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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: darkfire14 on April 04, 2011, 07:18:38 PM

Title: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: darkfire14 on April 04, 2011, 07:18:38 PM
The Knights of the Cross are pretty interesting in my opinion, but they also have a large problem as well. There are supposedly only three holy swords, two of which eventually fell into Dresden's hands and were never redistributed. First of all, WHY IN HELL would the church even allow Dresden to keep such relics? Wouldn't they want to take them and redistribute them immediately to worthy successors. There is no time for these swords to sit around idle, when there is a constant war to fight against evil.

Secondly, just THREE SWORDS in the entire world? Come on, there are numerous legends of TONS of other holy swords. What about the sword of Jenne D'arc for instance? She's a canonized saint who performed miracles on the battlefield, so don't tell me her blade wouldn't be a holy relic comparable to the swords that the Knights of the Cross wield.

Honestly, can only THREE SWORDS make a difference in the ENTIRE WORLD! Definitely shows the church doesn't care enough to fight evil if they depend on only three people to be their champions, while the regular priests just give their weak ass prayers and hope to make the world a better place. So SHOULD there be more than three holy swords in the Dresdenverse?
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Bujin on April 04, 2011, 07:22:43 PM
I think it should be only three.  The mythology of the Knights of the Cross is specifically tied to the three nails that Jesus was crucified with, pitted against foes representing the Judas' 30 pieces of silver.  While there are certainly other swords that could be used in the Dresden-verse, they definitely would dilute that mythology.

As for why the Church allows Harry to keep the swords, I think it's been established that the Church doesn't control who wields the swords, but rather has faith that the swords find their wielder.  They take a longer view of the battle.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: WillH on April 04, 2011, 07:33:12 PM
Two things, first read The Warrior in Side Jobs. Second, all that stuff in the books is Jim's story. Tell your own story. It doesn't need to follow the books exactly. Maybe Harry give one to someone in your game, or perhaps the knights in the novels aren't the Knights in your story at all.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Tedronai on April 04, 2011, 07:36:06 PM
And what's to say that some of those other 'holy swords' weren't actually just various incarnations of the Swords of the Cross?
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on April 04, 2011, 07:37:58 PM
There are other "holy warrior" types - there's even a Church order discussed in one of the stories.  The short stories The Warrior gives some details on that.

But the three swords are Special.  The Church didn't decide that there would be three of them - someone "High Up" did.  They were made to counter the influence of 30 Fallen Angels that are partly free from Hell and someone up there decided that at 10 : 1 ratio was fair.

In addition to what the Church is doing, the book Turn Coat
(click to show/hide)

Then are other groups who fight "evil" - usually listed as allies of the White Council (at least they allies during the Red Court War) who might not have a close religious angle.


If you're looking for "This guy was picked by God to fight evil" there's an entire section of powers in the book dealing with Faith.  It's just that only three of them get Swords.

Richard
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Paynesgrey on April 04, 2011, 07:40:14 PM
Yeah.... the Church seems to acknowledge that the disposition of the Swords is from Higher Authority.  I wouldn't be surprised if over the centuries there was some trial and error where some faction would try to decide who they thought should carry the Swords.  Politcal and dogmatic reliablity and the like.  And those darned coincidences just kept putting the swords in someone else's hands...  These days, chances are most members of the clergy and even administration don't even know of their existance.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: vampmike on April 04, 2011, 07:41:16 PM
Quote from: darkfire14 on April 04, 2011, 07:18:38 PM
The Knights of the Cross are pretty interesting in my opinion, but they also have a large problem as well. There are supposedly only three holy swords, two of which eventually fell into Dresden's hands and were never redistributed. First of all, WHY IN HELL would the church even allow Dresden to keep such relics? Wouldn't they want to take them and redistribute them immediately to worthy successors. There is no time for these swords to sit around idle, when there is a constant war to fight against evil.

Secondly, just THREE SWORDS in the entire world? Come on, there are numerous legends of TONS of other holy swords. What about the sword of Jenne D'arc for instance? She's a canonized saint who performed miracles on the battlefield, so don't tell me her blade wouldn't be a holy relic comparable to the swords that the Knights of the Cross wield.

