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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on June 04, 2010, 07:42:06 PM

Title: balance of sympathies
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on June 04, 2010, 07:42:06 PM
I'm kicking some stuff around for a rather complex setting, and I am wrestling with where the reader sympathy lies.

Ideally, I would want characters on either side of the central conflict, as close to equally sympathetic as possible.  I am not particularly interested in the story having a hero or a villain, let alone a hero defeating a villain; it's a complex issue where I want to explore questions rather than throw out simple answers.

Anyone got any thoughts on how best to balance the sympathy so the reader does not immediately jump to taking one side or the other ?  I'm aware there are some readers who would gravitate to one side or the other instantly and absolutely on principle in ways that are external to anything that can go in the text, and not thinking of those as an audience here; more interested in, if this could in theory work for you at all, what would make it work better ?

Any more general notions of what has worked well for you as a situation with a balance of sympathy on both sides of a question that avoiided collapsing into having simplistic goodies and baddies would also be appreciated here.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: neofyte on June 04, 2010, 08:54:01 PM
The danger in balance is tenable plot arc.  If you are shooting for reconciliation, great.  If you are aiming for a treatise on misunderstood intention causing catastrophe, well..you may end up with an epic read and re-read in literature classes for generations to come, but it may not make Amazon's top 500 =)

I intuit that you could pull off a fair examination of both sides of any given story better than most.  My peanut gallery points:

1. Character identification: a) Vulnerabilities - embedding the characters with weaknesses and idiosyncrasies that resonate with the reader - I love Gemmel's characters, if for no other reason.  Druss makes a dayamed good flawed hero.  b) Redeeming traits - surprisingly noble, stand up and be inspired, behavior from less desirable characters.

2. Mitigating background that puts otherwise untoward behavior into - if not a rational context - at least an understandable one.  Requoting Longfellow: If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we would find there enough sorrow and suffering to disarm all hostility.  The big mitigating forces being those very things over which the characters have zero control: circumstance, developmental neglect and/or abuse, genetic limitations or predispositions, and personal history forged over a lifetime which cast certain events into incontrovertible predictions - regardless of whether the perception is valid or no.  Self-fulfilling prophecy shades of the Montagues and Capulets, perhaps?

3. Ubuntu: For philosophical back story try Desmond Tutu's No future without forgiveness  He translates an ecosystem world view of the South African tribes into something like: 'What dehumanizes you dehumanizes me, to forgive isn't noble, it is the best form of self-interest'.  Permitting the plot arc to take you to short term victory that ends in long term suffering for the victor may support such a theme.

4. Dressing up familiar themes in new garb.  Lucas's rewrite of Taoism as the 'force' in the Star Wars universe is a good example.  A step further, though, for comparable sympathy rather than juxtapose ego against interconnectedness, just use the two compliments.  Yin and Yang, intended to be complimentary and both needing each other to be whole, but dissembled into antagonism, makes for a compelling conflict.

5. Shared stage time:  Perhaps overly obvious, but worth re-mentioning, equal narrative attention.  Human nature is easy sympathy, guided by propinquity.  But if we feel equally close to both sides?  Harder to take sides.

6. Competing priorities:  I rarely face life dilemmas between world changing good and apocalyptic evil.  I am defined much more by the common but subtle choices.  Plot arcs leading to choices between good and good, or good and maybe a little better, would lend a real life quality to the story if you could write it convincingly.

7. Rather than write archetypal characters, allow them to change and either grow or be subverted through the text.  Or even change their positions based on the acquisition of new information.

8. Do the same with the reader.  Lead the reader through various sympathy shifts before leveling the story field.  'Wait I like her, no him, no her."  :)

9.  Write to your strengths.  Help the reader challenge their own implicit assumptions.  To my mind this is your signature gift.

10. Don't over think it.  Rumi penned "people spend their lives stringing and unstringing their instruments.  They are always getting ready to live."  Your signature gift can be a compulsive weakness to flawlessness.
Just write and see what happens.  And whatever you do, don't write the epic that will be read and re-read.  Just write to write :)

If you ever decide to take on beta-readers, please add me to the applicant pool.

Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on June 04, 2010, 09:08:51 PM
Lots of good stuff here; where I'm not commenting it's because I agree without further issue.

The danger in balance is tenable plot arc.  If you are shooting for reconciliation, great.  If you are aiming for a treatise on misunderstood intention causing catastrophe, well..you may end up with an epic read and re-read in literature classes for generations to come, but it may not make Amazon's top 500 =)

I think Song of Ice and Fiire is an arguable counter to that last. fwiw.

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2. Mitigating background that puts otherwise untoward behavior into - if not a rational context - at least an understandable one.  Requoting Longfellow: If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we would find there enough sorrow and suffering to disarm all hostility.  The big mitigating forces being those very things over which the characters have zero control: circumstance, developmental neglect and/or abuse, genetic limitations or predispositions, and personal history forged over a lifetime which cast certain events into incontrovertible predictions - regardless of whether the perception is valid or no.  Self-fulfilling prophecy shades of the Montagues and Capulets, perhaps?

I'd kind of like not to have the story in question recapitulate the neverending freewill debate in the on-topic parts of this board, though.

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9.  Write to your strengths.  Help the reader challenge their own implicit assumptions.  To my mind this is your signature gift.

Thank you.

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Just write and see what happens.  And whatever you do, don't write the epic that will be read and re-read.  Just write to write :)

Average of three thousand words a week, nine weeks out of ten, for the past fourteen years. That bit I've got down.

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If you ever decide to take on beta-readers, please add me to the applicant pool.

Duly noted.

Fwiw, it seems worth mentioning an example of something in a direction similar to what I have in mind that did work really well for me:

Judge Dredd, the comic, has been running since 1977, and is set 122 years in the future, advancing in realtime.

There's been an ongoing thread over much of that time over the democracy movement in Mega-City One, where the Judges rule with an iron grip.  There was, in I think the late 1980s, a climax to that where there was a referendum, in which the citizens voted overhelmingly against democracy. Since which point the democracy movement has gone underground and become increasingly extreme in trying to bring democracy to the city whether people want it or not; the "Terror"/"Total War" storyline in 2004 featured them using nuclear weapons to make that point. (Real-world applicability left as an exercise for the reader.)
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: neofyte on June 04, 2010, 09:40:55 PM
1 I think Song of Ice and Fiire is an arguable counter to that last. fwiw.

2 I'd kind of like not to have the story in question recapitulate the neverending freewill debate in the on-topic parts of this board, though.

3 Judge Dredd, the comic, has been running since 1977, and is set 122 years in the future, advancing in realtime.  There's been an ongoing thread over much of that time over the democracy movement in Mega-City One, where the Judges rule with an iron grip.  There was, in I think the late 1980s, a climax to that where there was a referendum, in which the citizens voted overhelmingly against democracy. Since which point the democracy movement has gone underground and become increasingly extreme in trying to bring democracy to the city whether people want it or not; the "Terror"/"Total War" storyline in 2004 featured them using nuclear weapons to make that point. (Real-world applicability left as an exercise for the reader.)

1. Thanks for the recommend.  Sad to say I haven't read it...yet
2. Sorry, wasn't my intent this time.  Simply saying that as a reader, I identify with characters when I see/read them wrestle with the tough choices.  Back story may or may not be useful in engendering sympathy in those instances.
3. Wow, I like it  :)
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: Aakaakaak on June 04, 2010, 10:16:24 PM
One thing I've noticed is how the standard story push directs a reader towards the absolute antagonist/protagonist characters of a story. It's trained into large swaths of society as a whole. (At least from what I've seen.) It's difficult to write stories that don't necessarily have these polar opposites.

I have, however, seen storylines that intentionally blur the edges, but most only move from one side to the other. District 9 and Training Day were two examples that I can think of. Protagonist becomes Antagonist or vice versa.

There have been a couple, which I can't remember at this time, that have flip-flopped good and bad to the point where the edges are so blurred there is no definite good or bad. Some /very/ good ones will blur the edges to the point a third option to one side or the other becomes relevant.

Good luck. I hope this helps on some level.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: belial.1980 on June 05, 2010, 02:08:21 AM
It's a daunting and challenging--but intriguing--idea. I recommend reading Tim Lebbon's Fallen if you haven't already. It's quite a good read that primarily uses two alternating VP.

