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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Griffyn612 on August 01, 2021, 09:18:10 PM
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I've mentioned before that I think Mac is the transubstantiated form of the archangel Raphael, and that he gave his Grace to Merlin in order to build Demonreach similar to how Raphael made Dudael as an earthly prison for Azazel, and that Alfred is a construct -- or "vessel", as he calls himself -- to hold the Grace.
That's a quick summary, but I'm sure the posts are somewhere.
Anywho, I just posted elsewhere that Maeve seemed to know Justine was infected in Cold Days. She even said in her victory speech that if she died, the mantle would go to a "hapless mortal" (Molly) or "an instrument of some foe of [Mab's]" (Justine).
The whole reason Justine was there was to act as insurance to keep Maeve alive or keep the Lady mantle out of the rotation.
Since Justine was there for a specific reason, it stands that Mac was too. They weren't just kidnapped earlier and then brought along for no reason.
I posit that Mac was there because of his relationship with the island prison. I think part of the gambit was to put Mac in jeopardy, in hopes that the island would act to save him, or he'd take the Grace back to save himself, or his death would weaken the defenses.
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It's a very interesting idea.
Maeve commented that his presence there was ironic before shooting him. I wonder what was ironic about it (his grace being where he'd die?). He has fast healing (his wrists healed from the ropes, and the gunshot wound after Mab removed the bullet). He told Murphy he was out before passing out when she asked what he was.
I'm not sure his grace is tied to the Island but it may be. Him not healing while the bullet was inside but did heal after Mab removed it does suggest he may be connected to the Sidhe in some way as the bullet would neutralize a Fairy's healing abilities.
I do think he's part of the Angel's but not sure how exactly. Could he be a Fallen who's actually not a bad guy? Jim did say some of the Fallen were people who sat on the fence and chose not to fight.
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I do think he's part of the Angel's but not sure how exactly. Could he be a Fallen who's actually not a bad guy? Jim did say some of the Fallen were people who sat on the fence and chose not to fight.
I think he is one of the Fallen who fell because he liked the human ladies... He broke the rules by having sex with them if I understand my research correctly, so he cannot go back to Heaven but he isn't exactly evil either.
This is what I think Mac is;
The New American Bible commentary draws a parallel to the Epistle of Jude and the statements set forth in Genesis, suggesting that the Epistle refers implicitly to the paternity of Nephilim as heavenly beings who came to earth and had sexual intercourse with women.
Also this from Genesis
“When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the Lord said, ‘My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.’
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
I think that plan ran into problems and the Nephilim fell as a result, so it is possible that this what Mac is or the son of..
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Personally in the Nephilim camp. Mac's a father- evidence his speech to Harry.
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I'm sold on the Mac = Raphael sans Grace theory, tbh. Mac taking back the Grace as a temptation to keep from being killed could be a long shot move in order to tempt the angel into releasing the prisoners from under Demonreach. Not necessarily something that would be expected, but its better for your moves to have multiple victory conditions you can meet if you can arrange it. That's what Mab did there, too.
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I'm not sure Mac could have completely transubstantiated and still match with what we've seen in the books. When Uriel lent his Grace to Michael in Skin Game and started bleeding, there's no mention of the cut healing, and I think Uriel has to stem the blood.
I'm firmly in the "Mac was an antediluvian Watcher who Fell because he sired at least one child with a human" camp, but you do raise an interesting counterproposal. It does indeed seem strange that Mac was brought to Demonreach. Harry's connection with Mac is pretty damn loose. It'd be like kidnapping Jason Bourne's barber, wouldn't it? Of course he'd try to get him back, but it's not like Harry's relationship with Mac is extremely close or anything. I've at least never gotten that sense.
Molly, Carlos, Murphy, Susan (pre-death, obviously), Maggie, Michael, Thomas, Butters, Luccio... all of them would make better motivating targets to use against Harry. Mac's on the list, but he's somewhere near the middle at best, in my opinion. And Justine alone would've been plenty to use as a hostage. Sarilla makes sense too, for the reasons you mentioned—good to have the backup vessels at hand, and that's all shown clearly.
So why Mac? There's something to it, I completely agree.
I see two possibilities that can fit. First is your theory: I could be totally wrong, and Mac indeed used his Grace to help build Demonreach. "Raphael" would fit, at least in terms of the name's meaning, which literally means "God heals," (Hebrew origin) so that meshes well with the one supernatural ability Mac's demonstrated on the page. "McAnally" means "Son of the poor man" (Gaelic origin), if anyone's interested.
