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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Kolat on November 04, 2011, 07:25:48 PM
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I have a tank melee based were creature, and we are nearing a refresh bonus. I currently have Inhuman Strength/Recovery/Toughness. To dominate melee should I up strength to supernstural, then eventually mythic? Or another one to super natural? Or even take billing size instead?
Just looking to be the nest combat beatatick I can be... Thanks in advance!
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If I were to tank, I'd go the speed route. The ability to fight a group in people, and not get hit, appeals to me far more than being hit and marking off those (albeit plentiful) boxes granted by toughness. A mixture of the two works well.
Strength isn't all that beneficial for tanking, but does provide a reasonable boost to damage. Although I'd rather speed than strength, again, as not getting hit outweighs a bonus to damage that relies on hitting.
So, if it isn't clear: I'm recommending speed.
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Speed gives you better defense and added mobility; it doesn't improve your ability to tank, and potentially takes you down a completely different route. Speed makes Athletics a really useful Skill to have; but if you can absorb the punishment it's less important not to get hit.
Have you considered any Mortal Stunts, like Wall of Death for taking out multiples of weaker opponents (which is even easier when you're getting a lot of extra Stress)?
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Speed gives you better defense and added mobility; it doesn't improve your ability to tank, and potentially takes you down a completely different route. Speed makes Athletics a really useful Skill to have; but if you can absorb the punishment it's less important not to get hit.
Have you considered any Mortal Stunts, like Wall of Death for taking out multiples of weaker opponents (which is even easier when you're getting a lot of extra Stress)?
I have a few stunts, one that gives me bonuses in Were form (Home brew), and 2 that help me socially with my intimidation. The speed route isn't my characters bag. I just want max the punishment and damage I can do... Hence the term tank! ;)
What are your opinions of hulking size?
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There are two typical types of tank within a role-based RPG: "Dexterity, don't get hit, death by a thousand cuts", and "Strength/Constitution, take and/or deal damage".
I personally prefer the former. Can't offer much advise with the latter, unfortunately. Recovery/Strengh/Toughness would seem to be what you're looking for. Out of the bunch I'd go Toughness. Stunts for extra Physical Consequences might be worth looking into.
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If that's the character feel you're looking for, I'd suggest discussing with your GM a custom power that shifts physical defense to endurance. I'd phrase it as:
-1 Armored Hide: You may use endurance to defend against attacks or maneuvers that would inflict physical stress or damage - unless that damage would be inflicted in a way that bypasses your toughness catch. In addition, you may complement your defense with might when defending against large, brute force style physical attacks, such as an ogre's club, a boulder thrown by a giant, or a collapsing wall (but not against gunfire, the thrust of a rapier, etc.)
You'll still want a decent athletics, though. Catch-based attacks will still force you to dodge normally, as will many maneuvers; the power lets you use endurance against a "cut over your eyes" or a "bruised ankle", but won't help against non-damaging maneuvers like tripping, disarming, etc. It also won't help against grapples. And mobility is useful anyway.
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Do you have Claws yet? That's a 1-point power that most GMs will allow to stack with Strength to boost your damage output by 2.
Aside from that, it really just comes down to whether you want more damage or more health. Hulking Size does NOT improve your damage output at all, actually. In fact, because Hulking Size gives you more stress boxes but also makes you easier to hit, it doesn't actually improve your survivability much either.
Moving your Toughness to Supernatural is probably a better investment than doing the same to your Recovery, unless you're really worried about starting every fight completely cleared of consequences.
Inhuman Speed is also worth considering if your athletics is decent and you want more mobility and protection from ranged attacks. However, I can understand how that might not fit the character's flavor.
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IMO the order you should be improving your powers is thus:
1) Strength - to shorten fights by ensuring you take down the other guy.
2) Toughness - to prolong your ability to stay in the fight while you do the first.
3) Recovery - to ensure you are healed up before the next time you get in a scrap (and also remove the odd Consequence during if you really have to).
So right now, Supernatural Strength. Then Toughess. Lastly Recovery. Then go around them again if desired.
Recommendations on Claws and the like are good ones; my GM sees Supernatural Strength as the threshold after which weapon breakage becomes a regular occurence (Compel!). So by then you either use Fists alone and forget melee weapons, or use disposable ones. At Supernatural Strength, things you rip out of the ground or fixtures might qualify as such.
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It very much depends on the situation. The four basic physical powers are pretty well balanced against each other, so none of them is a dumb choice.
Claws is good if you use Fists.
Hulking Size usually isn't great, but the Intimidation boost is nice.
Mortal stunts vary greatly in usefulness depending on the situation. Can't comment on whether they'd be good for you or not without knowing more.
Bottom line: not enough info.
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If you're going for a Tank character like you would in an MMORPG, what Sanctaphrax said but for slightly different reasons.
1) Strength. Grapples are the only physical means you have of keeping a baddie attacking you rather than your more fragile friends.
2) Toughness. You take a lot more punishment.
