ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Serack on July 15, 2011, 06:10:23 PM
-
So the runes on the shack and Lighthouse have come up in the 1k+ post long GS preview chapter thread and DominicJ made a post that really got me thinking... The thoughts are getting a bit research heavy, and experience with my Lash Theory post shows that my posts that cite a lot of WoJ and text read better if they list those quotes at the end, so I'll use that format.
So in the earlier discussion we were talking about how Jim has said that the runes were prehistoric,woj#1 which strongly implies that they ain't human (being writing, and prehistoric meaning before written history), and DominicJ made this comment:
The Naagloshi came from somewhere, the teach humans the "right" path.
Maybe that lighthouse is the way home, and its noqw barred to him?
So his fellow naagloshi wrote it?
Ok, so this idea meshes pretty well with the description of the origins of the Naagloshii in TCxrt#1 which even states that they were probably prehistoric. Here's the thing though. It's implied pretty strongly in SmF that what's on the other side from inside the lighthouse is pretty nasty.xrt#3
However, if you take Harry's description of the Old ones from Dead Beatxrt#2 about how they were apparently banished from our reality, and ask who dunit, maybe the Holy People participated in it. Also, where did they go themselves? Maybe when they did this banishing, they also left reality themselves (See Jim's description of Benevolent beingswoj#2), and also reside on the other side at the lighthouse (that last bit is a big maybe).
The thing is, The info we have about where the Mordite infused Mistfiend came from,xrt#4 and WoJ about the "Outside, and mordite"woj#3 make me think the "Outside" is really just a far reach of the NN, which is also possibly where the "Holy People" left for by choice... I dunno, it all gets a little fuzzy...
I'd like to be able to tie in Jim's comments about how the title of Wardens wasn't originally plurral, and how that seems to be important to the cluebat we got from Eb's journal about "that particular Mantle" but I haven't figured out where it fits with all that...
Below are the WoJ and Text references
WoJ #1
Can you tell us more about the runes on the cottage and the lighthouse?
They were not put there by Demonreach; they have been there a very long time. They are pre-Council. They’re a prehistoric script, actually. Harry could have figured out the script if he’d had the comic book.
WoJ #2
How do you come up with the bounds between Characters free will and the Divine Hand?
For the Dresden Files, the whole point of The Almighty positive good forces that are out there is that free will is important and they respect that and you've gotta have it and use it. That's the entire point. They are a force of freedom. And it's the bad guys who are going around doing whatever they can to abrogate free will. So for me, where you draw the line is what defines where good stops and evil starts is by how much you're taking away free will and how much you're enabling it.
WoJ #3
This posits the question. Besides are reality and nevernever on the other side of the veil, is there anything else? If nevernever is the biggest place, does it encompass all that isn't our world, our reality? I was assume no because I don't think that Mordite (the stuff that the Archive brought to the duel) comes from Nevernever, but from outside everything.
Remember that everything Harry tells you is from Harry's point of view. :) As far as Harry knows, that's the way it is--with the clarification that yes, there is an Outside (where Outsiders originate) and it is a Very Bad Place. The mordite is, quite simply, matter from the Outside.
I'm not saying "that's all there is, there ain't no more." But as far as Harry knows at this point in the books, that's pretty close.
Jim
Text References:
Excerpt #1
"According to some of the stories of the Navajo, the naagloshii were originally messengers of the Holy People, when they were first teaching humans the Blessing Way."
...
"the original messengers, the naagloshii, were supposed to go with the Holy People when they departed the mortal world. But some of them didn't. They stayed here, and their selfishness correpted the power the Holy People gave them. Viola, Shangnasty."
..."When did this happen"
"Tough to say," Bob said. "The traditional Navajo don't see time the way most mortals do, which makes them arguably smarter than the rest of you onkeys. But it's safe to assume prehistory. Several millennia."
Excerpt #2
Outsiders, though, were so rarely spoken of that they were all but a rumor. I wasn't really clear on all the details, but the outsiders had been servants and foot soldiers of the Old Ones, an ancient race of demons or gods who once ruled the mortal world, but how had apparently been cast out and locked away from our reality.
Excerpt #3
"Cross into the Nevernever from where you're standing?" Nichodemus asked. "You'd e better off asking the Russian to put a bullet through your head for you. I know what lives on the other side."
Given that they'd chosen this location for the greater circle precisely because it was a source of intense dark energy, I had no trouble believing that it connected to som enasty portions of the Nevernever. There was every chance that Nicodemus was not bluffing.
