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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: logistics on December 29, 2012, 02:19:59 PM
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This got a good reception in the "Have you ever guessed right" theory thread, so I thought I'd put it on the general board for comment after cleaning it up a bit. Feel free to tear it apart at will, but I think it's solid.
Harry has his first conversation with his "Unconscious" mind in Fool Moon. The figure is described:
Myself. Only better groomed, dressed in a mantled duster of black leather, not the sturdy, if style-less canvas that I wore. My double's pants and boots and shirt were all black as well, and they fit him as though tailor-made, rather then off-the-rack. His eyes were set deep, overshadowed by severe brows, and glittered with dark intelligence. His hair was neatly cut, and the short beard he wore emphasized the long lines of his face, the high cheekbones, the straight slash of his mouth, and the angular strength of his jaw. He stood as tall as I, as long limbed as I, but carried with him infinitely more confidence, raw knowledge, and strength.
Now when I first read the book, this description passed me by without notice. However, after a few rereads, something popped out at me. Harry, at this point, is wearing his original canvas duster. His "unconscious" mind is dressed in the iconic black leather duster he receives in this very book, only hours later in the narrative, but at this point he has yet to receive it from Susan or even know anything about it. To me this is a hint to both the reader and Harry that something is off. If you note during the dialog exchange between the two of them, Harry himself never comes up with the idea that this is his unconscious mind. The mysterious figure suggests that right off the bat.
Try rereading chapter 20 with the idea that Harry is talking to himself from a future vantage point....not his unconscious mind. Here are a few gems that pop out from the dialog:
"So you're saying you're wiser than me? Smarter than me?
"I probably am, in a lot of ways," my double said, "but that's not my job, and it's not why I'm here."
"I see. So what are you doing here, then? You're going to tell me how I'm going to meet three spirits of Harry Past, Present, and Future?"
My double slipped in front of me again, apparently without needing to cross the intervening space.
"It isn't that simple, Harry. No matter where you go, there you are."
"Look, I've had a long night."
"I know," my double said "Believe me, I know."
Note that this phrase - "No matter where you go, there you are." was uttered by Uriel at the tail end of Ghost Story, as his little bit of wisdom to Harry. Also note that the whole teleporting trick seems *very* similar to how he moved around in Ghost Story.
My double knelt on the other side of the apparition.
"Nothing, Harry," he said. "What happened at the police station wasn't your fault."
"Like hell it wasn't," I snarled. "If I'd have been faster, gotten there sooner, or if I'd told her the truth from the beginning -"
"But you didn't," my double interjected. "And you had some pretty damned compelling reasons not to. Ease up on yourself man. You can't change the past."
"Easy for you to say," I snarled
"No, it isn't," my double said quietly. "Concentrate on what you will do, not what you should have done."
Once you get rid of the whole 'unconscious' angle the apparition itself suggested, the conversation just seems to scream out to me "time travel irony". The figure talking to the Harry in Full Moon is obviously much more mature, confident, and composed then any Harry we've really met yet. Only the Harry of Cold Days seems to even begin to approach the vast gulf in attitude and maturity between the two figures.
If you reread the further interactions with the mysterious figure in later books, he generally argues against the sensibilities of whatever the current Harry is thinking. Getting him to consider options he considers off the table - for instance using Lash as a resource during the events of Dead Beat.
While I don't have any concrete idea of just what the figure is trying to do exactly, I get the general feeling that he is trying to mess with the past in a very circumspect way. He tweaks Harry's attitude towards certain ideas, and frankly gets him to behave differently then he otherwise would have. This sounds suspiciously similar to how Bob suggests handling time travel during their impromptu (and out of the blue) discussion on the subject in Proven Guilty...right before Little Chicago was mysteriously repaired.
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The problem with this, is that the unconscious mind interacts with Lashiel later in the series. So it isn't just Harry that has seen him.
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"Concentrate on what you will do, not what you should have done."
Heh...Vadderung said that the best way to change history is to affect the future.
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The problem with this, is that the unconscious mind interacts with Lashiel later in the series. So it isn't just Harry that has seen him.
I did think about that. Lash never really acknowledges Harry's interpretation that the figure is his subconscious mind. She addresses both figures as 'Gentlemen'. If you pay attention to the interaction between the two, the mysterious figure suggests, but makes no actual choices. He talks about resisting Lash's temptation, but ultimately the choice is up to "Conscious" Harry. The mental 'Key' to unlock the shackles around Lash comes from the Harry of Dead Beat, not the mysterious figure. This would also be perfectly true if Harry was talking to his past self.
To add further weight to the interpretation, Lash admits in White Night that she views time as mostly an illusion. Speaking to a Future Harry as part of bargaining wouldn't be a huge deal to her, and I can well imagine Future Harry's first bargain with her to not directly tip off his past self to what he's up to. He admits to talking to her for months, but gives no specifics about *what* they were discussing.
The figure once again gets Harry to commit to doing an action that goes against the grain of his present sensibilities, something he wouldn't otherwise do or even consider.
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unless f future harry left his shadow in his own mind like lash i would be posible if lash come back for harry to learn how to do it if it is abit thin.... ;)
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unless f future harry left his shadow in his own mind like lash i would be posible if lash come back for harry to learn how to do it if it is abit thin.... ;)
What if Future Harry is the parasite O_o
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The problem with this, is that the unconscious mind interacts with Lashiel later in the series. So it isn't just Harry that has seen him.
Maybe not...who's to say That harry isn't going to be able to do some sort of Astral projection through time?
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Ok, feel free to ignore this-
idea one: youre on to something. future harry is trying to reach younger harry, thru his subconcious
idea two: how? well there is something that likely exists outside of time, the mantle.
idea three: now theres been no suggestion that a knight can do this normally, but its also been specualted harry can change the mantle with soulfire...
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Ok, feel free to ignore this-
idea one: youre on to something. future harry is trying to reach younger harry, thru his subconcious
idea two: how? well there is something that likely exists outside of time, the mantle.
idea three: now theres been no suggestion that a knight can do this normally, but its also been specualted harry can change the mantle with soulfire...
Dear god, my observation and Serack's theory have encouraged the Duck....
It feels weird to be the one who started a chain of speculation.
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Bwahahahahquackqauck!
welcome to the club :D
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i'd say it has less to do with time travel as it does residual self image. basically subconscious harry always wanted to be wearing a cool leather duster. when he plugs into the matrix he gets leather, cause its what he wants an likes. susan is just female and totally in love so she's smart enough to pick up on harrys subconscious hint drops harry himself is too stupid to outright tell her. psychoanalystize ;D shrunk?
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Sounds dumbass even to my while I type...but I like like the symetry (sp.!)
Fallen Angels (Denarians) have shadows. Copies that have a life of their own.