Honestly, can only THREE SWORDS make a difference in the ENTIRE WORLD! Definitely shows the church doesn't care enough to fight evil if they depend on only three people to be their champions, while the regular priests just give their weak ass prayers and hope to make the world a better place. So SHOULD there be more than three holy swords in the Dresdenverse?

bujins dead on, the Knights of the cross are 3 because there are 3 swords, remember that they have a specific goal to fight the Denarians or more specifically to save the hosts if possible and kill if not.

now thats does not mean that there are only 3 holy relics of the white god that fight evil, these are just the ones that are focused on in the books. in a game i ran i had a player want a sword exactly like the swords of the cross, and we came upon a good idea, that there were swords out there called the swords of the archangels, the order of the sword [as we called it] was to defend the world against the outsiders.

now there is no reason why there isnt another order whos specific goals are the defeat of vampires,mages, the fey.  and where does the power of these swords come from well there are thousands of saints bones or items that once belonged to them.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: sandchigger on April 04, 2011, 07:52:50 PM
Quote from: Paynesgrey on April 04, 2011, 07:40:14 PM
These days, chances are most members of the clergy and even administration don't even know of their existance.

Both Michael and Father Forthill acknowledge this in The Warrior. Something like less than a dozen priests all over the world know the full story of the swords.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: tymire on April 04, 2011, 08:19:21 PM
Just have to say "The Warrior" probably is my favorite short story.  Uriel's discussion with Harry at the end was just fricken awesome.  It gives more insight how the Archangels work than any other books written by JB.

But as stated the church itself doesn't really have anything to do with the swords as they fall under the Archangels portfolio.  The few that know about them respect that, hence why Harry still has two.  It's also why out of the three Knights we have seen; only one of them might be a Catholic (I don’t remember seeing anything that said what denomination Michael was).  It seems one of the only requirements is to be a noble linage.  The fact the sword of love is being wielded by someone that is Angoistic is just hillarious.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Belial666 on April 04, 2011, 08:25:55 PM
You mean the sword of Faith, right?

Also, it is not hilarious. To believe in something when you (correctly) claim you know nothing about it is harder to do than to believe in something you believe you know.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: sandchigger on April 04, 2011, 08:26:27 PM
Michael is a Catholic, Shiro was a Baptist (technically) and Sanya is agnostic.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: tymire on April 04, 2011, 09:04:26 PM
Bah am wrong.  Sanya has the Sword of Hope, Micheal/Susan used the Sword of Love, and Shiro/Murph used the Sword of Faith.  It's clear which is which in Changes.

Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: sandchigger on April 04, 2011, 09:41:09 PM
And to get the thread back to the original topic. I'm perfectly okay with there being more Holy Weapons in the Dresdenverse. I just see them as the primary order of Holy Warriors fighting for the White God who are supported by the Church. Somewhere on the boards is a character concept for a guy wielding the Spear of Destiny. It's functionally identical to the Swords of the Cross, but there's just one of it and there's not a lot of backup coming for it's wielder.

Heck, it's not as though Christianity is the only religion out there, there's no reason to limit warriors of the faith to one group of faithful. I'm sure that muslims, jews, hindus and buddhists all have their own devout protectors. And beyond that, Jim's written in both Norse and Greek gods, and there's no reason that they too can't have their own champions. You could have Champions of Thor smiting the children of Ice and Fire giants (maybe the fae of the Summer and Winter courts?) with their Hammers or the Chosen of Herakles (the most widely worshipped pre-christian deity in the world) out beating modern day Nemean Lions to death with their bare hands.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: TheMouse on April 04, 2011, 09:43:50 PM
I usually figure it's like this.

The Swords were created very specifically to deal with the 40 Fallen associated with the silver coins belonging to Judas. That's their whole point. When they do other things, it is just their wielders performing acts of good will while waiting for the next chance to deal with the Denarians, hopefully to save them.

There are sure to be other magic items. We know for sure that there are: Wardens swords are in point of fact magical swords. There are probably lots of ways that people have over time used magic to make swords better.

Now the question is, are there other holy weapons? It seems likely to me. A number of saints have been known to have weapons. A Judeochristianity doesn't have exclusive possession of myths about holy weapons. Odin was known to bless warriors' swords (although it was often a way to screw them in the end). And there are lots more if you look.

