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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on September 15, 2017, 07:24:13 PM

Title: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: groinkick on September 15, 2017, 07:24:13 PM
Jim said the Blackstaff chooses the wizard.  Now I actually interpreted it meaning the Blackstaff itself chose the wizard but I think someone showed that Jim meant the Blackstaff wizard chose the next Blackstaff.  Well the position is very very dangerous.  Eb has got to know that there is a good chance someone will take him down before he can hand it down to someone else.  So my guess is he has in advance chosen who will take is place at the time of his death.  Who would you see him picking?

I could see him picking Harry, believing Harry is the right guy for the job, but I'm also thinking Luccio might be his pick (perhaps so Harry wouldn't have to live with the nightmares of what he would have to do).
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Kindler on September 15, 2017, 08:07:11 PM
Jim said the Blackstaff chooses the wizard.  Now I actually interpreted it meaning the Blackstaff itself chose the wizard but I think someone showed that Jim meant the Blackstaff wizard chose the next Blackstaff.  Well the position is very very dangerous.  Eb has got to know that there is a good chance someone will take him down before he can hand it down to someone else.  So my guess is he has in advance chosen who will take is place at the time of his death.  Who would you see him picking?

I could see him picking Harry, believing Harry is the right guy for the job, but I'm also thinking Luccio might be his pick (perhaps so Harry wouldn't have to live with the nightmares of what he would have to do).

That is exactly the kind of word lawyering I would expect from a sneaky little author like Jim.

For me, candidates would include Harry, Ramirez, Luccio, Chandler, and Listens-to-Wind.

1. Harry is the most likely choice. Eb clearly has faith in him, and believes he can handle the burden of being The Warden. But I think circumstances have changed too much; with his Wardening and Knighting he has to do full time, adding the office of Blackstaff might be too much for Harry to handle, and I'd expect Eb to think similarly.
2. Luccio is doable, but I think she'd be too rigidly in support of the laws. Not to Morgan levels of insanity, but not flexible enough. Plus, after the body switch, she's lost her full potential, and has proven susceptible to mind alteration.
3. Listens-to-Wind is more likely, I think, specifically because Eb respects his ability to rein in his anger and outrage, and act dispassionately, according to his conversation in Turn Coat. Seems like a good candidate for someone with power over life and death. Plus, imagine what access to black magic could do for a Healer.
4. Ramirez is a bit of a stretch. He's proven brave and loyal, and can think outside the box. But Ebenezer doesn't know him well enough yet for him to be seriously considered, I think.
5. Chandler is my longshot. Capable, dependable, and loyal in enough quantities that he's trusted by everyone on the Council, even the top brass. Harry notes he's been seen in positions that would require great trust too often for it to be a fluke.

Really, it depends on what you think the role of the Blackstaff is. I see it as a check against the Council's arrogance and politicking, when action is being deliberately halted or slowed by bureaucracy and the rules and Laws are twisted against their purpose of protection. Eb would want it passed to someone who is as far away from that nonsense as possible.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Just Al on September 15, 2017, 08:37:23 PM
Considering the amount of distrust the Council has for Harry, naming him Blackstaff (the wizard who can ignore the laws when he sees the need) would ignite a breakdown leading to the likely dissolution of the Council.
Luccio, Ramirez or Chandler would be more politic choices. I agree that Lucio would be the most likely choice.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Mira on September 15, 2017, 08:59:58 PM


I don't think Jim meant the holderof the Blackstaff selects his or her successor..  It would make more sense I think if the staff itself chose it's wielder not unlike the Holy Swords.   So while Eb might make some suggestions and the holder has to pass muster with those in the know on the Senior Council, I think the Staff itself has the last word.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Snark Knight on September 15, 2017, 11:20:52 PM
Considering the amount of distrust the Council has for Harry, naming him Blackstaff (the wizard who can ignore the laws when he sees the need) would ignite a breakdown leading to the likely dissolution of the Council.
Luccio, Ramirez or Chandler would be more politic choices. I agree that Lucio would be the most likely choice.

It's not going to become a public wedge unless Langtry and company are willing to tell all the rank and file about the Blackstaff.

