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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Alablast on July 22, 2020, 12:41:04 AM

Title: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Alablast on July 22, 2020, 12:41:04 AM
I just finished reading Peace Talks last night aaaand I have THOUGHTS on it.


First off, I loved the scenes with Maggie and Bonea.  It was great seeing them transition from 'plot points' like they had been the past few books to not-entirely-full-grown characters, and it was adorable.  <3  It made things a lot more impactful when Dresden was considering things, and the 'why are you sending me back' scene when he moved to protect her was really well done/full of 'ack'.  I'd been waiting a while to see those two and I was not disappointed.

I was also amused that apparently Laschiel knew over two hundred different recipes for pancakes.  Definitely the Temptress.

Other than that, though...  I kind of got a 'rushed' feel from the book.  I know it's meant to be spread across two books so there's a lot that isn't going to come to fruition until later, but... it still felt like there were points where things got 'crammed in' and didn't really get fleshed out/didn't raise some things that felt natural.  Two in particular stand out:

1.)  At the beginning, when Harry and Thomas are talking about what the baby might end up doing to Justine... nobody brings up that Justine is protected.  That comes up again later when Dresden touches Lara, and we have Word Of Jims about the other branches of the White Court being vulnerable to opposing emotions (courage, etc), but it seemed very odd that Dresden didn't even ask if that would make Justine safe.  Given how it seems pretty rare for White Court to have kids it seems like it would be entirely possible there had never actually been a mother who was protected by love like Justine will be.  I get that most of what Thomas did was probably motivated by that 'I have a solution in mind' comment in regards to protecting Justine, but... it just seems extremely out of character for Harry and Thomas to not even suggest it.  Especially given that Harry knows how much Thomas cares for her, and what he would do if her life was threatened.  It seemed like something he would have talked about for a bit or tried to help with.  Which ties into my theory as to what's going on with Thomas and the assassination (more later), but if so then it feels 'rushed' for the purpose of making that possible.

2.)  At the end, when Dresden is back in what is left of his basement.  I *hate* assuming Jim Butcher forgot about something, especially with how much he remembers and how much calls back to things earlier in the series, and how things that are out of place are usually hints at something bigger going on, like Mab messing with his knowledge of fire spells, but... what jumped out at me almost immediately was that Dresden didn't have a copper summoning circle in his basement.  There are two sentences devoted to it specifically; Dresden points out it had survived somehow, then ruminates over the floor of the living collapsing and shielding it from the worst of the flames.

But in Changes, Dresden had upgraded his 'old copper summoning circle' (direct quote from the book) to a brand new one.  The swartalves had made it for him; he talked about how difficult it was to convince them to work with iron.

So does it mean something that the old one is there now instead?  Or was it something that got overlooked with the thousands of other threads Butcher was keeping together?

That said, I still really enjoyed the book.  And I'm looking forward to Battle Ground; I really want to see what happens next, and find out what was going on with Thomas.  And I want to find out if the Lightsaber of Faith can cut through that titan bronze or not.  >=D

Since it's the big thing still left dangling, my theory with Thomas/the assassination:

I think Cristos is a Grade A certified jerk.

Thomas was pretty obviously motivated with saving Justine's life.  Thomas' actions were probably all meant to protect Justine, and the thing threatening her was the baby feeding off of her.  There may be other ways to suppress the Hunger, but as far as we know Thomas only knows of one way to stop a White Court vampire from being able to feed: a wizard casting a spell.

We know from how things ended that the Outsiders were working with the Fomor and trying to disrupt the conference, or at least the response to the Fomor invasion - they started attacking the Outer Gates right before the attack so that Winter couldn't help out.  If their goal was to make it as hard for the Accords to respond as possible, having an assassination attempt occur seven minutes into the conference would be a good way to do it; it would make them all even more suspicious and much less willing to work with each other, even against a huge threat.  Since we know the Black Council is working with Outsiders, my theory at this point is that somebody dangled an enchantment in front of Thomas that would protect Justine so long as he attacked and killed somebody.  If true, that means Cristos knew all about it and was 'diplomacing' to cause more problems with the swartalves and the White Court later, perhaps even counting on a rescue attempt once Thomas was moved.


Things still standing out:

- I think Wild Bill is infected by Nemesis.  :(  I can't put my finger on what exactly it is, but something about how he was acting in the stop after Dresden visited Lara makes me think something is wrong/up with him.