(click to show/hide)


Either way I think it'd be worth your while to check it out to see what Lebbon did with the two main characters' VPs and see if it inspires any ideas for your own project. Good look!

Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: LizW65 on June 05, 2010, 02:26:21 PM
OK, here's my take on this: frequently, but not always, we as readers tend to sympathize with the POV character, as we are allowed into his/her thought processes and understand what makes him/her tick.  Dividing up the POV between characters on both sides of the hypothetical conflict and allowing the reader glimpses into both mindsets could aid in creating equal sympathy.  Conversely, showing only the characters' actions and dialogue without any insight into what they're thinking can do the same; I've been reading a series recently in which a relatively minor character takes focus and becomes interesting precisely because no-one, including the reader, has any idea what he's thinking.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: Shecky on June 05, 2010, 03:31:27 PM
"Bad guys" are doing something that's pretty much reprehensible, but out of a very carefully-researched, intelligently-analyzed sense of "for the greater good" - i.e., some people are going to suffer, but it will improve the life of a much larger section of the population. "Good guys" are opposing the "bad guys" on general principle.

In short:
1) Bad guys are doing the ends-justify-the-means thing but with a great potential benefit. Very cold and calculating, but NOT self-centered - i.e., not to benefit themselves, either as a primary goal or a happy side effect.
2) Good guys are standing on the Right Principles but will cause more widespread suffering. Great empathy for humanity, but zero forward vision.

Maybe in the end the bad guys see a way to sacrifice themselves to bring about the great potential benefit, instead of "having" to cause suffering. Good guys step in and want to do it in the place of the bad guys. Final conflict will essentially be over who gets to off themselves. :D
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: Aakaakaak on June 05, 2010, 04:21:11 PM
Like The Watchmen?
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: Shecky on June 05, 2010, 04:22:00 PM
Like The Watchmen?

Watchmen did a fine job with its particular spin on just that concept.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on June 08, 2010, 02:39:52 AM
"Bad guys" are doing something that's pretty much reprehensible, but out of a very carefully-researched, intelligently-analyzed sense of "for the greater good" - i.e., some people are going to suffer, but it will improve the life of a much larger section of the population. "Good guys" are opposing the "bad guys" on general principle.

That has the problem, there, of finding an example where I personally can make myself see the sides in an equal light; as you may have noticed, I am very much a greater-good sort of person.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on June 08, 2010, 02:42:43 AM
Watchmen did a fine job with its particular spin on just that concept.

I think Watchmen is actually doing something more complicated than that polarity, by a long shot.

I see four moral poles in Watchmen; the Comedian at "nothing really matters so do whatever the hell you like" moral nihilism, Dr. Manhattan at "nothing can be changed so just hang around brooding" existential nihilism, Rorschach at a spurious moral absolutism which pretty much always boils down in practice to "let's go hurt people we think are scum until by chance alone we find a clue", and Ozymandias at pragmatism, which to my mind the text demonstrates as capable of outmatching each of those other poles.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: KevinEvans on June 08, 2010, 07:19:51 AM
My take on it,

Every one is the hero in their own story. My latest task was to find a villain for an upcoming novel that was really able to pull reader sympathy. You know the guy you love to hate...

Possibly you could alternate POVs between sides, with each side pro them selves, to a mostly equal degree. The biggest problem I see is that the reader may become confused.

Regards,
Kevin
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: meg_evonne on June 08, 2010, 01:44:01 PM
I suspect you will find a way to be sympathetic to both sides and do well at it.  Some really insightful suggestions posted that are excellent.  Thank you neofyte and everyone!

Here's my concern...  If you succeed, you have immediately drawn lines, defined your characters, set the entire book within the first few pages.  Are you concerned you will be revealing too much and thus lose the readers interest.  

Since I know your style is equal fairness with the tendency to give good the slight edge, since I know you are an excellent writer, since I know you are always pushing your writer craft skills-- are you considering that your very question you ask, is in fact, your whole point for the work?  Instead should you be considering how to flip your characters and the readers from one sympathetic POV to the opposing view that ends up sympathetic at the end?  