In short, the Swords of the Cross are pretty special. But their existence doesn't stop other magical and/or holy weapons from existing. Some may even be as special as the Swords are. The Archangel Michael is known for carrying a very special sword, for instance.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Belial666 on April 04, 2011, 10:37:27 PM
In fact, the whole "Excalibur" idea comes from the sword "Balmung", a sword forged out of a meteor in Norse mythology. Though the sword is also called "Gram" in some myths.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Oriande on April 05, 2011, 12:23:15 AM
Quote from: Richard_Chilton on April 04, 2011, 07:37:58 PM
... the three swords are Special... They were made to counter the influence of 30 Fallen Angels that are partly free from Hell . If you're looking for "This guy was picked by God to fight evil" there's an entire section of powers in the book dealing with Faith.  It's just that only three of them get Swords.

I'd say rather that Only the Knights of the Cross are chosen to wield those particular swords.  As Bujin said:
Quote from: Bujin on April 04, 2011, 07:22:43 PM
The mythology of the Knights of the Cross is specifically tied to the three nails that Jesus was crucified with, pitted against foes representing the Judas' 30 pieces of silver. 

So, while I wouldn't alter anything regarding those swords or their wielders, I do believe that there is room in the Dresdenverse and certianly room in your game if you so desire for other holy or magic swords and their weilders.  Literature is full of examples, St. Joan being only one of them.

In my campaign, the players have recently uncovered information about an unknown branch of the Order of Santiago which was not secularized in the sixteenth century, but instead continues to watch over four Swords of the Saints: Joyeuse, Durandal, Curtana and Almace, and their potential wielders. [Note:  I chose these with reference to the Song of Roland and each contains relics of a specific patron saint.]
Of course, Charlemagne’s sword is said to have been buried with him, and Curtana is currently in Ultima Thule…  ;)
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Becq on April 05, 2011, 12:57:08 AM
It seems simple to me.  There are only three Swords of the Cross (on made from each nail).  However, the Swords of the Cross are only one example of an Item of Power, and there is by no means a limit of only three Items of Power...

Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: bobjob on April 05, 2011, 05:27:01 PM
There's a thread around here somewhere concerning the Legend of the 4th Nail. I'll see if I can dig it up, but I'm introducing the 4th sword in my game as the Sword of Piety.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Wyrdrune on April 06, 2011, 07:08:00 AM
Quote from: bobjob on April 05, 2011, 05:27:01 PM
There's a thread around here somewhere concerning the Legend of the 4th Nail. I'll see if I can dig it up, but I'm introducing the 4th sword in my game as the Sword of Piety.

for my game i did exactly that. 4th nail, 4th sword. at the moment it's resting in a church, waiting for a new wielder.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Becq on April 06, 2011, 06:51:34 PM
Quote from: bobjob on April 05, 2011, 05:27:01 PM
There's a thread around here somewhere concerning the Legend of the 4th Nail. I'll see if I can dig it up, but I'm introducing the 4th sword in my game as the Sword of Piety.
Great idea, though you might want to consider 'Sword of Truth' or some alternative, since 'Piety' and 'Faith' are fairly similar.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Paynesgrey on April 06, 2011, 06:56:11 PM
General side note:  If my tattered, raggedy ass memory serves, Michael once explained that the Knight's primary mission wasn't to change the world or fight evil in general, but specifically to prevent the Denarians from doing harm while attempting to recue and redeem the mortal who picked them up.  Granted, they fight evil and save the world in general in the meantime, but that's more of an incidental that dovetails with their main purpose.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Tedronai on April 06, 2011, 07:24:58 PM
Quote from: Becq on April 06, 2011, 06:51:34 PM
Great idea, though you might want to consider 'Sword of Truth' or some alternative, since 'Piety' and 'Faith' are fairly similar.

I'd recommend 'Humility' as being more in line with the canon Swords than 'Truth'.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Autra on April 06, 2011, 07:47:24 PM
Plus, if it was the Sword of Truth, you'd be stuck rescuing some chick named Kahlan in a series of adventures where the quality of the stories declined rather quickly.

/sword of truth angst.