Most likely if Eb left it to Harry, it would just be the last straw for Langtry to have him assassinated.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 15, 2017, 11:31:26 PM
Arthur can't touch Harry; Mab might get annoyed for a whole minute.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on September 15, 2017, 11:38:47 PM
It is widely believed the Blackstaff is mother winter walking stick, so an artifact of faerie. I wonder if it could be bound to a deal, so used and act in a certain way.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Snark Knight on September 15, 2017, 11:46:25 PM
It is widely believed the Blackstaff is mother winter walking stick, so an artifact of faerie.

Jim has even de facto confirmed this. Someone asked in a Q&A about the origin of the blackstaff and he said the right answer was commonly known in fan forums.

If Eb is aware of where it's from, that's a hell of a good reason not to give it to Harry. I can't see him putting Harry in a position where if ordered to hand it over, he'd have to choose between depriving the council of it forever or getting Mother Winter's version of punishment for disobedience.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 16, 2017, 03:00:59 AM
How about the Blackstaff chooses Maggie Jr.?  That sounds like the absolute worst case scenario for Harry, so...
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: groinkick on September 16, 2017, 03:04:06 AM
How about the Blackstaff chooses Maggie Jr.?  That sounds like the absolute worst case scenario for Harry, so...

lol I don't picture her having the ability to fulfill the position for quite some time, time Eb cannot possibly predict that he has with the danger of his job.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 16, 2017, 03:53:42 AM
lol I don't picture her having the ability to fulfill the position for quite some time, time Eb cannot possibly predict that he has with the danger of his job.
Who said anything about Eb?   :D

If it weren't for the pending Maggie series, I think it'd be a great thing to do to her character.  Give a kid that's a fourth generation rebel a weapon that will tempt her with the ability to do whatever she wants without the blowback.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 16, 2017, 07:22:44 AM
Sounds like a scenario where Harry has to take down his daughter who has gone all Evil-Lyn.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: isoycrazy on September 16, 2017, 11:00:44 AM
Sounds like a scenario where Harry has to take down his daughter who has gone all Evil-Lyn.

Who would be her Skeletor?  If Skeletor was He-man's uncle, maybe Harry Carpenter goes dark?
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Avernite on September 16, 2017, 04:25:31 PM
Who would be her Skeletor?  If Skeletor was He-man's uncle, maybe Harry Carpenter goes dark?

That would rather undermine the image of the Carpenter family, if all its members end up evil, crazy, or at least on the shortlist for such positions. At least Molly had her magic to override the 'good family' image.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: groinkick on September 16, 2017, 05:08:33 PM
Who said anything about Eb?   :D

If it weren't for the pending Maggie series, I think it'd be a great thing to do to her character.  Give a kid that's a fourth generation rebel a weapon that will tempt her with the ability to do whatever she wants without the blowback.

I might be mistaken but I thought that you were the one who told me that it was the Blackstaff wizard who chose the successor, not the Blackstaff itself.  Again I might be mistaken.  So that's why I mentioned Eb picking the successor.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 16, 2017, 05:21:46 PM
I might be mistaken but I thought that you were the one who told me that it was the Blackstaff wizard who chose the successor, not the Blackstaff itself.  Again I might be mistaken.  So that's why I mentioned Eb picking the successor.
I don't think I said that, but I wouldn't put it past me.  Still, I think it's likely that the bearer chooses, but I think it's plausible that the staff can reject, and possibly even prefer, a candidate.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: groinkick on September 16, 2017, 06:52:46 PM
I don't think I said that, but I wouldn't put it past me.  Still, I think it's likely that the bearer chooses, but I think it's plausible that the staff can reject, and possibly even prefer, a candidate.

As the Winter Knight would Harry be obliged to return it to Mother Winter do you think if it came into his possession? 
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: isoycrazy on September 16, 2017, 10:00:26 PM
As the Winter Knight would Harry be obliged to return it to Mother Winter do you think if it came into his possession?