Excerpt #4
The Senior Council managed to contain and banish the mordite-infused mistfiend, a rare and dangerous gaseous being from the far reaches of the Nevernever
-
So in the earlier discussion we were talking about how Jim has said that the runes were prehistoric,woj#1 which strongly implies that they ain't human (being writing, and prehistoric meaning before written history), and DominicJ made this comment:
Not... quite. There have been glyphs and other forms or writing that predate a written history as we understand it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_signs for example. Since they're runes on the building, it's entirely possible that they were just symbols of warding and protection, carved by humans, but not necessarily the same thing as spoken words like we'd understand them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiahu_symbols also has similar symbols from an even earlier time period.
-
I always wonder (okay, hope) whether stepping through to the NN on Demonreach leads to the place where the -real- fallen are stuck (like the cavern mentioned in the book of Enoch, for example). I know that there's a fallen angel in each of the blackened Denari, but I never really saw that as the 'physical' angel.
Lash was a copy, right? Well I've always thought that the angels inside the coins were just the spiritual aspect.
So maybe their bodies/physical forms are hidden somewhere in the NN? That probably made no sense, excuse my rambling xD
Maybe there are other dark beings stored there, and Maggie was supposed to guard them?
Either that, or it's a gateway to the outer gates, the ones that the outsiders live behind (as you mentioned)
OH, could the old ones have been the watchers/nephilim?
I'm going to stop hijacking your research and dive into a pile of musty books, my apologies xD
Thanks for making me think though ^_^
-
In reference to the WoJ talking about the lighthouse runes, Jim says Harry could figure it out if he had the comic book.
I was under the impression he was referring to one of the old Lovecraftian Horror type comics. (Implying Outsiders)
Also, talking about the mantle of "The Warden" I got the impression that Demonreach may be a prison a sort... or sorts.
-
Not... quite. There have been glyphs and other forms or writing that predate a written history as we understand it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_signs for example. Since they're runes on the building, it's entirely possible that they were just symbols of warding and protection, carved by humans, but not necessarily the same thing as spoken words like we'd understand them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiahu_symbols also has similar symbols from an even earlier time period.
I actually have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing_system#History_of_writing_systems up in another tab right now.
And in the aforementioned discussion I did say: (Emphasis added)
The idea My point is if it's prehistoric, then by definition means it came before humans had writing, and thus the writing is non-human, not pre-human
Edit: Although I suppose it is possible that it could fit in some fuzzy area where Humans had script, but hadn't bothered to record any history with it...
I think Landing made the strongest argument for "prehistoric" strongly implying it wasn't written by humans, with this quote from wikipedia.
Prehistory (Latin, præ = before, historia = history/story) is the period before recorded history. Paul Tournal originally coined the term anté-historique[1] in describing the finds he had made in the caves of southern France.[2] It came into use in France in the 1830s to describe the time before writing, and the word "prehistoric" was introduced into English by Daniel Wilson in 1851.[3][4]
I'm not taking it as a given that it wasn't human script. There's plenty of wiggle room out of that. It certainly is interesting to think that it could have been written by the "Holy People" though.
-
I always wonder (okay, hope) whether stepping through to the NN on Demonreach leads to the place where the -real- fallen are stuck (like the cavern mentioned in the book of Enoch, for example). I know that there's a fallen angel in each of the blackened Denari, but I never really saw that as the 'physical' angel.
Lash was a copy, right? Well I've always thought that the angels inside the coins were just the spiritual aspect.
So maybe their bodies/physical forms are hidden somewhere in the NN? That probably made no sense, excuse my rambling xD
Maybe there are other dark beings stored there, and Maggie was supposed to guard them?
Either that, or it's a gateway to the outer gates, the ones that the outsiders live behind (as you mentioned)
OH, could the old ones have been the watchers/nephilim?
I'm going to stop hijacking your research and dive into a pile of musty books, my apologies xD
Thanks for making me think though ^_^
Meh, this is total hypothesis, but I think it's possible, that being spirit beings, physical dimensions don't really matter, and their "bodies" are in the coins too. I kind of imagine pockets of the NN trapped in the coins kinda the opposite of how a dream can create a pocket in the NN...
In reference to the WoJ talking about the lighthouse runes, Jim says Harry could figure it out if he had the comic book.