Sorry, back OT
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Ranma1558 on April 07, 2011, 04:03:43 AM
faith and piety are, for the most part very different especially when you look at the original meaning.
"Pietas: "Dutifulness" More than religious piety; a respect for the natural order socially, politically, and religiously. Includes the ideas of patriotism and devotion to others. "
I always liked Piety as the 4th sword or "Gravitas"
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Wyrdrune on April 08, 2011, 07:50:51 AM
Quote from: Becq on April 06, 2011, 06:51:34 PM
Great idea, though you might want to consider 'Sword of Truth' or some alternative, since 'Piety' and 'Faith' are fairly similar.

that's why the sword in my campaign is named Veritaccius :D
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Shecky on April 08, 2011, 10:36:44 AM
Haven't you folks been keeping up? There IS a fourth "Sword"; the former name has been lost in history, but it was melted down and recast in a more... modern form. It is now called Fullautomacchius, the Holy P-90 of Antioch.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Tempus Corvus on April 08, 2011, 02:15:58 PM
Considering the number of saints who were martyred, I thought that there might be holy weapons made from things involving their executions. What about the nails from when Peter was crucified? He was the one who was crucified upside-down, right?
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: DFJunkie on April 08, 2011, 02:31:59 PM
Quote
General side note:  If my tattered, raggedy ass memory serves, Michael once explained that the Knight's primary mission wasn't to change the world or fight evil in general, but specifically to prevent the Denarians from doing harm while attempting to recue and redeem the mortal who picked them up.  Granted, they fight evil and save the world in general in the meantime, but that's more of an incidental that dovetails with their main purpose.
I think this has more to do with the way God works in the Dresdenverse than any special status the Denarians hold.  The creation of the Coins "allowed" God to respond by empowering the Swords.  There is a direct antagonism in that the Knights of the Cross are the opposite numbers of the Knights of the Blackened Denarius, but that doesn't mean that either side would hang it up without the other.  Towards the end of SF Sanya points out that even without the Coins in circulation there would still be evil to fight.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Paynesgrey on April 08, 2011, 03:15:57 PM
Yeah, I don' think the Knights would quit their slay jobs, just move on to other evil.  Just wanted to point out that redeeming denarians was the primary mission rather than fixing the world.  But they're the specialists for Denarians, where God has countless other "warriors" of varying caliber fighting the rest of the evil.  (And of course it's only happy coincidence that the two missions tend to overlap.   ;)  )  It was in reference to the suggestion that God didn't care about fighting evil if he only assigned 3 knights.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: DFJunkie on April 08, 2011, 04:58:11 PM
Quote
It was in reference to the suggestion that God didn't care about fighting evil if he only assigned 3 knights.
Ah!  Okay, that's different. 
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: TheMouse on April 08, 2011, 07:04:18 PM
Quote from: Tempus Corvus on April 08, 2011, 02:15:58 PM
What about the nails from when Peter was crucified? He was the one who was crucified upside-down, right?

Yeah. Nasty, that.

I think that the power of the nails that were used to crucify Christ are kind of in a league of their own. That whole son of God/is actually God thing sort of trumps the being a saint thing. So perhaps the Sword of Saint Peter might be made with all of the nails used to crucify Peter.

Incidentally, Peter is the patron saint of my home town. Every year there is a fiesta, and you can expect to hear crowds of people shouting, "Viva San Pedro!" everywhere you go for a couple of days.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Hudjes on April 12, 2011, 08:26:54 AM
I don't see why there couldn't be more holy swords, or why anyone would even think that there aren't, but the Swords of The Cross are explicitly a set of three linked by the crucification and named after 1 Corinthians 13:13: "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." (Text of New International Version Bible). Fidelacchius being the sword of Faith, Esperacchius the sword of Hope, and Amoracchius the sword of Love.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on April 13, 2011, 05:27:12 AM
For other types of "Holy Warrior" characters, I tend to think the "Sacred Guardian" power listed with the Temple Dogs is really a good idea.  That way, the Swords of the Cross can remain unique, but their general theme can be maintained.  Specifically, before I settled on my current character, I was debating a Sikh who had this ability. 
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Jett on April 14, 2011, 04:55:30 AM
Quote from: Tempus Corvus on April 08, 2011, 02:15:58 PM
Considering the number of saints who were martyred, I thought that there might be holy weapons made from things involving their executions. What about the nails from when Peter was crucified? He was the one who was crucified upside-down, right?

If I remember correctly, the sword of St. Peter (the one he used to lop off an ear in Gethsemene) was taken to England by Joesph of Arimathea (who apparently ran some sort of import/export business).  The Abbot of Glastonbury gave it to St. George, who is also venerated in Islam.  .  I'm not sure, but I think it was called the Sword of Mercy.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Mr. Ghostbuster on April 14, 2011, 08:11:34 AM
All this talk about holy swords. Now there are holy axes, staves and knives all over the world feeling unwanted and neglected.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 14, 2011, 09:56:12 AM
Quote from: Warden of Iowa City on April 14, 2011, 08:11:34 AM
All this talk about holy swords. Now there are holy axes, staves and knives all over the world feeling unwanted and neglected.

