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Messages - Cozarkian

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196
Harry needed an invitation. Corpstaker needed one as well when he was a ghost at least he told so to the fomor servitor but if I remember correctly after he ate all those ghosts he could possess Butters without one.

After he ate all the ghosts he could manifest a body and do the eye-contact spirit swap with Butters. Butters jumped into the manifested body but didn't have the ability to maintain the manifestation.

Not when he first jumped into Mort and threw up a shield he didn't, he did get booted out within a few seconds though.

I thought Harry accidentally landed in Mort, and Mort basically grabbed him, used Harry to throw up a shield, then booted him out. That gave Harry enough knowledge to realize later that he could possess Molly (with permission) and use his magic through her.

197
Kinda like Mort does?

I'm not sure Mort can draw them in. It looked like ghosts basically automatically possess someone whenever they occupy the same space. Since Mort is a powerful ectomancer, he basically reverses the possession and takes control of the ghost. I don't recall him drawing a ghost in from across the room, but since he can see the ghost, he can basically possess it as easily as it can possess him.

Harry possessed Molly too, but rather than taking forcible control of her body he asked permission. Corpsetaker's ability was essentially leaving her body, possessing another individual, and then kicking the old spirit out. I would have been curious to see a Mort v. Corpsetaker fight. Corpsetaker's power seemed to depend mostly on mental magic, but that doesn't mean ectomancy isn't involved and/or wouldn't be superior for that use.

198
DF Reference Collection / Re: List of Headaches [CD spoilers]
« on: January 22, 2013, 10:04:25 PM »
I'm currently thinking that Mab hasn't altered Harry's memories, like we thought.  I think it was the Parasite, who I think is Lash.  I think Mab and Lash have been working together longer than we thought.

Oh, I really, really like that. First, it would explain why the WG interfered to help restore Harry's memories. Second, it would dispose of neuro's conspiracy theory about Mab tricking Harry into a false belief that he can resist by disposing of the evidence he uses for arguing Mab can safely tamper with Harry's memories. Third, it provides a link between the SmF and Turn Coat headaches that would suggest Lash, not Mab, might be responsible for keeping Harry from using LC. Finally, it would tie in the SmF "cheats" with the theory about Uriel restoring Lash. I believe the headaches start before Harry uses Soulfire. Thus, Uriel could have restored Lash to Harry in response to the capturing of Marcone (first cheat) and then nudged him to activate the Soulfire in response to the attempt to capture Ivy (second cheat).

199
CD Book Club / Re: Cold Days Book Club - Chapters 16-30 **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« on: December 28, 2012, 04:25:03 PM »
Tbh, I found Demonreach a bit much. I can see it being a prison, maybe with a god, a naagloshii or two, and a bunch of lower level beings, but six naagloshii, as the least of the prisoners? I think there's something seriously wrong with the scale, unless Jim's retroactively hitting Shagnasty with the badass decay hammer.

I don't know, the naagloshii was losing the fight to a single WC wizard. Compare that to the Merlin - who can build a prison simultaneously at five different times, Mab - who could take on the entire WC by herself outside of Winter, and Mother Winter - who is more powerful than Mab. I'd say there is a lot of breathing room for worse than a naagloshii.

200
DF Reference Collection / Re: Series Spanning Plot Threads
« on: November 19, 2012, 07:25:45 PM »
Stone Table

The stone table is actually part of a larger theme regarding the consumption of others' power. We see this in SK (stone peril), GP (Kravos), DB (darkhallow) and GS (eating other spirits). I'd also say it applies to Lea's collection of hounds and to what we've seen of the Fomor.

201
DF Reference Collection / Re: Series Spanning Plot Threads
« on: November 16, 2012, 10:05:10 PM »
I thought the quacker had tied them to a similar headache associated with Mab's Memory mod involving his fire magic, thus tying them to the "tarp" over LC.

The quacker's theory is that JB used a tarp to provide a clue that Mab was the source of both headaches. The first time because she removed Harry's memories of fire magic, the second time because she removed his memories of LC. Even if this theory is correct, the headaches were not continuous - they first series stopped in SmF and the second started pre-TC.

202
DF Reference Collection / Re: Series Spanning Plot Threads
« on: November 16, 2012, 07:17:23 PM »
I'm thinking of labling this thread "Harry Fights for Rehabilitation & Empowerment" (HFfR&E)

That works for me.