Harry has a shadow (subconscious harry). Which can interact without his knowledge with other shadows
Harry part angel?
Calling people's opinions "dumbass" isn't permitted here. We require that posters treat each other with respect. --Priscilla
Okay, clearly *I'm* the dumbass. You were talking about your own theory. Carry on. --Priscilla
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I like it a lot, if that helps any.
Also, I don't think it needs astral projection or Harry casting a shadow in his own mind; we see in GP that it's possible to touch people's dreams from the NN, the Nightmare does it. Time-travelling Harry in the NN contacting his past self's dreams would work for me, as past-Harry is fairly solidly unconscious in all those instances iirc. And as far as Lash seeing time-travelling Harry goes, that could fit under the heading of the things she says he won't understand until he dies.
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I find this idea very interesting.
My suggestion is that IF Harry really is doing this, then maybe it's a form of Astral Projection. His physical body stays in place, but his soul/spirit makes a time travel trip back to speak with his younger self at various critical moments.
How? Well, GS showed how. When he was in his 'Coma' his soul traveled out like a ghost. Perhaps he learned that this was something he could do voluntarily, using magic. All he would need is a focus, a link back to his younger self, a kind of temporal Thaumaturgy.
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Sounds dumbass even to my while I type...but I like like the symetry (sp.!)
Fallen Angels (Denarians) have shadows. Copies that have a life of their own.
Harry has a shadow (subconscious harry). Which can interact without his knowledge with other shadows
Harry part angel?
darker thought, that is the source harry draws from to fuel his soulfire spells, each time he uses them he becomes a bit closer to ID Harry. Thus as corrupts the original intention of the soulfire (creation) it corrupts him to his darker ID. New hypothesis time!
Leave it to Harry to take something seemingly pure and taint it, just as he purified some taint earlier.
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I find this idea very interesting.
My suggestion is that IF Harry really is doing this, then maybe it's a form of Astral Projection. His physical body stays in place, but his soul/spirit makes a time travel trip back to speak with his younger self at various critical moments.
How? Well, GS showed how. When he was in his 'Coma' his soul traveled out like a ghost. Perhaps he learned that this was something he could do voluntarily, using magic. All he would need is a focus, a link back to his younger self, a kind of temporal Thaumaturgy.
he uses the flashback of his life in the second before he dies to try and change things ;D also been thinking maybe odins favor will be for harry to play santa clause one christmas.. to hilariously results ;D
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darker thought, that is the source harry draws from to fuel his soulfire spells, each time he uses them he becomes a bit closer to ID Harry. Thus as corrupts the original intention of the soulfire (creation) it corrupts him to his darker ID. New hypothesis time!
Leave it to Harry to take something seemingly pure and taint it, just as he purified some taint earlier.
how do you get darker by using power power of light ? i can see hellfire making harry darker in goash story harryused his soul use magic and i didn' change the person he is
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It all depends the Mantle could be changed by soulfire or soulfire could be changed by the Mantle or nothing could happen. I never even thought of soulbfire as a pure force. I always saw it as a neutral that he controls. And not to be cynical, but every thing can be tainted just as everything can be purified
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I hate to even open this can of worms but it fits with the line of reasoning from earlier posts. Little Chicago: Harry projected himself outside his body using that device.
If Little Chicago still exists could it be used to breech the 4th dimension? Maybe Harry can leave his body without it now that he has more experience being out of body. LC is just a focus, though extremely complicated, magic can be performed without a focus.
Sits back to watch the speculation.
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I hate to even open this can of worms but it fits with the line of reasoning from earlier posts. Little Chicago: Harry projected himself outside his body using that device.
If Little Chicago still exists could it be used to breech the 4th dimension? Maybe Harry can leave his body without it now that he has more experience being out of body. LC is just a focus, though extremely complicated, magic can be performed without a focus.
Sits back to watch the speculation.
LC is a molten puddle of goo under Marcone's new building.
however, that doesnt mean Harry coudl nto build a more advacned item in the future
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LC is a molten puddle of goo under Marcone's new building.
however, that doesnt mean Harry coudl nto build a more advacned item in the future
That is one of the reasons I hesitated to speculate. Is there a WOJ about that? Now that you mention it, it seems like something he would say.
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Hed have to really modify to make it work. He had to know all of the details of the current Big Chicago to make but even then it wasn't perfect. He would have to remember the details of Chicago from that time to rebuild it and possible use it as a time machine
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Unless someone saved it
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LC is a molten puddle of goo under Marcone's new building.
however, that doesnt mean Harry coudl nto build a more advacned item in the future
True. However, even if LC were not lost, it would not serve as a focus to go back to the events of Fool Moon - Chicago changes, Harry needed to update LC regularly to keep it from being obsolete. It would only be useful to go back to the time period for LC's last update remaining viable; no earlier, no later.
*Mostly ninja'd by roteral
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True. However, even if LC were not lost, it would not serve as a focus to go back to the events of Fool Moon - Chicago changes, Harry needed to update LC regularly to keep it from being obsolete. It would only be useful to go back to the time period for LC's last update remaining viable; no earlier, no later.
*Mostly ninja'd by roteral
you explained it better
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True. However, even if LC were not lost, it would not serve as a focus to go back to the events of Fool Moon - Chicago changes, Harry needed to update LC regularly to keep it from being obsolete. It would only be useful to go back to the time period for LC's last update remaining viable; no earlier, no later.
*Mostly ninja'd by roteral
I thought the same thing after reading my own post. LC would preserve a snapshot in time. It might function within a certain window to the past depending on modifications. A person with eidetic memory might have a shot at time travel based on this premise, but the premise is speculative, I do love seeing what everyoone thinks,
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A person with eidetic memory might have a shot at time travel based on this premise, but the premise is speculative, I do love seeing what everyoone thinks,
Harry has had a person with eidetic memory in his head for some significant part of the series, come to think of it.
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not to menchin that he has his case files book but realy harry wouldn't need a lc to time travel he would needto make a littel harry lol of exactly how he appeared at the time when he wanted travel to
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Did anyone else find it odd that the garment fit him perfectly? Even better than the one Susan bought him?
And where do you think Molly bought it from on the internet that she could have a custom made leather duster delivered in under 6 hours from time of order?
Elves perhaps?
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Did anyone else find it odd that the garment fit him perfectly? Even better than the one Susan bought him?
And where do you think Molly bought it from on the internet that she could have a custom made leather duster delivered in under 6 hours from time of order?
Elves perhaps?
Or a place in Chicago who got paid A LOT by a limitless credit card?
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Sounds dumbass even to my while I type...but I like like the symetry (sp.!)
Fallen Angels (Denarians) have shadows. Copies that have a life of their own.
Harry has a shadow (subconscious harry). Which can interact without his knowledge with other shadows
Harry part angel?
