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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: pcpoet on December 12, 2015, 09:26:25 AM
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I have a really good group I meet with once a week. our group has six members and we our all working on a book. last week the subject of political correctness came up and how it effects writing. I was surprised when one in my group started to talk about how it ruins writing when it creeps into a book. this surprised me coming from her because she could not see how it was all over her criticism of other people writings and had crept into her own writing.. She is constantly telling us that character is sexist or an idea should not be presented because you will lose audience if you voice the idea. I was wondering how many here our feafull that some books our not being written because authors are afraid of a negative reaction from the publisher or if it is published by society.
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Simply put -- you can't have a all-PC cast of characters. If you do, you have a BORING book.
I will say this first -- I hate political correctness. I think it's something straight out of Orwell's 1984. If you don't like what someone is saying, either challenge them to a debate like a rational human being or walk away. Trying to cut off someone's speech because you don't agree with what the person is saying is WRONG. Everyone in the US has a right to free speech, but we also have the right to either challenge what the speaker is saying, or ignore them -- they don't have the right to have their view accepted by everyone. As long as they are not advocating violence against another person or group of people, they can speak their mind, no matter how stupid or vile it is. I personally think PC should be wrapped in chains, taken out in the middle of the ocean and dumped overboard
Back to writing. Sure, you can have PC characters, but most major characters have some anti-PC views. A warrior who's spent a lifetime fighting Orcs might believe that all Orcs should be exterminated. Barbarians are clearly non-PC characters -- they don't have the social graces or the right beliefs.
Readers want interesting characters. Interesting characters have flaws, are not perfect. Mary-Sues (And Gary-Sues) are to be avoided at all times. The sexist character you mentioned? Maybe they run into a member of the opposite sex that feels the same way they do, and there's an attraction/repelling effect going on between the two characters. Or they meet someone that forces them to reconsider their beliefs. Character conflict comes from opposing viewpoints, which means someone is not PC in their views.
Dion't let political correctness get in the way of your story. Write what you want to write, and don't worry about people getting huffy because they don't like one of your characters because their viewpoint doesn't line up with theirs. If they do get huffy about it, you don't need them.
Craig
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The PC crowd is essentially a bunch of pussies who want to control everyone's speech because they can't stand to hear anything that might disagree with, or might challenge them. It is, I think, a fusion of postmodernism and cultural Marxism being preached in universities and the inevitable result of the self-esteem movement of about 15, 20 years ago.
I've been hearing more and more stories of how it's infecting everything from tabletop RPGs and fiction publishing to journalism. Even the BBC is not immune. It's a cancer, it really is and it needs to dealt with, positively, before it does any more damage. Preferably with napalm.
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For what it's worth I feel like it can depend on the target audience, in the sense that a slightly higher degree of awareness of Political Correctness (or perhaps simple non-douchebaggery) should be present in YA stories. Not a complete absence of non-PC content, that would indeed be boring, but a little mor care to at least awknowledge the dissenting views?
That's just my gut reaction, I dont know if it has much of a leg to stand on, and I feel dirty even saying that much...
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Readers want interesting characters. Interesting characters have flaws, are not perfect.
This is one of the things that I find so paradoxical about this "radical PC" approach, if I may call it that. For an interesting story, you need flawed characters, it doesn't really work any other way. On the other hand, the PC approach kind of permits to put flaws on characters of some demographics, mainly those often called "diverse" or more bluntly "not straight white and male". And by doing that, you often end up with a quite diverse cast, including one "straight white male", and all the flaws you need for your story are dumped on this one "straight white male", in return making him the one character most people will be able to relate to most, when you are actually trying to achieve the opposite.
Incidentally, Pratchett has one of the best characters playing with this sort of thing in his Johnny Maxwell series: Yo-less. It's just playing around with stereotypes to the point of breaking them and gluing them back together, it's brilliant.
Dion't let political correctness get in the way of your story. Write what you want to write, and don't worry about people getting huffy because they don't like one of your characters because their viewpoint doesn't line up with theirs. If they do get huffy about it, you don't need them.