I was under the impression he was referring to one of the old Lovecraftian Horror type comics. (Implying Outsiders)
Also, talking about the mantle of "The Warden" I got the impression that Demonreach may be a prison a sort... or sorts.
It is generally accepted that Jim was referring to some script found in Welcome to the Jungle, the first DF "graphic novel".
-
Fair enough. I think of Prehistory being before we have records from, not necessarily before records were kept. I suppose without WoJ on what he considers prehistory, it's impossible to tell, really.
-
It is generally accepted that Jim was referring to some script found in Welcome to the Jungle, the first DF "graphic novel".
I own Welcome to the Jungle, and I've obviously read it a couple of times, but I don't remember -- does Harry (or Bob) identify the runes, or are they just there? Bob talks about the type of ritual that's being put together, but is that based off or runes, or something else?
-
Fair enough. I think of Prehistory being before we have records from, not necessarily before records were kept. I suppose without WoJ on what he considers prehistory, it's impossible to tell, really.
Or we might have to wait until we get more info in the books :D
I own Welcome to the Jungle, and I've obviously read it a couple of times, but I don't remember -- does Harry (or Bob) identify the runes, or are they just there? Bob talks about the type of ritual that's being put together, but is that based off or runes, or something else?
(below is a modified version of a post I made in the other topic)
The person that took the notes for that WoJ Thought it had something to do with some graphetti in underchicago, but I'm pretty sure it had to do with some script on some small vessels used for collecting blood for an ascension ritual.
If I remember right, something in the comic identified the script as either in the language of the people that occupied parts of Greece before the people we currently think of as greek took over (and they were subsequently displaced into some rather crappy outlying Greecian areas that ended up being the home of the bulk of Hectate worship) or it was ancient ancient mesopotameanish... (as in presumerain)
I researched it a while ago, and remember looking into both at the time but don't remember the context for each... My copy of WttJ isn't with me at the moment though.
-
Meh, this is total hypothesis, but I think it's possible, that being spirit beings, physical dimensions don't really matter, and their "bodies" are in the coins too. I kind of imagine pockets of the NN trapped in the coins kinda the opposite of how a dream can create a pocket in the NN...
It's a very good hypothesis, and the basis of a lot of angel-based mythology. I'm just a wishful thinker :D
So would that mean that if the Outsiders (hypothesising of course) were the ones to be imprisoned beyond demon reach, that they would have to be physical creatures at least in part?
-
It's a very good hypothesis, and the basis of a lot of angel-based mythology. I'm just a wishful thinker :D
Oh yah, angels on heads of pins and stuff... I'm not sure which is more productive, those discussions or this one... ;D
So would that mean that if the Outsiders (hypothesising of course) were the ones to be imprisoned beyond demon reach, that they would have to be physical creatures at least in part?
oih vey.
There are some reallllly odd concepts swirling around in my head that try to deal with that question.
Jim has confirmed that the Outsiders are Lovecraftianesque. Some of his monsters were so incorporeal they were flat out colors. I'm not so sure the term "Physical" is completely ascribable to something from the same place as the mordite described in SK.
"...It's not from our world"
"It's extraterrestrial?"
"You do not understand, Miss Rodriguez," Ortega said quietly. "Mordite is not from this galaxy, or this universe. It is not of our reality."
...I nodded. "It's from Outside."
I get the idea that their existance is rather anthetical to ours... Hence their powers being associated with a different ascerction of reality at the end of WK.
-
Or we might have to wait until we get more info in the books :D
Well yes, but that's like finding out who lives in the white house third from the end with what kind of pet and what they do by knocking on the door and taking a census. No fun at all.
It's always possible that I'm right about the prehistory, and that it's from a time when humans had writing, or at least pictographs for recording information/warnings, and that they were still put there by some non-human entity.
Another question though, if the runes are prehistoric, that means the Lighthouse is prehistoric. So who made that? The earliest recorded evidence of a light house is the Pharos, but even that was only built in 300 BC (or so). We'd be looking at something probably 2-3 millenia older than that if it's prehistoric.
-
Another question though, if the runes are prehistoric, that means the Lighthouse is prehistoric. So who made that? The earliest recorded evidence of a light house is the Pharos, but even that was only built in 300 BC (or so). We'd be looking at something probably 2-3 millenia older than that if it's prehistoric.
Or maybe the stones reused to make the building, are actually not in their first reusage...
-
The person that took the notes for that WoJ Thought it had something to do with some graphetti in underchicago, but I'm pretty sure it had to do with some script on some small vessels used for collecting blood for an ascension ritual.
