True Love's Protection

[Mira]

But only sex with the loved one can seal True Love, right?

 I don't think that's been spelled out, but sex with another can ruin it.  Before he fell in love with her Thomas did have sex with Justine because that's when he fed off of her.  However once there was true love between them it was mentioned more than once, specifically I remember a rubber suit of some sort Justine was wearing so she and Thomas could snuggle without him burning her.

So it's hard to say.

[Dina]

But that is what I meant. It has been clearly established but in order to have True Love protection you need to be very, very, very in love with someone who loves you in return AND have sex with that person. That is when you got the Protection achievement. Then, if you have sex with someone else, willingly or not, that is broken. I imagine if you just stopped loving someone or get in love with someone else, that breaks the protection too.
That is why is so difficult to explain what happened to Harry's protection, he was protected in BG. Then he is not. Murphy died, but that is never given as an explanation for the protection breaking, and Harry clearly did not sex with everyone unless he did it and forgot (not the first time it would happen in the show) or stopped loving Murphy. That is why Mab explained the thing about Harry not feeling worthy and being guilty and all that. And...that is what many of us don't like.

[Mira]

That is why is so difficult to explain what happened to Harry's protection, he was protected in BG. Then he is not. Murphy died, but that is never given as an explanation for the protection breaking, and Harry clearly did not sex with everyone unless he did it and forgot (not the first time it would happen in the show) or stopped loving Murphy. That is why Mab explained the thing about Harry not feeling worthy and being guilty and all that. And...that is what many of us don't like.

Yes, while Harry may fully have loved Murphy, she loved him, but may still have had some reservations, maybe going back to Proven Guilty when she turned him down the first time.  The reason I say this is Mab sort of hedged as well.  While no, she didn't say Murphy didn't love him, her answer to Harry when he asked was, "perhaps."  Then she says she couldn't see into that part of Murphy's mind, but do you really believe that?  I don't, and while Mab cannot directly lie, she can deceive or hedge.  The clincher is when she tells Harry that Murphy made her own decisions and her own woman.  So I think that Mab didn't want to outright upset her Knight or argue with him because her object is to get him together with Lara, so she came up with her vague explanation and answered with a "perhaps." 

[Dina]

I would agree, but Harry burnt Lara in PT/BG.

[Bad Alias]

Yeah. Whatever True Love is in the Dresden Files, Harry and Murphy had it.

[Mira]

Yeah. Whatever True Love is in the Dresden Files, Harry and Murphy had it.

And it faded very quickly..

[Bad Alias]

And it faded very quickly..

Yep. I think most of the posts here are people arguing with what we see in the books because it's not what we thought it was. What happened in 12 Months isn't inconsistent with anything we've read in the Dresden Files or anything I've seen Jim say elsewhere.

Did I think True Love Protection could be broken by death and/or depression (perhaps a very specific kind of depression)? No. Can I find anything in the books to say otherwise? Also no. And I tried.

[Dina]

I need to reread 12months yet. Was Lara afraid of burning in 12M? If she isn't , we can safely say that True Love is broken by death of the person you loved. If Lara was still worried about burning, even after Murphy's death, then we know death alone cannot destroy True Love.

[Bad Alias]

I need to reread 12months yet. Was Lara afraid of burning in 12M? If she isn't , we can safely say that True Love is broken by death of the person you loved. If Lara was still worried about burning, even after Murphy's death, then we know death alone cannot destroy True Love.

She seemed to be on their first date, but not on the Halloween date.

[Mira]

Yep. I think most of the posts here are people arguing with what we see in the books because it's not what we thought it was. What happened in 12 Months isn't inconsistent with anything we've read in the Dresden Files or anything I've seen Jim say elsewhere.

Did I think True Love Protection could be broken by death and/or depression (perhaps a very specific kind of depression)? No. Can I find anything in the books to say otherwise? Also no. And I tried.

The thing is, all that was needed was a one night stand for Harry and all this debate would be unnecessary.  Yes, it can happen to even a grieving guy who had just lost his true love.  Harry has been drinking a bit of late, his body still responds to stimuli like any other normal male body.  All Jim had to do is have one of guys from the Bean Army or even staying at the castle talk Harry into going to a bar with them.  Harry drinks more than he should, hooks up for one night with an attractive lady, who might even look a bit like Murphy.  Poof, protection gone!  Also add one more thing for Harry to feel guilty about, when he shouldn't!

Oh and it could have been something Mab set up to make sure there were no obstacles to Harry and Lara getting together.  She won't tell Harry about it either until much later.

[Dina]

Yes, I considered Harry could have been mind-wiped.

[Mira]

Yes, I considered Harry could have been mind-wiped.

I don't think mind-wiped would have worked with true love, but that's a good question.  Would mind wiping have taken away his protection? 

[Dina]

No, I meant mind-wiped into not remembering that he had sex with someone else.

[Lord Kinbote]

  We all know that true love burns a White Court Vampire, that true love before the first feeding can block or kill the Hunger Demon, who happens to be an Outsider all together. Why?  That never has been fully explained.

I'll be surprised if we get any explanation that's satisfying.  Well, beyond a long internal monologue by Dresden that rests on a foundation built on a reading of 'All You Need is Love.'  I'm not expecting the readers will get anything close to an explanation of how the universe Butcher has built all works and comes together logically (even one that's at the descriptive/predictive/Newton level and not at the fundamental/'why does it work that way' level). 

After Twelve Months, I have a creeping feeling that the conclusion of the Dresden Files will reveal that the entire series was 'True Love Conquers the Outsiders.'  If that's all there is, then let's just keep reading and hope for a rollicking, enjoyable remainder for this yarn even if at the end we're left with a lot of Lost-esque unresolved loose threads.

[Mira]

No, I meant mind-wiped into not remembering that he had sex with someone else.

I know what you meant, and yes, I can see Mab being capable of that.