This is another thing that weirds me out with this sort of thing. If I write a sexist/racist/whatever character, that doesn't necessarily mean that I as an author am sexist/racist/whatever. I mean, I've seen people call Jim sexist because of the way Harry and Murphy treat each other. Pointing out the characters as being something is fine, maybe that's exactly what they are supposed to be, get a cookie and a gold star for noticing. But drawing a conclusion from that to the author is pretty far fetched, if you ask me, and completely uncalled for. I would hazard to guess that it says more about the person making the claim than the person being accused.
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You should see the flack that Stephen King has got for being honest with his characters and stories.
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Here's a blog post that should throw light on the subject (Warning: Strong language -- the writer is know for being blunt)
http://monsterhunternation.com/2015/12/15/ask-correia-18-creating-offensive-characters/ (http://monsterhunternation.com/2015/12/15/ask-correia-18-creating-offensive-characters/)
Craig
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the problem I have with the notion of political correctness is that it takes away judgment calls on things.....in life we are all going to have things we think are wrong that goes against others personnel belief in what is right and wrong.....I believe it is an authors job to use his story's to challenge the reader into making a value judgment getting the reader to say this wrong or this is wright. hopefully you as the writer are making good moral decisions but a lot of times we may not know that what we are presenting is a bigoted view because we are human and flawed.... when political correctness leaks into the writing process it does not allow us to explore because its wrong to even bring up the counter view on something like racism, homosexuality, religion , rape , politics.
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Eh, moderation, just like with anything else. I read a book recently where every single 'good' guy was a stereotyped victim class individual, and all of the 'bad' guys were stereotyped victimizer class individuals. The author had a fair amount of talent, but their book would have been much better if they had toned down the social warrior aspect of the book and concentrated on the story more.
There's absolutely NO reason why you can't write a niche book aimed at specific communities. It's been done many times. But if you want to write fiction for the masses, something that will pay the bills, you really should moderate how much of the real world's problems you jam into your fiction.
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Great Article Turtle, thanks for the share! And for the record Hell on Wheels is a fantastic show and the only one that's ever made me cry at one point...and it couldn't have done that if it had even remotely listened to PC whiners.
As someone who recently lost my best job ever due to PC-Bulls**t It can check itself at the door for MY writing.
Of course there is an advantage to writing sci-fi with Alien species, PC gets chucked out the window entirely...8)
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The great thing about amazon is unless its porn, a how to make illegal weapons and substances cook book or has any spelling errors you can publish whatever you want of any size or length or lack there of and they won't take it down. The so called 'masses' can literally vote with their feet.
So if you want to write about the lovely (yet militant) gay wales that hate jesus and want to fight whole heartedly against the patriarchy you can. Or conversely if you wanted to write a horror that followed a rapist around as he attacked people in the greater tri-state area so he could power a portal that would open to the demon dimension and suck the city into hell you could (sick and I would vocally protest such an author but there you go).
I would just add my voice to saying that attacking someone because they have 'a' character who is like x, y or z is not only lame, its counter productive. I mean people write about things they've never experienced before to try and tell and interesting story, or to try and imagine just what could drive these kind of people. Alternately you might have someone writing about something near and dear to their heart or that has been burning a hole in their mind and they just have to put it on paper and get it out there or they'll go crazy. I'm thinking victim of violence here trying to work their way through a tough patch, and maybe writing about this is their way of working through the problem. Return combat veterans, rape victims or other people who have experienced traumatic things. So authomatically crying foul because there's characters whose philosophy you disagree with seems to me to not only defy reality (there are any number of people I disagree with on a whole host of issues that I still have to interact with) or be a form of oppression. (waves fingers in the air in a hypnotic fashion)-you will only think, read, see and feel the things that we (the grand poobah's of all correct thought and speech patterns) allow.
In my books in a sideways manner I address this very thing by using a not (anymore since the revolution) very controversial topic. I have a character who often complains about the oppression he experienced under a democratic parliament (because he was simply born a royal - he didn't do anything wrong himself) and then lauds the benefits of having a strong monarchy. I'm not getting into the whole constitutional republic versus social democracy or elephant versus donkey of our current political system. I'm instead doing formerly corrupt Crown versus a currently corrupt Parliament.