Only if she asked for it. Mother winter could have, not gifted the staff but allowed it to be taken for a purpose. She permitted Harry to leave with the unraveling not as a gift but a necessity to make the courts balanced once again.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on September 17, 2017, 01:16:23 AM
I bet the Blackstaff used by a wizard winter knight would have epic concequences. The knight mantle is a portion of the Queen, while the staff is an artifact of the Queen. Since the Blackstaff can break the seven laws, and the star born has power over outsiders and the winter court mans the outer gates. It seems to me Harry was destined to be the bearer of the staff and use it against the outsiders.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: DonBugen on September 17, 2017, 10:39:12 PM
Quote
If it weren't for the pending Maggie series, I think it'd be a great thing to do to her character.  Give a kid that's a fourth generation rebel a weapon that will tempt her with the ability to do whatever she wants without the blowback.
Forgive me, but that sounds like a terrible idea.  Children shouldn't be given immense power with no consequences.  Children are little psycopaths; proper parenting is what makes them functioning members of society.  Have you not watched the Twilight Zone?
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: isoycrazy on September 17, 2017, 11:48:50 PM
Forgive me, but that sounds like a terrible idea.  Children shouldn't be given immense power with no consequences.  Children are little psycopaths; proper parenting is what makes them functioning members of society.  Have you not watched the Twilight Zone?

What do you mean?  It was a Good episode.  A Good Life.  He did nothing wrong.  Really he didn't.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 18, 2017, 12:18:51 AM
Forgive me, but that sounds like a terrible idea.  Children shouldn't be given immense power with no consequences.  Children are little psycopaths; proper parenting is what makes them functioning members of society.  Have you not watched the Twilight Zone?
Harry's life is nothing but a long episode of the Twilight Zone.  Why wouldn't JB do the absolute worst thing to him?

Hell, Harry will be lucky if he can make it to end of the series without Maggie becoming a Lasciel-bearing, Pepsi-swilling vegan Summer Knight in possession of both the Blackstaff and Evil Bob who considers herself a Trekkie and is dating Kincaid's secret son. :D
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: DonBugen on September 18, 2017, 01:40:30 AM
What do you mean?  It was a Good episode.  A Good Life.  He did nothing wrong.  Really he didn't.
Love it when someone gets the obscure reference! :D

Quote from: Griffyn612
Hell, Harry will be lucky if he can make it to end of the series without Maggie becoming a Lasciel-bearing, Pepsi-swilling vegan Summer Knight in possession of both the Blackstaff and Evil Bob who considers herself a Trekkie and is dating Kincaid's secret son. :D
Well, it's kind of a family tradition to completely rebel against one's parents, so good luck, Harry.  She'll be wanting Happy Meals before you know it.

On a slightly more on-topic note...  is there any WOJ, anywhere at all, in which Jim confirms that the Blackstaff is what Eb says that it is:  a secret role assigned by the White Court with carte blanche to break any of the laws?  I mean, no one talks about the Blackstaff other than Eb and Kincaid.  Kincaid, for about ten seconds, before Harry shuts him up.  And yes, Ebenezer's assembled band of gray-cloaked wizards whose identities are kept hidden from Harry do see it Eb using the Blackstaff...  but the Gray Council's knowledge does not necessarily prove the White Council's approval.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: groinkick on September 18, 2017, 01:48:54 AM
Harry's life is nothing but a long episode of the Twilight Zone.  Why wouldn't JB do the absolute worst thing to him?

Hell, Harry will be lucky if he can make it to end of the series without Maggie becoming a Lasciel-bearing, Pepsi-swilling vegan Summer Knight in possession of both the Blackstaff and Evil Bob who considers herself a Trekkie and is dating Kincaid's secret son. :D

and she's BFF's with Langtry
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: khadgar4606 on September 18, 2017, 08:23:14 AM
maggie jr as black staff is kinda playing russian roulette with korean nuke perfect as book material
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 18, 2017, 08:45:15 AM
Harry's life is nothing but a long episode of the Twilight Zone.  Why wouldn't JB do the absolute worst thing to him?

Hell, Harry will be lucky if he can make it to end of the series without Maggie becoming a Lasciel-bearing, Pepsi-swilling vegan Summer Knight in possession of both the Blackstaff and Evil Bob who considers herself a Trekkie and is dating Kincaid's secret son. :D
Wow. How devilish of you to entertain such thoughts. Worse yet, it might give Butcher some ideas.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Rasins on September 18, 2017, 03:32:46 PM
While I don't know about the Blackstaff, I'd bet that Eb has already chosen Harry to be his successor.  I'd be willing to bet that Harry gets the farm and everything.