3) Recovery. You're healed up for the next fight and can blow off consequence(s) during a fight.
That's powers. Stunts like Infuriate (YW153) would also be appropriate to keep the target on you without having to grapple.
Just bear in mind that this is a Physical tank build you're going for. Against vamps or finger-wagglers hitting your Mental track, you're going to be relatively soft and squishy as a target.
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Just bear in mind that this is a Physical tank build you're going for. Against vamps or finger-wagglers hitting your Mental track, you're going to be relatively soft and squishy as a target.
That's why you keep a relatively high Discipline.
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In a low power game, my glamour based character may end up being the 'tank'. He has a shadow form that is very tough, and his illusions can steadily pile useful aspects, so he can't be ignored, but he doesn't have much direct striking power.
You could have someone with a very high evocation block be the tank. Or someone with high toughness, or high athletics + speed and stunts to make their dodge even higher. Regardless, they also need to have something that causes the enemy to focus exclusively on them, instead of on squishier targets.
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You could have someone with a very high evocation block be the tank.
That would be an extremely inefficient and pretty wasteful way to tank.
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That would be an extremely inefficient and pretty wasteful way to tank.
Inefficient? A dedicated defensive caster, as with a dedicated offensive caster, can achieve high numbers fairly easily. For instance a submerged caster, with 5 conviction, 4 discipline, +2 element control, +1 element power. Can summon 6 shifts. Add in a +1 power & control element defensive item keyed to a single spell: you've got a legendary (8 shift) block; which on the second turn you can extend to last for another 7 rounds. Or you could make it a Fantastic block for multiple allies within the same zone. Nifty, huh? Oh, and as of round 2+ you're still able to throw about a few offensive blasts (6 shifts, + any focus items)/ manoeuvres for good measure; or to keep enemies focused on you. Not to mention the possibility of defensive enchanted items, and how effective they could be for a Tank.. I can guarantee some people on this site could make even better Magic Tanks fairly easily.
- The (fixed) numbers listed are assuming 1 mental stress per spell. An Evocator willing to up them to +4 for the spell, 1 for the prolonging (still leaves room for two offensive spells), or any combination thereof of stress useage, can achieve even better blocks.
I know that is an extremely focused defensive caster, but people always discuss how offensive casters are (which, to be fair, they are) awesome; defensive ones can pull it off too!
- Edit: Wizard's can even dish out damage whilst taking it, using Wards. Sponsored magic: Wards could arguably make an insanely good tank as far as retribution goes.
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A tank using the building block powers never takes Stress from their use, they can keep pumping them out round after round with no cost. And cheaper than magic in terms of Refresh, too.
More to the point, focusing magic just around that one thing makes for a pretty boring sorceror-type. All that investment to do one thing really well, and not even a terribly interesting one. At least someone with super-Strength has some non-combat applications of that.
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The most powerful tanks are people with incite anger (or just a high intimidate), infuriate and the rest in athletics, defense stunts and toughness or an Enchanted Item Master (but they are best or second best at pretty much every category).
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Naturally, I'm not saying other Tanks aren't worth considering: I'm just saying Wizard ones are.
As for non combat applications: that is what thaumaturgy is for. A Wizard can accomplish far more with that, than a Super Strong character can with their Strength.
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What exactly is a tank, anyway?
The OP seems to mean a bruiser type when he says it. Other people seem to mean any guy with really good defences. And some seem to mean a guy who takes the heat for his teammates.
And for what it's worth, I don't think shield spells are a very good way to become a tough character to hurt. They're only good in specific circumstances.
In other news, this thread just gave me a new character idea.
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From what I understand of the term 'Tank', it is a specific role found within RPGs (especially MMOs). Their job is to go in, take the pressure of their team mates by drawing the enemy to them (sometimes through an aggro system, sometimes through class abilities etc), and then sit and take damage (and the important bit:) without dying (hence high defenses).
The ability to deal out damage is usually less important, as they're often paired with high DPS (damage per second) builds. Although Tanks can, in some games, also deal out damage - if nothing else, it stops them getting bored.
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What exactly is a tank, anyway?
From what I understand of the term 'Tank', it is a specific role found within RPGs (especially MMOs). Their job is to go in, take the pressure of their team mates by drawing the enemy to them (sometimes through an aggro system, sometimes through class abilities etc), and then sit and take damage (and the important bit:) without dying (hence high defenses).
The ability to deal out damage is usually less important, as they're often paired with high DPS (damage per second) builds. Although Tanks can, in some games, also deal out damage - if nothing else, it stops them getting bored.
They're also largely irrelevant in DFRPG. GMs aren't AI and they've little reason to make their NPCs as stupid as MMORPG baddies.
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True, but... the right bonus in intimidate, with the right stunts... and you can toss down some zone maneuvers, then compel the NPCs to ignore your buddies and attack only you.
[Side-note on the above: my group lets compels go both ways... it's not just a tool for the GM to use on the players... players can use them on NPCs. The NPCs though have the option to ignore the compel at a -2 penalty to whatever they do instead, if I really need them to.]