The Hand burn is significant.  I've been tossing around how to include it, but the thing is, I have already written up a great reference about Harry's Power Ups, that does a great job of emphasizing the significance of that event... I think I might add a reference to that topic near the top of this reference and let it serve as the reference for any events that touch on Harry's power as a thread in and of itself.

I agree the hand burn is significant. Harry seems to get power ups in two forms - increased assets (Bob, Lasciel's coin, soulfire, sanctum invocation, mom's pendant, WK mantle) and more significantly from patching weaknesses. The hand burn is an example of the latter, where Harry is putting his experience to use to improve his skills. It belongs in a category with improving veils from teaching Molly, the use of dual elements, learning to build stronger foci, and becoming less dependent on foci. Personally, I think this latter type of power up is more significant because it represents the growth of Harry as a character.

The hand burn is also significant for another reason - it highlights Mavra as one of Harry's most dangerous opponents. Many of Harry's enemies are just doing their own thing and Harry gets in the way, but Mavra actually takes the time to study Harry and learn his weaknesses. There are only a few other instances where enemies have tried to do that. Bianca showed some understanding of Harry in PG (but could have been coached by Mavra) but she ultimately proved she didn't truly understand him when she tried to trade for Susan's life. Nicodemus has demonstrated an even better understanding of Harry, but ultimately underestimated Harry (he didn't expect Harry to actually defeat and change Lasciel's shadow - although to be fair, I'm not sure anyone would). Mavra has arguably been the most successful in understanding and manipulated Harry (she burned his hand, escaped with incriminating photos and successfully blackmailed him later). Lea and Marcone should also be considered, although they are quasi-allies, while Mavra thus far appears to be pure enemy.

203
DF Reference Collection / Re: Series Spanning Plot Threads
« on: November 16, 2012, 04:58:53 PM »
Wow, awesome effort Serack.

I'd like to propose a revision to the "Morgan's animosity" in the Storm Front section. That's actually just a subset of possibly the single most important theme we've seen so far - Harry's different moral outlook than the Wouncil.

Harry, Eb, LtW and Rashid all believe in the possibility of rehabilitation for young wizards that have made one or two mistakes. This puts them directly in conflict with the views of other members of the Wouncil, notably the Merlin and Morgan. Harry goes even further than Eb and actually expresses the belief that the Wouncil has a responsibility to identify and educate young talent regarding the Laws of Magic before they have a chance to become warlocks.

This theme is introduced in SF with Harry's background and directly reoccurs in PG with the story of Molly and appears to be a major theme of GS (both Molly and the sorcerer's gang). It's also explored in Dead Beat with Harry's use of necromancy and in the characters of Cowl and Kumori. It's hinted that Maggie Sr. shared Harry's opinion that the Wouncil is shirking its responsibilities toward minor talents, which means this theme may reoccur when the mystery surrounding Harry's mother is explained (it's potentially what drove her to the Fae and/or Black Council). Harry's differences in opinion are what cause him to let Elaine go free in SK, it's partially responsibility for his involvement in WN, and it's what encourages him to help set up the Paranet so the minor talents can protect themselves where the Wouncil has failed. Finally, the answer as to whether Harry is right regarding the ability to rehabilitate emerging Warlocks is rooted in another core theme of the book - free will.

I'd write it like this:

Harry v. White Council
  • Rehabilitation of Warlocks
  • White Council's responsibilities toward new and/or minor talents
  • Morgan's animosity toward Harry
  • Morality of necromancy

204
DF Reference Collection / Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« on: November 06, 2012, 10:07:42 PM »
Not if what the Gatekeeper is seeing is a finite set of possible futures, from which he can select one by an exercise of his free will, but which, once selected, are then deterministic absent other acts of free will.  Which is a model that I think fits as well with what we know about time travel, and from Uriel about most humans using free will rather rarely, as any other.

That's not time travel then. He's not going against the flow of time and he's not changing the past, he's just guiding the future. The problem of course is then the Gatekeeper practically becomes the master of time and the single most powerful individual in the entire universe. Unless there is some strange reason his perfect knowledge of all possible futures is limited to specific events. Even then, given the importance of those apparent events, he would be way more powerful than JB has ever hinted.