This is what I was thinking, as well. The script around the mouth of the jar, together with the information that the individual was collecting blood from large, dangerous animals, was enough for Bob to figure out what was afoot. I'll have to check it when I get home.
-
going to say the stones where on the island and new persons used them to build light house but beat to it
-
Thanks a lot, Serack! /sarcasm ;D
(Now instead of mindlessly playing Minecraft and continue work building my all-glass mountain range this evening, I get to delve into the historical relationships between symbology, language & writing.)
I'll let you know if I find anything... interesting.
-
This is what I was thinking, as well. The script around the mouth of the jar, together with the information that the individual was collecting blood from large, dangerous animals, was enough for Bob to figure out what was afoot. I'll have to check it when I get home.
Here we go:
"What about the runes? I thought they might be a modified Sumerian cuneiform but it didn't quite fit.
Not too far off, boss, they're arcadian mystic runes. Old, old stuff. Rarer than hell.
Arcadia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia_(ancient_region)#Arcadia) ended up being the home of the Pelasgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians), thought to be the original or indigenous inhabitants of Greece.
-
Keep in mind that the runes on the house and tower were able to keep the Skinwalker out, and it was furious as a result. This to me implies that it not only knew what those runes did, but probably a general guess of the people/being responsible for the runes. Seeing as the Holy People gave the skin walkers their abilities, it's not too much of a stretch to think they would know how to stop one. Now what the runes Holy People of the Amereican Southwest were doing on an island in the middle of Lake Michigan is another question all together
-
I thought "a prehistoric script" might mean it was from some lost civilization from which no history survives -- some Atlantis-type thing. (Maybe the fall of that civilization was what inspired the creation of the Archive?)
The Arcadia thing... hmmm. Well, the Pelasgians are pretty much a blank historically, so I guess any history they had would be lost...
-
Possibly the runes were meant to keep out hostile entities, and the skin walker qualified while the Denarians did not. This would explain why the skin walker did not recognize them, and why he got so mad when he couldn't force his way through, and we don't have to come up with an explanation for how runes connected to American southwest legends got to Lake Michigan.
If the runes had been placed by the Holy People the skin walker would have likely recognized them, which he didn't seem to.
-
Or maybe the stones reused to make the building, are actually not in their first reusage...
Or someone much later came along and used the super-old-language-of-awesome to inscribe wardings / protection / etc on the tower.
Just because the language is old, does not mean the writing is.
-
Not... quite. There have been glyphs and other forms or writing that predate a written history as we understand it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_signs for example. Since they're runes on the building, it's entirely possible that they were just symbols of warding and protection, carved by humans, but not necessarily the same thing as spoken words like we'd understand them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiahu_symbols also has similar symbols from an even earlier time period.
Thank you! some got the point i was tryin to make in the other thread an worded it better
-
I think the biggest mistake is everyone is takeing jims usage of prehistoric as the text book wiki definition
when its just as likely he used it meaning old an before well known recorded history. If it makes it into a book THEN its cannon woj are not in fallable till what he says actually happens in the books
-
The runes blocked Shagnasty, but not the Denarians, Harry, the Archive, or the normal humans. The Denarians were probably as bad in intention as Shagnasty was, and the Fallen were probably at least in Shagnasty's league of power, if not beyond. Maybe the runes only block supernatural creeps who don't have souls?
The Warden question came up again in the Pre-GS thread, too, and it was noted that while the Warden apparently had something to do with preventing Shagnasty from using the Nevernever to travel to the island, the two human-seeming people were able to do so, and they were able to bring fae creatures through with them.
Two possible explanations for this come to my mind: First, that whatever is blocking Shagnasty from using the Nevernever, fae creatures are exempt from it. Or second, that once a portal is opened, any creature can pass through, even those who would be blocked from entering on their own.
If the second explanation is true, then the same magic which empowers the runes on the cottage and the tower may be what is blocking entrance onto Demonreach from the Nevernever. The wards around the island might prevent anyone who doesn't have a soul from entering the cottage or the tower, or from even opening a portal onto Demonreach from the Nevernever. Very human-centric magic. And maybe good for Harry, defense-wise, if he decides to move out there.
Still, I think this is only one of many equally likely possibilities.
-
Another way the ruins might work is that there needs to be someone bound to the island in order for the ruins to work. In SF Harry was not yet bound to the island, therefore the Nickelheads could go into and out of the cabin and lighthouse because the ruins were dormant.