That said... something like that would be my priority. If I knew I had Toughness and Recovery covered, I'd even pass up Strength in favor of better Aggro (to use the MMO term).
Also, defensive casters aren't exclusively one-trick ponies, and used creatively, can be just as dangerous as any raw-stat-tank.
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Hell, defensive casters can be a lot more dangerous than any tank if paired with someone who's good at the offensive end of things. Massive shield/armor to start with; 12-14 shifts or so all to power at Chest Deep for instance. Extend it. A defensive maneuver like a displacement type spell. Save the last mental bubble for an emergency and either start performing non-magical supportive maneuvers for the combat types or start shooting things.
That bit of defensive castering just made your entire party essentially invulnerable to evenly matched baddies or made one party member invulnerable to anything two refresh higher. Equally spec'd offensive casters and mental track attackers excepted.
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Is there any reason a Spirit based Evocation shield/armour can't protect against both physical and mental attacks?
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Is there any reason a Spirit based Evocation shield/armour can't protect against both physical and mental attacks?
How would you describe such a shield? Preferably in a way which didn't also limit your actions.
By the rules, you could block all attack actions from a group. That's a block more than a shield though (targeted at opponents rather than self). Fitting it into the narrative is a bit more difficult. And, in many ways, narrative mechanics trump game mechanics in FATE. (Describing your block weakly opens the door to easy Declarations and Maneuvers which will help bypass / break it.)
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My problem comes from trying to describe mental attacks from Insite Emotion or Evocation. If I can't figure out how to describe those I can't figure out how to describe blocking them.
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Disordered thoughts:
-I think you overstate the invulnerability granted by a good shield. The other guys can always stack maneuvers, abuse the massive breaking bonuses of Strength powers, or just stall until the duration ends.
-Grr at mental attacks with evocation.
-I think that the best way to make an MMORPG-style tank in a game with non-stupid foes is to use mechanics that punish baddies for not targeting the tank. This would require some custom powers or stunts, but it's doable.
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-I think you overstate the invulnerability granted by a good shield. The other guys can always stack maneuvers, abuse the massive breaking bonuses of Strength powers, or just stall until the duration ends.
True enough but several characters who are lining up maneuvers for one to take advantage of are explicitly not beating the snot out of everyone while they do. Waiting on a 6-10 exchange shield to run out when the wizard can just renew it is a chancy idea too. Nothing's perfect but a good defense and a good offense almost always beat a slightly better offense.
-I think that the best way to make an MMORPG-style tank in a game with non-stupid foes is to use mechanics that punish baddies for not targeting the tank. This would require some custom powers or stunts, but it's doable.
For single targets, I'd say a character with Superb Might, a Strength power, and a grapple helping Stunt would be the way to go. Evocation blocks for groups. Better to keep them from ever dealing damage in the first place than to soak it. Course that's just my opinion.
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Is there any reason a Spirit based Evocation shield/armour can't protect against both physical and mental attacks?
Yes. If you go into enough detail to describe a shield that could block them both, you've given the NPCs plenty to work with for declarations, compels, and maneuvers. Plus they're different enough that your GM may just flat out not allow it.
For mental shields, it's best to not give them any physical presence. That's just another avenue that can be exploited against you.
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To clarify I was looking at bad ass melee combatant development. I currently have intimidate at 5, and the Homebrew Stunt (forgot the name but its on the list on these boards) that gives a +2 to Intimidation rolls when soneone knows who i am and/or what i am. But his 5 intimidation is in human form, not in his animal form... In animal I think its at a 2.
Would incite anger be worth it? Or maybe upping the inhuman ones or even poison claws since he has claws... Thanks for the help guys!
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Could you post your character sheet?
I really don't think I can say much more without seeing it.
PS: I've undergone a change of heart regarding stunt balance recently, so the stunt list here will likely change soon. I mention this because Scary Reputation, which your character apparently has, will likely be made less powerful by the changes. I apologize if this is inconvenient for you.
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Incite anger is defiantly worth it for some tank builds especially ones with intimidate as their top skill though it is quite expensive and doesn't suit all builds.
Also the best stunt for tanking in the game is Infuriate a stunt from Your Story's Stunt list pg 153 which gives not only the best agro bonus in the game but forces the aspects the enemy takes to be directed at the character with the stunt (so enemies can be compelled to attack the right target ).
Infuriate: Scaring people isn’t your forte; seriously
pissing them off, on the other hand, is right
up your alley. Gain +2 to any roll when deliberately
trying to get someone angry with you (a
social or mental attack or a maneuver with such
a goal). Any consequences (such as grudges) or
temporary aspects that result must name you as
the source and target of the anger.
This combined with Incite Anger (mental attack) is probably one of the most dangerous tanking build in the game. (Second behind the ever stupidly powerful enchanted items build).
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Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has offered advice, still working on things a bit and any further advice is welcome for my bruiser melee tank character (who does have Intimidate 5, but no incite emotion yet!). So again thanks! :)