Uhm, not sure I explained right.  By allowing your readers to fall into the easy sympathetic view point vs the other in the beginning you are lulling them into complacency (note not disinterest, but rather a sense of the novel norm).  Frankly the more complacency the better.   Then through the course of the work have that completely reverse or open the readers eyes to the sympathy of the other view point.  It would be an incredible feat of craft skills.  Plus you've now made your point about the motivations behind both sides of a conflict as being sympathetic in the end OR the complete switch as you play with the reader's mind and thoughts.  Thus making them think?  the impact can be mind blowing and incredibly awesome as a reader--if it's done right.

The simplified version of this is the Star Trek (original) with the rock worm thing.  A more recent story telling is from a business book on paradigms.  It has a business man in a subway on the way home from work--tired, worn out.  A harried man with two very young children climb on.  The kids have ice cream cones.  You know where it's going right?  The man is distracted, not attending to the children with loaded weapons in rush hour traffic.  You where it's going right?  The kids are climbing around, getting in trouble, the business man is ready to blow his cool.  Up the tension...

Then it happens and one of the ice cream cones lands on the business man's lap with a plop of messing melting goo.  Stage is set, right?

The father rushes to help, far too late, far too little.  Ready for the switch?

"I'm so sorry.  We just came from the hospital where my wife died."

:-)  I absolutely adore that as a modern day folk tale.  See the power in it?

So this was a tangent from your main question of making both sides sympathetic.  My question, why, when you have the perfect set up to really rock the reader.  Let me know how it turns out, okay?  
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: svb1972 on June 08, 2010, 02:25:02 PM
Humanization.  lets say you write a book about a fictional US/Russian world war.  If you write it from the POV of the Americans and the Russians are almost entirely faceless bad guys.  Then people will take a side. 

If on the other hand. You portray the conflict from both sides.  Humanizing both sides, giving them likable characters on each side.  And more importantly, repugnant characters on both sides.  Showing that both sides are just as human as the other.  That what separates them is politics, and ideology.

You are in fact a 'Greater Good' kind of person.  But I'm sure you are able to envision what the other side looks like, and how to characterize it.  Additionally, make sure one of your alpha readers is 'not' a Greater Good, but more of a 'Do the Right Thing(R)*'  So that you can sanity check your 'other side'. 

The key to not having a villain?  Is for neither side to come across un-sympathetically.  If one side saves orphans and supports widows, and the other wise holds Death Games where homeless people fight to the death for food.  That's not balanced :)  People will gravitate to one side over the other, absolutely.  But if both sides are well characterized and humanized, then people will be made to think about the 'other side'.  People on the fence, will think, and your audience will draw in people from both perspectives.  And then you can sit back and cackle when people on your Forum Board are having bitter death CAPSLOCK matches about which side is the 'good guys'.




* Registered Trademark Pending.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: Shecky on June 08, 2010, 02:43:39 PM
I think Watchmen is actually doing something more complicated than that polarity, by a long shot.

I see four moral poles in Watchmen; the Comedian at "nothing really matters so do whatever the hell you like" moral nihilism, Dr. Manhattan at "nothing can be changed so just hang around brooding" existential nihilism, Rorschach at a spurious moral absolutism which pretty much always boils down in practice to "let's go hurt people we think are scum until by chance alone we find a clue", and Ozymandias at pragmatism, which to my mind the text demonstrates as capable of outmatching each of those other poles.

Certainly. Although even expanding to four is an oversimplification; the underlying psychological influences motivating and governing each character are multifaceted, and the "bad" isn't necessarily as bad as it's made out to be, while the "good" is equally not entirely as it would be portrayed (e.g., Rorschach DID do a lot of good despite being reprehensible in many ways, Dr. Manhattan DID help a lot despite being aloof and disconnected and uncaring in most ways, Veidt was in many important aspects purely out for his own advancement to the detriment of others, etc.). The key is that EACH of them had something for everyone to like and something for everyone to dislike... just like people.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on June 09, 2010, 04:13:40 PM
Every one is the hero in their own story.