To continue in this vein, I'll ask an absurd question: what if Demonreach (the genius loci itself/Alfred, not the prison or the Island) is Mac's old Grace? When Lasciel and Harry had a "baby," it became a spirit of Intellect. Angels themselves are specifically mentioned as possessing Intellectus during the explanation in Turn Coat:
"Intellectus," I said. "Um. It's a mode of existence for a very few rare and powerful supernatural beings—angels have it. I'm willing to bet Mother Winter and Mother Summer have it. For beings with intellectus, all reality exists in one piece, one place, one moment, and they can look at the whole thing." (Turn Coat, page 281 on Nook).
The interesting part to me is that Intellectus is described in two completely different ways in the same paragraph. I underlined and bolded the part that's relevant to me: if it is indeed a "mode of existence" (rather than something an entity possesses), that indicates, to me, that Intellectus is a state more than it is a capability. Harry's experience with it is one that is shared, not something Harry himself has.
So in this adjacent theory, I think you're mostly right, but I'd posit that the Demonreach entity was born of Mac's Grace, rather than something he lent to Merlin (the way Uriel lent his to Michael). That very well might have been what allowed Merlin to construct the prison across time; because he was working with Grace, which (going by Harry's words) is a mode of existence that experiences time all at once, all he had to do was form some kind of thaumaturgic connection between the Grace and the physical location. That connection would need to be strong, but not necessarily ultra complicated, which is kinda how Bob describes the runes Harry has him examine, if I recall correctly—the complexity comes from them overlapping across time, I think, not from anything native to the wards themselves.
Possibility number two goes back to Mac being one of the Watchers. The Book of Enoch states that the angels who sired the Nephilim Fell, and were "bound in the valleys of the Earth," until Judgment Day.
Wild theory: what if the prison of Demonreach was the location in which those Fallen angels were bound? I posited in another thread that 8-10k years ago, Chicago was the bottom of a lake, carved out by retreating glaciers, and that Chicago may very well be the valley described Enoch. Demonreach itself is even further below Chicago (Chicago Under Chicago, maybe, the opposite to Chicago Over Chicago depicted in Summer Knight). Mac, a Watcher, sired a Nephilim with a human, and in order to avoid permanent bondage in Demonreach, chose to transubstantiate. His Grace instead was caught and imprisoned there. It's also hypothetically possible in this wild theory that "out" literally means "out of prison," meaning Mac escaped Demonreach, maybe by leaving his Grace behind as ballast (the way Santa stays behind in Cold Days while Harry and the Wild Hunt head to the Island). It's possible there'd be a reaction if Mac is injured so close to his imprisoned Grace, or maybe the "attack" on the prison was somehow using the connection between Mac and his Grace.
Well, anyway, I'm at least glad we can think about this for real rather than throwing out WMGs about what Mac even is. I remember someone claiming (maybe on here, maybe elsewhere; it was many years ago) that Mac was the original Mother Summer, who abdicated. When it's obvious that that title belongs to Mrs. Spunkelcrief.
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I don't see Mac as one of the Big Names like Raphael. Possibly a Grigori - watchers sent to Earth, partied it up, fathered the Nephilim, and were told "Don't come back". They are not banned to Hell, and I don't know they are jailed or bound to any one place. Uriel could be running Mac as his observer, watching Harry. Mac is atoning for his misdeeds. hoping to return to Heaver. Think Uriel would employ one of those guys if he thought they were sincere and willing to work it off?
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I don't see Mac as one of the Big Names like Raphael. Possibly a Grigori - watchers sent to Earth, partied it up, fathered the Nephilim, and were told "Don't come back". They are not banned to Hell, and I don't know they are jailed or bound to any one place. Uriel could be running Mac as his observer, watching Harry. Mac is atoning for his misdeeds. hoping to return to Heaver. Think Uriel would employ one of those guys if he thought they were sincere and willing to work it off?
Here's a fun thought.
Where does wizardry come from? My wife and I have long thought it was something like a recessive Changeling- wizards being later-generation descendants of Scions, and that's part of why they "harden" as they get older, and why using their power starts to constrict their choices.
What if the Grigori fathered wizardry? In that case, Mac is watching over his descendants.
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Since Raphael was the archangel tapped with punishing the fallen Grigori, and was referred to as a watcher himself, my guess is that he was in charge of at least that group of Grigori, which is why their punishment fell to him, and why he might feel responsible for everything they did.
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Since Raphael was the archangel tapped with punishing the fallen Grigori, and was referred to as a watcher himself, my guess is that he was in charge of at least that group of Grigori, which is why their punishment fell to him, and why he might feel responsible for everything they did.
Could be! I'm pretty sure he is an Angel, and also a Fallen Watcher. I guess the main question is he a Named Angel? Someone from Theology.