- Who was in the third car trailing Dresden and Murphy?  I thought the Jeep might have been the White Council following him, since it seemed old/they use older cars, but I have no idea who might have been in the silver car.  That seemed White Court, but he was on the way to visit Lara so it didn't make much sense they would follow him there.  Think that's going to be Important.

- It seems like Marcone was leaving a message for Dresden by putting Thomas where he did.  Keeping the subbasement as it was would be one thing and would make some sense if he was trying to learn about the wizardy stuff Dresden had left around (did Little Chicago survive/does Marcone have it now?), but putting Thomas there seems pretty deliberately a message that he knew Dresden would be coming to rescue Thomas.  I think Marcone might know about Dresden/Thomas.

ANYWAYS those are my initial thoughts.  I was really glad to read another Dresden novel, and am really looking forward to Battle Ground now!
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Bad Alias on July 22, 2020, 04:32:41 AM
You should put the summoning circle in the continuity errors thread.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Dina on July 22, 2020, 05:02:33 AM
Hi Ala! So good to see you.
I just have finished reading it. I liked it a lot even when I am very sad. I don't like what is happening with Thomas, or Lara for that matters. She is one of my favorite frenemies too  :)
But I agree with the rushed feeling, specially at first. The first chapters seemed...disjointed. Like different postcards placed in the same album. I commented a few things in specific threads about each of the sample chapters but only a few comments:
In the first chapter Harry sees giant footprints...and does nothing. Tells nothing to anyone. He does not ask Bonea. He does not ask Bob (when he visited Butters).
Apparently, he and McCoy not tell anyone about an outsider attacking them
He does not ask Bob for the sneezing either. I mean, he asks Butters, but he does not ask him to ask Bob. Not even the paranet!
Lara was described twice with very few chapters in between. And we are already familiar with her, so it was boring.
Ramirez placed an ink dot in Harry's waist...long before Harry was hurt and Butters do a hard cleaning of Harry's hands. How did the dot survived?
Lastly, Ramirez acted much more suspicious in the "ambush" than at the party, which was weird.

Things I really like: what you said about Maggie and Bonea (well done), McCoy skills, Grey, River Shoulders, the heist.

About Thomas in the basement, I actually believe Marcone was trying to help Harry to rescue Thomas (without directly doing so, of course), perhaps because he knows Harry would be too dangerous if they killed Thomas, but also...I think he just likes Harry.

Bad Alias is right, you should put the circle in the continuity errors.

IIRC, Justine is not protected, they have sex with other people so they can touch and all that.

Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Bad Alias on July 22, 2020, 03:59:37 PM
It's my understanding that Justine is protected because she looses the protection so Thomas can feed. Once Thomas feeds, she has the protection again. That's why she says something like "repeat as necessary" to Thomas in Ghost Story. However, there's always the chance that the True Love protection is gone because they are no longer at that level. They weren't always there. Something changed in Blood Rites. Who's to say something didn't change again at some subsequent point?
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Regenbogen on July 22, 2020, 06:52:47 PM
This has been discussed somewhere in a sample chapter thread, but I still feel confused about the vampire baby feeding off its mother. Of course every baby feeds off its mother, but this seemed to imply, he meant the baby's hunger demon. But as I understood, WCV are born human and turn vampire during their first feeding, which is always lethal. If they have true love that first time, they stay human:
 Blood Rites, Inari.
The unborn baby's hunger demon feeding would mean, the demon is active during pregnancy and turns inactive after birth. Doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe this is some mind manipulation, too, I wonder.

Edit: And Harry doesn't ask more about that. I mean, he knows, he was there when Inari almost killed him. ;)
The only reason I can think about now, is that the demon protects itself by hiding inside a baby and toddler, because they don't have a lot of control and therefore it would risk being exposed too early in it's life. So it feeds during pregnancy a lot, so that it can survive until puberty. Hitting puberty it is so starved that it can't be stopped, before it kills.
Also it would be a totally different tone in a story if it showed toddler White Vamps feeding. Ahem.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 24, 2020, 02:43:01 AM
Justines protection comes and goes, along with her sex life, presumably the infant Hunger has had to suffer these fluctuations. At the moment of conception though it is likely the True Love protection was restored. What if instead of feeding on Justines lifeforce, the infant is instead feeding on the True Love she shares with Thomas. The child might not be a White Court Vampire at all, it may be human, or something else altogether it’s demon not a demon but something better and purer, a cupid?