Calling people's opinions "dumbass" isn't permitted here. We require that posters treat each other with respect. --Priscilla
Okay, clearly *I'm* the dumbass. You were talking about your own theory. Carry on. --Priscilla
No worries Priscilla. Glad you are keeping me us in line : )
Just to carry on with the baseless speculation...could Harry's double pain point headaches result from two "shadows" in his head fighting for real estate?
Horrible pic. Overused meme. I couldn't resist posting. I feel great shame.
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Harry has had a person with eidetic memory in his head for some significant part of the series, come to think of it.
Yes, exactly correct. If we want to pursue this rabbit down its hole. Lash can recreate rooms and settings exactly as she perceived them. She was present at the construction and use of LC so she is familiar with the method. I feel a little ilke a conspiracy theorist, but it is a fun line of thought.
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Yes, exactly correct. If we want to pursue this rabbit down its hole. Lash can recreate rooms and settings exactly as she perceived them. She was present at the construction and use of LC so she is familiar with the method. I feel a little ilke a conspiracy theorist, but it is a fun line of thought.
what is your theory precisely? that lash will help recreate LC? that due to increased influence she convinced harrys subconscious mind to sleepwalk and fix LC?
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I hate to even open this can of worms but it fits with the line of reasoning from earlier posts. Little Chicago: Harry projected himself outside his body using that device.
If Little Chicago still exists could it be used to breech the 4th dimension? Maybe Harry can leave his body without it now that he has more experience being out of body. LC is just a focus, though extremely complicated, magic can be performed without a focus.
Sits back to watch the speculation.
i WAGed that it would be used as a thaumaturgical springboard to travel back to chicago the way it used to be. like a little piece of history to use as the connection. but a duck nailed me with a woj that little chicago would be totally destroyed in a fire, though he never precisely says it was... its still great theory based on sound magical processes.
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Does this fit with all that subconscious Harry says though? I could've sworn he says to not trust Tara West in Full Moon. So, unless she plays a role in some future story, that would seem like a very odd seed to plant. I am sure I could nitpick some other conversations that just don't make much sense if it was an astral projecting/time traveling Harry.
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Does this fit with all that subconscious Harry says though? I could've sworn he says to not trust Tara West in Full Moon. So, unless she plays a role in some future story, that would seem like a very odd seed to plant. I am sure I could nitpick some other conversations that just don't make much sense if it was an astral projecting/time traveling Harry.
WellI remember hearing once that Terra's story isn't done yet, so that either means shell come back tod help or hinder Harry. If it was Future Harry, that means that Terra probably hurts Harry in the future
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There's no way Tera West isn't going to come back. Her little Were-cub must be about 11 or so now? The Line Will Not End!
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Heh...Vadderung said that the best way to change history is to affect the future.
Now that's an angle I hadn't considered when putting this together, but it fits. Overcome the temporal inertia problem Odin mentioned by having your past self make all the changes.
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I'm sorry, but it seems to me a lot of your theory hinges on subconscious!Harry wearing the duster before the duster makes an appearance. Doesn't the new coat, the one that is definitely not the black leather duster, mean that the future!Harry you say is subconscious!Harry comes from before Cold days?
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i WAGed that it would be used as a thaumaturgical springboard to travel back to chicago the way it used to be. like a little piece of history to use as the connection. but a duck nailed me with a woj that little chicago would be totally destroyed in a fire, though he never precisely says it was... its still great theory based on sound magical processes.
I haven't fleshed my "theory" out. It was more like stream of consciousness suposition. I had thought that Lash could potentially recreate LC, or any setting she was familiar with. I was honestly embarrassed to post that thought. I have seen LC posts degenerate into wild speculation, based on a very thin premise. I suppose I don't have the courage of my own convictions when I started speculating about LC being a potential device for time travel.
There are couple of really big IFS in my "theory"
IF#1: Time travel via mental projection. The OP supposes that Harry was able to project himself back in time into the role of his own subconcious. I like this theory, mostly because of the cool factor, but the dialogue with Harry sounds a lot like a more experienced Harry offering advice to his younger self. Accepting that as apremise I started speculating about how this might be accomplished.
Harry has projected himself outside his own body on a couple of occasions. Most recently when he was "mostly dead" and before when he used LC. It greatly resembled Astral Projection when he did it in WN. He placed himself in a deep trance (an unconscious state) and using LC as a focus was able to project his thoughts (his sub-conscious) into the city of Chicago. This was accomplished by using a scale model of Chicago (LC) in a meticulous recreation of its PRESENT state.
IF#2: Recreating LC in a past point in time would allow Harry to project his thoughts into said past. Ms. Duck pointed out the LC is a "puddle of goo". I speculated about what a person with an eidetic memory might be able to do and Neurovore pointed out that Harry may have Lash still in his head (she has an eidetic memory as exhibited in DB) and she can project detailed recreations of anything she has seen.
If#3: Lash is still in Harry's brain.
If Lash is still in there, she could recreate LC or a simulacrum thereof inside Harrys mind to use a focus. We saw Harry do a rather complex summoning ritual, without a focus object when he summoned Mab in GS. He did it all in his own mind. If Lash were to help Harry visualize Chicago, or any place else for that matter, at a certain point in time he would have the opportunity to project his sub-concious to that place. There is no place that Lash is more familiar with than Harry's brain, she has been there for years (maybe).
So, IF all of this is true, Lash could at some future point create an image of Harry's state of mind via his own memories as it existed in FM and future Harry could project his sub-conscious back to that point in time to give past Harry a pep talk at a critical decision point in his life. This could allow him to affect the future and avoid many of the dangerous variables of time travel like the "butterfly efect" as the location of interaction would be his own mind. It also has the elegance of him not having to lie to himself. it really is his own sub-concious mind with whom he is having the conversation, just not his present sub-conscious.
Whew. I'm not sure even I believe this but it seems to fit with a number of things we have been shown about the laws of magic. And it's cool! Also, Logistics is the guy who gets credit for this line of thinking. My ideas were based on his seed. He may not agree with what I have posted.
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I'm sorry, but it seems to me a lot of your theory hinges on subconscious!Harry wearing the duster before the duster makes an appearance. Doesn't the new coat, the one that is definitely not the black leather duster, mean that the future!Harry you say is subconscious!Harry comes from before Cold days?
From my understanding, the new coat looks very similar to the original leather duster with only a few minor cosmetic differences, but fits even better then the original. Which I take as additional evidence, actually now that I think about it.
From page 390-391 of Cold Days, the new coat description:
I found myself smiling and held up a long coat of heavy black leather, like one of those old cowboy dusters, except for the long mantle hanging down over its shoulders. It smelled like new leather and shone without a scuff mark to be seen.