All my characters on both sides of the issue believe in what they're doing and have reasons that they ascribe to their political belief that are heart felt and determined. I try to do it without making universal judgements, i.e. (I am the great Author and Editor of this universe and in here if you do not believe in unicorns and gumdrops you're WRONG and EVIL) The characters come into conflict and I show both the benefits and the ugly inconvenient truths that their side has to take ownership of.
But most importantly this is all back drop window dressing to what is mainly an action packed bugs, battleships and blaster fire epic Space Opera/Military Sci-fi.
I think if you get too excited in suppressing everything you don't agree with you'll miss oh so much. I mean if you get too politically correct you can't have Prince Charming because in reality his father was probably a Tyrant who didn't give enough rights to the people and taxed them into the ground to pay for the great epic tournament his knights had. And you can't have a Princess because being a princess she's part of the whole system of government that oppressed peoples rights and when they lost a war there was starvation in the streets. Same token you can't have dragons cause they eat people and that's murder. You can't have knights because they were all men and that's sexist. You can't have beautiful Lady's because that's perpatrating the oppression of women. See how they couldn't inherit and were forced to wear dresses and were cast out onto the streets or worse if they defied the social code.
Instead of fighting today's battles in the past as a social justice warrior (who probably didn't bother to research the many and varied ways that trying to force today's would be norms on a historical society without the technology to support it would blow up in your face - much like it did for many historical revolutionaries who tried and failed) and point out all the flaws of the middle ages. Why don't we instead have heroic knights and beautiful lady's and if the boys want to swing swords and look all muscular that's fine and if the women want to be beautiful and work at gossip and court intrigue that's fine too. Alternately if a member of the girl power movement wants to swing a sword and kick some butt and the guy wants to have soft hands and manipulate things from shadows of the court cool. Just make sure that the girl either addresses the literal physical differences between men and women by being big and beefy and working out like crazy or else give her magic powers that give her the arm strength of a man. Same thing for anything. Have fun. Just think it through. Its like overturning the inheritance laws in the middle ages. If you want to, go for it! Social justice it all out and make it right. But just remember that when it comes to farmers most women women can't push a plow for two hours, let alone a basic eight and this in a muscle powered world that when its time to plow you do so from sun up to sun down, so if the unmarried daughter inherited and none of the younger brothers stuck around everyone still on the farm is likely to starve cause they could only plant half or less of the fields and they are tax by the local lord half the produce of a fully planted farm leaving them with nothing to eat and they die. Unless of course you have magic. If so address and properly explain about the magic mushrooms they're planting or whatever it is. Then you can show why its not just a forced change but one that works.
I'm digressing. In short just write fun books that may touch upon touchy topics but aren't driven by them (unless that's your niche audience or what you love). If you love your book, then the people reading your book are probably going to love it also.
That's my best advise. Write what you love and don't sweat the small stuff.
The Deposed King
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political correctness has it's place in a ficitonal story,, it should be a tool for you to use, simple as that.
the purpose of fictional writing to to explore possibilities, not all possiblity are good, nor are they all politically correct, lets look at dresden, in jim (and harry's) own word, he a chauvinistic sexist pig, he does NOT treat woman equal to men, he is very politically incorrect
and thats part of his charm, people and readers LIKE him.
you will never appeal to all audience, ever, something you write will ALWAYS be offensive to someone, but so long as you write a intriguing story, it shouldn't matter.
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Interesting term, politically correct, I looked it up in wikipedia. A lot of slightly different meanings depending on the time and place and the political orientation of the person using the term.
But usually it only means "I do not like what you are saying and you are only saying it because of group pressure"
It might even be true but on itself it means nothing for the correctness of your statement. After all the guy who is accusing you of political correctness is only doing so because he is a member of another group and it is the political correct thing to do so for him. :)
And no examples, they are probably politically incorrect on this board, the wardens will find you. ;D
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We all have real-life political and religious views that if expressed here would offend someone (Which is why they are not allowed to be expressed here -- those are the two subjects that, withe 100% certainty, start flame wars and have the mods come in with the tear gas and rubber hoses and toss suspensions around like confetti)
Character personal views/beliefs are important -- common conflicts in stories is the clash of these views/beliefs either through speech or action. TLOTR is basically Saron wanting his Ring back (His view/belief) while Frodo and the others don't want him to have it (they want to destroy the Ring -- their view/belief).