We know the hunger is dormant until that first fatal feeding, if the proto Whamp experiences True Love it whithers and the proto Whamp becomes mortal.

Whamps are basically sterile, they have to put themselves about a lot to reproduce. On top of this they took precautions. On top of this Justine had True Love protection. Still the child was conceived.

I think the birth of the child will give Harry the clue he needs to cure Thomas, and an insight into the true nature of the Whamps.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Dina on July 24, 2020, 06:47:08 AM
I think the birth of the child will give Harry the clue he needs to cure Thomas, and an insight into the true nature of the Whamps.

Hopefully, at least this is going to happen. I like when Harry is actually Wise (as in "Wizard") and figures something important (like with the Swords)
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: ClintACK on July 24, 2020, 12:34:55 PM
Yep. The theme of parental love has been a big deal recently in the Dresdenverse, and we know that Jim likes Frozen. (It makes an appearance in the Christmas Eve short.)
(click to show/hide)

I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that while "romantic" love is usually thought to be the bane of the White Court, in fact *all* selfless love works, just in slightly different ways.

Given what the White Court are, I can believe that it's never come up before -- a WCV in true, requited love with the mother of his child, who he loves.

Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Bad Alias on July 24, 2020, 05:12:53 PM
Jim's said that the love a parent has for a child doesn't count for True Love.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: ClintACK on July 24, 2020, 05:57:39 PM
Right. If I remember the quote it's because it's not an equal love in which both sides make sacrifices for the other. So it doesn't give you True Love protection vs a third-party WCV's Hunger.

But... with actual True Love between the parents, I wonder what that might do to the baby's proto-Hunger. Or what Thomas's self-sacrificing love for his child might do to Thomas's own Hunger.

I think there's a good bit of wiggle room in there.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Bad Alias on July 24, 2020, 07:08:10 PM
Yeah. Wouldn't a child born of True Love be a token of True Love like the rose thorn that poisoned Madelyn or the ring that burned Lara? I could see a whole story based on just the White Court and people permanently immune to them.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 24, 2020, 08:06:31 PM
What if the child has all the powers of a Whamp, but is powered by True Love? They would be able to draw power from someone in True Love by touch or from a wedding ring or other Love token, and because it is True Love rather than lifeforce there is no diminution in the act of feeding due to constant renewal. Probably less power in one gulp, but on that basis if Thomas were to be changed in the same way, he could marry Justine and his Wedding Ring create a remote link to her constantly powering him up, unlike a Whamp he only need to be careful he isn’t expending more power than he is taking in, otherwise he would power down.

Of course it would be in his interest to foster True Love as potential power sources, his altered Whamp senses would allow him to sense potential couples and use his charisma to make introductions, and break down inhibitions. Look at Harry and Murphy, they really needed someone to kickstart them much earlier but there was no one there, instead Luccio and Kincaid got in the way.

Now Thomas first appearance in Death Masks at Biancas was as a beautiful youth in trunks and wings, one of the classic representation of Cupid. One of the others is as a baby. Of course Thomas prefers a sawn off shotgun to a bow and arrow, but that is a minor point. Never forget Thomas’s birthday is the 14 February, he was born for such a role.

Not sure what the White Court would make of this, probably be horrified, but is suspect they descend from the classic Cupid/Eros but were twisted to create succubi and incubi. The Court language is Etruscan and the Etruscan equivalent of Aphrodite/Vénus was Turan, whose mortal lover was Adonis/Atunis (meaning ‘Lord’), if you look at Adonis birth myth it is very dark and very White Court. Papa Raith could be Adonis or a scion of the same, he is old.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: morriswalters on July 24, 2020, 08:41:21 PM
After three quick reads I have come to the conclusion that Peace Talks is a mess. Battle Ground has some very heavy lifting to do to clean it up. Why not just take the book as he wrote it and and split it without adding anything more.  There are more loose ends then there are hairs on my head.

He's fairly explicit about the first feeding.  He simply ignores it.  He needed the baby to be a point of drama so he basically said "Canon, what canon?"

And his true love thing reads like true lust.  You don't turn love off and on like a spigot. And he's developed a fascination with threesomes.  He has two out of the oven and one in development with Murphy.  I'm as happy go lucky as the next guy, but this tires me out just reading it. At this rate Harry ain't gonna have any energy for the BAT.