How many of those very powerful entities have free will, though ? In the precise significant sense that humans have it, rather than the "I do what I am supposed to or I become Lucifer the Second" sense that Uriel does

See, that's exactly what I mean. Now the Gatekeeper has absolutely no peers because not only does he have the same knowledge of all the other powerful entities, he's the only one with the free will to actually control outcomes as he sees fit. It's not even a competition, now, Gatekeeper can wipe the floor with Uriel, Mab, Ferrovax, Drakul.

And all of those outcomes are deducible from a full knowledge of the state of all the cards at the beginning of the game plus sufficient intelligence.

Yes, but you don't know which result you will get. x - 2 - 2 = 0 always results in x = 4, no matter what order you perform the steps, the outcome of solitaire however, is not predetermined, only the possible outcomes are.

If information from the future were changeable to that extent, why all the careful working around the possibility of paradox ?

Precisely because the future is changeable. If it wasn't changeable paradox would be impossible and it would never be a concern.

Your logic there feels to be skipping over some steps in the assessment.

Sorry, I think I touched on the missing information in some of my earlier posts, but didn't flesh it out here. Basically, let's call the accident as a means of delay as plan A. There was a lot of intervening time between the accident and the use of LC, which leaves a lot of time for someone else to screw up the plan. I think any entity savy enough to design plan A would also be able to design plans B - Z (one of which is manipulating the time of Molly's phone call). Plans B - Z would all have less intervening time, increasing the odds of the plan being successful because other entities would have less of an opportunity to interfere. Thus, because Plan A is comparatively easier for someone else to defeat, Harry's benefactor would have used a different plan. Thus, I believe the car accident was unrelated and someone actually did use a different plan (specifically, someone influenced when Molly would call).

Perhaps.

Perhaps, alternatively, Lash is thinking the same way I read Mab as thinking at the end of GS; that the best way to lull Harry into a false sense of security, and to successfully manipulate him longer term, is to give the impression of trying to manipulate him in some less subtle way and failing.

I would accept that if PG had just been written. However, hindsight and WoJ clearly indicate that Lash actually changed, which in turn suggests the key moments where we saw Lash being perplexed by Harry (such as in PG) were actually key moments where Lash was being changed by Harry's perspective.

I am sorry, i am totally failing to parse how you derive that from my suggestion.  Could you expand on your logic here.

Will she ?  Or will applying pressure every time only incline him to balk whenever she suggests anything at all ?

Basically, I think Lash's behavior in WN and Dead Beat are generally consistent and that her behavior in PG by secretly fixing LC would be an outlier. I don't think her actions are consistent with a strategy of not applying pressure whenever she has sufficient leverage. Honestly, I could be wrong, because I can't clearly recall every conversation/negotiation that Harry and Lash have.

Interestingly, I notice that I am arguing against both Gatekeeper and Lash as the entity that fixed LC. It would seem likely either you don't think Gatekeeper arranged the accident or that you don't think Lash knew about the flaw in LC. Of course, the two arguments aren't necessarily inconsistent (Lash could have known about the flaw but Gatekeeper fixed it), but it does make me wonder if you actually believe everything you are arguing.

Also, one other thought. WoJ tells us it would take the whole White Council to defeat Mab outside of Winter. Rashid is a member of the White Council. We've also seen some of the other members of the Wouncil are very powerful. Thus, we can infer Rashid isn't nearly as powerful as Mab and by extension isn't nearly as powerful as her peer, Uriel. Since it would take a creature with the knowledge level of Uriel to enact plan A, and since Rashid is not as powerful as Uriel, I believe it is unlikely that he could have so perfectly set up the crash.

205
DF Reference Collection / Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« on: November 05, 2012, 09:21:53 PM »
No argument there.

I would argue that everything you list can be answered by him looking at the future for the information in question.  He doesn't have to insure the accident causes the right amount of damage if he can look at the accident, see how much damage it causes, and direct harry into the situation accordingly.

Not causing a paradox because of seeing that that's the way things worked out ?

There is a logical fallacy here. Part of your argument depends on the future being fixed and part of it depends on the future being changeable. If the future can be changed such that Gatekeeper can prevent Harry from using LC at the wrong time, then Gatekeeper can't look in the future and see exactly how much damage occurred from the accident, because that future could also be changed.

Considering the sort of power levels Mouse is showing in later books, I can well see Rashid erring on the side of caution with regard to Mouse's presence.

I can too, but only because I don't think Gatekeeper is nearly as powerful as he would have to be to be the source of the LC fix.