I wonder what Before meant when he said "You chose your road, Watcher, now lay in it" or words to that effect. I wonder if Angels are immune to Outsiders, and that Heaven is in no danger from them. So by saying that he was talking about how Mac fell, making himself vulnerable to the Outside like all those in the Inside.
I also wonder if Mab, as a mortal, was a love interest of Mac and why he fell? I know the Fallen are probably supposed to be long before Mab as a mortal but she does seem to have affection for him.
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First is your theory: I could be totally wrong, and Mac indeed used his Grace to help build Demonreach. "Raphael" would fit, at least in terms of the name's meaning, which literally means "God heals," (Hebrew origin) so that meshes well with the one supernatural ability Mac's demonstrated on the page. "McAnally" means "Son of the poor man" (Gaelic origin), if anyone's interested.
Or, if this is an accurate source, one origin of MacAnally means 'son of the chief bard or physician.'
https://forebears.io/surnames/mcanally (https://forebears.io/surnames/mcanally)
The angel who's name means "God Heals" or "God has healed" taking a name that means "son of the chief physician"...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I think he was the original Gate Keeper.
@groinkick
“You!” Sharkface snarled. “You have no place in this, watcher. Do you think this gesture has meaning? It is every bit as empty as you. You chose your road long ago. Have the grace to lie down and die beside it.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 229). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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I think he was the original Gate Keeper.
@groinkick
“You!” Sharkface snarled. “You have no place in this, watcher. Do you think this gesture has meaning? It is every bit as empty as you. You chose your road long ago. Have the grace to lie down and die beside it.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 229). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I mean, Sharkface literally calls Mac empty and talks about grace in that line. Pretty strong evidence of an angelic vessel that's given away Grace for a purpose. :)
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I mean, Sharkface literally calls Mac empty and talks about grace in that line. Pretty strong evidence of an angelic vessel that's given away Grace for a purpose. :)
Oh I missed that! Ok I'm really leaning towards Griff's theory. Especially since Maeve said it was ironic that Mac would die on the Island (where in theory his grace is being used to power it). Another possibility could be that the Angels watched the Outer Gates and also set up the Demon Reach prison. They then handed over responsibility to mortal kind. Mac could have been the angelic Warden of the place.
I think he was the original Gate Keeper.
@groinkick
That could also be true. I was reading about the Gates of Heaven (I think there are 3). Perhaps one of them leads to the Outside and it was Mac who as an Angel watched the Outer Gates.
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Oh I missed that! Ok I'm really leaning towards Griff's theory. Especially since Maeve said it was ironic that Mac would die on the Island (where in theory his grace is being used to power it). Another possibility could be that the Angels watched the Outer Gates and also set up the Demon Reach prison. They then handed over responsibility to mortal kind. Mac could have been the angelic Warden of the place.
That could also be true. I was reading about the Gates of Heaven (I think there are 3). Perhaps one of them leads to the Outside and it was Mac who as an Angel watched the Outer Gates.
I think it's also interesting that Mab calls Raphael the Demon Binder (I think it was in SmF?). There are alternative explanations, but if you're gonna call something a demon binder in the DV, somebody giving the juice for Demonreach is probably a good fit for the nickname.
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I think it's also interesting that Mab calls Raphael the Demon Binder (I think it was in SmF?). There are alternative explanations, but if you're gonna call something a demon binder in the DV, somebody giving the juice for Demonreach is probably a good fit for the nickname.
Raphael isn't known for much in the source material, but what he *is* known for is binding demons. Twice at least. So it's a fitting description regardless.
But yeah, her comment in SmF wouldn't be about Mac. It'd be about Alfred. He's the vessel for the Grace (he calls himself a vessel), so Mab would see him as the bearer of the "mantle". So I think it could work.
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Upon rereading/listening to Proven Guilty, Lash describes the ward guarding the Carpenter's safe room as a working by Rafael or one of his lieutenants. I don't know that this entirely negates Mac as being Rafael, but I think it's food for thought. A nibble at least.
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Upon rereading/listening to Proven Guilty, Lash describes the ward guarding the Carpenter's safe room as a working by Rafael or one of his lieutenants. I don't know that this entirely negates Mac as being Rafael, but I think it's food for thought. A nibble at least.
Yeah, that's come up before. The hand wave possibilities are
- Lasciel fell before Raphael would have transubstantiated and didn't recognize Mac for what he was. (seems unlikely)
- She started saying Raphael and then remembered he wouldn't be available so she added the leuitenant bit.
- She thinks Mac, even powerless, could have made the wards, and was in town to do so.
- These aren't the wards you're looking for.
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I don't think Mac has lost his Grace, I think he has chosen not to use it.
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I don't think Mac has lost his Grace, I think he has chosen not to use it.