And who in Gods name puts a cripple in charge of security?  Nobody seems to think it's absurd that Carlos can just barely walk but he in charge of the security detail. Jim on the other hand thought it was such a good idea he used it twice in the same book? And the White Council has a fornication detector?  Really?

And my favorite Keystone fools.
Quote
Without looking at him, she extended a hand. Corb reached into his robes and withdrew a length of chain maybe ten feet long from them. One end was attached to a steel band around the base of his throat, mostly concealed by his robes. He handed the other end to the Titanic woman.

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 275). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
A pet King, how precious.

Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Dina on July 24, 2020, 10:04:54 PM
Ok, I won't comment about the kinky parts but:

a) baby whampires. We had not previous canon about that. I mean, yes, until PT I would have imagined that pregnancy was normal as babies were human but we know they are not really humans. We know that they have a dormant parasite. And we don't know the process. I believe it's not so much a "first feed" as a way to be developed, like the pupa of an insect. It is needed to shape the parasite itself. But Maggie Sr. survived, even when the father of his child was very strong and the child himself has a very powerful parasite, so I guess her magic helped. And the baby grew stronger precisely because his mother was so strong.

b) Ramirez is a wizard, and a competent one. And Marcone has his own people. So yes, Ramirez has physical issues but he can give orders (he can think, he can talk) and he can do magic. Would you have a problem with Professor X in the charge, just because he cannot walk?

b)
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: BrainFireBob on July 24, 2020, 10:13:45 PM
And his true love thing reads like true lust.  You don't turn love off and on like a spigot. And he's developed a fascination with threesomes.  He has two out of the oven and one in development with Murphy.  I'm as happy go lucky as the next guy, but this tires me out just reading it. At this rate Harry ain't gonna have any energy for the BAT.

And who in Gods name puts a cripple in charge of security?  Nobody seems to think it's absurd that Carlos can just barely walk but he in charge of the security detail. Jim on the other hand thought it was such a good idea he used it twice in the same book? And the White Council has a fornication detector?  Really?


Few things.

The detector makes sense in a world with Whamps. In short, the way they used it. They were checking for White Court manipulation.

Also, it's not being in true love that protects you. It's an *act* of true love that entangles two souls together and gives them both protection. There's just a really efficient and common act. Self-sacrifice for love should do it too.

Also, regarding the baby: It consumes extra life force from the mother relative to a human baby. Posit: Thomas is wrong. It's not that WC are all-but infertile. It's that few humans have enough juice for the fetus to take. Bipolar Justine is actually probably at high pregnancy risk.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: morriswalters on July 24, 2020, 10:55:58 PM
Jim calls it out when he has Harry slow up for Carlos and Freydis slow down for Murphy. And very pointedly says that Carlos is in danger because he looks like prey.  And Martha Liberty is in a cast.  In a fight they die first. Particularly in the kind of fights Harry gets into.  I'm missing the cunning strategy here.  What's really amusing is that everybody talks about Murphy and Carlos gets a pass. Now on to the baby.
Quote
"Let me guess," I said. "The first feeding is lethal."

"Always," Thomas said.
This is fairly straight forward unless there is some way to read first feeding like it isn't really a first feeding, vampire style. This is pretty cut and dry for Jim.  Normally he weasels better.  It's sloppy. It won't keep me from getting the Kindle version and the audio book of Battle Ground.  But it is what it is.

@Dina
I quit reading X-Men while they were still wearing the yellow uniforms. When I next looked in in Logan he had lost his mind.  Excellent movie by the way.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Dina on July 24, 2020, 11:03:46 PM
@morriswalters: Xavier was a cripple when they wore the yellow and blue uniforms, so my example remains. He can't walk but he is super powerful.

Ramirez can still give commands to his team and cast. He looks like prey but we have seen Harry very hurt and still be a dangerous combatant. (And Martha is a High Council one. Don't dismiss her so easily)
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: forumghost on July 25, 2020, 01:36:36 PM
Y'know, I was just thinking... Could a baby Wampire feed on Justine while the child is being carried?

After all, she should still be protected as long as her last partner was Thomas, right? The baby's Hunger might get smothered in the metaphorical crib.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Mira on July 25, 2020, 03:11:38 PM
Quote
This is fairly straight forward unless there is some way to read first feeding like it isn't really a first feeding, vampire style. This is pretty cut and dry for Jim.  Normally he weasels better.  It's sloppy. It won't keep me from getting the Kindle version and the audio book of Battle Ground.  But it is what it is.