For what it's worth, I think the most likely explanation for who actually fixed LC is somebody persuading or magically compelling Murphy or Thomas to use their keys to get through Harry's wards; I can see either Murphy or Thomas being persuadable on "if LC is not fixed harry will kill himself with it" grounds, but it takes Rashid or someone who is getting information from someone with at least Rashid levels of foreknowledge to know there's an issue in the first place. 

Interesting theory with a nice synergy to the Thomas was home theory.

Oh, I am sure there is.  I'm less sure that the consequences of that competition will ever be unambiguously overt.
The point is, if Harry's benefactor was depending on the accident to cause the perfect amount of delay, that plan leaves a lot of wiggle room for something to go wrong. Given there are multiple very powerful entities that might use that time to ruin the plan, it is far too risky for someone to use the accident as a delay mechanism, and if the benefactor could be certain the plan couldn't be ruined even by his peers, then there is no competition at all, because the outcome is inevitable.

I'm not sure I'm buying that one; the end of a game of solitaire is a maths problem if you have perfect knowledge of where all the cards are, but it can still generate dramatic tension along the way, and given that we're getting the story through Harry, I can get quite enough tension out of Harry not knowing where things are going in the end regardless of whether Uriel does actually know to the last decimal place or not.
Unlike a math proof, solitaire has multiple different outcomes depending on how the game is played. It's possible none of them will result in victory or for there to be different paths to victory.


You keep talking about the putative plan here as if it were "set all these factors going that will interact in complicated unpredictable ways", and that is not what I am suggesting it is, which makes me feel like we are talking past each other.  I am talking about a situation where the Gatekeeper as seen that if he does certain things Harry will, with absolute certainty, end up in the right place at the right time.  Zero possibility of error.  It looks fluid to Harry because from his perspective it's the future, but the Gatekeeper can see a point at which it has already happened, and is therefore, given the right start conditions, one hundred per cent reliable.

I'd argue that they can be if you can look into the future and see in advance what value those variables have.

No argument there, but I'm not seeing evidence for any other such player doing so in PG.

Yes, this highlights my problem with your theory. It isn't possible for Gatekeeper to look into the future and know with zero possibility of error what will happen. Such knowledge would require either that the future is unchangeable (which would mean he couldn't change the future to save Harry in the first place) or he would have to have perfect knowledge of how every other entity of his power or equal is going to act. The mere possibility that another player might act to ruin his plan would prevent him from using a plan that leaves so much time for someone else to step in and interfere. In order for Gatekeeper to have 100% confidence, he would have to be so powerful it would be impossible for any of the other players to interfere.

Easing him into using something really rather powerful without the degree of thinking through its dangers than he otherwise might ?
If that was the goal she could have not revealed how dangerous she was by threatening him with illusions. She would have been better served just to let him use it with nothing more than a quick plea and offer to help protect him if he picks up the coin.

Which is why it makes sense to me that Lash would do it in PG, after being confronted in DB with precisely how stubborn Harry is and what extremes it takes to get him to ask her help, and as an element in the same strategy of corruption involved in his anger-management issues in pg and WN, which also do not involve him asking for her help.

Again, I flat-out do not believe that assertion. She tried that strategy in DB with innocent lives at risk and saw the limits to how much it would work.

So she tries a strategy, gives up on it when an even better opportunity arises, then returns to the same strategy (in WN) she previously abandoned? I doubt it. Lasciel plays long-term. She'll apply the pressure every time an opportunity arises until eventually a situation arises where Harry will take the bait.

206
DF Reference Collection / Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« on: November 05, 2012, 08:09:55 PM »
I don't see how you get from "he didn't know about Demonreach" to "he can't have known about LC".

Gatekeeper would need to know a lot more than just the existence of LC to set up the accident-delay plan. He would need to know LC has a flaw, that Harry will use LC in response to his message to look for black magic, and that Harry will receive a phone call from Molly at <time>. Then, he would need to know exactly how much time Harry will spend preparing to use LC in order to devise a means to delay Harry long enough to make sure he can't use LC before the phone rings, but not so long that Harry doesn't make it home in time to accept the call. Selecting an accident as his method, Gatekeeper needs to find a way to insure the accident causes just enough damage to make sure Harry can't drive home without injuring Harry and would need a method for determining precisely the amount of time he will be delayed by the cops (including Murphy). That is an awful lot of knowledge. Thus, the fact that Gatekeeper incorrectly predicted the outcome in TC because of a lack of knowledge about Demonreach being Harry's sanctum is strong evidence that the Gatekeeper also lacked the knowledge to set up the accident as a delay.