In Turn Coat Harry was bound to Demon Reach, so Demon Reach knew that Harry didn’t like the Skinkwalker and so bared its entry. Also it allowed Harry to magically shove Thomas into the cabin and the ruins didn’t prevent Thomas who is a demon possessed vamp from entering because Harry wanted to protect Thomas.
-
^^ thats really really good perhaps harrys Sanctum Invocation sorta rebooted the runes an whatever their purpose is *hats off*
-
My guess on why it blocked shagnasty and not the denarians is that the fallen are locked inside of a human, while shagnasty is a purely supernatural being. So in this case I think the human part protected the denarians from the wards.
I believe that the wards were placed on the tower after it was built as I find it unlikely that if they were put on another structure then broken apart and rebuilt somewhere else that they would still work.
-
The runes blocked Shagnasty, but not the Denarians, Harry, the Archive, or the normal humans. The Denarians were probably as bad in intention as Shagnasty was, and the Fallen were probably at least in Shagnasty's league of power, if not beyond. Maybe the runes only block supernatural creeps who don't have souls?
The Warden question came up again in the Pre-GS thread, too, and it was noted that while the Warden apparently had something to do with preventing Shagnasty from using the Nevernever to travel to the island, the two human-seeming people were able to do so, and they were able to bring fae creatures through with them.
Two possible explanations for this come to my mind: First, that whatever is blocking Shagnasty from using the Nevernever, fae creatures are exempt from it. Or second, that once a portal is opened, any creature can pass through, even those who would be blocked from entering on their own.
If the second explanation is true, then the same magic which empowers the runes on the cottage and the tower may be what is blocking entrance onto Demonreach from the Nevernever. The wards around the island might prevent anyone who doesn't have a soul from entering the cottage or the tower, or from even opening a portal onto Demonreach from the Nevernever. Very human-centric magic. And maybe good for Harry, defense-wise, if he decides to move out there.
Still, I think this is only one of many equally likely possibilities.
Are we certain the Skinwalker is soulless? I think Bob only stated that it has no need for gender. It certainly seemed well acquainted with what Soulfire was capable of, and of its origins. I'll grant that knowledge of it doesn't necessarily imply that the Skinwalker has a soul.
Jim has stated that the Skinwalker boasts a form of intellectus in the Shagnasty section of the WOJ thread. Here's the relevant part of the quote:
"Q: How and why did the skinwalker take Thomas?
A: Thomas was distracted by Binder’s minions and the skinwalker saw the opportunity. It knew that Thomas is important to Harry, but not necessarily that Thomas is Harry’s brother. The skinwalker exists in more than one dimension at a time and it has its own kind of intellectus when it comes to evil – it knows what will hurt you and scare you, even though it may not really know why."
DemonReach is also a spirit, and also has access to a form of intellectus. There is a metaphysical component to the Skinwalker, though whether a spirit or soul is attached isn't clearly defined. There is also the physical and mental effect it had on Harry when Dresden viewed it with his Sight to consider.
-
Given something someone (either Bob or Harry, maybe Thomas) said about love, sex, making a whole new soul from the merging of two souls, and how powerful it is, I would think that souls might be needed for reproduction. So something genderless, something that doesn't procreate, would have no soul.
This is, of course, probably entirely unsupported and even contraindicated by the rest of the series though.
-
Given something someone (either Bob or Harry, maybe Thomas) said about love, sex, making a whole new soul from the merging of two souls, and how powerful it is, I would think that souls might be needed for reproduction. So something genderless, something that doesn't procreate, would have no soul.
This is, of course, probably entirely unsupported and even contraindicated by the rest of the series though.
Shaggy's origins are a bit of a mystery at this point. Presumably, he entered reality by the same means as every other Holy Person did. We do have one other example of someone who entered the world without the "parents" having relations, given the Swords that are in play.
And I'm'a shut up now before I hit a very TT with a question about whether that guy had a soul.
-
Wasn't the Stone Table located above Lake Michigan? I've wondered for a while if it had any relation to the runes at the DR.
-
We do have one other example of someone who entered the world without the "parents" having relations, given the Swords that are in play.
And I'm'a shut up now before I hit a very TT with a question about whether that guy had a soul.
Jesus's parents may not have had relations, but Bob said that angels are nothing but soul, it's reasonable to assume that the White God (not real God, but made up DV Christian God) is the same if not more so. So he could probably have managed that.