A scion of Dionysus could have a holy corkscrew too...
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Save_vs_DM on April 14, 2011, 10:02:28 AM
Quote from: Oriande on April 05, 2011, 12:23:15 AM
In my campaign, the players have recently uncovered information about an unknown branch of the Order of Santiago which was not secularized in the sixteenth century, but instead continues to watch over four Swords of the Saints: Joyeuse, Durandal, Curtana and Almace, and their potential wielders. [Note:  I chose these with reference to the Song of Roland and each contains relics of a specific patron saint.]
Of course, Charlemagne’s sword is said to have been buried with him, and Curtana is currently in Ultima Thule…  ;)
We did something similar in my game. I even have stats for Durendal, if you're interested.

Personally, I don't think it breaks anything if there are more swords, though said swords should have different powers. Here's what I have for Durendal.


Durendal [-3]
Description: Durendal is a holy relic every bit as powerful as one of the Swords of the Cross.  While the Knights of the Cross concern themselves with fighting the Order of the Blackened Denarius, the weilder of Durendal (and several other lesser holy relics) has been tasked with protecting a smaller area of the world.  Where the Swords of the Cross can cut through the most potent protections Durendal can temporarily strip an evil entity of its greatest power.  Such a boon does not last long, however, and so the weilders of this holy relic learn to finish their fights quickly.
Musts: You must have a destiny or calling to inherit the Sword, represented as a high concept or template.
Skills Affected: Weapons, others

Armor of Faith.  When weilded with a true and holy purpose Durendal surrounds the bearer with a nimbus of golden radiance.  This holy light provides the weidler with Armor: 2 against the attacks of supernaturally evil beings and creatures.

Divine Purpose. Durendal may only be swung with true selfless purpose in mind and heart; if this is not the case, the bond between the Weilder and the Sword is broken and may only be restored by undergoing some sort of trial of faith. When swung without such purpose in mind and heart, the blow does not land (any attack roll automatically fails), the bond is immediately broken, and the sword falls from the wielder’s hand.

Hidden from the Unworthy.  Durendal was only meant to be weilded by those of great faith and piety.  Those who do not possess the Righteousness power tend to overlook the presence of Durendal – at least until it has been drawn.

Holy. This weapon is a powerful holy symbol in its own right. Its very touch is like holy water or that of a cross or other symbol of faith backed by the belief of the possessor.

Lay Low the Wicked. Durendal was crafted with a singular purpose in mind – protecting the innocent from supernatural evil.  The Weilder of Durendal can temporarily supress the powers of supernaturally evil beings by spending a Fate point and making a special maneuver.  This is a Weaponry manuever opposed by the target's Conviction or Endurance (whichever is higher).  If the maneuver is successful the Weilder may supress one of the target's powers for a number of exchanges equal to the shifts gained in the action.  If the maneuver is unsuccessful the Weilder instead takes stress equal to the shifts gained by the target.

It’s a Sword. Durendal is a scimitar (+2 damage) with a golden hilt.  It is said to contain within its golden hilt one tooth of Saint Peter, blood of Saint Basil, hair of Saint Denis, and a piece of the raiment of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Unbreakable. As an Item of Power, it cannot be broken, save through dedicated magical ritual predicated upon perverting its purpose.

Discount Already Applied. As an Item of Power, the sword already includes the one-time discount (page 167). This means that if the character possesses more than one Item of Power, the one-time discount will not apply on that second item. If Durendal is the second or subsequent artifact the character gains, the refresh cost is –5.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Archmage_Cowl on April 22, 2011, 11:32:12 PM
that durendal write up is pretty sweet! would you mind posting the cost for it's individual abilities? I know holy is a -1 but other than that i figure it's better to try and get it from the source before i try and come up with my own lol
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Katarn on April 23, 2011, 01:02:38 AM
Other alleged Holy Swords:

*Sword of St. Peter-  used to cut off the ear of the high priest's servant, Malchus.
(Sword Trio)
**Durendal- Charlemagne's paladin Count Roland's sword- with 1 tooth of St. Peter, blood of St. Basil, hair of St. Denis, and the raimant of Mary (all in the hilt).  Roland failed to destroy the blade during an invasion, so he hid it under his corpse (along with a horn to alert Charlemagne).
**Curtana- "Sword of Mercy" owned by Edward the Confessor.  A broken blade now held with the crown jewels.  Used by Ogier as well.
**Joyeuse- Charlemagne's sword
*Zulfiqar- sword in Muslim theology.
(You could argue that the trio ARE the holy Swords we already know, much like Excalibur)