Here's another problem with the accident-as-delay theory. Why didn't Harry's benefactor cause the accident and then immediately go fix LC? They even could have disconnected Harry's phone to prevent the interrupting phone cal. Why wait until sometime after Molly calls and before Harry needs to use LC to find her? Granted there are possible explanations (e.g. the fix occurred while Bob was gone and the benefactor couldn't have fixed it earlier because Bob/Mouse was still there), but it adds yet another complication to theory. Do we really think the Gatekeeper can secretly access Harry's apartment and fix LC but that he can't find a way to do it while Bob/Mouse are there?

I'd note that the car-bomb in WN is, i think, not confirmed as having anything to do with the plot of that book, so it's not impossible mysterious random killer strikes twice in two adjacent books.

I'd have to read WN again to discuss this in detail, to see if there is some tie we missed, and I don't have time to do that. Even if it is a case of random killer strikes twice in two adjacent books, it would still make sense if something in PG set those events in motion and the attack in WN arises from those events, rather than just being entirely random.


Indeed, we could be Occamian and suspect Uriel of that intervention.
Yeah, I've seen the Uriel did it theory passed around. I reject it largely because it doesn't fit Uriel's M.O. of using tools rather direct action and there is also no evidence of a prior cheat. I realize we have differing opinions on Uriel, but I don't think we need to get into those here, because you are arguing for Gatekeeper, not Uriel, and I don't think Gatekeeper has the same level of knowledge as Uriel. Uriel, for example, probably knew about the Sanctum invocation.


Some of us believe it is already that to a large extent; that Harry's free will is all the more significant for being a thing he uses really rather infrequently.

Not to be too reductionist here, it is ultimately going to be a series of novels in linear text with only one endpoint, so there are levels at which I do not find that metaphor inapt.
There is definitely evidence that greater powers are warring to use Harry as their pawn. The point is, if there are so many powers all try to use them, there ought to at least be competition where they can interfere with each other's plans. If the eventual outcome is already defined and their competing efforts are futile to change it, then it's a math problem, not a story. The difference is, the math equation only has one solution regardless of whether you know it or not, while the ending of a story is subject to change until it is actually written, regardless of how unlikely it might be too change.

Also, Harry might use his free will infrequently, but the case books are the situations where he is using free will, so those are the situations where a person can't rely on a complicated accident-delay plan when simpler methods are available. The difference between a novel and a mathematical proof is that a mathematical proof always only has one endpoint regardless of whether you know what that is. A novel doesn't become definite until after it is written


At a telling-a-good-story level, given that Jim has explicitly introduced characters who have the degree of ability to out-think a human angels have, it would seem inconsistent and unconvincing to me for any that are interested in Haryy not to mostly be able to play him much better than he knows or can see coming.

Better than Harry sees coming, yes, but not perfectly and not without the possibility that other players might ruin their plans. They control Harry by predicting his emotional responses. Less emotional choices like "Do I call a cab, ask Murphy for a ride, walk, etc...." are harder to predict and can't be relied upon in setting up a plan. That's why the accident-delay doesn't work, because you don't really know how Harry will choose to get home. I also doubt you can accurately predict the precise amount of damage he will sustain in an accident that is serious enough the cops suspect it was an intentional attack.


OK, from a meta-story perspective ?

PG seems to me to be notably different from all the preceding books in terms of how standalone it is.  A larger proportion of the significant players are people we've met before, and it's the first one where rather than there being a couple of loose ends, the ending is Harry explicitly acknowledging he doesn't have a clue about what was really going on at the centre of events.  From an Aristotelian point of view, the eight book of planned twenty-plus-three is the transition between Beginning and Middle, and the differences I mention above fit with that.  So if there was going to be a book for which "here is a random snippet of arc plot that could technically fit anywhere" was appropriate, PG seems like the best one to me.

That makes sense, but rather than just "introduce random snippet of arc plot" here, it makes even more sense to introduce that random snippet by tying it into the plot of PG.


I'm inclined to think, considering how on-the-ball and well informed Rashid is in SK, that there's something specifically about Demonreach that is throwing him off in TC, rather than that TC is a reasonable standard for judging his degree of clued-in in general.  And he has specified he will not set foot on the island.