Eb did mention Harry taking over custodianship of the journals he currently has that go all the way back to Merlin.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on September 18, 2017, 03:39:11 PM
I am wondering after the big trilogy, will there still be a Blackstaff or will mom winter take back her walking stick?
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Rasins on September 18, 2017, 03:43:09 PM
I am wondering after the big trilogy, will there still be a Blackstaff or will mom winter take back her walking stick?

I think it depends on the results of the BAT.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: RobReece on September 18, 2017, 04:02:37 PM
I might be mistaken but I thought that you were the one who told me that it was the Blackstaff wizard who chose the successor, not the Blackstaff itself.  Again I might be mistaken.  So that's why I mentioned Eb picking the successor.
I believe that there was a panel that Jim participated in talking about magic systems, where Jim said that he didn't particularly favor systems where the magic does the thinking... I think this would preclude an object like the staff itself choosing its user.

but I can't remember which con this was at...  can anyone else corroborate this?
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on September 19, 2017, 10:04:20 PM
An item that can freely break the seven laws has to be highly desired, while we argue about if Harry will get it, we should be wondering if the bad guy need it for their plans as well?
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: dspringer1 on September 19, 2017, 10:43:17 PM
The item does not allow you to break the seven laws freely.  The Position of Blackstaff allows you to break the 7 laws (within some organizational limits) without the White Council Wardens hunting you down. 

The item known as the Blackstaff protects you from the taint of a variety of black magic use cases.  Maybe not all black magic, but certainly some very useful types of black magic like death magic. 

In any case, there is certainly a succession plan for the staff and there is certainly a succession plan for the office.  I wonder what would happen if the two diverged.   Could Harry (for example) get the Blackstaff item while some other "more trusted" wizard get appointed the blackstaff by the senior council.   I suspect it would be unprecedented, but it would be interesting if it happens.   Certainly in this instance, harry would be intensely pressured to give up the staff to the new office holder. 
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 19, 2017, 11:30:38 PM
I wonder what would happen if the two diverged.   Could Harry (for example) get the Blackstaff item while some other "more trusted" wizard get appointed the blackstaff by the senior council.   I suspect it would be unprecedented, but it would be interesting if it happens.   Certainly in this instance, harry would be intensely pressured to give up the staff to the new office holder.
The latter wouldn't exist without the former.  The Council wouldn't let someone become tainted on a regular basis.  There's no point in naming someone else.  They'd either fight him for it, accept him, or discontinue the position.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Snark Knight on September 20, 2017, 03:02:07 AM
On a slightly more on-topic note...  is there any WOJ, anywhere at all, in which Jim confirms that the Blackstaff is what Eb says that it is:  a secret role assigned by the White Court with carte blanche to break any of the laws?  I mean, no one talks about the Blackstaff other than Eb and Kincaid.  Kincaid, for about ten seconds, before Harry shuts him up.  And yes, Ebenezer's assembled band of gray-cloaked wizards whose identities are kept hidden from Harry do see it Eb using the Blackstaff...  but the Gray Council's knowledge does not necessarily prove the White Council's approval.

He's answered questions about the office of the Blackstaff without any indication that Eb was exaggerating his unilateral authority, albeit never explicitly addressed that as a possibility. And there was also the Eebs reference to how the "wizard of the black stick" slew Ortega to corroborate.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: dspringer1 on September 20, 2017, 02:19:19 PM
Quote
The latter wouldn't exist without the former.  The Council wouldn't let someone become tainted on a regular basis.  There's no point in naming someone else.  They'd either fight him for it, accept him, or discontinue the position.

This is not true.  Not every action that breaks the laws of magic is black magic (example - time travel) and not every use of tainted magic breaks a magical law. 

As described in the books, the purpose of the Blackstaff job is to protect the council against foes who would use the White Council's own laws against the White Council. 
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 20, 2017, 03:05:40 PM
This is not true.  Not every action that breaks the laws of magic is black magic (example - time travel) and not every use of tainted magic breaks a magical law. 

As described in the books, the purpose of the Blackstaff job is to protect the council against foes who would use the White Council's own laws against the White Council.
Can you name one example of law breaking that didn't taint the caster?
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Rasins on September 20, 2017, 03:54:39 PM
Can you name one example of law breaking that didn't taint the caster?