See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_swords#Swords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_swords#Swords)
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Remy Sinclair on April 24, 2011, 06:32:35 PM
Quote from: darkfire14 on April 04, 2011, 07:18:38 PM
The Knights of the Cross are pretty interesting in my opinion, but they also have a large problem as well. There are supposedly only three holy swords, two of which eventually fell into Dresden's hands and were never redistributed. First of all, WHY IN HELL would the church even allow Dresden to keep such relics? Wouldn't they want to take them and redistribute them immediately to worthy successors. There is no time for these swords to sit around idle, when there is a constant war to fight against evil.

Secondly, just THREE SWORDS in the entire world? Come on, there are numerous legends of TONS of other holy swords. What about the sword of Jenne D'arc for instance? She's a canonized saint who performed miracles on the battlefield, so don't tell me her blade wouldn't be a holy relic comparable to the swords that the Knights of the Cross wield.

Honestly, can only THREE SWORDS make a difference in the ENTIRE WORLD! Definitely shows the church doesn't care enough to fight evil if they depend on only three people to be their champions, while the regular priests just give their weak ass prayers and hope to make the world a better place. So SHOULD there be more than three holy swords in the Dresdenverse?

Well when I ran my game, I kept the 3 Swords of the Knights of the Cross, however, I did not have them be the only holy weapons in my game. This was a change I made. Some ideas I got were from threads here in the DFRPG others made as well as my personal ideas as well.

Yes, for the Knights of the Cross there are only 3 Swords, each sword was made with one of the nails that pierced Christ on the Cross. Now you could also have Holy Weapons like that made from the Apostles who were crucified as well. What about the Lance of Longinus which was the lance that pierced Christ's side?

But what of the Archangels? Some have had people wield their weapons in history as well and some beliefs Saints like Joan of Arc carried the sword of St. Michael. The Roman Catholic Church is but one faith but not the only ones fighting the evil that is out there. And why does it have to be a Christian Holy Weapon?

Some people have had designs of people carrying weapons of other good gods like Thor for instance as well.

Someone here mentioned reading The Warrior in Side Jobs and that is good idea, because Harry says some of the same things you are saying. Jim answers part of it but not all of it. There are still things Harry (and the readers) still need to learn about the Dresdenverse.

There is a story of a Fourth Nail at least according to Gypsy Legend. In the story there was suppose to be four nails that pierced Christ, but before the Romans nailed Christ to the Cross a young Gypsy boy stole one of the nails. In doing so lessened Christ's suffering and the Gypsies because of their kindness of stealing that nail no longer are considered sinning when stealing.

But that nail never pierced Christ so I do not know if you want to say it was Enchanted or not, but that is a legend to use.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: bobjob on April 24, 2011, 08:23:02 PM
I've just introduced a new sword into my game using the legend of the 4th nail. I've called it Pietacchius, the Sword of Piety. In the lore of my world, each of the swords is associated with an archangel and this one is associated with Uriel, which is also why I've been calling it the hidden blade. It is only made available when things are truly dire. In my version of Austin, Uriel has tasked the player with guarding a newly minted Ley Node that that was created when a skinwalker shaman attempted to reawaken the spirit of the Earth. I'm treating it like the Buffy Hellmouth in Sunny Vale, it's a slowly expanding node of magical power not associated with any ley lines and now all of the supernatural world wants control of it and are heading to Austin.

Since in the Dresden lore each of the wielders of a sword is descended from nobility, the wielder in my game is a descendant of the first Gypsy who kept the 4th nail, thus making the fourth nail possible. 
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Silverblaze on April 24, 2011, 08:26:31 PM
I think items of power and holy relics should be rare but not constrained to three.  As far as a game world goes, that would be too restrictive.  Novel wise, unless the legend of the fourth nail comes up, I'm betting there are less holy relics than in most games or the "forces of good" wouldn't be playing catch up, so much as supression.

I think a 4th sword fo the cross is viable in games.  I think many historic weapons, holy or not are often thematically appropriate.