That's a good rebuttal theory. However, if Demonreach can put a blind spot in Gatekeeper's knowledge, I would think some of the other players in PG could do the same. Gatekeeper doesn't appear to be on quite the same level as Uriel and Mab and I think there is still too many things that could have happened between the accident and phone call for the Gatekeeper to have engineered a perfect delay. Honestly, I don't think Mab could have managed that either. Finally, anyone who could have done it could also have found a simpler way to do it.


Indeed. If the object of the exercise is to corrupt Harry's judgement without him knowing it - as witness the anger issues Murphy calls him on in WN, which are already showing in PG (where he concentrates on roasting the Giger-Alien fetch rather than stopping to help one of its victims, whom he then realises he might have been able to save if he'd acted differently).  It fits that pattern.

How exactly does secretly fixing LC corrupt Harry's judgment without Harry realizing it? Not fixing it and or fixing it just enough for Harry to survive would teach Harry that refusing Lash's offer to help him if he picks up the coin cost Molly her life. Secretly fixing it doesn't given Harry any reason to seek Lash's help in the future.


The latter only works if she assumes Harry will be dispassionately rational about accepting her help, which he won't, because a) he has a pretty strong conviction that accepting help from Fallen will have long-term bad effects, and b) given a), Harry being Harry is going to be extreme ends of stubborn about it.

Yeah, Harry does have pretty strong convictions about not accepting help from Fallen. That's why Lasciel needs to wait for ideal situations to offer her aid. Knowing Harry, the perfect such situation would be one where he needs Lasciel's help not to save himself, but to save the life of someone else. In other words, Harry's need to help Molly is the precise type of moment when he is most susceptible to temptation. If Lasciel had any bargaining chip to play in that situation (knowledge of the flaw) she would have played it. Instead, she appealed only to his self-interest to stay alive and the general fear that LC was a dangerous and unready spell.

207
DF Reference Collection / Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« on: November 05, 2012, 06:52:32 PM »
No Harry isn't dumb, but he is a stubborn idiot especially when he's already made up his mind.

He was going to use LC, but he isn't so stubborn that he wouldn't give her a chance to prove the flaw existed so he could fix it. His goal is to save Molly, not kill himself. So he's going to investigate if she claims to have knowledge that would help him save Molly without dying.

Lash also isn't stupid enough to waste time using illusions to stop Harry when she already knows that it won't work and Harry will do it anyway.

She doesn't know Harry will do it anyway. In fact, she is completely flabbergasted to discover that Harry is essentially willing to commit suicide for a small chance that he might save Molly. That scene is actually one of the key moments in showing why Lash changes. She didn't believe someone like Harry could exist, someone who is willing to try to help others even when the likely outcome is that he fails and dies as a result. It's what makes Lash start to think Harry might be worth saving. Without the PG events, Lash wouldn't have chosen self-sacrifice in WN.

Lash has the ability to completely stop Harry from doing anything see Turn Coat where Nico fully expected Lash to be able to completely neuter Harry.

Temporary paralysis and altering his perceptions (illusions and the time-warp thing) are likely significantly easier than forcing Harry to take physical or magical actions or from affecting the world outside of Harry. We've never seen her ability to do that. Also, I'm sure Harry would be able to fight and break her effort to stop him completely. It might have been long enough for Nico's purposes, but Harry would win that mental fight eventually. Point of fact, we also only actually know that Nico thought it was possible for Lash to stop Harry completely. Harry's prior battles with Lash, including locking her away in his mind, might have already trained him enough to fight that.

Making Harry think he's fighting illusions and winning while using his body to fix LC is no harder then making Harry fight illusions.
Then why is Harry absolutely amazed when Ivy can simultaneously cast different spells? Using magic requires focus and it's difficult to focus so completely on multiple tasks at once. There is no way Lash could focus on fixing LC and keeping Harry unaware of it and making Harry see illusions despite his active attempts to resist it.

Lash even told Harry he was going to die and the model was going to blow up and Harry didn't care he was going to do it anyway. Even even threatened to do it while she was mucking around with his concentration.
Right, and if she knew about the flaw she would have gone that one step further and told him "I'm not guessing, I've seen a flaw and you will die, but I can help you fix it, for a price." Clearly, she wasn't holding back in trying to stop him from using LC, so why would she hold back the one piece of information that would be almost certain to at least make him take a moment to reduce his chance of death?