Yes, I think there is something to that, I think Mac is unique. For whatever reason he has opted out and has been granted that privilege, most of the supernatural community seems to understand that fact and don't question his status. I think if he were condemned something would have stopped him from adding his blood to the Placard to protect those in the bar.
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Raphael isn't known for much in the source material, but what he *is* known for is binding demons. Twice at least. So it's a fitting description regardless.
But yeah, her comment in SmF wouldn't be about Mac. It'd be about Alfred. He's the vessel for the Grace (he calls himself a vessel), so Mab would see him as the bearer of the "mantle". So I think it could work.
One thing to note is that Harry said something about Alfred being an Elemental when being attacked by the Lady's. Vulnerable to elemental magic? I don't remember. But it may be a clue
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One thing to note is that Harry said something about Alfred being an Elemental when being attacked by the Lady's. Vulnerable to elemental magic? I don't remember. But it may be a clue
The fae are the collective nature spirits of the world's cultures. As a genus loci, Alfred isn't too far away from that realm. As rulers of those nature spirits, the Ladies had some limited amount of Authority they could use to influence the genus loci. Not enough to be definitive or give commands to it, but the one of the Ladies probably stood a better chance than say the Archive would. Even though she has a similiar magnitude of power.
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One thing to note is that Harry said something about Alfred being an Elemental when being attacked by the Lady's. Vulnerable to elemental magic? I don't remember. But it may be a clue
I couldn't find a reference to Alfred being "vulnerable" or an "elemental", but I doubt read, I just used word search, so there may be something similar.
I did see where bits were coming off of Alfred's form, so the attack was doing something. But Mab seemed to imply that he could done more, which I took to mean Alfred could have taken them out. So I'm not sure how vulnerable he actually was to only a frontal assault without the big spell elsewhere.
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I couldn't find a reference to Alfred being "vulnerable" or an "elemental", but I doubt read, I just used word search, so there may be something similar.
I did see where bits were coming off of Alfred's form, so the attack was doing something. But Mab seemed to imply that he could done more, which I took to mean Alfred could have taken them out. So I'm not sure how vulnerable he actually was to only a frontal assault without the big spell elsewhere.
It's in ch.50 of CD
Not only that, but Demonreach was a genius loci, a nature spirit. The fae were intimately connected to nature on a level that no one had ever been able to fully understand. One could probably make an argument that Demonreach was one of the fae, or at least a very close neighbor. Either way, the mantles of the Ladies of Winter and Summer would carry a measure of dominion and power over beings like Demonreach. Clearly they were not sovereign over the guardian spirit, because it was withstanding them. Just as clearly, they had something going for them, because it wasn't trying to crush them either.
The "elemental" idea probably came from ch.48
And suddenly I felt very stupid. What the fuck had I been thinking? The Queens of Faerie, even the least of them, were elemental powers, something that was simply out of the league of any mortal.
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I couldn't find a reference to Alfred being "vulnerable" or an "elemental", but I doubt read, I just used word search, so there may be something similar.
I did see where bits were coming off of Alfred's form, so the attack was doing something. But Mab seemed to imply that he could done more, which I took to mean Alfred could have taken them out. So I'm not sure how vulnerable he actually was to only a frontal assault without the big spell elsewhere.
The full defenses of the island weren't up at that time either, Harry was named Warden, but other than be aware of all the crap that was going on, he didn't know how to run it yet. What I am saying without his Warden, Alfred is vulnerable along with the island.. At the end of Ghost Story Mab referred to Harry as Alfred's Custodian. I think it is more complicated than just responsibility for the island, Alfred's welfare is also Harry's responsibility. Maeve's timing was no accident, if she had delayed and Harry had time to learn his job, I doubt she would have gotten as far as she did. She wouldn't get that far now, at the end of Battle Ground Harry said that HWWB tried to sneak in as Justine because now it had to be let in, otherwise it couldn't breech the island's defenses.
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I couldn't find a reference to Alfred being "vulnerable" or an "elemental", but I doubt read, I just used word search, so there may be something similar.
I did see where bits were coming off of Alfred's form, so the attack was doing something. But Mab seemed to imply that he could done more, which I took to mean Alfred could have taken them out. So I'm not sure how vulnerable he actually was to only a frontal assault without the big spell elsewhere.
"Demonreach was a genius loci, a nature spirit. The fae were intimately connected to nature on a level that no one had ever been able to fully understand. One could probably make an argument that Demonreach was one of the fae, or at least a very close neighbor." Cold Days page 473 Hard Cover.
Harry of course isn't a perfect source of information, and that doesn't discount Angel's being involved. I wouldn't be surprised if an Archangel were powering it, with angel wards + Merlin using mortal magic + Sidhe magic all working together to bind the evil's that are there.