However, if angels don't make baby angels, then it argues against procreation being necessary for a soul.
Also, I've always considered the Stone Table being less of an actual location, and more like an idea. It is where and when the Queens want it, and they can put it wherever they want.
-
Just one thing. Is the lighthouse a lighthouse. Or is it an ancient tower that Harry just presumes was a lighthouse instead of livingquaters of most powerfull powerfullnes of his time ^^. Who knows, maybe Raistlin lived there! ^^
White God (not real God, but made up DV Christian God)
I probably will be considered a troll for saying this, but I think DV God is infintely more cool than "real" God.
^^
-
-doublepost- fffuuu
-
I probably will be considered a troll for saying this, but I think DV God is infintely more cool than "real" God.
:D
Given something someone (either Bob or Harry, maybe Thomas) said about love, sex, making a whole new soul from the merging of two souls, and how powerful it is, I would think that souls might be needed for reproduction.
Uh, so how do animals other than humans reproduce? They don't have human souls. And what about changelings?
-
but I never really saw that as the 'physical' angel.
I'd assumed angels didnt have physical bodies, unless they created them with soul fire.
Bob sayas words to the effect of "Thats all they are Harry, souls", about angels.
-
I suppose that a time-traveler could have gone to prehistoric times and made the writing.
One way or another, I'd guess that the writing was made a long time before the lighthouse and cottage, just because the function and style of those kind of structures seems too modern. My impression was that those buildings were left over from the botched attempt at settling the island, and the builders used the rune covered rock to build with. (using artifacts to build with was depressingly common at the time.)
-
Just one thing. Is the lighthouse a lighthouse. Or is it an ancient tower that Harry just presumes was a lighthouse instead of livingquaters of most powerfull powerfullnes of his time
From how the island is described, and the fact that the fire they followed to get to the correct location to get through the stone reef was near the 'tower', I would go with it was a lighthouse. What the stones came from before that, is another story.
-
:D
Uh, so how do animals other than humans reproduce? They don't have human souls. And what about changelings?
Gross out Factor: Tapeworms carry both male and female genitalia. They don't need a partner.
All that we presently have on the Skinwalker is this, as told from Bob's (slightly anecdotal) point of view in Turn Coat, page 212-213, hardback edition: "You're using the English word, which doesn't really describe them very precisely. Most skinwalkers are just people- powerful, dangerous, and often psychotic people, but people. They're successors to the traditions and skills taught to avaricious mortals by the originals. The naagloshii." "Originals like Shagnasty", I said. "He's the real deal, all right," Bob replied, his quiet voice growing serious. "According to some stories of the Navajo, the naagloshii were originally messengers for the Holy People, when they were first teaching humans the Blessing Way." "Messengers?" I said. "Like angels?"
"Or like those guys on bikes in New York, maybe?" Bob said. "Not all couriers are created identical, Mr. Lowest-Common denominator. Anyway, the original messengers, the naagloshii, were supposed to go with the Holy People when they departed the mortal world. But some of them didn't. They stayed here, and their selfishness corrupted the power the Holy People gave them. Voila, Shagnasty."
And as for the procreation issue, here's what Bob had to say about it on page 212: "It's a semidivine immortal, Harry. It doesn't procreate. It has no need to recombine DNA. That means that gender doesn't apply. That's something only you meat sacks worry about."
Based on that statement, it seems as though there are quite a few things running around that don't have procreation requirements, but may also have souls regardless of that factor. Shaggy was created as a messenger, initially- which places him way outside of any category we've come across in the past, because he's not based on the typical definition of life.
-
Edited now on computer
******
During the fight with the naagloshi, possibly after it ends, the Naagloshi expalins to Harry that he has tortured Thomas beyond sanity, and was considering throwing thomas into the house with molly before Harry Force Ringed him in.
Only he doesnt say house, he says "Hogan", which is a type of navajo dwelling, one that had strong religious connotations.
Is he just using a generic word for house, or is the lighthouse/cottage a spiritual "Hogan"?
-
Oh this just keeps getting better
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_language
The Navajo language is, somehow, related to the language of much of Alaska and Western Canada, reaching the shores of the hudson bay.
If we assume a moderate amount of traffic along the hudson bay, well that puts us within striking distance of the great lakes, and so the island.
The Naagloshi were sent as messangers to the Navajo, but that doesnt mean they didnt send messangers to other people either, if we use language as a guide, they did....
-
edit: I got my threads mixed.