Mab (?) in Twelve Months

[Mira]

Austria as a political entity got that name about 1000 years ago.  The first recorded use of the name was Ostarrīchi (ostar/Eastern rīcchi/Realm) in 996AD, when it was just a Margravate of a larger Duchy & a minor part of the Holy Roman Empire (not an independent nation per se)... but that's enough "Austria" that a sneaky author (like Jim) might IMO stretch the time out that far, if he wanted.  It's a long f'ing timeperiod to look for died-young composers; tho Mozart (died at 35) certainly looms large in any such list; and Schubert died even younger!

Not sure what the point is here with all due respect.  Mab still could have been Queen for a thousand years, still look young and pretty as a now mostly Fae.  Who knows what child baring age is for a Fae?  So Mozart or Schubert still could have sired her twins.

[g33k]

Not sure what the point is here with all due respect.  Mab still could have been Queen for a thousand years, still look young and pretty as a now mostly Fae.  Who knows what child baring age is for a Fae?  So Mozart or Schubert still could have sired her twins.

"Young and pretty" is irrelevant:  I could ask in return what your point is, there...?  My "point" was that you had asked/speculated about whether Mab's twins were born as Lady or Queen.

From the metaphysics of the situation, it's very possible IMO that the "Lady" cannot have sex & get pregnant.  The "Queen" IMO could become pregnant whenever she wants -- as an immortal, she's unaging.  The "child bearing age" I think begins as soon as she ascends from Lady, and ends when she ascends to the Crone.

I was addressing the historical question:  Mab was Winterqueen for almost the entirety of the existence of "Austria:"  there was no such named place, back when she was Winter Lady.

[Mira]

"Young and pretty" is irrelevant:  I could ask in return what your point is, there...?  My "point" was that you had asked/speculated about whether Mab's twins were born as Lady or Queen.

From the metaphysics of the situation, it's very possible IMO that the "Lady" cannot have sex & get pregnant.  The "Queen" IMO could become pregnant whenever she wants -- as an immortal, she's unaging.  The "child bearing age" I think begins as soon as she ascends from Lady, and ends when she ascends to the Crone.

I was addressing the historical question:  Mab was Winterqueen for almost the entirety of the existence of "Austria:"  there was no such named place, back when she was Winter Lady.

It has nothing to do with anything, point is, if only Queens can have sex with mortals and produce offspring, then if she had twins by an Austrian composer, it could be any number of them.  We tend to think of the most famous, but honestly people have been composing music for has long as there has been an Austria.

[Dina]

I am quite confused about this discussion. But I do agree that Mab, queen Mab, probably had Sarissa and Maeve around the time of Moazart or perhaps Strauss (one of them).

[Mira]

I am quite confused about this discussion. But I do agree that Mab, queen Mab, probably had Sarissa and Maeve around the time of Moazart or perhaps Strauss (one of them).

  Part of it is whether or not Mab could have been Queen for the last thousand years, was she a Lady before that, who did she displace because apparently Mother Winter has been around since before Mab or her predecessor.  Don't know if there is a fertility peroid for Fae Queens or not.  I agree that most likely the father of her twins is one of the ones named, but there have been composers since they started writing music.  I don't think there is any evidence that Mab is from what became Austria, so the length of time that Austria has been Austria really doesn't matter in my opinion.

[FlaggerX]

Maybe Jim was trying to stretch himself as a writer by doing something different than give the readers a typical Dresden Files novel ending, but it felt as if Jim might have written himself into a corner and came up with Mab offering Harry a boon as a cheat code to get out of the writer's trap he had stepped into.

That's how i see it.  But I've always seen Mab ultimately as an amoral force for good.  i noticed at her second appearance that every single thing the Winter Queen had ever demanded of Harry were things that needed doing, and said as much in the previous forum.  She's simply out to save this universe, and will do anything to do it.  The rage and combativeness in winter come from being chess pieces in a fight against heat death, and as it is a struggle to the death.   Harry is her agent in that struggle.

Still, there was no way for Harry to solve his contradictory problems so having Mab solve them for him makes sense. And because finding Justine could be a novel in itself.   

[g33k]

... or perhaps Strauss (one of them).

I don't think Strauss was Austrian...?
And certainly didn't "die young."

</nitpick>

Also, @Mira is 100% correct to note that there were innumerable "Austrian Composers" and it doesn't have to be one of the "Big Names."

Nevertheless, I think we should presume that it was indeed one of those Names (likely Mozart):
  (a) Jim clearly has someone particular in mind, and it's doubtful he'd delve into classical-music-minutiae to unearth  J. Random Niemand.  &:
  (b) Mozart isn't just "an" Austrian composer, he's widely held to be the greatest composer ever, with a deeper understanding of music, and grasp of "perfect" musical forms, than any other.  I myself am far too plebian to judge (or even understand) such claims; but that seems to be a common report by "people who know."

[Mira]

I don't think Strauss was Austrian...?
And certainly didn't "die young."

Dina is correct, she said,"one of the Strasses was Austrian," Johan was, he was born in Vienna, Richard wasn't, he was born in Germany.  I don't think Jim has stipulated that the composer who was the father died young.  However I am not up on WOJs.