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The weight of the leather settling around me was familiar and comforting, but this coat wasn't the same as my old coat. The sleeves were a little longer, and fit better. The shoulders were a little narrower, and actually matched up with mine. The mantle hung down a bit more. The pockets were in a slightly different place.
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IF#1: Time travel via mental projection. The OP supposes that Harry was able to project himself back in time into the role of his own subconcious.
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Just to clarify, I don't honestly think that the Mysterious Figure (need to come up with a better name...how about Future!Harry) is actually in his own subconscious or influencing it in any way. I don't think Harry has ever talked to his own subconscious. Thinking back to my barely remembered psych courses, the entire idea of talking to your subconsciousness just doesn't seem plausible, even in a hypnotized state.
Personally, I think Future!Harry proposed the whole 'I am your Unconscious Mind' as a way to head off any speculation from Present!Harry into guessing what is going on. Future!Harry presumably knows how he thinks, and he's been notoriously non-introspective for almost the entire series. Getting him to think of his future self as some dark aspect of his mind would be exactly what a Future!Harry would want, as his own psychological hangups and defenses would shut down any deep thought on the matter. This allows Future!Harry to influence the past without anyone - especially his past self, noticing.
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Time travel via mental projection. The OP supposes that Harry was able to project himself back in time into the role of his own subconcious. I like this theory, mostly because of the cool factor, but the dialogue with Harry sounds a lot like a more experienced Harry offering advice to his younger self. Accepting that as apremise I started speculating about how this might be accomplished.
this actualy fits into my own ideas of what a mantle is , and how it works.
I think the mantles, bob, the archive are essentially different versions of the same thing- programs/ databases made of pure infromation, and to some degree stored in the NN.
we know, from Jim, that other versions of Bob exist. We can speculate, from Jim's evil laugh, that some of them are much more impressive then Bob.
Bob's a PC. single system, stored in a single place, but pretty awesome
now whats the archive? its obviously not all in the head of that poor little girl, it wont fit. Its a network of some kind, with some parts in Ivy, some stored in her ancestors in the past, some potential in the future. this givers her some level of precogntion; thats why she got so upset about not being able to help harry in changes. Now lets go one step farther-
a cloud/ distributed system. imagine avst system, so large that no sinbgle person's past/ present/ future selves can possibly hold the thing. A system capable of calculating weather/ environemnt/ biological changes on a global scale. Imagine Giaia.
some part of it is hosted in mother winter, im sure. Some lesser part in Mab. Now some in Molly. But the same holds true for summer. Its all one ,mantle, just different aspects of split among the now six hosts.
Each person is a distinct entity, but each has access to the central server.. and the server has access to them, which is why they start to resemble twins even when they arent bioligicaly related at all; they are all different points on the same curve.
now Harry has some limtied access to this. He cant use it now, but in the future he might be able too, with propper experience and some soulfire to 'hack' the system.
he now has a tool for both seeing the future, and changing the past.. as long as hes damn carefull with it.
and so Priscellie can eyebrow me for calling myself a dumbass too, i shall now call myself a dumbass too because I just figured out how future Harry could have fixed little chicago. And why/how Molly's feelings could infleunce Mab. Shes part of the system now, after all.
Oo
oO
someone please tell this theory makes no sense at all :)
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Ms. Duck,
I think your Model is flawed (as are most models of systems).
I do believe that everything of a certain bent has a connection. But I believe that free will throws a curve into the system that you don't take into consideration. I think that's the wild card in the whole system that isn't supposed to include humans. Maybe they are the "Users" (to take a term from Tron) of the system?
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There's no way Tera West isn't going to come back. Her little Were-cub must be about 11 or so now? The Line Will Not End!
Or so legend has it. Everything Chauncey says about that curse after "legend has it" could be a pack of lies that Chauncey is truthfully reporting was once told as a legend. So we have no solid reason to believe in it.
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how do you get darker by using power power of light ? i can see hellfire making harry darker in goash story harryused his soul use magic and i didn' change the person he is
I would argue that to some extent the intention of the power use matters as much as the source of the power. The use of soulfire to create a construct that kills, however accidentally, would be a misuse of the power. On the other hand the use of Hellfire to defend another, without killing, is good. Simplistic I know, but it illustrates my point.
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Ms. Duck,
I think your Model is flawed (as are most models of systems).
I do believe that everything of a certain bent has a connection. But I believe that free will throws a curve into the system that you don't take into consideration. I think that's the wild card in the whole system that isn't supposed to include humans. Maybe they are the "Users" (to take a term from Tron) of the system?
im not sure where free will woudl enter the question. the constructs themselves- Bob, the Archive, the mantle- have none.
the owner/ host of the construct has some, at least until they give up. I think Mab has been fighting the issue since day 1, and will never give up, just because she's Mab.
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I would argue that to some extent the intention of the power use matters as much as the source of the power. The use of soulfire to create a construct that kills, however accidentally, would be a misuse of the power. On the other hand the use of Hellfire to defend another, without killing, is good. Simplistic I know, but it illustrates my point.
This is my point exactly, and it turns the question into will Harry corrupt soulfire or change the winter mantle first?
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I'm sorry, but it seems to me a lot of your theory hinges on subconscious!Harry wearing the duster before the duster makes an appearance. Doesn't the new coat, the one that is definitely not the black leather duster, mean that the future!Harry you say is subconscious!Harry comes from before Cold days?
Hence the phrase that seems to be more important that any other... "No matter where you go, there you are." Somewhere in this series (I forget where) there is a conversation between Harry and someone else where it's stated that linear time really doesn't exist, but that's how a mortal's mind perceives time. It could have been Uriel, or maybe Leanansidhe. I think it was in Ghost Story. Einstein would agree since he spent his last few years as a scientist stating that past, present and future all exist simultaneously. They are a single existence.
In other words... "No matter where you go, there you are."
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Hence the phrase that seems to be more important that any other... "No matter where you go, there you are." Somewhere in this series (I forget where) there is a conversation between Harry and someone else where it's stated that linear time really doesn't exist, but that's how a mortal's mind perceives time. It could have been Uriel, or maybe Leanansidhe. I think it was in Ghost Story. Einstein would agree since he spent his last few years as a scientist stating that past, present and future all exist simultaneously. They are a single existence.
In other words... "No matter where you go, there you are."
It twas Uriel, page 470 hard cover copy, chapter fifty one.
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im not sure where free will woudl enter the question. the constructs themselves- Bob, the Archive, the mantle- have none.
the owner/ host of the construct has some, at least until they give up. I think Mab has been fighting the issue since day 1, and will never give up, just because she's Mab.
I think he's saying that there is a system and humans are the users. The system cannot be used by itself but by including mortals into the equation it can. Beings like Mab and Titania bend people to use the system in the way they want to, but ultimately it is up to the will of the user.
