harry in action.