Would ... when Molly entered Young Luccio's mind and found out that there was something different count?  Was Molly Tainted?
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 20, 2017, 04:12:24 PM
Would ... when Molly entered Young Luccio's mind and found out that there was something different count?  Was Molly Tainted?
Wasn't she tainted by the same in PG?  I thought Harry observed something back then.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: groinkick on September 20, 2017, 04:59:46 PM
I wonder if the Blackstaff, a tool of Mother Winter is capable of destroying someone like Mab
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Rasins on September 20, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
I wonder if the Blackstaff, a tool of Mother Winter is capable of destroying someone like Mab

Why would it be?  Seems like a Mother could do pretty much anything to anyone below them.  No need for a tool like the Blackstaff.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: dspringer1 on September 20, 2017, 09:24:28 PM
Quote
Can you name one example of law breaking that didn't taint the caster?

Time travel.  No evidence at all that this creates a taint.   Although to be fair, the question has not been specifically addressed.     

And I would argue the calling an outsider "per se" is not black magic either, although dealing with outsiders is intensely dangerous and likely to lead to corruption through that interaction.  But if you just called one up and kept it in the circle for an hour without interacting with it -  and then sent it back -- it is hard to argue that this is black magic or particularly corrupting.  It is CERTAINLY against the laws of magic.   




Of course, if you want to get really philosophical, then all uses of magic influence the caster in some way.  If those influences are in the not nice direction, you can call that influence (accurately) a taint.  Using anger to fuel your magic taints the caster.  I suspect using love to fuel your magic also has an impact on the caster.   Using magic to harm someone probably causes a taint, although much less of one than killing with magic.   

Black magic is a general term for really bad magic that is both very negative in an of itself and has a very strong propensity to strongly taint the caster.   But it is certainly possible for a wizard to do a lot of magic that is "legal", but whose cumulative effective over decades is corrupting.  Harry himself mentioned that his use of fear/anger/rage in battle has probably altered his magical nature over the years. 


....and to give the other side example I forgot in my prior post.   Drawing power from a very dark ley line can certainly badly taint a caster in the same was as dark magic, but that action is not prohibited by the laws of magic.  It is still stupid, just not against the laws of magic.   
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: dspringer1 on September 20, 2017, 09:27:46 PM
Quote
I wonder if the Blackstaff, a tool of Mother Winter is capable of destroying someone like Mab

Tons of weapons can kill Mab.  Permanently killing Mab requires some special conditions like Halloween, not a special weapon.   

Or perhaps you meant that the blackstaff "is" one of those special conditions and thus can kill imortals without requiring Halloween or other special conditions.   Interesting speculation, but no evidence to support.   I suspect not -- because if it was that easy to kill and immortal, why bother with Demonreach.   
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 20, 2017, 09:40:03 PM
MJaybe there should be a law of magical exchange where the process of influencing magic through a spell results in a person being influenced by  the spell they cast.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: RobReece on September 21, 2017, 02:51:16 PM
Would ... when Molly entered Young Luccio's mind and found out that there was something different count?  Was Molly Tainted?
I don't think entering a mind to observe is black, they did that to everyone after TC to find out how much damage Peabody had done and Harry did that to Molly at the end of GS.  It's when you force a change in someone's mind and against their will that would cause the damage and taint.

Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Rasins on September 21, 2017, 03:39:39 PM
I don't think entering a mind to observe is black, they did that to everyone after TC to find out how much damage Peabody had done and Harry did that to Molly at the end of GS.  It's when you force a change in someone's mind and against their will that would cause the damage and taint.

I'm not arguing with you, but the law is ... Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another.

Molly invaded her mind without permission.

After TC, they were given permission.

I agree, if you don't make changes, there should be no taint.  But on the surface, just going in without permission is a breaking of the law.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 21, 2017, 03:40:30 PM
Time travel.  No evidence at all that this creates a taint.   Although to be fair, the question has not been specifically addressed.     

And I would argue the calling an outsider "per se" is not black magic either, although dealing with outsiders is intensely dangerous and likely to lead to corruption through that interaction.  But if you just called one up and kept it in the circle for an hour without interacting with it -  and then sent it back -- it is hard to argue that this is black magic or particularly corrupting.  It is CERTAINLY against the laws of magic.   