I very much don't believe this, because of the small number of truly malevolent real people I have met, the majority saw themselves as villains and took pride in it.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: meh on June 09, 2010, 05:12:00 PM
Ideally, I would want characters on either side of the central conflict, as close to equally sympathetic as possible.  I am not particularly interested in the story having a hero or a villain, let alone a hero defeating a villain; it's a complex issue where I want to explore questions rather than throw out simple answers.

*goes to hunt down his copy of Schismatrix*
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on June 09, 2010, 06:25:57 PM
*goes to hunt down his copy of Schismatrix*

Now that setting is a good example, particularly "Twenty Evocations".
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: Der Sturmbrecher on June 10, 2010, 09:54:35 PM
I'm new to the writing craft, but am also an avid reader. Hopefully you get something out of this.

The movie The Prestige. Excellent film. If you haven't seen it, see it. If you have, skip to next paragraph.
(click to show/hide)

Despite his flaws, I continuous found myself favoring Jackman's character. Likely cause? Reader's sympathy was well established at the beginning with the loss of his wife. Maybe I also just preferred his performance.

The beginning of the story favors Jackman's point of view as well. You never doubt that the story is about both, but you see a little more from Jackman's eyes. This stacks up with previous posters' advice that I saw.

Alternatively, you could go the direction The Dark Knight did. The Joker was a completely despicable character in terms of moral make-up, but it also made him fascinating, and easily my favorite character in the movie. One way to go might be to make one of your characters someone who the readers are drawn to in spite of rather than because of themselves, and have the other be palatable and entertaining.  Unlikely given your plot description, but possible.
Inevitably,  readers will pick sides. One way you can keep the balance a little is to keep them guessing, like Rowling did with Snape. I love Snape as a character, and am glad he turned out good. But I also would have loved it had he been the Machiavellan villain I’d heard one theory call him, topping even Voldy and being the real antagonist. If you change the circumstances surrounding your characters, it’ll keep them wondering who’s going to do what.

Hope you get something good out of this, and good chance to you!
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on June 10, 2010, 10:24:22 PM
Inevitably,  readers will pick sides. One way you can keep the balance a little is to keep them guessing, like Rowling did with Snape. I love Snape as a character, and am glad he turned out good. But I also would have loved it had he been the Machiavellan villain I’d heard one theory call him, topping even Voldy and being the real antagonist. If you change the circumstances surrounding your characters, it’ll keep them wondering who’s going to do what.

I still regret Uncle Dudley not turning out to be a deep-cover SAS type who took Voldemort's head off with a shotgun in the final book, but that may just be me.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: Der Sturmbrecher on June 10, 2010, 11:29:46 PM
I still regret Uncle Dudley not turning out to be a deep-cover SAS type who took Voldemort's head off with a shotgun in the final book, but that may just be me.

Not just you: 'loved the idea of Voldemort getting killed by Muggle weaponry.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: Sihaya on June 11, 2010, 02:08:52 AM
Not just you: 'loved the idea of Voldemort getting killed by Muggle weaponry.

Like in Wizards?  That may be why it didn't happen.  Of course, it's been thirty years since that film.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: meh on June 11, 2010, 04:42:05 PM
Of course, it's been thirty years since

I'm still convinced that the late 70s did film resolution right and that everything since has been compromised to pander to audiences in a *feelgood* way.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on June 11, 2010, 05:04:39 PM
I'm still convinced that the late 70s did film resolution right and that everything since has been compromised to pander to audiences in a *feelgood* way.

There are times, usually after watching some Powell and Pressburger, that I think that art was lost track of much earlier than that.

On the other hand, I would point to Polanski's Ghost Writer as an example of a taut and lean and tightly resolved thriller very much dong Seventies-era avoiding of "feelgood" compromises that came out this year.
Title: Re: balance of sympathies
Post by: meh on June 11, 2010, 05:10:44 PM
On the other hand, I would point to Polanski's Ghost Writer as an example of a taut and lean and tightly resolved thriller very much dong Seventies-era avoiding of "feelgood" compromises that came out this year.

Saw that.    Had a bit of trouble /not/ thinking
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but past the bike scene it was nice and tight and fun.      I did have a question about it that I can't remember now.