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It's in ch.50 of CD
The "elemental" idea probably came from ch.48
That makes sense. I'd probably argue that Harry was partly guessing at that point, based on Mab thanking Alfred for not handling things differently. I'm guessing he could have smacked them down, and Harry's presumption that he hadn't because he couldn't was likely wrong.
But I can definitely see where they might have some agency over the aspects of Alfred that are tied to nature.
"Demonreach was a genius loci, a nature spirit. The fae were intimately connected to nature on a level that no one had ever been able to fully understand. One could probably make an argument that Demonreach was one of the fae, or at least a very close neighbor." Cold Days page 473 Hard Cover.
Harry of course isn't a perfect source of information, and that doesn't discount Angel's being involved. I wouldn't be surprised if an Archangel were powering it, with angel wards + Merlin using mortal magic + Sidhe magic all working together to bind the evil's that are there.
I think it's definitely more than just angelic Grace running things. But the fact that the raw power of the circle invoked Molly to think her mom would talk in her church voice seems suggestive of the nature of it.
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That makes sense. I'd probably argue that Harry was partly guessing at that point, based on Mab thanking Alfred for not handling things differently. I'm guessing he could have smacked them down, and Harry's presumption that he hadn't because he couldn't was likely wrong.
But I can definitely see where they might have some agency over the aspects of Alfred that are tied to nature.
I think it's definitely more than just angelic Grace running things. But the fact that the raw power of the circle invoked Molly to think her mom would talk in her church voice seems suggestive of the nature of it.
Yeah, I don't think "couldn't smack them down" is accurate, but the fact that it wasn't clear cut whether or not they actually had some small valid authority over him gave Alfred pause about whether or not it would be an appropriate action.
To make a metaphor, I think angelic grace is the original power and framework forming the prison, evil B.O. helps to power it and keep it going (like those finger trap toys where pulling harder actually works against you), and the genus loci is the user interface for utilizing it.
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Yeah, I don't think "couldn't smack them down" is accurate, but the fact that it wasn't clear cut whether or not they actually had some small valid authority over him gave Alfred pause about whether or not it would be an appropriate action.
To make a metaphor, I think angelic grace is the original power and framework forming the prison, evil B.O. helps to power it and keep it going (like those finger trap toys where pulling harder actually works against you), and the genus loci is the user interface for utilizing it.
I'm close to that, but without tapping the Well to power it. I don't think there's a need for that if the build with the Grace was done correctly, and if it was an archangel's Grace.
If Michael borrowed a jumbo jet to use as a pen light, then I think Merlin borrowed a jet liner, tore the wings off, shoved the fuselage in the ground, stuffed it full of inmates, and used the engines to eject their oxygen up and out so they're too weak to try to escape, took a pre-existing shepherd of the land and gave it control in the cockpit, and slapped a headset on it, told it to obey whatever the person on the other end said to do, and gave it the ability to pick who was worthy of holding the other headset.
Admittedly that's being a bit literal with the analogy, but still.
Meanwhile the former pilot is Out of a job based on the Choice he made. All he was left with was the drink cart, so he wandered off and opened a bar.
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I'm close to that, but without tapping the Well to power it. I don't think there's a need for that if the build with the Grace was done correctly, and if it was an archangel's Grace.
If Michael borrowed a jumbo jet to use as a pen light, then I think Merlin borrowed a jet liner, tore the wings off, shoved the fuselage in the ground, stuffed it full of inmates, and used the engines to eject their oxygen up and out so they're too weak to try to escape, took a pre-existing shepherd of the land and gave it control in the cockpit, and slapped a headset on it, told it to obey whatever the person on the other end said to do, and gave it the ability to pick who was worthy of holding the other headset.
Admittedly that's being a bit literal with the analogy, but still.
Meanwhile the former pilot is Out of a job based on the Choice he made. All he was left with was the drink cart, so he wandered off and opened a bar.
Yeah, close enough. I can get behind that.
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Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.
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Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.
The same way Uriel did? Give it to OG Merlin who uses it to create the prison.
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Uriel was acting to take back Nic's knights, so I'm not seeing this as a violation of the rules. Nor did he just give it away and go off to run a tavern in Chicago.
I see Mac as more of a guy who got tired of angelic wars who just walked away. As long as he had his grace, and chose to use it, the placard became a keep out of death card since with his grace Mac is an immortal.
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Uriel was acting to take back Nic's knights, so I'm not seeing this as a violation of the rules. Nor did he just give it away and go off to run a tavern in Chicago.
I see Mac as more of a guy who got tired of angelic wars who just walked away. As long as he had his grace, and chose to use it, the placard became a keep out of death card since with his grace Mac is an immortal.
The Rules are still pretty mysterious. I don't think it's clear that giving mortals the strength to choose to lock up the worst of the worst is outside the bounds.