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I think he's saying that there is a system and humans are the users. The system cannot be used by itself but by including mortals into the equation it can. Beings like Mab and Titania bend people to use the system in the way they want to, but ultimately it is up to the will of the user.
well if one is speaking of the entire series, maybe? im mstill confused the system im talking about is the information system holding the 'mantles'
the only people in it are the queens and the knights, and theres not much of 'people' left in the queens i think.
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i think that they mean mab is trying to fight the mantel??? ???
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i think that they mean mab is trying to fight the mantel??? ???
quite plasuble. she may have some experience, havign done it for a few thousand years.
you can allways choose to fight. doesnt mean you can win.
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i think that they mean mab is trying to fight the mantel??? ???
thats actually the greatest outright WAG i've ever heard... yes i believe she fights the mantle of cold, calculating, ruthless queen...
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Mab could have become queen out of nesscity and not free will so that would explain why she would fight it.
PS: I have been on the forum for maybe a month but I still don't know some of the abbreviations so what does WAG mean?
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Mab could have become queen out of nesscity and not free will so that would explain why she would fight it.
PS: I have been on the forum for maybe a month but I still don't know some of the abbreviations so what does WAG mean?
Wild Ass Guess.
Here's a link to the dictionary if you want to know the meanings of some of the other terms we use: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27282.0.html
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Thanks
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thats actually the greatest outright WAG i've ever heard... yes i believe she fights the mantle of cold, calculating, ruthless queen...
she has shown some compassion if a little and we know mother winter has littel respect for mab becoming to getting soft and spend time with humans i'm not say thatmab has control over the mantel but maybe she tries
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I believe she does try too but its hard to fight it. And that shows free will
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To add a little more to the Time Travel or Traveled theory:
In Cold Days, when Harry and DR entered to first room under the island: Harry realized that this room was the place where his body was being maintained during GS. DR looked at Harry and repeated 'Memories-Reflection'several times... I think that there was more significance than just 'an internal monologue' as Harry thought.
DR could be hinting to Harry that maybe Harry had been in that room before (besides GS)... maybe as Merlin? ... Or in Merlin's mantle? Maybe the title 'Warren' is a bit more than a title... It could be a mantle...
Harry had been told by Odin and the Gatekeeper that his near-death or death-resurrection experience had changed him... Harry even felt that he was changed... changed to what?
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the title is warden and sometimes a spade is just a spade. and other times a door is ajar.. ;)
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Yeah the term mantle is generally applied to positions in the faerie courts but if Harry was Merlin, the rest would make sense
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Yeah the term mantle is generally applied to positions in the faerie courts but if Harry was Merlin, the rest would make sense
merlin i think created a mantle that passed on to the position merlin but because the position became skewed from what the mantle represents it was lost, separating the title position from the mantle itself, harry will retrieve this lost mantle maybe?
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I'm not too sure about that. A mantle is something that contains power and if a wizard is strong enough to be considered for the position of Merlin, they wouldn't need that power. I think we are putting to much importance on the existance of mantles. It would be kinda of cheap if every power up Jim gives to his characters was mantle based. If Harry isn't the Merlin, he wouldn't gain the Merlins power through a mantle. It would be more realistic if Harry obtains Merlins journels and learns from those
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I'm not too sure about that. A mantle is something that contains power and if a wizard is strong enough to be considered for the position of Merlin, they wouldn't need that power. I think we are putting to much importance on the existance of mantles. It would be kinda of cheap if every power up Jim gives to his characters was mantle based. If Harry isn't the Merlin, he wouldn't gain the Merlins power through a mantle. It would be more realistic if Harry obtains Merlins journels and learns from those
the merlin wouldn't need merlins power? thats kinda backwards. i agree too much emphasis has been placed on the whole 'mantle' thing but the mantle represents a position, a seat of power and authority. that the position of merlin doesn't have its own mantle is highly unlikely. hell langtry could very well be cloaked in said mantle already and its just kept on the down low.
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Lol sorry if that confused you. Power in the form of a mantle is inherited, while power from a title is earned. THE Merlin of the White Council earns his power through training its not given to him from a mantle. Otherwise a regular human could be given the mantle and become super powerful without the training and discipline they would require to control it
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Love the theory.
I would very much prefer this version of time travel than some plot trivializing traditional time travel nonsense where Harry completely changes something.
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I think it might be possible that sub-conscious Harry/future Harry was simply the earliest expression of Harry's pre-cog abilities.
Reading the scenes I always got the feeling that id Harry was much more like "potential future Harry" than like what you would expect just the id parts of Harry to look like.
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Lol sorry if that confused you. Power in the form of a mantle is inherited, while power from a title is earned. THE Merlin of the White Council earns his power through training its not given to him from a mantle. Otherwise a regular human could be given the mantle and become super powerful without the training and discipline they would require to control it
my point is it could have prerequisites to holding the mantle, like i'm sure the kringle mantle has a stipulation that he must perform christmas duties. an WK must follow winter law. the merlin mantle might require one to have a certain set of base principles one must already possess to claim it.
plot trivializing traditional time travel nonsense where Harry completely changes something.
Novikov self-consistency principle (http://en.m.wiki) is the key.
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for example, a time traveler could rescue people from a disaster, and replace them with realistic corpses if history recorded that bodies of victims had been found. Provided that the rescuees were not known to have survived prior to the date that the time traveler stepped into the time machine (perhaps because they were taken forward in time to a later date, or because their identities were hidden), the time traveler's motivation to travel back in time and save them will be preserved. In this example, it must always have been true that the people were rescued by a time traveler and replaced with realistic corpses, and there would be no "original" history where they were actually killed, since the notion of changing the past is deemed impossible by the self-consistency principle.
jim has a big enough geek penis to know how to use time travel effectively.
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I'm not too sure about that. A mantle is something that contains power and if a wizard is strong enough to be considered for the position of Merlin, they wouldn't need that power. I think we are putting to much importance on the existance of mantles. It would be kinda of cheap if every power up Jim gives to his characters was mantle based. If Harry isn't the Merlin, he wouldn't gain the Merlins power through a mantle. It would be more realistic if Harry obtains Merlins journels and learns from those
Lol sorry if that confused you. Power in the form of a mantle is inherited, while power from a title is earned. THE Merlin of the White Council earns his power through training its not given to him from a mantle. Otherwise a regular human could be given the mantle and become super powerful without the training and discipline they would require to control it
There are Mantles and mantles. The Fae Knight/Queen Mantles are magical constructs which seem to be discrete entities from their hosts. These can be passed around and grant overt magical powers. Little "m" mantles are a little more mundane - one could don a mantle of authority for example - there is power in the position/title itself rather than giving an actual magical or physical power boost.
The title of Merlin probably doesn't come with a magical power boost but it definitely comes with the power of authority and political weight. The position might also come with secrets, special access or special contacts not privy to others - that is power in a different form.