Of course, if you want to get really philosophical, then all uses of magic influence the caster in some way.  If those influences are in the not nice direction, you can call that influence (accurately) a taint.  Using anger to fuel your magic taints the caster.  I suspect using love to fuel your magic also has an impact on the caster.   Using magic to harm someone probably causes a taint, although much less of one than killing with magic.   

Black magic is a general term for really bad magic that is both very negative in an of itself and has a very strong propensity to strongly taint the caster.   But it is certainly possible for a wizard to do a lot of magic that is "legal", but whose cumulative effective over decades is corrupting.  Harry himself mentioned that his use of fear/anger/rage in battle has probably altered his magical nature over the years. 


....and to give the other side example I forgot in my prior post.   Drawing power from a very dark ley line can certainly badly taint a caster in the same was as dark magic, but that action is not prohibited by the laws of magic.  It is still stupid, just not against the laws of magic.
But still, no proof one way or the other that any of the dark magics forbidden by the laws don't corrupt.  On the other hand, we have numerous cases of people telling us that dark magic corrupts, and the laws are against the darkest of magics.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 21, 2017, 03:54:10 PM
But on the surface, just going in without permission is a breaking of the law.
I'd argue that "invade" and "trespass" are two different things.  Invading a mind, as the law mentions, would seem to imply a certain level of aggressive activity.  Molly's actions in TC are more in line with trespassing; she entered without permission, but didn't do anything to the"victim". 

Just entering the mind doesn't have a corruption, or their newly established practices would be corrupting them.  So there would seem to be a difference. 
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Rasins on September 21, 2017, 03:59:56 PM
I'm actually agreeing with you. 

I'm of the opinion that not all applications of breaking the laws lead to being tainted.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 21, 2017, 04:53:54 PM
I'm actually agreeing with you. 

I'm of the opinion that not all applications of breaking the laws lead to being tainted.
No, we're disagreeing.  I'm saying that what Molly did wasn't a law violation.  Harry said it was, but I think it could have been defended pretty easily if she were anyone other than her, and her master were anyone other than Harry.

I'm saying that law violations corrupt, which is why there are laws against them.  I don't think they were crafted just because they weren't palatable to conservative wizards; I think there's a genuine reason those 7 were crafted into Law.

Time travel included.  The mindset of someone willing to change the past, regardless of the consequences to reality, is just as corrupted as someone that would mess with someone's head.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Rasins on September 21, 2017, 06:28:01 PM
No, we're disagreeing.  I'm saying that what Molly did wasn't a law violation.  Harry said it was, but I think it could have been defended pretty easily if she were anyone other than her, and her master were anyone other than Harry.

I'm saying that law violations corrupt, which is why there are laws against them.  I don't think they were crafted just because they weren't palatable to conservative wizards; I think there's a genuine reason those 7 were crafted into Law.

Time travel included.  The mindset of someone willing to change the past, regardless of the consequences to reality, is just as corrupted as someone that would mess with someone's head.

Ah, Okay ...

What you are saying is that she didn't break the Spirit of the law.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Kindler on September 21, 2017, 06:42:53 PM
Time travel included.  The mindset of someone willing to change the past, regardless of the consequences to reality, is just as corrupted as someone that would mess with someone's head.
Not to mention the addictive nature of black magic (as explained by Harry); someone goes back to yesterday to move their car to avoid a parking ticket, and when there aren't any consequences, they go back a week earlier to fix something else, a bit bigger, and so on, until they decide that yeah, they should totally kill Hitler, and reality is unmade as a result.

Pretty sure Merlin would have had to do some kind of time travel when he made Demonreach, even if it was something weird like stepping outside of time to observe it from the outside.That might have made Harry's assumption that he was a jerk more accurate than he realized.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: groinkick on September 21, 2017, 06:45:50 PM
I'd argue that "invade" and "trespass" are two different things.  Invading a mind, as the law mentions, would seem to imply a certain level of aggressive activity.  Molly's actions in TC are more in line with trespassing; she entered without permission, but didn't do anything to the"victim". 

Just entering the mind doesn't have a corruption, or their newly established practices would be corrupting them.  So there would seem to be a difference.