Uriel got his Grace returned. For a Mac=Raphael, that wouldn't be the case. Might as well open a bar nearby.
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Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.
Actually, I think that they don't have unlimited free will as mortals do. I think it's important to qualify it. Clearly they have some measure of it otherwise they couldn't choose to Fall at all - Jim mentioned this in an interview some time back. But that isn't to say they have the same amount of freedom mortals do.
I suspect it really comes down to Angels really only having a small number of choices. Maybe only 2. They can choose to Fall, and go against their true nature (I'm assuming). Or they can choose not to Fall - which is a choice in itself. I'm not so sure that they can choose to redeem themselves...but I would like that to be the case.
Mortals on the other hand seem to be able to make choices left and right, but I think their choices either give them more or less freedom the more they make.
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Yeah, close enough. I can get behind that.
I'm just not sure where the roots come into it, and if that was just inherent to using a genus loci, or if it's a world tree connection.
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I'm just not sure where the roots come into it, and if that was just inherent to using a genus loci, or if it's a world tree connection.
I'm thinking it's the roots of the world tree.
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I mean, Sharkface literally calls Mac empty and talks about grace in that line. Pretty strong evidence of an angelic vessel that's given away Grace for a purpose. :)
Not necessarily given for a purpose. Could be read as he fell by giving himself to worldly pleasures, and was stripped of his Grace. More like squandered. And now, maybe by watching, he is trying to atone.
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Here's a fun thought.
Where does wizardry come from? My wife and I have long thought it was something like a recessive Changeling- wizards being later-generation descendants of Scions, and that's part of why they "harden" as they get older, and why using their power starts to constrict their choices.
What if the Grigori fathered wizardry? In that case, Mac is watching over his descendants.
Could be. Wizards tend to run in families - Eb-Harry, Charity-Molly, Luccio has been checking on hers. The Knights appear, at least yet, to be descendants of kings - Charlemagne (Michael), Saladin (Sanya), Shiro from the last king of Okinawa (Sho Tai? ). Harry was working that line of thought at one time.
In Simon Hawke's Wizard books all wizards are descended not from angels, but a supernatural race of Old Ones who subjugated humans, warred amongst themselves, and the humans all but wiped them out. Some went native and interbred - if you are a wizard you have some Old One lineage. Not near as intricate as the Dresden series, though.
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Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.
If he is Grigori, he lost his by ignoring the Watcher rules and becoming involved in the world - wine, women, and song. The Grigori are not damned to Hell - but they were told "Don't come back, you're fired". The Grace was stripped from them, not surrendered
(old TV show - "Branded" opening credits, a court-martialed Chuck Connors has his cavalry sabre taken and broken, his badges of rank ripped off, and he is sent out the gates of the stockade, and they close behind him.... something like that)
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If he is Grigori, he lost his by ignoring the Watcher rules and becoming involved in the world - wine, women, and song. The Grigori are not damned to Hell - but they were told "Don't come back, you're fired". The Grace was stripped from them, not surrendered
(old TV show - "Branded" opening credits, a court-martialed Chuck Connors has his cavalry sabre taken and broken, his badges of rank ripped off, and he is sent out the gates of the stockade, and they close behind him.... something like that)
Yeah, I think that is about the closest to what he really is, I also think it is possible that he has been satisfied with his lot up until now. The coming BAT is going to force Mac to take a stand once again which may atone for his mistakes in the past. We've seen hints of that since Storm Front when he loaned his car keys to Harry so he could go and stop Victor Sells, to Battle Front when he put a smear of his blood on the back of the Placard and allowed it to be hung up in the bar.
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Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.
Uriel gave his Grace away. Maybe Raphael did too, knowing it'd be a lot longer before he got it back. A.K.A. the end of the world.
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Uriel gave his Grace away. Maybe Raphael did too, knowing it'd be a lot longer before he got it back. A.K.A. the end of the world.
Uriel loaned his Grace temporarily to Michael a Holy Knight to complete a mission, that isn't the same as giving his Grace away.
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Uriel loaned his Grace temporarily to Michael a Holy Knight to complete a mission, that isn't the same as giving his Grace away.
By that argument, Raph could have loaned his Grace to Merlin for a couple thousand years to complete a mission.
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Angels don't have free will
I believe this to be misunderstood information (I don't understand it to be honest, it's paradoxical). The Angels must have free will as we know it. They were able to revolt (and fall). Uriel was able to choose to lend his Grace to Michael knowing that there was a chance Michael would misuse it. All of the Fallen who do bad things were Angels.
I guess there could have been a change of some kind after the revolt and the angels are much more absolute (to the point of no free will) and unable to fall as long as they don't lend their grace out.