The position of Warden is a little more ambiguous. Ebenezer already referred to the position as a mantle, but I think he meant it as people normally do - a position with special rights and responsibilities. The mantle of Warden does seem to come with its own power boost in the way of limited intellectus, but its real "power" is in giving Harry control over the prison and Demon Reach. He's been granted authority rather than a direct power boost.
So yeah, when people talk about Mantles or mantles I think we need to clarify what we mean: if we are regarding a specific role as being a Magical construct with some cosmic purpose, or a more mundane position. It's important because higher powered beings in DF have consistently been in or previously held positions of authority and/or responsibility. It's almost as if they are inseparable past a certain point, so Harry WILL most likely gain extra responsibilities for every power-up he gets but not every mantle in DF is a magical contsruct (that would be silly).
Also, it's been said over and over and over, but power does not immediately or necessarily mean quantifiable magical energy units. Power fundamentally is the ability to act. There is physical power, magical power (in seemingly quantifiable units), there is knowledge, there is wisdom, there is authority, and probably many other forms of power.
In the books we see that Harry has much more metaphysical mass than most Wizards, yet others who don't have as much are far more powerful than Harry is because they have authority, knowledge, and wisdom. For example, Luccio is able to do more powerful fire spells than Harry with less energy because she has finer control. Same thing with the Archive, she has crazy amounts of knowledge that allows her to wield magic in ways Harry probably couldn't imagine. Harry could beat Fix butt naked because of his absolute knowledge of his surroundings. However, Marcone is more powerful than all of these people in that he can hire the best hit-men in the world to do his bidding since after all, money is power.
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that was a succinct statement on the subtle nuances of power. ;)
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It twas Uriel, page 470 hard cover copy, chapter fifty one.
Well, there you go. There's no fear of paradox (which Vadderung claimed to be over-rated anyway). Time travel exists within the individual with no direct contact to the outside world. The only affectual (sic?) design is insight and perspective.
If you're "future" Harry and you want to change something instrumental that happened in the past....Good luck, because inertia (Law of Conservation of History) will likely be too strong to overcome. However, if you wish to prepare for some unknown event yet to be accomplished, your future self can come back to your past self (via your subconscience) and push you in the desired direction to secure the knowledge your future self needs (but doesn't yet have). It's not about changing a particular event. It's about gaining the knowledge to better prepare for when that event is to occur.
As Vadderung said. To rewrite history it's easier to change the future (paraphrase).
If you haven't grasped onto this yet...try this pseudo-scenario:
Future Harry learns that "So-and-So" is behind an attempt to blow up Demonreach. However, he's never even heard of this "so-and-so." So future Harry time travels (and since past, present, and future all exist in tandem...he side steps) to past Harry's subconscience and tells him to learn all about "So-and-so." When Future Harry returns to his reality...wow...look at all that needed insight.
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Well, there you go. There's no fear of paradox (which Vadderung claimed to be over-rated anyway). Time travel exists within the individual with no direct contact to the outside world. The only affectual (sic?) design is insight and perspective.
If you're "future" Harry and you want to change something instrumental that happened in the past....Good luck, because inertia (Law of Conservation of History) will likely be too strong to overcome. However, if you wish to prepare for some unknown event yet to be accomplished, your future self can come back to your past self (via your subconscience) and push you in the desired direction to secure the knowledge your future self needs (but doesn't yet have). It's not about changing a particular event. It's about gaining the knowledge to better prepare for when that event is to occur.
As Vadderung said. To rewrite history it's easier to change the future (paraphrase).
If you haven't grasped onto this yet...try this pseudo-scenario:
Future Harry learns that "So-and-So" is behind an attempt to blow up Demonreach. However, he's never even heard of this "so-and-so." So future Harry time travels (and since past, present, and future all exist in tandem...he side steps) to past Harry's subconscience and tells him to learn all about "So-and-so." When Future Harry returns to his reality...wow...look at all that needed insight.
As far as this goes, I do think Harry is being a bit more proactive in changing things then just acquiring information. The figure actively pushes him into new ways of thinking about the situations he finds himself in. He gets the Present Harry to do things he otherwise would not do. But because his past self is still making the choices, then the inertia problem doesn't apply. I suppose that's just a different way of phrasing the same thing you just stated, so way for me being redundant. Future Harry is changing his past's perspective and choices, and presumably altering his present in so doing. Or perhaps making alternate realities/possibilities, like a reality sized Quantum Superposition - Odin's commentary on twinned universes seems to be kinda like multiverse theory.
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As far as this goes, I do think Harry is being a bit more proactive in changing things then just acquiring information. The figure actively pushes him into new ways of thinking about the situations he finds himself in. He gets the Present Harry to do things he otherwise would not do. But because his past self is still making the choices, then the inertia problem doesn't apply. I suppose that's just a different way of phrasing the same thing you just stated, so way for me being redundant. Future Harry is changing his past's perspective and choices, and presumably altering his present in so doing. Or perhaps making alternate realities/possibilities, like a reality sized Quantum Superposition - Odin's commentary on twinned universes seems to be kinda like multiverse theory.
Heh...try this one for more proactive. Future Harry goes back to Past Harry and tells him to hide his 44 caliber gun in Lara Raith's office when he and Luccio go to visit in Turn Coat. Then, down the road, Future Harry visits Lara Raith to intimidate her and agrees to leave all his weapons etc. with security. When they get to Laura's office, he pulls the hidden 44 out from where it was hidden and starts negotiating.
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Heh...try this one for more proactive. Future Harry goes back to Past Harry and tells him to hide his 44 caliber gun in Lara Raith's office when he and Luccio go to visit in Turn Coat. Then, down the road, Future Harry visits Lara Raith to intimidate her and agrees to leave all his weapons etc. with security. When they get to Laura's office, he pulls the hidden 44 out from where it was hidden and starts negotiating.
That would be interesting to pull off. Of course, that assumes Present Harry goes along with the idea or suggestion. I can see him arguing with himself and splitting hairs over morality over the deal and messing the whole thing up, particularly when he's young, like in Fool Moon. That's why I find the whole mascarading as his Unconscious so ingenious. It gets him to consider new ways of thinking, all the while assuming that he himself is just having a particularly vivid debate in his own head. He is, just not nearly in the way he's thinking...
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Ha Inception. Future Harry is making it seem Present Harrys subconsious came up with the idea so Present Harry doesn't become suspcious except sometimes it doesn't take like with Tera West.
Sorry Logistics same post but just dumbed down a little
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OK just so we are clear we should call positions in the Fae Courts "M"antles and positions of authority like The Merlin and Black staff "m"antles just to avoid the confusion we had before
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why call them mantles at all? they arent. they are titles.
man·tle
[man-tl] Show IPA noun, verb, man·tled, man·tling.
noun
1.
a loose, sleeveless cloak or cape.