The clash of views/beliefs is where conflict comes from. A character's views/beliefs are not wrong to them -- no matter how stupid, evil, wrong, or alien it is to any other character. THEY believe they are right and the other person is wrong. A villain NEVER thinks their views/beliefs are wrong or evil -- Real History are full of people who killed millions because they followed those beliefs and thought they were right. Yet, looking back at those event, we can see they were wrong, evil, and inhumane. Yet, there are some, despite all that has happen, who still believe in those views.
The two main character in conflict are going to have different beliefs and ideas. The differences could be minor, or epic, shades of gray or stark black and white. Even among comrades who feel the same as the man character, there are going to different beliefs, thoughts and attitudes. This could lead to subplots exploring these Beliefs (See Leglos and Gimli from LOTR for an example of conflict between allied characters)
If a main character is PC, other characters can't be PC -- or there is no conflict. Without it, a story is less intresting and less deep.
Craig
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The wonderful thing about this world is that there are huge groups of people who love all kinds of writing. Write what you want.
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You can not please all readers all the time. You can only write to please yourself and hope that what you write resonates with many if not most of your readers. A well written story with an interesting plot and interesting characters is the most important thing to focus on. Trying to be PC to everyone is impossible and not worth the effort to worry about it.
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My only caveat to this might be if you previously wrote something the audience loved and then changed and they fell off. Then just go back to what worked before!
I once read this author that did a great series with an alien adventure and exploration plot line. Loved-loved-loved it. The she changed, a new series came out the aliens were still in there but now it was all focused on illegal terra-forming destroying pristine worlds out in the galaxy and the need to save the planets by going green and my interest dropped like a rock. Go back to that amazing series you wrote in the beginning please! Alien culture and adventure and discovery! Not 'just and only' mankind is bad, fight the big corporations etc. Mic it up maybe 50/50?
The Deposed King
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I know there have been very good stories that are, at their heart, parables about things like protecting the environment and so on. But, maybe it's just that they are done lightly, instead of heavy-handedly. I don't know many readers that enjoy reading books that seem to be preaching or sermonizing on a social topic.
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I know there have been very good stories that are, at their heart, parables about things like protecting the environment and so on. But, maybe it's just that they are done lightly, instead of heavy-handedly. I don't know many readers that enjoy reading books that seem to be preaching or sermonizing on a social topic.
That's what has been the blow-up with the Hugos the last couple of years. A group of fans believe the awards are more about PC work than actual merit, and has resulted in a bitter fight over who is nominated and wins. A real nasty situation......
Craig
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I know there have been very good stories that are, at their heart, parables about things like protecting the environment and so on. But, maybe it's just that they are done lightly, instead of heavy-handedly. I don't know many readers that enjoy reading books that seem to be preaching or sermonizing on a social topic.
There are otherwise completely good and honest people on both sides of such issues as god, religion, human made global warming, politics etc. who don't want to hear that they're on the wrong headed destroyer of worlds side of the argument and thus need a college level lecture in the middle of their entertainment escapism novel. Not so many on the flat earth, gravity doesn't exist if you believe strongly enough/have pixie dust, aging can be reversed by yoga, the moon is made out of green cheese and other genuine adult believers in such things as santa clause and his reindeer.
Yet I think it is when exactly you try to treat people in the first group like they are members of the second while happily ignore the second that the real trouble begins.
For the most part people come to us for entertainment. saving a world from ecological collapse, racing against time and begging borrowing or stealing ancient elder tech terra-formers can be fun, being told that humanity did it and our current path of living in real life leads to total annihilation isn't. Having angels, magic and demons return to the earth is or can be really cool but writing that atheists are suddenly being dragged down to hell as a natural result of angelic activity is going to offend a lot of people. And honestly where's the fun in it?
The Deposed King
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I'll just add that throwing in real life problems and situations is all well and good, do it by all means.