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Uriel loaned his Grace temporarily to Michael a Holy Knight to complete a mission, that isn't the same as giving his Grace away.
I'd say that keeping nightmares, and dark gods locked up is a pretty important mission.
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Also, not to be a downer but in Cold Days the magic is specifically described as mortal.
Not sure if it rules out the Grace theory definitively though.
“So arrogant,” Lily said. “You reek of arrogance and deception, like all wizards. Even the famous Merlin, who built this abomination.” Her eyes narrowed. “But as complex as it is, it is still made of mortal magic. This circle that we used to stop your interference—it’s a part of the architecture here. All we had to do was feed power into it to close this place against your allies while we tore it down from inside.”
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I believe this to be misunderstood information (I don't understand it to be honest, it's paradoxical). The Angels must have free will as we know it. They were able to revolt (and fall). Uriel was able to choose to lend his Grace to Michael knowing that there was a chance Michael would misuse it. All of the Fallen who do bad things were Angels.
I guess there could have been a change of some kind after the revolt and the angels are much more absolute (to the point of no free will) and unable to fall as long as they don't lend their grace out.
In that sense, yes, I guess you could say that angels have always had free will. However they have rules, if they break them they fall, most, not all, but most angels chose not to pay that kind of price.
I think Uriel was acting under orders when he loaned his Grace out. Maybe not to do that exact thing but to do whatever to insure the success of the mission. I also think Uriel as the angelic wet works man has more wiggle room than most, but still for him it was a huge risk.. Though Michael might be the only mortal man living on the planet that he'd take such a risk with.
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Also, not to be a downer but in Cold Days the magic is specifically described as mortal.
Not sure if it rules out the Grace theory definitively though.
The magic was performed by Merlin. The spells are like Harry's. But the fuel could be the Grace.
Just like Harry casting the spell at Mac's in CD. Or was his magic, and his spell, but it was juiced by the Winter Knight mantle. Same for his spells at the end of GP, where he used the power he consumed from the Nightmare to summon the ghosts.
I mean, when you think about a mortal creating a prison to hold gods, devils, and everything in between, he's kind of *got* to have some extra juice from somewhere to get it done. We're talking about spells in at least four dimensions, per Bob possibly more.
All I'm saying is he borrowed the Grace to get the place built, and then he put it in Alfred, who is the vessel of the ongoing Grace. He's effectively the Demon Binder.
And Mac made his decision and is out.
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The magic was performed by Merlin. The spells are like Harry's. But the fuel could be the Grace.
Just like Harry casting the spell at Mac's in CD. Or was his magic, and his spell, but it was juiced by the Winter Knight mantle. Same for his spells at the end of GP, where he used the power he consumed from the Nightmare to summon the ghosts.
I mean, when you think about a mortal creating a prison to hold gods, devils, and everything in between, he's kind of *got* to have some extra juice from somewhere to get it done. We're talking about spells in at least four dimensions, per Bob possibly more.
All I'm saying is he borrowed the Grace to get the place built, and then he put it in Alfred, who is the vessel of the ongoing Grace. He's effectively the Demon Binder.
And Mac made his decision and is out.
Yeah I agree that there is some sort of power source that's required. It could be all mortal magic doing the binding, but it's tied into a power generator to keep everything up and running.
There is the Ley line though that Rashid warned Harry about. That could be the power source. On the other hand I suspect that the ley line is actually something else. I think it's the prisoners power being siphoned off, and sent to somewhere else. Any power they try to exert is just redirected, leaving them powerless.
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There is the Ley line though that Rashid warned Harry about. That could be the power source. On the other hand I suspect that the ley line is actually something else. I think it's the prisoners power being siphoned off, and sent to somewhere else. Any power they try to exert is just redirected, leaving them powerless.
Or any attempt to siphon it off sends such a jolt of dark raw godlike power to who ever tries that it
forever changes the user and not in a good way. Though Rashid did leave it open that it was possible to use, but Harry ain't there yet... Hmmmm.... I wonder if Rashid tried at one time? And that is the grudge that the island has against him?
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Yeah I agree that there is some sort of power source that's required. It could be all mortal magic doing the binding, but it's tied into a power generator to keep everything up and running.
There is the Ley line though that Rashid warned Harry about. That could be the power source. On the other hand I suspect that the ley line is actually something else. I think it's the prisoners power being siphoned off, and sent to somewhere else. Any power they try to exert is just redirected, leaving them powerless.
I think it was in the books that the prison was the source, and it was the power being shunted away.
The argument has been made before that maybe the prison uses the prisoner's power and puts it through a filter to purify it and remove the taint in order to run itself, and the ley line is the concentrated runoff of evil. But that still doesn't explain how Merlin managed to create it in the first place. It still seems beyond something a mortal can do, even if they were the greatest practitioner of all time and had the Blackstaff and other bric-a-brac.