2.
something that covers, envelops, or conceals: the mantle of darkness.
3.
Geology . the portion of the earth, about 1800 miles (2900 km) thick, between the crust and the core. Compare core1 ( def 10 ) , crust ( def 6 ) .
4.
Zoology . a single or paired outgrowth of the body wall that lines the inner surface of the valves of the shell in mollusks and brachiopods.
5.
a chemically prepared, incombustible network hood for a gas jet, kerosene wick, etc., that, when the jet or wick is lighted, becomes incandescent and gives off a brilliant light.
Jim's being poetic, hes using defintion 2. there is no reason to use it for the title or office of merlin
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why call them mantles at all? they arent. they are titles.
Jim's being poetic, hes using defintion 2. there is no reason to use it for the title or office of merlin
Now that I think about it...the whole idea of mantles of power. It's got me thinking of an old series by Piers Anthony. The Incarnations of Immortality. The whole setup is similar - science/magic world, and mortals assume various Offices of power depending on the beliefs mortals have, the more believe, the more Power is vested in the Office. Wonder if I'm on to anything. Didn't Jim make some joke during his last online discussion thing that at least he's not having all his heroes related to one another - I think Anthony did that with the last book in that series. Nox?
Ah, I'm probably nuts.
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Now that I think about it...the whole idea of mantles of power. It's got me thinking of an old series by Piers Anthony. The Incarnations of Immortality. The whole setup is similar - science/magic world, and mortals assume various Offices of power depending on the beliefs mortals have, the more believe, the more Power is vested in the Office. Wonder if I'm on to anything. Didn't Jim make some joke during his last online discussion thing that at least he's not having all his heroes related to one another - I think Anthony did that with the last book in that series. Nox?
Ah, I'm probably nuts.
I've read that series! Also funny coincidence you bring it up because I was re reading info on it to refresh my memory of it. It gives an interesting interpretation of Satan.
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Now that I think about it...the whole idea of mantles of power. It's got me thinking of an old series by Piers Anthony. The Incarnations of Immortality. The whole setup is similar - science/magic world, and mortals assume various Offices of power depending on the beliefs mortals have, the more believe, the more Power is vested in the Office. Wonder if I'm on to anything. Didn't Jim make some joke during his last online discussion thing that at least he's not having all his heroes related to one another - I think Anthony did that with the last book in that series. Nox?
Ah, I'm probably nuts.
Feist has done something similar with the pantheon of gods for his Magician series.
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Now that I think about it...the whole idea of mantles of power. It's got me thinking of an old series by Piers Anthony. The Incarnations of Immortality. The whole setup is similar - science/magic world, and mortals assume various Offices of power depending on the beliefs mortals have, the more believe, the more Power is vested in the Office. Wonder if I'm on to anything. Didn't Jim make some joke during his last online discussion thing that at least he's not having all his heroes related to one another - I think Anthony did that with the last book in that series. Nox?
Ah, I'm probably nuts.
well the famous one is by robert heinlien
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22%E2%80%94All_You_Zombies%E2%80%94%22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22%E2%80%94All_You_Zombies%E2%80%94%22)
later expanded on in a half dozen other of his books
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well the famous one is by robert heinlien
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22%E2%80%94All_You_Zombies%E2%80%94%22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22%E2%80%94All_You_Zombies%E2%80%94%22)
later expanded on in a half dozen other of his books
Ah. I did guess Heinlein before thinking of Anthony, but I thought it might have something to do with Lazarus Long. Never read that particular short.
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I've been giving some thought on how this would all be accomplished, and I was going through Chapter 20 again to see if I missed anything good, and it looks like I did. Here's the opening to Chapter 20, immediately preceding the description I quoted earlier:
I awoke in a dark place. It was like the inside of a warehouse, or a big, underground garage, all black, with a smooth, even floor, and a pool of bleak, sterile radiance in the middle of it that came from a source I could not see or identify. I felt like hell, and looked down to see myself covered in scratches, bruises, welts, blood, bandages, and ill-fitting clothing. I wore none of my implements or devices, and there was a curious distance between me and the pain of my injuries - I was more than aware of them, but they seemed to be something that was merely noted in passing, and unimportant to my life as a whole.
This seems like another reference to Ghost Story. The Present Harry is plopped down suddenly bereft of all his magic implements, just the clothes on his back, and injuries he suddenly really doesn't notice anymore - and there is quite a catalog of them listed. This sounds like the residual self-image Harry ran into while in Ghost form, as well as the detachment from the pain. I think Neurovore might be on to something regarding the Never Never and dreams - maybe a pocket dimension similar to Bob's skull or perhaps Agatha Hagglethorn's burnt Chicago that Future Harry draws his past self into as it dreams in the Never Never? There is some sort of glowing circle on the floor that Harry has to cross before the figure is able to make contact. That might be some kind of summoning circle.
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While I don't have any concrete idea of just what the figure is trying to do exactly, I get the general feeling that he is trying to mess with the past in a very circumspect way. He tweaks Harry's attitude towards certain ideas, and frankly gets him to behave differently then he otherwise would have. This sounds suspiciously similar to how Bob suggests handling time travel during their impromptu (and out of the blue) discussion on the subject in Proven Guilty...right before Little Chicago was mysteriously repaired.
I don't really support this idea, because I'm still a firm believer in the PG time-travel theories. I do like the points you've made in your theory, and will be intrigued to see if it turns out to be correct. I'm too invested in the PGtt theories to divide my attention/hopes, but I wish your theory well.
But I have to say, I'm surprised I didn't see anyone else mention this: Lash is a copy of an angel, and angels can/do exist outside linear time.
1) Lash slows down/stops linear time in WN at the end.
2) Uriel stops linear time in GS.
If Lash is the parasite, and makes her return in #15, then theoretically, then she may be able to help Dresden project a non-corporeal mental image of himself (just like she is) back in time. The problem is that the first appearance of idHarry is in FM, before Lash is in Harry's head. So I'm not sure that she'd be able to go back that far. But she might be able to take Harry back to any point after the imprint is made. Which could explain the interaction between Harry, idHarry, and Lash in DB.
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1) Lash slows down/stops linear time in WN at the end.
Wasn't that more fiddling with his perception of time rather than anything else?
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Wasn't that more fiddling with his perception of time rather than anything else?
My own take was that she was artificially accelerating his thought processes to an absurd level. Sort of how 15 minutes felt forever when you were 6, magnified a bit. That would also help to explain the danger - his body just can't sustain that level of activity too long.
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Wasn't that more fiddling with his perception of time rather than anything else?
Yeah, I think she dosed his brain with tachyodorphins to make his brain work super-fast. But she also says at the time (pun!) that time doesn't exist.