The first lethal feeding that really awakens and gets the Hunger Demon going happens at puberty unless true love burns it out... See Blood Rites.
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: The_Sibelis on July 26, 2020, 02:17:04 PM
You should put the summoning circle in the continuity errors thread.
someone pointed out years ago now(cannot remember who) that his circle actually changes from copper to bronze and back to copper before he ever had it upgraded. So yea, something's off about that..
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Mercutio on July 26, 2020, 04:49:42 PM
Inari went after Harry without knowing what was happening, so she (and other nascent Whampires) are still driven to feed before the Hunger reaches critical mass at the (ahem) culmination of the first sex act.  In the Bigfoot shorts the college whampire WAS feeding on River Shoulders kid, the kid (I forget both their names, sorry) was just too damn strong to die. 

So a larval Hunger is still driven too and actively eats, it just doesn't give all the perks/pitfalls until the Hunger gets it's first kill.

Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Mercutio on July 26, 2020, 05:11:59 PM
someone pointed out years ago now(cannot remember who) that his circle actually changes from copper to bronze and back to copper before he ever had it upgraded. So yea, something's off about that..

A somewhat cheap fix/Retcon (edit: or explanation) is the fact that these books are sometimes considered (or speculated to be in the forums) his journals written after the fact in the tradition starting all the way back with Merlin.  Harry could simply be remembering things wrong...

Oooorrrrrr... he may not have thrown the old circle away, I still have my old laptop sitting in a corner right now, I didn't just throw it away when I got this computer.  I do need to look up some things though, like if his circle was embedded in the floor...

Edit: He did refer to it as his OLD summoning circle, and keep in mind that while it's been 10 years since he had the appartment to us, for him it's been ... 2, 3 years?  My copy of Changes is a hardcopy and buried somewhere so I can't check that as easily as my kindle
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Mira on July 26, 2020, 08:13:50 PM
Inari went after Harry without knowing what was happening, so she (and other nascent Whampires) are still driven to feed before the Hunger reaches critical mass at the (ahem) culmination of the first sex act.  In the Bigfoot shorts the college whampire WAS feeding on River Shoulders kid, the kid (I forget both their names, sorry) was just too damn strong to die. 

So a larval Hunger is still driven too and actively eats, it just doesn't give all the perks/pitfalls until the Hunger gets it's first kill.

  I don't think Inari could help it, it may even coexist when she menstruates for the first time.  When she menstruates her body is able to reproduce..  Now there are a number of reasons why sex at that age may not be a good thing, but I doubt the Hunger takes that into account.  Hormones start firing and in White Court vamps it triggers the seduction urge big time.  The first time this happens the host is more or less at it's mercy, Lord Raith knows that, that is why he sent Inari to Harry.  To seduce him, have uncontrolled sex which would lead to his death and the full awakening of her Hunger..
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Mercutio on July 27, 2020, 03:52:55 AM
  I don't think Inari could help it, it may even coexist when she menstruates for the first time.  When she menstruates her body is able to reproduce..  Now there are a number of reasons why sex at that age may not be a good thing, but I doubt the Hunger takes that into account.  Hormones start firing and in White Court vamps it triggers the seduction urge big time.  The first time this happens the host is more or less at it's mercy, Lord Raith knows that, that is why he sent Inari to Harry.  To seduce him, have uncontrolled sex which would lead to his death and the full awakening of her Hunger..

I was just noting two separate instances of Hungers that weren't fully manifested being able to feed without killing the victims, when I read the initail post I somehow missed a LOT of things that were written, I was kinda distracted at the time... 

Looking at it now I'm kinda befuddled on how I came to some of the conclusions I made about the conclusions they made... and then I compounded it with my next post where I stated almost word for word part of what they said about the old copper circle... (Although I do stand by the possibility of it being a spare if there is no evidence of it being actually set into the stone somehow.)

Jeeze I leave the forums for 6 years... come back... and this is how I say hello after all this time.  :-\
Title: Re: Peace Talks Thoughts [SPOILERS]
Post by: Dina on July 27, 2020, 06:21:13 AM
Jeeze I leave the forums for 6 years... come back... and this is how I say hello after all this time.  :-\
Who cares? The important thing is that you are back. Just join the fun and don't worry  :D