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I think it was in the books that the prison was the source, and it was the power being shunted away.
The argument has been made before that maybe the prison uses the prisoner's power and puts it through a filter to purify it and remove the taint in order to run itself, and the ley line is the concentrated runoff of evil. But that still doesn't explain how Merlin managed to create it in the first place. It still seems beyond something a mortal can do, even if they were the greatest practitioner of all time and had the Blackstaff and other bric-a-brac.
Yes, and no, I think let's go back to Rashid's warning to Harry. [bolding mine] Turn coat page 299
"First," he said, "do not tap into the power of this place's well. You are years away from being able to handle such a thing without being altered by it."
A couple of things might be gleaned from what he said, first he doesn't call it a ley line, he calls it a well. It goes back to what he first said, that the the power doesn't come from a ley line..
He says;
Turn Coat, page 298
He gave me a tight smile. "It wouldn't help you for me to say anything more---except one of your facts is incorrect. The ley line you speak of does not go through the island," he said. "This is where it wells up. The island is it's source."
So while he won't tell Harry what the source of the power is, I believe Rashid knows, and thinks it important that Harry at least understands that the source of the power was no ley line.
Then when he actually warns Harry not to use this power source, he also says,You are years away from being able to handle such a thing without being altered by it."
I take that to mean that Rashid is saying that Harry is neither ready or strong enough to use it now without being seriously altered by it, but he might be able to use it in the future if he has to without coming to harm.
When you read these two passages carefully what happens to Harry at the end of Battle Ground makes a lot more sense. The Senior Council knows Harry is Warden of Demonreach, they know what happened to the last Warden, Kemmler. I doubt they know Harry used the Spear as a power boost. So to pull off a binding and snatch a Titan back to the island, I'm thinking that many now think that Harry tapped into that power source, and is in danger of becoming another Kemmler. That is what scares them, not his association with Mab or the White Court.
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It's in Cold Days. According to Bob it's the body heat of the prisoners.
Griffyn612's idea is as good as any other. It could also be that the enchantments are fractal in nature or it could be that he repurposed something else that had already existed, despite what Bob says.
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It's in Cold Days. According to Bob it's the body heat of the prisoners.
Yes, but also in Cold Days Harry admits that Bob doesn't everything about everything, that example being Soul Fire. So Bob could be right about the body heat, but what if that very heat is what is up-welling from the island forming and powering the ley?
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Yes, but also in Cold Days Harry admits that Bob doesn't everything about everything, that example being Soul Fire. So Bob could be right about the body heat, but what if that very heat is what is up-welling from the island forming and powering the ley?
Yeah, prisoner BO is the source of the island's ley line. It was pretty much stated outright.
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I believe this to be misunderstood information (I don't understand it to be honest, it's paradoxical). The Angels must have free will as we know it. They were able to revolt (and fall). Uriel was able to choose to lend his Grace to Michael knowing that there was a chance Michael would misuse it. All of the Fallen who do bad things were Angels.
I guess there could have been a change of some kind after the revolt and the angels are much more absolute (to the point of no free will) and unable to fall as long as they don't lend their grace out.
iirc, they can still fall, thinking it was in Woj talking about how they still have the one big choice switch to flip?
But, that doesn't actually make sense by itself. It's like, they have absolute free will, but are not allowed to exercise it without being cosmically effected by their actions.
With all the Meta on older creatures being mad about humanity usurping, I'm thinking the lack of free will wasn't always a thing perhaps?
The fallen for instance, did they rebel against long standing orders, or did they actually rebel during a changing of the status quo they disagreed with?
The former would imply absolute free will (as long as it doesn't violate cosmic decree) while the later to me, implies they reacted with free will to orders they disagreed with and we're punished.. I suppose that equals the same thing though. Looking at similar cases... Ghosts who don't stay on their side of the line, who interfere with humans or feed on other ghost become corrupted. The Nags refused to leave when it was their time and became corrupted by it.
It seems, they all can chose, but not following rules on those choices has consequences..
Makes me want to reconsider free will vs agency to effect fate. Where in, free will is the ability to change what choices you'd make in an particular circumstance and agency is the ability to effect the fate of others without consequence, to effect the flow of time. Angels aren't supposed to do either right? But they do have A will, even if it isn't free to act.. (did Uriel make a choice to give Michael his grace, or was he changed from his interactions with mortals around Harry? 🤔 It's been implied Lash never got free will, she just borrowed some of Harry's personality/choices basically making the same one he makes a few books later, to die under their own circumstances rather than live as something they perceive to be monsterous)