Poking fun at things can be good too done right. I just try to make a point not to be out there willfully and beligerently sacrificing anyone's sacred cows.
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PC -ness has turned Hermione and Mary Jane black and made Iron Man and other male Marvel characters female.
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Political Correctness is always a questionable topic. I personally think that it depends on one's target audience. If you're writing for adults then screw it and insult away, maybe they will learn something as they read your work. It's possible if unlikely due to adults being rather set in their ways and frankly you can't please everyone. For everyone out there parading your book because you did something like have an openly gay character or a black character there is another hissing that you have some political agenda and are forcing it down people's throats. There's no real win in the situation.
For a younger audience though it's trickier. Most people aren't out to teach sexism or racism but a younger audience picks up on the most random things. Parents can also be the biggest idiots about what is put in front of their child. Case in point the Harry Potter series and how people were saying it was teaching children witchcraft or the classic scare in the 80's with parents freaking out over D&D games.
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PC -ness has turned Hermione and Mary Jane black and made Iron Man and other male Marvel characters female.
I will say that this has nothing to do with political correctness, and everything to do with the fact that you go with the actor/actress' performance skills in stage theater, not their looks. Theater is full of non-typical castings like this.
As for the literature segment, I think that is more of "we have been milking this cash cow for so long we are running out of reboot ideas."
Although personally the change doesn't bother me in the slightest. When there can be canon story lines of Batman taking place on "Everyone is a Pirate world" I think it's more that everything is prone to change rather than political correctness.
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For the longest time, the majority of geekdom was white male creators marketing mainly white male characters to a mostly white male audience. Geekdom is broadening so companies are going the easy route of twisting established characters to fit the expanding demographics instead of creating and building up new characters. Long run possibility established audience loses identification and interest.
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By making starbuck, the ghost busters and various other icons either female or minorities you are either cnoeging an inconvenient truth or infatalizing entire segment of the population by saying that they couldn't possibly come up with something just as cool unique character on their own. Either way its the height of bubkiss
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By making starbuck, the ghost busters and various other icons either female or minorities you are either cnoeging an inconvenient truth or infatalizing entire segment of the population by saying that they couldn't possibly come up with something just as cool unique character on their own. Either way its the height of bubkiss
Or, you have a whole generation of creative communities actually cant come up with anything, that are stuck in the Remake/Reboot mentality and somehow missing the critical ingredient to the sort of originality that once flourished. (Creative Talent, Courage to Innovate, Non-douchebag executives, etc)
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Take a black female like Storm and make her a white male and see the $#!tstorm that follows.
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LOL
The Deposed King
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Take a black female like Storm and make her a white male and see the $#!tstorm that follows.
You arent wrong (though lets be honest shitstorms happen for every change regardless of PC connotations. Geeks hate Change :)). But if you gave Storm a white male sidekick with the same general powerset, breaking the older tradition of your batgirls and supergirls of these worlds, you'd probably be fine. You could even retire/kill her and ahve a new weather mutant take up the name and probably be ok as long as the new character was established. Not sure I see that as any different than the new Riri Williams/Ironheart or Jane Foster as Thor that people seem to hate all of the sudden. I dont mind mantles being passed, for me the key is not retconning the original character.
And none of those bothered me anything like the travesty that is the Superior Spiderman :P
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Anytime Spiderman is not wholly Peter Parker is wrong. He has been the everygeek for 50 years.
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Anytime Spiderman is not wholly Peter Parker is wrong. He has been the everygeek for 50 years.
Im willing to allow Ben Reilly the pseudo-clone, but stupid mind-swapping with stupid villains for stupid stupid (High quality verbiage right there.... )
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Im willing to allow Ben Reilly the pseudo-clone, but stupid mind-swapping with stupid villains for stupid stupid (High quality verbiage right there.... )
For what it was worth, I loved the Superior Spider-Man. Really fresh take on the same old things Spiderman's been beating into the ground year after year, though I wish it had stuck a bit more with the ways Otto Octavius is actually much more efficient as a hero than Peter Parker and not taken the easy way out of dropping him back into villainy.