Believe you are right.  Technically didn't the Merlin enter people's minds to direct orders when Peabody was trying to escape?
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: raidem on September 21, 2017, 07:00:36 PM
I think the laws are meant to restrain wizards mainly per reason black council is rebelling. They have also served additional purpose to prevent corruption.  I'm not sure which is most important in why they were made: restraint or corruption.

There is a WOJ that THE MERLIN wouldn't approve of the how the White Council has dealt with the Laws, at least in some ways. 
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: groinkick on September 21, 2017, 07:07:40 PM
I think the laws are meant to restrain wizards mainly per reason black council is rebelling. They have also served additional purpose to prevent corruption.  I'm not sure which is most important in why they were made: restraint or corruption.

There is a WOJ that THE MERLIN wouldn't approve of the how the White Council has dealt with the Laws, at least in some ways.

I believe he compared it to real life government that has good intentions but basically goes too far.  Compared it to someone building an extended roof on a barn so a horse can be out of the rain and the government orders you to rip it down because you didn't get permission to do it.

I'd guess that the original Merlin would do more to help people who have screwed up, rather than chop their heads off.  Unlike Mab or Langtry who believes that laws are absolute , I think the Merlin may have seen the laws as a guide line to make the world better, not to kill every offender.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: dspringer1 on September 21, 2017, 07:54:30 PM
We are back to one of the classic points of disagreement on the forum.   Are the Laws of Magic something that both defines and designed primarily to block black magic, or are the Laws Of Magic primarily designed to constrain wizards from engaging in dangerous activities/dominating humanity which can include black magic. 

The only definitive statement in the text was the merlin or luccio (not sure which) stating that the laws of magic are intended to constrain wizards and protect regular humans from wizards.   And it is absolutely clear that at least some uses of magic the laws prohibit are clearly very black magic.  So there is enough evidence that can be brought to bear to keep both sides confident in the opinion.   

I am personally of the opinion that the laws of magic are about more than black magic, but restricting black magic is certainly a very good way to constrain wizards and protect regular humans from wizards.   But I am just one footsoldier in the vast armies that have lined up on both sides of this debate :)
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Griffyn612 on September 21, 2017, 09:27:06 PM
There is a WOJ that THE MERLIN wouldn't approve of the how the White Council has dealt with the Laws, at least in some ways.
I think the perfect example is Lea.  She became infected.  She was compromised.  But Mab took the time to heal her, even though there will always be a chance she could relapse.

In the same scenario, the Council would have killed her.

I think that's the difference between what Merlin would do, and what has become policy for his organization.  I think he would prefer saving people.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on September 21, 2017, 10:18:58 PM
The staff apparently feeds on the taint of black magic, I wonder if it could feed on sources of black magic like necromancy or outsiders. So the black staff could have at least partial immunity from the effects of nemesis.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Phariah on September 23, 2017, 11:57:25 PM
I like this question from the OP. I can see it as going a couple ways. one of course is harry as he becomes like a balance for magic as a Starborn meant to hold back the Outsiders. he will need to be vicious, using black magic so this helps him. (imho I say Harry comes up w/ a way to fight the taint on his own , not needing the Staff. but, I think Harry's Winter link might be a deciding factor possibly.) the other would be either Ramirez or Chandler. Harry will need allies strong enough to fight by his side. giving either would be of a major help. especially since losing the Staff would most likely mean Eb's death imho. don't like LTW would be a good choice. he has major issues and wouldn't fit him imho. although giving it to the Gatekeeper would be sweet. turbo charging a top ally would rock.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on September 24, 2017, 12:24:55 AM
Say nemesis needs black magic for some reason, so it potentially becomes vulnerable to that same energy. The whole you can't protect yourself from your own energy thing. Harry using the Blackstaff could turn the power against the bad guys.
Title: Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
Post by: Phariah on September 24, 2017, 12:42:40 AM
Say nemesis needs black magic for some reason, so it potentially becomes vulnerable to that same energy. The whole you can't protect yourself from your own energy thing. Harry using the Blackstaff could turn the power against the bad guys.
^ yup.
this is why I hope he gets some type of epiphany that helps him leave mab and give him some type of resistance to the taint. doing so gives the opportunity to boost and ally, by giving them the Staff. Harry will need support imho.