WN - pg403
“Time does not exist,” she said, her tone firm. “Not the way you consider it, at any rate. I have temporarily accelerated the processes of your mind.”
And that was what she was doing to accelerate the process of his mind in the physical world. As a non-corporeal entity, she might be able to show him the past just as easily as the present. I think that's why she has eidetic memory: everything that existed in her past exists in her present, so recall isn't a problem.
The problems would arise that she couldn't manipulate the past, as that's probably a no-no, and she probably couldn't send Harry back prior to her seeing/experiencing everything in his mind.
The work-around for the second is that, as part of Harry and sharing his soul, she has his memories as well, and might be able to go back to that memory.
The first isn't as easy. But its assuming that such things are off limits to Angels and Fallen. Maybe by sending Harry back, but not herself, it wouldn't be a violation.
Harry Lash-Back Theory (sub-category of logistics' Time-Travel Theory)
1) Harry finds out in #15 that the parasite is Lash, who is sharing/living/feeding off of his soul.
2) They resume 2-way communications.
3) Harry has a need to go back and revisit his memories of previous casefiles.
4) Lash reveals that Angels and Fallen are non-linear, meaning they can exist and revisit any time from their existence.
5) Harry realizes that as an aggelocopy feeding-off-of/sharing his soul, Lash can exist and revisit any time from his existence as well.
6) Lash tells him its against the rules for a shadow or Fallen to go back and change the past, and that she can't visit his past.
7) Harry says that she wouldn't have to revist his past; only he would; and he promises not to change anything.
8) Lash shows him how to not only recall his past, but to actually revisit it, in a non-linear mental state.
9) Harry visits himself to piece together a few facts, and takes the opportunity to talk to himself, knowing that he can only have the same conversations over that he had previously. Hence his deeper understanding of events, as well as his reluctant knowledge of not being allowed to change things.
10) Harry then returns to the present.
Problems with this Theory:
1) Making a lot of assumptions on Lash's abilities.
2) We still have a paradox, as with all time-travel scenarios, because Harry has to recall a conversation he already had with his future self before his future self existed to have the conversation, meaning that the future self would have had to have existed in a timeline where a future-future self didn't make the trip back, which means that that first conversation would have changed the future. :o
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Eh...don't assume that only Angels can perceive time as non-linear. The truth of the matter is that time IS non-linear. It's a matter of wrapping your head around that. There is no such thing as "now...or present." Instead, there is past and future, that exist simultaneously. Add to that fact (under the Theory of Relativity) that traveling at the speed of light suspends time and it seems clear that time is not an absolute....it's....well....relative. Newton was wrong...Einstein was right.
When Lash sped up Harry's thinking process (to dangerous levels) in White Night...she was applying Einstein's Theory of Relativity. The faster you go, the slower time passes. This is only measurable (in human standards) at an approach to the "speed of light." Therefore, Lash sped up Harry's thought process just short of the "speed of light" because time was still passing (tick........tick........tick). Then, in Ghost Story, Uriel showed what a complete badass he was and moved Harry's speed of thought to exactly the "speed of light" because time no longer existed. Everything became suspended in Molly's Star Trek mind. He did so safely without any repercussions to Harry.
One could surmise that could you speed up your thought process beyond the "speed of light," it would result in a return to the very recent past. That's the hard way to do it. An easier way would be memory of a particular instant in your life. Harry's ability to call on his brain to recall a moment in consciousness of the past is what gives the perception of linear time. But, it is only perception. That moment he recalls can be as real as right....NOW. Of course, by the time he could shout out...."NOW," it's already part of the "past."
"No matter where your go...there you are."
Addendum: For those convinced there must be a Present...provide me with the smallest number you can think of, and I'll divide it in half.
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well i doubt harry went relatavistic there, his brain would exploded from the mass change. A person's awareness of time can be changed via medical means, in effect Lash just 'overclocked' his computer.
Uriel is a different issue; for beings made netirely of soul stuff (like he and harry were at that point) time becomes entirely subjective.
and yes, I believe in the present. Time may be quantum- and thus at some point indivisible- ive read articles about that possibility in scientific american. Then again it may not be. heck, it could be 'holographic'. its one of the great mysteries of modern science.
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Then again it may not be. heck, it could be 'holographic'. its one of the great mysteries of modern science.
Not if you happen to have a Flux Capacitor. :P
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Yeah, I think she dosed his brain with tachyodorphins to make his brain work super-fast. But she also says at the time (pun!) that time doesn't exist.
WN - pg403
And that was what she was doing to accelerate the process of his mind in the physical world. As a non-corporeal entity, she might be able to show him the past just as easily as the present. I think that's why she has eidetic memory: everything that existed in her past exists in her present, so recall isn't a problem.
The problems would arise that she couldn't manipulate the past, as that's probably a no-no, and she probably couldn't send Harry back prior to her seeing/experiencing everything in his mind.
The work-around for the second is that, as part of Harry and sharing his soul, she has his memories as well, and might be able to go back to that memory.
The first isn't as easy. But its assuming that such things are off limits to Angels and Fallen. Maybe by sending Harry back, but not herself, it wouldn't be a violation.
Harry Lash-Back Theory (sub-category of logistics' Time-Travel Theory)
1) Harry finds out in #15 that the parasite is Lash, who is sharing/living/feeding off of his soul.
2) They resume 2-way communications.
3) Harry has a need to go back and revisit his memories of previous casefiles.
4) Lash reveals that Angels and Fallen are non-linear, meaning they can exist and revisit any time from their existence.
5) Harry realizes that as an aggelocopy feeding-off-of/sharing his soul, Lash can exist and revisit any time from his existence as well.
6) Lash tells him its against the rules for a shadow or Fallen to go back and change the past, and that she can't visit his past.
7) Harry says that she wouldn't have to revist his past; only he would; and he promises not to change anything.
8) Lash shows him how to not only recall his past, but to actually revisit it, in a non-linear mental state.
9) Harry visits himself to piece together a few facts, and takes the opportunity to talk to himself, knowing that he can only have the same conversations over that he had previously. Hence his deeper understanding of events, as well as his reluctant knowledge of not being allowed to change things.
10) Harry then returns to the present.
Problems with this Theory:
1) Making a lot of assumptions on Lash's abilities.
2) We still have a paradox, as with all time-travel scenarios, because Harry has to recall a conversation he already had with his future self before his future self existed to have the conversation, meaning that the future self would have had to have existed in a timeline where a future-future self didn't make the trip back, which means that that first conversation would have changed the future. :o
i can get on board with this exepted harry know how to use a piece his own soul to power a spell so why cant he use a chunck of his soul to go back if angel is all soul and time is illrevent to them them mabey the same holds true for a mortals
and harry just needs a hand to learn how
as to every one else post about there only being futer/past or what ever i cant't swim in that water todeep for me ???