Lash was able to accelerate Harry's brain, block mental attacks and has advanced magical knowledge that goes back to the begining of time.
Lash even knows the how and why Harry can hurt Outsiders with magic.

All of those are internalized uses of magic and personal knowledge that provide very little to no evidence that she could fix LC or force Harry to fix it. Further, they are not evidence that she even understands how to fix LC. There are lots of powerful and old Wizards who are far more knowledgeable than Luccio, yet only she knew how to make Warden swords. Just because Lasciel has lots of ancient magical knowledge that Harry lacks, building LC could still be one are of magic that he actually knows more about than Lasciel.

Lash actively keeps Harry from finding out what she can and can not do, because every time Harry learns these things its one less effective tool in her tool box.

No she doesn't. She frequently helps him voluntarily in hopes that he will become more and more dependent upon using her and eventually agree to pick up the coin.

208
DF Reference Collection / Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« on: November 05, 2012, 05:57:54 PM »
Actually Lash wouldn't tell Harry, because he wouldn't have believed her. Harry would have seen her attempt to warn him about the flaw as another ploy to get him to take up the coin.

Harry isn't dumb. He wouldn't just ignore Lash. He'd bargain or try to force her to give him enough information so he (or Bob) could verify the existence of the flaw. Then he would bargain or try to force Lash to show him how to fix it (if he or Bob couldn't figure it out themselves). Either way, Lash still gains more because Harry learns that she has power/knowledge that can help him successfully perform magic that will save lives (in this case Molly's).

She also had plenty of time while using the illusions to slow him down.

So Lash is so powerful she can hit Harry with illusions while simultaneously fixing LC (or causing Harry to unknowingly fix LC while fighting the illusions) and yet there are no other instances in the story where she comes close to displaying that kind of power? I'm not even convinced there is enough evidence that Lash could have fixed LC while Harry was unconscious. There certainly isn't enough to suggest she could fix it without his knowledge while actively fighting him for control of his perceptions.

It still comes down to her being the only being that knew about LC, could fix it and was present.

What evidence do you have that she could fix it, or even knew it needed to be fixed?


Mab has already answered the question about her replacement choice if Harry died.
She would recruit Thomas to be her Winter Knight instead...

Mab also went through a great deal of effort in GS to make sure she didn't have to pick Thomas as Winter Knight instead. Fixing LC would be significantly less effort.

209
DF Reference Collection / Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« on: November 05, 2012, 05:46:04 PM »
There are two possibilities for the accident:

1. Someone was trying to hurt Harry.
2. Someone was trying to save Harry from using LC before the phone call.

If #1 is correct, then we have the follow up question, why put a mysterious and random attempt to hurt Harry in PG rather than any other book? Here we have 3 possibilities - a) It was an attempt by someone who isn't normally in Chicago, so that was their only opportunity, b) it was specifically designed to try to keep Harry from interfering with the events in PG or c) PG is just as good as any other book for a random, mysterious accident and JB needed an excuse for Harry to talk to Murphy, so it was convenient to use in PG. Notably, it could also be any combination of any of the above.

With #2, we introduce a character whose level of knowledge of future events and ability to manipulate Harry and the future are at least equal to Uriel. It turns the entire themes of the Dresden Files on its head. Rather than being a story about Harry and free will, it's a story about godlike entities who can control everything Harry does. And since they all have such perfect knowledge, it isn't even a chess game where one godlike entity might outmaneuver another, because they already know who will win in the end, so it is really just a complex math equation that only has a single proof.

Okay, forget the boring story aspect of #2, there is a better reason the accident wouldn't just be a delay tactic. From a Doylist perspective, it adds absolutely nothing to the story. Imagine this scene of events: Gatekeeper warns Harry, Harry drives home and prepares to use LC, just before he finishes using LC, the phone mysteriously rings. Tada, JB could tell the exact same story without ever using an accident. It would have the exact same outcome and provide the exact same mystery (why did the phone ring at that precise moment?). The only benefit JB would get from setting up a complicated superentity plan to delay Harry by the precise amount of time needed is that JB has an opportunity to have Murphy and Harry talk without relying on a "random accident." I'm sure JB could have found some other explanation if that was his goal. Like maybe Murphy knocking on his door (instead of a phone call) and asking Harry why there is a girl named Molly at the station begging someone to call Harry Dresden instead of her parents.