Nevertheless, I think we should presume that it was indeed one of those Names (likely Mozart):
  (a) Jim clearly has someone particular in mind, and it's doubtful he'd delve into classical-music-minutiae to unearth  J. Random Niemand.  &:
  (b) Mozart isn't just "an" Austrian composer, he's widely held to be the greatest composer ever, with a deeper understanding of music, and grasp of "perfect" musical forms, than any other.  I myself am far too plebian to judge (or even understand) such claims; but that seems to be a common report by "people who know."ftp://

If he did, why didn't Jim name him?  Austria has had more than one composer of note, great ones, however it doesn't mean that Mab would choose one of them to be her lover.  While I won't argue against the greatness of Mozart, that is still a matter of opinion even among experts, whether he is the greatest or not, depending on whatever aspect of composing, era, style, tastes, experts in the know are arguing.

[Dina]

I did not even think in Richard Strauss. I thought in the two most famous Johann Strauss (there is apparently a third one I am not familiar with). I think both Johannes were born in the Austro-hungarian empire, and I think that would count as "Austria" for a casual mention. Also, I believe the most probable candidate is Mozart because when you mention an Austrian composer he is the first one many people will think about. And because everyone says he was so gifted that, well, perhaps he was inspired by Fae, like Lea.
All that aside, I believe Mab has been Queen for at least several centuries. At least since Shakespeare, so she was Queen when Austria began existing.

[Mira]

I did not even think in Richard Strauss. I thought in the two most famous Johann Strauss (there is apparently a third one I am not familiar with). I think both Johannes were born in the Austro-hungarian empire, and I think that would count as "Austria" for a casual mention. Also, I believe the most probable candidate is Mozart because when you mention an Austrian composer he is the first one many people will think about. And because everyone says he was so gifted that, well, perhaps he was inspired by Fae, like Lea.
All that aside, I believe Mab has been Queen for at least several centuries. At least since Shakespeare, so she was Queen when Austria began existing.

You are correct Dina, and I think it's a toss up because while it is true that Mozart is who we think about when we think great composers, it is , Strauss, the older and the younger, when we think waltz, romance, and Vienna. Mab in love might have inspired them..

[g33k]

...  But I've always seen Mab ultimately as an amoral force for good ...

Say rather, Mab is an amoral force fighting for the survival of Creation.
Mab would not do anything only "because it's good" -- only to advance her singular cause.

Now... that cause is, in itself, "good" to be sure!  But Mab ... kind of doesn't care that's it's "good."  It's just what she does, who she is:  Queen of Winter, Defender of Creation against the Outsiders.  Other "good" things are ... largely irrelevant.

I'm pretty sure she's an "end justifies the means" kind of girlie; she will readily do "evil" to advance her cause (unless she thinks there's a "Big Picture" reason that evil-doing would harm her cause).  She would cheerfully stretch every one of Molly's siblings across her Stone Table and bleed them out one by one, if it served her cause better than their continued survival (I cannot imagine how it would do so).

[g33k]

... I don't think Jim has stipulated that the composer who was the father died young.  However I am not up on WOJs.

The exact quote -- and the only one I know of, though he may have dropped new tibits since -- is from an AMA in 2014:

Of particular interest – Maeve and Sarissa, were they actually Mab’s kids (biological sense)? If so, who was Mab’s baby daddy?
Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters.
Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.

^{-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/}
Derived from here:
_{-- https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50771.5/wap2.html}


@Serack (or whomever) is no longer transcribing & collecting Jim's AMA's and signing-events &c (or at least, not that I know of).  So, in some newer repository maybe <crossing the streams> the truth is out there. </streamcross>

... If he did, why didn't Jim name him?

God only knows!  Well, God and Jim Butcher, presumably.
But we notice that Jim does seem to love dropping clues & fantheory-fodder... I presume this is another instance of that.

... Austria has had more than one composer of note, great ones, however it doesn't mean that Mab would choose one of them to be her lover ...

I would argue that Mab would only choose someone of "great talent" (even if a lesser-known one to mortals).  Maybe a genius produced only a few pieces -- or just one -- before dying; if it was of sufficient genius, it may have caught Mab's attention (even though our history books note him as just a minor figure).

Via Google, I see there was a reddit thread whose majority seems to have decided "Mozart too obvi, gotta be Schubert!"  Which... c'mon, man, Schubert ain't chopped liver!  If "obvious" is a reason to discount someone, better discount Schubert too!

HOWEVER:  there is this little piece by Schubert:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS91p-vmSf0
(just sayin')

But your core point remains valid, Mira:  could be some minor-footnote guy; could be an "Anonymous," name unknown to modern musicology.  We don't know, we have no proof one way or the other.

[Mira]

  Both Shurbert and Mozart died "young" by our standards, however I recently watched a documentary about Mozart, saying that actually he didn't die young by the standards of the time.

The same documentary speculated that Mozart might have died from rheumatic fever as a complication from a strep throat infection that was epidemic at the time.  I just checked on Shurbert, his health wasn't the best but he died apparently from typhoid, not uncommon at a time when contaminated water was very common. 

Now it might not make much difference to Mab, but supposedly Mozart was happily married, while Shurbert apparently was a shy man who never married.