I think going overboard is likely a bad idea too, but that varies by palyer/GM taste and from game to game so as opinionated as I am...who am I to say really?

I pose another question along these lines.  Since a sword can be unmade and in theory reforged... what if a nail was put into another weapon (likely melee)?  Would it still work or are swords so linked to angels that only swords would work?

Aspect:
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Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Mr. Ghostbuster on April 25, 2011, 02:25:48 AM
Nah, the fourth nail was worked into the metal of the first minigun and given to Chuck Norris.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Ren on April 26, 2011, 12:35:33 AM
There are indeed many a holy weapons of various faiths scattered across the world, heck In my game I introduced a fragment of Poseidon's Trident! If you want to have a justification to have more swords with the same powers as the Swords of the Cross, well there are all of those fragments of the true cross floating around that were soaked in the blood, no doubt those could have been turned into any variety of weapons with similar powers.
As a note related to the 4th Nail, I finally got to use that idea in my game and part of the story revolved around the fact that the weapon that was built around it was seeped in the untapped potential, the unlimited possibility of what it COULD become. It had a power that would allow it to kill ANYTHING but could only do that once and that death, as well as the intent of the wielder, would shape the sword's destiny.  I set them up with several really hard choices to determine its ultimate fate.
1- Kill Simon Magus who had been cursed by St. Peter 2000+ Years ago with a body that could not die, but could never fully heal so he was in constant agony. Doing so would essentially turn the Sword if the 4th Nail into the 4th Sword of the Cross. However the sword would then be useless in an upcoming battle they would need it for.
2- Kill an ancient body-hopping Vampiric Spirit that could not otherwise be killed. That would however turn the blade to Evil as it would then become the Sword of the Blackened Cross and be wielded by a newly-appointed Knight of Hell, though he would be obligated to assist them in the final battle. 
3- Kill someone they new who has been suffering from amnesia until recently but was ultimately revealed to be an Angel who had been cast out, but not fallen. Killing her would turn the sword to the very specific task of Killing Denarians, permanently.
There was a lot of back and forth about what they should do and some other suggestions of who they could kill but ultimately went with option #3 as the least of the evil choices...though the long-term effects have yet to be determined. But its a sword stained with an Angel's Blood...what could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Set Abominae on April 26, 2011, 01:10:57 AM
Personally I keep it to three since Faith, Hope, and Love are a specific thematic device taken from the bible and thus germane to the swords; specifically 1 Corinthians 13:13: "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." However the King James translation has it as "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity", so I suppose you could make a case for a fourth Sword of Charity. Call it Caritasacchius perhaps. However it should be noted that in Christian theology, agapē (love) and caritas (charity) are often seen as the same/interchangeable, especially in regards to the divine. That's why so many different bible translations have either charity or love quoted in the verse.

Make of that what you will.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Save_vs_DM on April 27, 2011, 06:44:10 AM
Quote from: Archmage_Cowl on April 22, 2011, 11:32:12 PM
that durendal write up is pretty sweet! would you mind posting the cost for it's individual abilities? I know holy is a -1 but other than that i figure it's better to try and get it from the source before i try and come up with my own lol
Well, I mostly eyeballed it but here's how I broke it down in my head and on paper. I've found that with unique Items of Power you really just have to go with your gut.

Armor of Faith. -2. Armor 2 is equal to 4 shifts of effect and a single stunt can give you 2 shifts of effect against a narrowly defined subset. I felt that supernaturally evil creatures was sufficiently narrow (as it really only works against Ghouls, Vampires, and Denarians). When I was making the weapon I saw this as equivalent to a +1 to attack.

Divine Purpose. I count this as a +1 rebate for the weapon, as it's very clearly a restriction.

Hidden from the Unworthy.  -1 and pretty solid for that cost. This was also added more for flavor than for potency. I wanted a reason to explain why it hadn't been used much at all.

Holy. -1, as you said above.

Lay Low the Wicked. -2 and well worth it at this cost. I figured that being able to temporarily counter one power was roughly equal in power to Channeling, with a fate point expenditure taking the place of stress.

It’s a Sword - No cost, of course. The item has to be something, after all.

Unbreakable - Also no cost, as all items of power come with this by default.
Title: Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
Post by: Archmage_Cowl on April 29, 2011, 02:06:11 AM
Thanks for posting those! I like the idea and make up of this sword so I showed it to one of my players and they keep looking at it greedily. I think i know what they are going to want soon lol ;)