Okay, onto specifics.

given Jim's response to being asked would we see Ace from SK again with querying whether we were sure we hadn't, it could as easily have been him and unrelated to the rest of the plot of PG entirely.

Sure, but if it was a random attempt by Ace, why put it in PG instead of another book? Likely the answer would be that Ace has some reason to try to keep Harry from being involved in the events of PG, a fact we will discovery later.

I am positing the Gatekeeper foreseeing exactly how the timing of the accident works, in terms of long enough a delay and not injuring Harry too severely, and then going forth and doing what he knows will get the desired result.    I think that works whether he's looking at a fixed future, or looking at a set of options and picking the one that does what he wants.

That is a heck of a lot of knowledge for a guy that in TC, didn't even realize that Harry had claimed Demonreach as Sanctum and incorrectly predicting that Harry's plan would fail and cause more damage than good. Maybe Gatekeeper is just a really good actor and his entire appearance was just an excuse to provide some obscur advice to Harry that would alter future events in the precise manner the Gatekeeper wanted, but I'm inclined to believe it shows the Gatekeeper is not as all-knowing as you argue he is.

I am wary of any argument based on the logic of how an entity noted even among Fallen for her deceptiveness is going to argue; I can equally well believe, for example, that her arguing against Harry using it but not mentioning the flaw is intended to stop him suspecting her having any knowledge of the flaw when he does find out about it.

To what gain? You think she secretly helps Harry and covers his tracks so he won't be angry that she secretly helped him, thereby insuring that Harry gets the benefit of having the coin without ever realizing the benefits he is receiving? That is a terrible way to manipulate someone. Instead, she could avoid Harry's anger by providing help, forcing Harry to realize that with her help he can accomplish far more good (saving Molly) than he can without your help. Which is a better lesson for Lasciel "You need help from a mysterious source that wasn't me in order to accomplish your goals" or "I can help you accomplish your goals?"


 

210
DF Reference Collection / Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« on: November 05, 2012, 04:50:19 PM »
Another thing to mention, is that even though LC was described as having a massive amount of power in it, that doesn't mean it would explode in a deafening blast, with concussive shock waves and such.  The "explosion" could have simply been a massive amount of concentrated fire, enough to flash fire the room and the whole building.   Or maybe the power would've come out in a magical method of destruction.   Remember Bob said the amount of power he had poured into it was roughly equivalent to the power in his fully charged Force Ring.   But it wasn't the same kind of magic.  The power he had pumped into it was one of seeking, investigation, discovery and revelation.  Not a kinetic asskicking spell.    Magic varies based on what type of power you are channeling and to what purpose, so just because the amount of power is equal to a ton of those force rings, doesn't mean it would manifest in the same way.   For all we know, the sympathetic link to Chicago made the power dissipate across the links, making all of Chicago slightly warmer for a fraction of a second.  Or maybe an odd flash of light, and a mild bang sound happened, something disregarded by the population.  Or maybe the fire simply dissipated it, fire is a cleansing force after all, magically speaking. 

Remember, just because a powerful spell is disrupted, doesn't mean it blows up.   Look at Harry when he destroyed the Great Circle trapping Ivy in Small Favor.   He made a point to explain just how much power was in that circle, and how even having just one thing out of place, could level a huge area.  Then what did he do?  He smashed it with his staff, destroying every aspect of that spell.   Did he blow up?  Did the spell site blow up?  Did Demonreach?  No, in fact, nothing negative happened until the very last vestige of the spell structure was destroyed, then the spell broke, and as I recall it was simply a bit of sound and light.  That's it.   Nothing negative or destructive happened, as evidenced by the fact that Ivy and the Heroes were all still alive, and standing at Ground Zero.   And I'd be willing to bet that the Great Circle to keep the Archive restrained, had more juice in it than LC.   So if that spell can be destroyed without leveling an island, I think LC can be burned out without leveling a city block.

Personally, when I talk about LC exploding, I don't really mean a physical explosion. The explosion is a backlash of magic that would fry Harry's brain, exactly like what happens when Cowl catches Harry tracking him with LC in a later book (except Harry had built an extra safeguard that saved him). LC itself might also be destroyed (I envision melting) but I see the destruction as being internalized to LC and the person trying to use it with very little, if any, external damage.

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